The Debate Thread

[JayHawk]

Well actually having a congress that does even half the work of a regular congress would be nice. Hopefully this time around since they can not pin lack of achievement on Obama again since he wont be running the republicans may actually do something for the american people.

[Kulindahr]

Unless they live in underdeveloped Rural areas I find it hard to believe their Local Wal-Mart and Fast Food Chains are not hiring...When your 2yr unemployment benefits have run out then you have no other choice but to except employment from wherever you can find it....Case closed...

They're not hiring here because there aren't many with money to spend on such frivolities. And those who have run out of unemployment benefits can't get hired because there aren't any jobs.

No income means you're not a customer. If you're not a customer, businesses aren't making any money off you, so they don't hire. When they don't hire, people don't earn and can't be customers. Businesses close, making more people without income.
It's a process that feeds on itself. If the Republicans hadn't blocked the jobs bills Obama wanted, it would be feeding less because there would be four million more jobs.

[MisterMajestic]

^^^So what is your States unemployment rate? Don't you live in a rural area, are you employed?

If you know people who have used up their unemployment benefits and are unable to find work locally, then how are they paying their bills? Have they moved in with relatives/friends, moved to the City to search for work? How are they making it?

This shouldnt be a Trivia question if you know these people......Simply saying they just exist day to day is not gonna cut it.

[Benvolio]

^^^So what is your States unemployment rate? Don't you live in a rural area, are you employed?

If you know people who have used up their unemployment benefits and are unable to find work locally, then how are they paying their bills? Have they moved in with relatives/friends, moved to the City to search for work? How are they making it?

This shouldnt be a Trivia question if you know these people......Simply saying they just exist day to day is not gonna cut it.

Surely you agree we should stop bringing in millions of immigrants? Nah immigrants are always most importanr to you liberals.

[chance1]

^^^So what is your States unemployment rate? Don't you live in a rural area, are you employed?

If you know people who have used up their unemployment benefits and are unable to find work locally, then how are they paying their bills? Have they moved in with relatives/friends, moved to the City to search for work? How are they making it?

This shouldnt be a Trivia question if you know these people......Simply saying they just exist day to day is not gonna cut it.

not sure who you're talking to MM

for me, a lot of my friends and friends of friends out of work had good paying jobs - on Wall St. or in ad sales - they've had some level of success already and thus find themselves losing a lot of income - some with mortgages and families - the jobs they're looking at for the most part are not as well paying - some have accepted that - others are still aiming high

they're using savings - 401K's - plus

not a pretty picture

NY UE is higher than the national avg. - last I saw it was in the low 9's - a full point above

in advertising sales, many companies are hirer very junior people - paying them 1/2 of people they've let go

once they do that - and the money is then budgeted lower, it's very hard to get the budget back to the original level

i was out for a couple mos. - used some savings - UE didn't even cover my rent

i was lucky in that i kept digging and networking and was able to land something good - but being out is not good for the wallet or head

[centexfarmer]

not sure who you're talking to MM

for me, a lot of my friends and friends of friends out of work had good paying jobs - on Wall St. or in ad sales - they've had some level of success already and thus find themselves losing a lot of income - some with mortgages and families - the jobs they're looking at for the most part are not as well paying - some have accepted that - others are still aiming high

That's the "Global Economy."

Even during the Clinton Years one of my best friends lost his $100+ a year IT job to India due to outsourcing.

He might have been a 'statistic' except the fact that he was also one of my room mates in a 3,000 square foot that I was counting on his "rent" to help me make my mortgage payment.

He took a job tending bar.

And not just any bar, but the type of bar that depending upon your view of "scat" depended upon what type of tip you got.

What's not truly being discussed here is the humility of it all.

Why should Americans keep "lowering the bar" to be considered a part of the "47%"?

they're using savings - 401K's - plus

not a pretty picture

Wow!

You mean to tell me that after 2008 your friends had anything left out of their 401k's to even cash in to pay their bills?

I personally lost $20,000 under G.W. Bush and still had to cash in my 401k plan, and TAKE THE TAX PENALTY for doing so.

I paid off all of debts, and still managed to maintain two residences.

And, laugh if you will, have never made more than $40,000 personally in my life in any given tax year.

