The Debate Thread

[GiancarloC]

Nate Silver gets his info from the Obama Campaign. He's sold his soul to work for the NYT.

And the counter proof to my argument is?

Oh wait... that's right. None.

Nate Silver is rarely wrong. And Politifact is non-partisan and they are very balanced. The new darling Paul Ryan was torn apart by the facts... and the fact checkers tore apart his argument.

[Kulindahr]

One glaring thing I just thought of -- Biden said the administration was not aware of any requests for more security before the September 11th attacks.

He lied.

I hope the press pushes him on this -- but I have my doubts.

Those wouldn't have necessarily even reached Hillary.

[Kulindahr]

Interesting what you call a lie.

Truth doesn't come into play ... does it?

I gave you truth.

I suppose truth doesn't come into play, because you and Benvolio and company ignore it.

[Kulindahr]

Politifact would do better if it wasn't so selective in choosing what to look at -- Biden lied many times including his yes votes on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, requirements of religious institutions to provide contraceptive and abortion services, knowledge of what happened in Libya -- none of which were called into question on Politifact.

Biden didn't lie about those -- he described the letter of the law. Ryan and those who believe him are going on emotion, not fact.

[chance1]

Last week the Republicans argued that the first debate was a "game changer" and that Romney's bounce from that debate would propel him to victory... now they're saying "debates are moments in time and post debate blather is not likely to change people's perceptions..." First a debate is an earth-shaking incident... now a debate is meaningless... ha ha ha!

not sure what you're talking about

the first debate WAS a game changer - 6 points worth

people saw and heard with THEIR OWN eyes/ears - not thru the Obama lens

Obama and his stooges did the week after "he's a liar" play and guess what ............ not received well

he and his campaign are mr. negative and the public is tired of it

this debate at best for the dems is a wash - look at the polls

the only reason biden's behavior was acceptable was because obama was mute a week ago - on average they're normal

independently a freak show

[Kulindahr]

Obama and his stooges did the week after "he's a liar" play and guess what ............ not received well

he and his campaign are mr. negative and the public is tired of it

It's a tragic day for the Republic when a debater can "win" and no one wants to hear that he didn't tell the truth.

[GiancarloC]

not sure what you're talking about

the first debate WAS a game changer - 6 points worth

Other polls show a 2-3% change at best within the margin of error. NAte Silver brought that up... it was't that big of a change and some of the gains have evaporated. Not a game changer.

the only reason biden's behavior was acceptable was because obama was mute a week ago - on average they're normal

independently a freak show

Oh puh-lease. That's not true at all. Romney disrespected the moderator and Obama numerous times. If one wants substance and reality, Romney/Ryan isn't the ticket. People had some initial enthusiasm but it is eroding.

The real freak show is the Romney/Ryan lying ticket. And many know they are lying. So if one thinks a debate is a game changer... lmao... I pity them.

Nice try though.

[FuryOfFirestorm]

One glaring thing I just thought of -- Biden said the administration was not aware of any requests for more security before the September 11th attacks.

He lied.

I hope the press pushes him on this -- but I have my doubts.

From the Foreign Policy website:

"The State Department security officials who testified before House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa's panel Wednesday never said they had made their requests to the president, Rhodes pointed out. That would be natural because the State Department is responsible for diplomatic security, not the White House , he said. Rhodes also pointed out that the officials were requesting more security in Tripoli, not Benghazi ."

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/po...ghazi_security

[FuryOfFirestorm]

For the "oh so very concerned but surprisingly silent while Bush was in office" crowd:

[Quote removed by moderator] © 2012 Media Matters for America. All rights reserved.

Original Source Link (added by moderator): http://mediamatters.org/research/201...-bash-o/189890

There's a whole lot more dead that you don't give a fuck about. The only reason you care now is you're making political hay over the deaths of an American, a death that Mitt was overjoyed to see happen.

[Sammie13]

It's a tragic day for the Republic when a debater can "win" and no one wants to hear that he didn't tell the truth.

Very well said, Kuli. Obama was horrible last week...no doubt about it; however, Romney re-inventing his own policies "moderate Mitt-style" should be addressed. Being a dreadful debater does not mean Obama policiies are wrong...it means he debated poorly. That's like if QB Tom Brady has a dreadful game this week, why the hell would you fire him? Romney won on style...yes, indeed...he had passion and he 'sounded' like he had his act together, but history matters...and his history contradicts the beliefs he so passionately communicated last week. The country needs to know that.