To me?

Part of the problem is a small group of College Graduates (from any College) that found themselves with "jobs" after graduation where they could actually pay off their loans, now finding themselves WITHOUT jobs, and now blaming it on Obama.

WTFE!

My point?

If it's that bad amongst you and your college buddies, imagine how much worse it is amongst those with nothing more than Community College or Associate Degrees.

And urm...what is Romney/Ryan doing to address that demographic?

Oh...apparently we're "middle class" and we can't contribute to their campaigns so why should they really care?

NY UE is higher than the national avg. - last I saw it was in the low 9's - a full point above

in advertising sales, many companies are hirer very junior people - paying them 1/2 of people they've let go

once they do that - and the money is then budgeted lower, it's very hard to get the budget back to the original level

i was out for a couple mos. - used some savings - UE didn't even cover my rent

i was lucky in that i kept digging and networking and was able to land something good - but being out is not good for the wallet or head

Yeah!

Been there done that.

It SUCKS!

What I would like for you to understand is that between each "tax bracket' the experience is different.

For the ten people who work for me, they don't give one flying rats ass of how I became their boss.

Half of them can't even keep their cellphone bills paid up for me to contact them to let them know what their schedule to work is for next week.

That's REALITY!

That's the shit that neither party candidates for POTUS want to talk about.

But THE MOST IMPORTANT topics about the debates are 'body language' and 'water gulping,' and the rest of us wonder why no one is serious about this?



I feel the need to shave my balls because the only personal debt that I owe is to the bank that holds the loan to my second residence.

AND be able to sleep tonight knowing that I still paid MORE LAST YEAR, and the upcoming Tax Year, MORE FUCKING TAXES than Mitt Romney has paid in the last TWO YEARS (in income v. percentage rates)!

And I'm going to vote for him WHY?

Your friends are going to vote for him why?

[Benvolio]

The main reason Romney pays at.a lower rate is because he gives millions to charity. Logically the rate he pays is irrelevant to your vote. Doy really believe your taxes will be lower under Obama? If you are concerned about lower and declining wages, why cannot you see the effect of our massive importation of millions of immigrants, willing to work cheap.

[GiancarloC]

I really hope democrat states stop flipping the bill for some of the republican ones (referring to that chart one posted showing how the greatest amount of federal dollars are spent in republican states. California appears to rank 43th. We don't get very little help... yet this state constantly flips the bill for others... and we have budget problems.


(Thanks to JayHawk)

So we're giving more into the federal system then we are giving and this money is going to states like Georgia and Utah?

Benvolio, wrong again. It has nothing to do with the "massive importation of millions of immigrants". Many of those jobs aren't even on the official payrolls and are off the books. Immigrants certainly aren't filling outsourced jobs... Chinese and Indians are... but not even in this country. You can thank Mitt Fucking Romney for part of that.

[Kulindahr]

^^^So what is your States unemployment rate? Don't you live in a rural area, are you employed?

If you know people who have used up their unemployment benefits and are unable to find work locally, then how are they paying their bills? Have they moved in with relatives/friends, moved to the City to search for work? How are they making it?

This shouldn't be a Trivia question if you know these people......Simply saying they just exist day to day is not gonna cut it.

Our county's unemployment rate finally got down to 12%. It would be 16% except a lot of people have moved away, especially those who lost their homes.

One guy I know is squatting in a house with an absentee landlord. Another is living in a large freight box in the woods; another in a tent not too far away. One family has moved in with a brother; the landlord is ignoring the tenant laws by allowing twice as many people in the apartment as the law says.

Another just got a job, because a position opened when the former guy was drunk on the job and sort of ruined some equipment.

Bills? If you live in the woods, bill collectors can't find you; there are also deer to poach.

[bw92116]

I'm not sure why they're calling New Mexico a red state; it did go to Bush in 2004 but went to Obama in 2008. And leaning to Obama now.

By the way, Oct. 14: ABC/WaPo poll: Obama 49/Romney 46 (Likely voters). Swing States Obama 51/Romney 46.

[GiancarloC]

Well even Nevada is a swing state... it leans democrat though...