[GiancarloC]

Sammie, I think Obama will have a much better next time. As one said... this was a bait situation... and republicans fell for it. I think Biden was just a preview of what is to come.

Fury, Thanks for that source on the Libya issue. It just goes to show the argument that Obama is at fault carries no weight. I've copied and pasted it into a text file for future reference.

[chance1]

Very well said, Kuli. Obama was horrible last week...no doubt about it; however, Romney re-inventing his own policies "moderate Mitt-style" should be addressed. Being a dreadful debater does not mean Obama policiies are wrong...it means he debated poorly. That's like if QB Tom Brady has a dreadful game this week, why the hell would you fire him? Romney won on style...yes, indeed...he had passion and he 'sounded' like he had his act together, but history matters...and his history contradicts the beliefs he so passionately communicated last week. The country needs to know that.

speech is all he has

if he can't do that ........

he can't talk about his policies - cuz they're not working

he has not plans to jump start the economy

raising taxes on the "super wealthy" which is what joe biden referred to those making 250k ....... is not the answer

it's not even a start

mitt is a moderate - that's how he governed massachusetts

that's how he got elected in the most liberal state in the country

obama's presidency is a failure and if it wasn't he'd be way ahead

but it is so he isn't

obama is no tom brady - LOL

more like mark sanchez

[Kulindahr]

he can't talk about his policies - cuz they're not working

he has not plans to jump start the economy

After all this time, you still ignore facts.

Obama had plans to jumpstart the economy. He backed bills to create at least two million jobs in the private sector. He urged a program to let talented foreign students who had shown they could create American jobs to stay.

The problem is that the Republicans are so greedy for power that they vote against the American people over and over. Obama's policies aren't "not working" -- the Republicans won't let them be tried, probably because they know those policies would work, and they don't want Obama getting any credit.

raising taxes on the "super wealthy" which is what joe biden referred to those making 250k ....... is not the answer

it's not even a start

Of course it's a start -- patriotic Republicans like Eisenhower and Reagan knew it was a start.

I do disagree with the cutoff, though those making 250k+ should be required to go back to Reagan tax rates. We need a new bracket above them, for those making $550k+, at ten points higher than those at $250k, and another for those making $1mn or more, at another ten percent higher -- with that extra revenue dedicated to repairing bridges on our national highways.

[GiancarloC]

I often ask... how is Obamas Presidency a failure? How so? What have the republicans suggested to help this country besides the same old platitudes and generalities? Nothing. Mitt isn't a moderate. He hasn't been one for several years. But then again you won't really know because he's too busy flip flopping and lying. And his record in Massachusetts was a pile of garbage. I think people learned their lesson there. You want a better economy? Don't elect Romney.

[AngolaZee]

The issue being downplayed here is how the Republicans have done everything they can to sabotage the Obama presidency even resulting in the credit rating being downgraded. Why would anyone with a full functioning brain want to derail Obamacare?

Because they don't want Obama to get credit for the good results his policies would achieve. If Obama wins the 2nd term and the economy improves it would be hard for the Republicans to have a chance at the Presidency. Republicans know very well that recessions are cyclical so one way or another the economy HAS to improve they just don't want it to improve with Obama in the office because they want to paint him as an ineffective president.

[MikeyLove]

The issue being downplayed here is how the Republicans have done everything they can to sabotage the Obama presidency even resulting in the credit rating being downgraded. Why would anyone with a full functioning brain want to derail Obamacare?

Because they don't want Obama to get credit for the good results his policies would achieve. If Obama wins the 2nd term and the economy improves it would be hard for the Republicans to have a chance at the Presidency. Republicans know very well that recessions are cyclical so one way or another the economy HAS to improve they just don't want it to improve with Obama in the office because they want to paint him as an ineffective president.

...and they are covertly racists, as they didn't want an Black Person in Office, especially one that is smarter than they are.

[Sammie13]

speech is all he has

if he can't do that ........

he can't talk about his policies - cuz they're not working

he has not plans to jump start the economy

raising taxes on the "super wealthy" which is what joe biden referred to those making 250k ....... is not the answer

it's not even a start

mitt is a moderate - that's how he governed massachusetts

that's how he got elected in the most liberal state in the country

obama's presidency is a failure and if it wasn't he'd be way ahead

but it is so he isn't

obama is no tom brady - LOL

more like mark sanchez

Bush and the GOP spent 8 years creating this mess and I think the right thing to do is allow the Dems an equal amount of time to correct it. Plus, what a mess we would have un-doing ObamaCare.

And there is NO evidence that Moderate Mitt would be governing the US....in fact, I say no way...follow the money trail when you have questions....and the $ trail on the GOP is hardcore on social issues. They would NEVER allow Romney to be a moderate. As he started his swing to the left last week, you'll notice the 'right' bit their lips after all his debate economic moderation but a few days later when he slipped left on abortion, they shut his ass down pronto. His administration would be the same way.

And if Obama is Mark Sanchez, then Romney is Tim Tebow, slippery and shifty with a 'thank you, Jesus' but can't throw an accurate deep ball for the life of him.

[Spiff]

Before debates


Now

[Jack Springer]

...and they are covertly racists, as they didn't want an Black Person in Office, especially one that is smarter than they are.

Just because he can speak well off a teleprompter doesn't make him a good President.

The man has not nurtured any relationships with anyone from Congress including people from his own party. He hasn't a clue on how to get along with people.

Using the racist card should be as limited as using the nazi card.

[Jack Springer]

I often ask... how is Obamas Presidency a failure? How so? .

Look at what progress has been made in the economy. That should answer your question.

We are in one hell of a mess right now -- heading off a economic cliff. Another recession is within sight -- maybe one that will kill the world's economy.

Obama offers no leadership, no plan.

He campaigns. If he gets re-elected -- what will he do. He can't campaign anymore -- will he just play golf all the time?

Please point out an Obama economic plan to me. I'm not talking about the "union jobs bill" he's proposed either -- I'm talking about a real economic plan -- an idea.

[bw92116]

[JayHawk]

That is an amusing collection of GOP sheeple who are now all on the stump for Romney. The only GOPer I give credit to is someone like Jon Huntsman who said i didn't win and I wont endorse Romney... or a Crist who jumped ship because they took the L train to crazy town. All of these folks with no recollection of what they originally thought about Romney will not get my vote.

And yes pundits of the right who are digging ever so fervently to find anything to stand on...I realize Hillary said Obama was unprepared to lead when she was running. However unprepared to lead is a hell of a leap away from calling a person a liar.

I am gonna steal a line from Centex: "My pappy once told me, I would rather be in a room full of murders than one filled with liars and thieves cause at least i know what the murder is after"

[Kulindahr]

Why would anyone with a full functioning brain want to derail Obamacare?

Because it's a sell-out to corporations.

[GiancarloC]

Look at what progress has been made in the economy. That should answer your question.

Misfire. The economy is doing fine and growing at steady levels with unemployment being lowered. I'll merely repeat what Biden said... there is clear progress being made.

We are in one hell of a mess right now -- heading off a economic cliff. Another recession is within sight -- maybe one that will kill the world's economy.

A platitude and fear mongering response... similar to what Ryan have used. The economy has the potential to grow significantly faster if republicans would stop killing pro-job bills, not the other way around. There is no recession in sight and there is no evidence to suggest there is one. Very few analysts agree with that assessment.

Obama offers no leadership, no plan.

Uh huh, and what exactly does Romney and Ryan offer? No plans. No leadership. One of the shittest job creation records of a Governor... yes, that's Mitt Romney's record. This administration has helped steer this country away from recession, lowered unemployment steadily (though it could have been faster, if republicans stop holding up pro-job bills), and kept it out of recession.

He campaigns. If he gets re-elected -- what will he do. He can't campaign anymore -- will he just play golf all the time?

He doesn't play golf all the time. This President has taken less vacation time then the prior two. He'll lead this country back to prosperity and reduce unemployment even further. Mitt Romney presents an economic plan that is missing several key basics and simply doesn't add up. So sure, if one wants this country to spend $2 trillion extra on the military the Pentagon and military doesn't even want or need... then go ahead.

Romney's tax plan is a three-legged stool that doesn't stand. Here's how it works -- or doesn't. Romney wants to 1) cut tax rates across the board by 20 percent, 2) cut tax expenditures to pay for these tax cuts, and 3) maintain progressivity. The problem, as the Tax Policy Center pointed out, is there aren't enough tax expenditures for the rich to pay for all the tax cuts for the rich. Romney's plan only works if he cuts out the tax cuts for the rich, raises taxes on the middle class, or explodes the deficit. In other words, Romney can pick two, and only two, of his tax goals -- what Matt Yglesias of Slate calls the "Romney Trilemma".

Source: http://www.nationaljournal.com/2012-...dd-up-20121013

Flunk!

Please point out an Obama economic plan to me. I'm not talking about the "union jobs bill" he's proposed either -- I'm talking about a real economic plan -- an idea.