[bw92116]

I don't think it's a sure thing for either side at this point. The final 2 debates might change things a little, depending on what happens. But I don't think they will change things a lot. It's pretty close to a tie right now, in the popular vote at least. A lot of the result will hang on turnout and which side can get a better turnout.

[Benvolio]

I was responding to mister majestics description of the plight of people unable to find work. How can caring people fail to object to the constant influx of more unemployed immigrants competing with Americans for scarce jobs? Why do immigrants trump Americans?

[GiancarloC]

Immigrants trump Americans...? You know what? I think everyone needs to be treated equally because they are all human beings. Stop viewing immigrants as sub-human. I am an immigrant. I was not born in this country... but I still contribute to this country. Show some f-king respect.

http://www.timesunion.com/news/artic...es-3504367.php (2012)
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...ry-report.html (2010)

Immigration has been in decline for several years now.

And using that logic... apparently George W. Bush was more then welcoming of immigrants as the immigration rate was the highest under his administration... it declined under Obama.

[Benvolio]

Why should immigrants be allowed to come in and take jobs when tens of millions of Americans cannot get work? Why do you think Americans Re sub human, and less worthy the immigrants of jobs.
It is offensive that immigrants tend to vote for high taxes on Americans to finance welfare programs and health care for immigrants.

[GiancarloC]

Immigrants are taking jobs many Americans don't want to do. I don't think Americans are sub human. I said real fucking clearly that EVERYONE is a HUMAN BEING and needs to be treated equally.

Immigrants tend to vote for high taxes on American? So immigrants vote republican? Mitt Romney is proposing an average of $5,000 increase on middle class Americans and their families.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-middle-class/

http://reason.com/blog/2012/10/15/do...an-math-add-up

In fact Mitt Romney's tax plan would increase taxes on the middle class and lower classes (many of which ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS) and cut taxes for the rich (those who make up a fraction of this country).

Why does Mitt Romney view those in the lower and middle classes as being sub-human?

Oh and as an immigrant I take to direct offensive to your comments on immigrants. I am an American citizen, and I vote for the best interests of this country... something the republicans don't have in mind.

[Kulindahr]

Someone seems to be forgetting a basic premise of America:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal...."

[Benvolio]

Someone seems to be forgetting a basic premise of America:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal...."

Non citizens outside the US have absolutely no right to come to America to take jobs from Americans. It has never been a question of equality vel non. It is a matter of the government intentionally harming Americans by flooding the country with people willing to work cheap and forcing Americans to compete at the lowest level. It is false that immigrants only take jobs no one else wants. Go back to mister majestics ost 553. He was talking about Americans with nothing after losing unemployment benefits. I was responding to him.

[GiancarloC]

Non citizens outside the US have absolutely no right to come to America to take jobs from Americans. It has never been a question of equality vel non.

Oh really? So you would kick me out of the country even though I am a citizen? People have a right to come in here, become a citizen or get their papers and have a job.

It is a matter of the government intentionally harming Americans by flooding the country with people willing to work cheap and forcing Americans to compete at the lowest level. It is false that immigrants only take jobs no one else wants. Go back to mister majestics ost 553. He was talking about Americans with nothing after losing unemployment benefits. I was responding to him.

Talk about ignoring ALL SOURCES I posted. Come back with some sources to debunk what I said... either way, that argument has failed.

When one says a claim is false they NEED TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE. Or else they DO NOT have a case.

[Benvolio]

Read again. I said non citizens outside the US have no right to come. You are here and a citizen. I accept your word on that. It is absurd, wrong, and evil to say, as you do, that eveyone in the world has the right to come and take jobs from Americans.

[GiancarloC]

That argument is absolutely false. They do have a right to come through legal processes. I never said anything about anyone taking jobs from Americans. They do come here to do jobs many wouldn't do.

[bankside]

Has it occurred to anyone that immigrants are capable of more than just taking jobs away from Americans. They are capable of creating jobs for Americans too. Oh and all those jobs they do have come to be filled by immigrants all the time not because of a foreign plot but because Americans can't do those jobs or don't want to.

Finally in a truly free market capitalist society, a business owner would always be able to hire whomever he wants to fill the job regardless of nationality. Are you sure about the merits of a government social program designed to reserve jobs for a special interest group of people who happen to be US citizens when all a Wealth Creator™ wants to do is hire the best person for the job? Without some government bureaucrat breathing down his neck about costly and expensive priveleged hiring forced to be granted to citizens by an overreaching intrusive socialistic government? Let business free! Let them hire who they want, American or not!