His economic plan was to continue creating jobs, helping the middle class by lowering taxes on them and lowering taxes on small business. And no HEDGE FUNDS don't count as small businesses. What is Romney's economic plan? I've asked for it and never got it. In fact, I had to state Romney's economic plan myself... and it's a fucking mess full of holes and falsehoods.

[Jack Springer]

I'm sorry that you've decided in your mind that the economy is great -- try telling that to the millions of Americans that are unemployed, under-employed, the people who have lost value in their savings and value of their houses.

Leaders have the ability to get things started and inspire people to do things -- Obama has not done that.

Continue to whine that the republicans have kept him for doing anything -- he had two years to do something about the economy and chose to back a mostly union plan of almost $1 trillion of shovel ready projects that he admitted himself later didn't exist.

I ask you again -- where is his plan for jump-starting the economy?

[GiancarloC]

I'm sorry that you've decided in your mind that the economy is great -- try telling that to the millions of Americans that are unemployed, under-employed, the people who have lost value in their savings and value of their houses.

I never said the economy was great. It's decent, but could be doing better. Again if the republicans would stop holding up pro-job and pro growth bills. By the way at this time I am under-employed but am working on that situation. And I sympathize with people who have lost their savings and value of houses because of the RECESSION THAT STARTED UNDER THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATION. This administration has saved thousands of families from losing their homes... and that's better then Mitt Romney wanting government to stay away and let people default on their mortgages. Obama stepped in and tried to help... that's better then the NO ACTION "plan" Mitt Romney has stated.

An article from a while ago during the primaries... but talks about Mitt Romney's "hand off" approach to housing (meaning no plan):
http://www.zillow.com/blog/2012-01-0...mes-to-housing

As to what to do for the housing industry specifically — and are there things that you can do to encourage housing? One is, don’t try and stop the foreclosure process,” said Romney. “Let it run its course and hit the bottom, allow investors to buy up homes, put renters in them, fix the homes up, and let it turn around and come back up.”

Yeah this his stupid plan.

Leaders have the ability to get things started and inspire people to do things -- Obama has not done that.

Oh but he has. And Biden stated several clear parts of his economic plan, including lowering taxes on the middle class and small businesses.

Continue to whine that the republicans have kept him for doing anything -- he had two years to do something about the economy and chose to back a mostly union plan of almost $1 trillion of shovel ready projects that he admitted himself later didn't exist.

The bail-outs have paid themselves back.

I ask you again -- where is his plan for jump-starting the economy?

I've already stated it. Where is Romney's plan? Oh wait that's right... it doesn't exist. Obama has provided the roadwork for better and continued growth... while Romney offers an economic plan that only promises for major job losses (4.5 million to be exact).

So why does one attack Obama's economic plan when the opponent doesn't have one that's worth a damn?

[chance1]

Bush and the GOP spent 8 years creating this mess and I think the right thing to do is allow the Dems an equal amount of time to correct it. Plus, what a mess we would have un-doing ObamaCare.

And there is NO evidence that Moderate Mitt would be governing the US....in fact, I say no way...follow the money trail when you have questions....and the $ trail on the GOP is hardcore on social issues. They would NEVER allow Romney to be a moderate. As he started his swing to the left last week, you'll notice the 'right' bit their lips after all his debate economic moderation but a few days later when he slipped left on abortion, they shut his ass down pronto. His administration would be the same way.

And if Obama is Mark Sanchez, then Romney is Tim Tebow, slippery and shifty with a 'thank you, Jesus' but can't throw an accurate deep ball for the life of him.

more Bush ........ sad

and I view Obama's first 3 almost 4 as a "sunk cost" - no sense in spending good money after bad

and I've never heard of an 8 year investment that wasn't predicated on evaluating the return in years 5-8

Obama's strategy is taxing the rich and borrowing more money to pay for entitlements that he has promised to his voting base

There is no end in sight with him

With Romney there is hope that his skill set will help get business moving again

It's clear - right or wrong - that business leaders do NOT support Obama and are NOT investing in this economy

Romney provides a glimmer of hope IMO economically

and on foreign policy, Obama is naive and wrong - the Middle East is a prime example

as for Sanchez/Tebow ........ funny but the real story is that Tebow will be the starter sooner vs. later - so it does sorta fit with a Romney electoral victory

back to the Debate:

+ 6 points in the polls for Romney pre vs. post debate

+ 6 points

as for Jay's "sheepies" ........ LOL

the biggest Obama backer hates him - Bill Clinton

don't decry party politics for one side w/o the other

[RazorzEdge88]

I wonder which will be lower: Tebow's completion percentage as a starter or Romney's average approval rating as President.

[JayHawk]

I have no clue how anyone in the united states of america could be so ignorant as to believe doing exactly what Bush did which encouraged the slowest growth in modern history BEFORE the collapse is going to work this time. Once again the rich have paid to paved the path to their pockets on the backs of the stupid.

Of course, that is all academic because Romney won't be President. He isnt winning Ohio and his poll number bump has already faded. So after Obama shows up to play in the next debate it is all over. That and we should expect whatever October surprise to arrive next week.

[chance1]

I have no clue how anyone in the united states of america could be so ignorant as to believe doing exactly what Bush did which encouraged the slowest growth in modern history BEFORE the collapse is going to work this time. Once again the rich have paid to paved the path to their pockets on the backs of the stupid.

Of course, that is all academic because Romney won't be President. He isnt winning Ohio and his poll number bump has already faded. So after Obama shows up to play in the next debate it is all over. That and we should expect whatever October surprise to arrive next week.

calling people ignorant (and stupid) is pretty fucking lame

and your "i'm sure of everything" is a close 2nd

so I'm calling you on your bullshit - as you would want

not sure why the current dem strategy is to call the other side liars and idiots

doesn't seem very big tent or strategic on any level

i don't see any fade - do tell

as for romney v. bush ...... i think romney runs circles around him as a biz man

and i could just as easily say that obama's "jimmy carter approach" is bad news - we know how that ended - but I won't

as for "the debate thread" ........

romney kicked obama's tail by an enormous margin

and ryan stood toe to toe with hamburgler joe - and joe lied about libya and he lied about the admin being lockstep with israel - how could that be when bibi said iran nuclear capability is imminent and joe saying "just calm down"

[GiancarloC]

Obama's strategy is taxing the rich and borrowing more money to pay for entitlements that he has promised to his voting base

It's funny there is actually no proof for the claim.

With Romney there is hope that his skill set will help get business moving again

It's clear - right or wrong - that business leaders do NOT support Obama and are NOT investing in this economy

Romney provides a glimmer of hope IMO economically

Absolutely not. His bogus economic and tax plan could cost this country millions of jobs and several people, myself included, have posted sources proving why. His tax plan is a three legged stool... and it doesn't stand.

and on foreign policy, Obama is naive and wrong - the Middle East is a prime example

This is a platitude. Again no proof.

+ 6 points in the polls for Romney pre vs. post debate

+ 6 points

Nope. That's one poll. According to others... 2.5-3.0%... within the margin of error. Moving right along. Romney's poll bump by the way has already started to erode.

[MisterMajestic]

I'm sorry that you've decided in your mind that the economy is great -- try telling that to the millions of Americans that are unemployed, under-employed,.

Jack I live in South Carolina where unemployment remains high. I don't know a SINGLE person that is unemployed. All of my family and friends work @ banks, Restaurants(including fast-food), Hospital facilities, Car dealerships, Cellular companies and companies that I can't remember right now....I was worried about MY Career last year but since the transition/merger that has passed....My co-workers that lost their jobs during the transition did so because their departments closed and they weren't qualified for other job-openings within the company...They did receive a severance package...I didnt know ALL of the people that were let go, but the co-workers that I socialized with outside of the job found work probably quicker than normal..I haven't known ANYONE that has been standing in the Unemployment line...

I simply find it interesting that we talk about the Unemployment rate 24/7 but most of us don't know a single Soul that is actually cashing an unemployment check....

How many of your Family members &/or friends receive unemployment benefits?

[Jack Springer]

I never said the economy was great. It's decent, but could be doing better. Again if the republicans would stop holding up pro-job and pro growth bills. By the way at this time I am under-employed but am working on that situation. And I sympathize with people who have lost their savings and value of houses because of the RECESSION THAT STARTED UNDER THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATION. This administration has saved thousands of families from losing their homes... and that's better then Mitt Romney wanting government to stay away and let people default on their mortgages. Obama stepped in and tried to help... that's better then the NO ACTION "plan" Mitt Romney has stated.

An article from a while ago during the primaries... but talks about Mitt Romney's "hand off" approach to housing (meaning no plan):
http://www.zillow.com/blog/2012-01-0...mes-to-housing



Yeah this his stupid plan.



Oh but he has. And Biden stated several clear parts of his economic plan, including lowering taxes on the middle class and small businesses.



The bail-outs have paid themselves back.