[bw92116]

Are you willing to spend all day hunched over picking strawberries for minimum wage and no benefits?

[Benvolio]

OK, but you must stop pretending to care how many poor and unemployed we have. No, CG the process does not give every the right to come. About a million a year are allowed, but it is not a right. Previously you said they have theright to jobs. If immigrants have a right to jobs then some Americans are shoved aside.

[GiancarloC]

I think I and others on the left care far more about the poor in this case. Republicans have halted numerous bills that would have created millions of jobs especially related to small businesses. I've stated articles showing a decline in immigration for several years now. This is fact. Americans aren't being shoved aside. That's an emotional argument that carries NO weight. Is there a proper counterargument?

[Benvolio]

Any decline in immigration is irrelevant to the fact that it continues in large numbers, and yes, they either take jobs, or commit crimes, or collect welfare. Sure, a few scientists and Doctors are helpful, but most ate not. You must stop pretending to care about the poor and unemployed when you argue that the immigrants have a right to to jobs when millions of Americans are unemployed.

[GiancarloC]

Prove it... or there is no real counter-argument there. Constantly people have asked for evidence and none have been provided. I'm not pretending to be anything. I do care about the poor... immigrants do have a right to get a job. I'm not pushing anyone aside.

[Benvolio]

It ia total nonsense to say that immigrants are not taking jobs from Americans. When is the last time you met an American taxi driver, or saw an American doing construction. I can remember when Americans raised families driving taxis or doing construction. They take cooking jobs that Americans would do, and waiters, janitors, etc. It is monstrous lie that Americans would not do the jobs.

[GiancarloC]

Again, one can claim that my argument is nonsense, but when there is no proof that anti-immigrant argument is a FAILURE. Weak anecdotal statements are not evidence.

[Kulindahr]

Has it occurred to anyone that immigrants are capable of more than just taking jobs away from Americans. They are capable of creating jobs for Americans too. Oh and all those jobs they do have come to be filled by immigrants all the time not because of a foreign plot but because Americans can't do those jobs or don't want to.

I've tried pointing that out. It's like the Cubans in south Florida: most of them arrived with nothing at all, yet they built an economy that not only employed all of their own people but drew "gringos" from elsewhere to fill jobs.

Finally in a truly free market capitalist society, a business owner would always be able to hire whomever he wants to fill the job regardless of nationality. Are you sure about the merits of a government social program designed to reserve jobs for a special interest group of people who happen to be US citizens when all a Wealth Creator™ wants to do is hire the best person for the job? Without some government bureaucrat breathing down his neck about costly and expensive priveleged hiring forced to be granted to citizens by an overreaching intrusive socialistic government? Let business free! Let them hire who they want, American or not!

Absolutely. When someone wants businesses to have power but calls for limiting the employment pool to "our kind", it's called fascism. Fascism has little to do with free markets or liberty.

[Kulindahr]

GC, you're arguing with someone who doesn't understand economics, or democracy, or freedom, or rights.

To move and go where you wish is a basic human right. Yes, we've restricted it for some time now, but that doesn't do away with it.
Oh -- about caring about the poor: if you restrict your caring to just your kind, you've become a tribalist -- and if you're a tribalist, there's no argument at all against caring via government programs.

[ReadyWithReadyWit]

It ia total nonsense to say that immigrants are not taking jobs from Americans. When is the last time you met an American taxi driver, or saw an American doing construction. I can remember when Americans raised families driving taxis or doing construction. They take cooking jobs that Americans would do, and waiters, janitors, etc. It is monstrous lie that Americans would not do the jobs.

Oh, by the way, Ben... you must be excited for the upcoming debate, huh? As there is one issue that has gone ominously unmentioned thus far.. that's right... your favorite (aka only issue) is bound to come up... are you ready for the likely pivot that is about to happen? Don't get too disillusioned... I might be wrong...

[JayHawk]

I see baseless troll like responses have derailed the thread. Thank you Kuli for starting a clean slate without the pointless purse fight over a person racist belief system.