I've already stated it. Where is Romney's plan? Oh wait that's right... it doesn't exist. Obama has provided the roadwork for better and continued growth... while Romney offers an economic plan that only promises for major job losses (4.5 million to be exact).

So why does one attack Obama's economic plan when the opponent doesn't have one that's worth a damn?

One more time -- what is Obama's plan to get the economy back on course?

[Jack Springer]

Jack I live in South Carolina where unemployment remains high. I don't know a SINGLE person that is unemployed. All of my family and friends work @ banks, Restaurants(including fast-food), Hospital facilities, Car dealerships, Cellular companies and companies that I can't remember right now....I was worried about MY Career last year but since the transition/merger that has passed....My co-workers that lost their jobs during the transition did so because their departments closed and they weren't qualified for other job-openings within the company...They did receive a severance package...I didnt know ALL of the people that were let go, but the co-workers that I socialized with outside of the job found work probably quicker than normal..I haven't known ANYONE that has been standing in the Unemployment line...

I simply find it interesting that we talk about the Unemployment rate 24/7 but most of us don't know a single Soul that is actually cashing an unemployment check....

How many of your Family members &/or friends receive unemployment benefits?

I know several people who have been without work for several years -- good people, hard workers, some are in their 50's -- some are younger -- all want to work full time. Unemployment benefits have run out for them a long time ago -- they get no assistance from any government.

[centexfarmer]

I am gonna steal a line from Centex: "My pappy once told me, I would rather be in a room full of murders than one filled with liars and thieves cause at least i know what the murder is after"

Actually, and more to the point, my Dad reminded me tonight; "Regardless of position or title, the bottom line is the individual always looks out for themselves, because they KNOW that no one else will."

If that was a lie then there would be more Mother Theresa's, Gandhis, and Dhali Lamas in the world.

Politicians and those who elect them are no different.

Think about it.

[andysayshi]

With Romney there is hope that his skill set will help get business moving again

I'm interested that you say this. How do you see his election performance as displaying this?

Politifact and Factcheck.org agree that both Romney and Ryan's debate content was built on mis-truths, using false facts and stats at least 5:1 over Obama or Biden.

But what's more disturbing is the lack of ANY specifics about what the Romney-Ryan ticket is promising. Jon Stewart did a piece this week called "Vague Against the Machine", demonstrating what virtually every economist in the world is saying about Romney's promises: they are impossible. Romney has yet to specify ONE SINGLE TAX LOOPHOLE that will supposedly solve the 7 trillion dollar additional deficit his promises add to the woes of the US. Instead, we're given foolish platitudes like PBS and Planned Parenthood, which won't even resolve half of one percent of the cost of what Romney is proposing.

Take a look at the piece - I'm interested in your take on it. How can you trust a campaign that does nothing but promise without explaining how it will make those promises happen? If they can't be honest about the basics, what will happen when they actually have to deal with specifics?

In particular, the speech by Roosevelt played at the end speaks volumes to me.

It's easier to watch the clip from the "Whole Episode" link - it's about 10 mins long, straight from the start of the episode.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-epi...12-ben-affleck

[GiancarloC]

One more time -- what is Obama's plan to get the economy back on course?

I've stated it a few times. The decision to read what I have posted is not mine here.

[Sammie13]

more Bush ........ sad

and I view Obama's first 3 almost 4 as a "sunk cost" - no sense in spending good money after bad

and I've never heard of an 8 year investment that wasn't predicated on evaluating the return in years 5-8

Obama's strategy is taxing the rich and borrowing more money to pay for entitlements that he has promised to his voting base

There is no end in sight with him

With Romney there is hope that his skill set will help get business moving again

It's clear - right or wrong - that business leaders do NOT support Obama and are NOT investing in this economy

Romney provides a glimmer of hope IMO economically

and on foreign policy, Obama is naive and wrong - the Middle East is a prime example

as for Sanchez/Tebow ........ funny but the real story is that Tebow will be the starter sooner vs. later - so it does sorta fit with a Romney electoral victory

back to the Debate:

+ 6 points in the polls for Romney pre vs. post debate

+ 6 points

as for Jay's "sheepies" ........ LOL

the biggest Obama backer hates him - Bill Clinton

don't decry party politics for one side w/o the other

Oh, that's right. Repubs only talk about Reagan. Bush never happened. Actually, I don't really see much of a skill set or promises that Romney offers that Bush did not already try. And Bush did it with far more personal integrity.

As for putting good money behind bad money, we don't really know that. We have yet to see Obama's policies play out. Econ policies don't have impact right away. Unemployement is slipping downward; interest rates remain low; stocks/retirement is good; corp profits are mostly high. Hiring just isn't robust. Manufacturing has been killing us for a while and remains the case. I like the reforms in banking /credit and the auto bail out. TARP not so much. ObamaCare hasn't really started, but I think will be good and continuously tweaked. I like it better than the Ryan plan.

As for business leaders, the older I get, the more I realize the reason they only support the GOP is that they, too, love entitlements. The Dems give people entitlements; the Repubs give corporations/wealthy entitlements. Business leaders hated Bill Clinton, too. They, of course, hate Obama. Do you envision a Dem that they would like?

Good luck with that Tebow thing. New York ain't Florida....in Florida, he's a game changer; in NY, he'll just be holding down the fort til the draft in April. And [B]RazorEdge88[B], Tebow's 47% completetion percentage (as he had in Denver) is likely far better than Romney could ever acheive as POTUS.

[JayHawk]

The sad thing is most of these republicans argue against handouts while holding their handout. People who support them support liars and dishonest idiots. That is what kills me the most is the average republican will beleive some off the wall conspiracy theory before proven facts in front of their face.

[andysayshi]

^ Just like that classic Craig T. Nelson line: "I've been on food stamps and welfare. Did anybody help ME out? No."

[JayHawk]

Lets face it folks the republicans are the true socialist accepting handout after handout from the federal government while the hard working people in the blue states struggle to support them.

'Red State Socialism' graphic says GOP-leaning states get lion's share of federal dollars
It has been downgraded from completely true to mostly true now that republican policy destroyed the wealth and prosperity in the blue states.

[JayHawk]

The real world looks like this:

[ReadyWithReadyWit]

and I view Obama's first 3 almost 4 as a "sunk cost" - no sense in spending good money after bad

and I've never heard of an 8 year investment that wasn't predicated on evaluating the return in years 5-8

Obama's strategy is taxing the rich and borrowing more money to pay for entitlements that he has promised to his voting base

There is no end in sight with him

With Romney there is hope that his skill set will help get business moving again

It's clear - right or wrong - that business leaders do NOT support Obama and are NOT investing in this economy

Romney provides a glimmer of hope IMO economically

and on foreign policy, Obama is naive and wrong - the Middle East is a prime example

Forewarning: might need some caffeine for this one...

Enjoyed your post... I think it raises thoughtful concerns that worry many people... HOWEVER,...

I think viewing the Obama years as sunk costs is a mistake… they are an investment that pretty much all economists agree are working… to what degree/ how quickly is a matter of debate… but to suggest otherwise is nonsensical. Sure, there is uncertainty… but much of this uncertainty dissipates regardless of who is elected. The biggest uncertainty is Obamacare… which businesses are more than capable of adjusting to… once GOP governors, for example, stop holding their states’ economies hostage for political reasons… and there is no threat of repeal.

The truth is changing course comes with considerable costs (e.g., repealing Obamacare) and uncertainties (Does Romney have any ideas? Are they politically viable?) of its own. Thus, I think the question is more whether a Romney administration is a better investment… and there are absolutely no details to suggest this is the case… we are just supposed to cross our fingers… And, not to be too guilt-trippy, but I would contend that anyone on this forum voting for Romney better believe in their heart of hearts that Romney is going to provide something a tad more substantial than a “glimmer” of hope economically. I would use an analogy of moving from civil to criminal law… the evidence better be “beyond a reasonable doubt”… and the Romney campaign provides no evidence at all… other than, “hey, I’m a business man”…

Ironically, I think that Romney’s resurgence in the polls is the worst thing for the economy. Just when business leaders were coming to the realization of an Obama second term, they were slung back into limbo again. Likewise, a tighter election means that more crazy down-ticket TPers are going to survive making it ever so more difficult to reach necessary compromises.

On foreign policy, we obviously have irreconcilable differences . Libya is what it is (you clearly think it is a HUGE deal; I not so much). In general, though, the Romney campaign’s overall message seems to be to criticize the president and then say they would do the exact same thing, but talk “tough” and undermine allies in the process.

[vulgar_newcomer]

st 5:1 over Obama or Biden.

But what's more disturbing is the lack of ANY specifics about what the Romney-Ryan ticket is promising. Jon Stewart did a piece this week called "Vague Against the Machine", demonstrating what virtually every economist in the world is saying about Romney's promises: they are impossible. Romney has yet to specify ONE SINGLE TAX LOOPHOLE that will supposedly solve the 7 trillion dollar additional deficit his promises add to the woes of the US. Instead, we're given foolish platitudes like PBS and Planned Parenthood, which won't even resolve half of one percent of the cost of what Romney is proposing.

Thats because they will be the ones that slam into the ass of the middle and working class. The mortgage deduction for certain. He will say that applies to everyone.

Sort of like the old tale about the homeless man being told he couldn't sleep under the bridge by the cop. Then the cop says that applies to everyone rich or poor no sleeping under the bridge.

Most very well off people don't have mortgages, that's not how they set things up.

[Kulindahr]

calling people ignorant (and stupid) is pretty fucking lame

Only to those who think that lies are a legitimate way to campaign.

so I'm calling you on your bullshit - as you would want

No bullshit: the Founding Fathers wanted an educated electorate. Most of the electorate is not educated, which is why ROmney and Ryan can get away with so many lies.

not sure why the current dem strategy is to call the other side liars and idiots

Because the Republican strategy right now is lie, lie, lie, and in the interest of having an educated electorate, the Democrats are calling them on their lying.

as for romney v. bush ...... i think romney runs circles around him as a biz man

Romney's biz expertise is not what's needed here. He could afford to gamble, counting on ripping off the taxpayers if things went sour. But by his record, there's a one in four chance he'd dump the country in the ditch -- not a good thing for a president.

as for "the debate thread" ........

romney kicked obama's tail by an enormous margin

ryan stood toe to toe with hamburgler joe - and joe lied about libya and he lied about the admin being lockstep with israel - how could that be when bibi said iran nuclear capability is imminent and joe saying "just calm down"

So Joe made two lies. Ryan made at least fourteen, all big ones. He didn't "stand toe to toe", he hid behind a shield of falsehoods and pretended to be fighting.

[Kulindahr]

I simply find it interesting that we talk about the Unemployment rate 24/7 but most of us don't know a single Soul that is actually cashing an unemployment check....

How many of your Family members &/or friends receive unemployment benefits?

I know several collecting unemployment, who are embarrassed at having to use a food stamps card and go to a food bank to be able to eat.

[Kulindahr]

One more time -- what is Obama's plan to get the economy back on course?

Good grief, Jack -- you've been told over and over and you ignore it. Ignorance is one thing, but deliberate ignorance is just disgusting.

[MisterMajestic]

I know several people who have been without work for several years -- good people, hard workers, some are in their 50's -- some are younger -- all want to work full time. Unemployment benefits have run out for them a long time ago -- they get no assistance from any government.

Unless they live in underdeveloped Rural areas I find it hard to believe their Local Wal-Mart and Fast Food Chains are not hiring...When your 2yr unemployment benefits have run out then you have no other choice but to except employment from wherever you can find it....Case closed...

Pizza Hut usually hire cashiers and drivers all the time all over the Country...We have Pizza Hut, Subways & Dominoes popping-up in Rural areas all over South Carolina...I'm sure this trend is happening all over the USA...

Now what excuse have your friends &/or family given as to why they're too good to get off their Asses and get a job to bring in cash since YOU claim they've used up their unemployment benefits? And please don't bring up the age factor because 50 & 60yr olds are working at Fast Food chains left and right....

How are they paying their bills Jack, are they shacking up with you? Are you paying their bills because you're employed and they are not...

[Jack Springer]

Good grief, Jack -- you've been told over and over and you ignore it. Ignorance is one thing, but deliberate ignorance is just disgusting.

Pass a little jobs bill? That is it?

[chance1]

Unless they live in underdeveloped Rural areas I find it hard to believe their Local Wal-Mart and Fast Food Chains are not hiring...When your 2yr unemployment benefits have run out then you have no other choice but to except employment from wherever you can find it....Case closed...

Pizza Hut usually hire cashiers and drivers all the time all over the Country...We have Pizza Hut, Subways & Dominoes popping-up in Rural areas all over South Carolina...I'm sure this trend is happening all over the USA...

Now what excuse have your friends &/or family given as to why they're too good to get off their Asses and get a job to bring in cash since YOU claim they've used up their unemployment benefits? And please don't bring up the age factor because 50 & 60yr olds are working at Fast Food chains left and right....

How are they paying their bills Jack, are they shacking up with you? Are you paying their bills because you're employed and they are not...

I don't understand your .... Rant

People who are unemployed deserve it ? They're lazy ?

Personally I know many that are looking and have been for some time

And I've read of millions who have stopped looking

I think your POV on this matter is ...... Off