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Thread: His Late Majesty King Richard III

      
   
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    From @Richardtoyork, 9/27:

    Judicial Review hearing the 26th November under a Divisional Court, with 3 judges presiding. ...

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    At 7 pages and 300 posts!

    2 October 1452




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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III



    A cake for Richard....

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Happy Bday Mr. King

    Your name is clearing up

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    At 7 pages and 300 posts!
    It should not be surprising that British history attracts a lot of Americans. It's our history too by extension.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The facial reconstruction of Richard III is currently on tour:

    The facial reconstruction of King Richard III, as seen on the Channel 4 documentary, ‘The King in the Car Park,’ is to go on a national tour, beginning at The Guildhall. The model was commissioned by the Richard III Society and made by Professor Caroline Wilkinson and the forensic art team at the University of Dundee.

    It was made using a 3D printing technique called stereolithography. Finishing details like the style and colour of Richard's hair and hat were taken from near contemporary portraits of the King.
    Yorkshire Museum: 19th July – 13th October 2013
    Northampton Museum and Art Gallery: 19th October – 5th January 2014
    British Museum: 11th January 2014 – 16th March 2014
    Gloucester Museum and Art Gallery: 20th March – 30th March 2014
    Sudeley Castle, Winchcombe, Cheltenham GL54 5JD: 1st April - 16th April 2014

    http://www.leicester.gov.uk/your-cou...ns/richardiii/

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Leanda de Lisle has just introduced her new book, The Disappeared - Richard III, Henry VII and the Princes in the Tower.

    de Lisle is an accomplished author on events of the period.

    I am trying to get publication details.

    ****

    Jadis Shadows Productions have unveiled a new play, Richard III – Now is the Winter of our Discontent.

    “Now is the winter of his discontent”… Richard Plantagenet has become a creature of legendary evil and corruption in the minds of public opinion; a hunchback of murderous ambition. Yet while the propaganda of Shakespeare’s dramatic creation has become readily accepted as fact, the gentler truth about this skilled warrior, polished courtier and able statesman is often overlooked.

    In this new, specially commissioned play another side of Richard III is examined.

    England is in bloody turmoil, brother turning against brother, father against son. A rampant battle for power rages as an audience is invited to revaluate Richard through the eyes of the strong and determined women who surrounded him; his wife, Anne Neville; the sensual dowager Queen, Elizabeth Woodville and the indomitable Margaret Beaufort, mother of the future Henry VII, matriarch of the dawning Tudor dynasty.
    Both sourced from http://www.leicester.gov.uk/your-cou...s/october2013/

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Interesting Palbert, thanks.

    I've just spotted reports of a chapel at Towton being built by Richard III at the time of his death. That's not far from me and I can feel an expedition coming on!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24434795

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    From the King Richard III Campaign, an article by David Johnson PhD, designer of the proposed tomb for the re-interment of the late King:

    Did King Richard intend to be buried in York Minster? [<Link]

    ....

    Of course, the one assertion we can make with absolute certainty is that Richard III never chose to be buried in Leicester, and the fact that he was hastily and inappropriately interred in the church of the Grey Friars is no more than a very unfortunate accident of history. Had it not been for the battle of Bosworth, he would almost certainly have been laid to rest in a beautiful and specially designed chapel in York Minster, serviced by the continuous prayers and masses of no less than one hundred chantry priests. The sheer scale of this ultimately aborted project, and its resonance with the royal chapel of Edward IV at Windsor, provides compelling evidence that England’s ‘northern’ king had set his sights on York.
    Article ©David Johnson PhD

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The respective petitions for York and Leicester are being submitted to the Government.

    Richard III: More than 39,000 signatures to keep king's remains in Leicester

    The internet petition was due to finish at about midday today (ed.: 12 Oct 2013), when it will be submitted to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. A rival campaign calling for the bones to be reinterred in York, which gathered 31,300 signatures, closed in September.
    http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.u...#ixzz2hhPTT37W

    Other reports say it will be presented at No. 10 Monday, 14 Oct. http://www.itv.com/news/central/upda...t-no-10-today/

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Leanda de Lisle has just introduced her new book, The Disappeared - Richard III, Henry VII and the Princes in the Tower.

    de Lisle is an accomplished author on events of the period.

    I am trying to get publication details.
    Leanda de Lisle informs me:

    My new book should be for sale now. It is on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. In the US the title is rather long winded (not my choice!) Tudor: Passion, Manipulation, Murder, the Story of England's most Notorious Royal Family. It covers the period 1437-1603.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Thanks for keeping the thread going Palbert.

    It appears that neither petition received enough responses to trigger a debate in parliament. I guess it will be down to the Judicial Review now. They thing, as you've already posted above is that "the one assertion we can make with absolute certainty is that Richard III never chose to be buried in Leicester".

    The new book appears to be available:



    http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/tudo...=9781610393638

  12. #312

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Thanks for keeping the thread going Palbert.

    It appears that neither petition received enough responses to trigger a debate in parliament. I guess it will be down to the Judicial Review now. They thing, as you've already posted above is that "the one assertion we can make with absolute certainty is that Richard III never chose to be buried in Leicester".

    The new book appears to be available:



    http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/tudo...=9781610393638
    True, but he also did not express a preference as far as is known. Has anyone other than Leicester expressed a desire to have him? As I understand, Yorkminster supports the claim of Leister which is partly responsible for his rediscovery. Leicester Cathedral honored him with a memorial even before his remains were discovered.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    True, but he also did not express a preference as far as is known. Has anyone other than Leicester expressed a desire to have him? As I understand, Yorkminster supports the claim of Leister which is partly responsible for his rediscovery. Leicester Cathedral honored him with a memorial even before his remains were discovered.
    The Dean of York supports Leicester cathedral's claim, but there again she was previously Dean of Leicester. Frankly, I don't think her views count for much. The Plantagenet Alliance, which purports to represent the living descendants of Richard's siblings, supports re-burial in York and they've just won a preliminary legal skirmish:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24578625

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Has anyone asked if any of this Plantagenet Alliance even knew they were descendants until Ashdown-Hill and other researchers figuratively dug them (and Richard III literally) up?

  15. #315

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    It is time for the Queen to step in and settle the question. As the legal head of the Royal family, legal heir and next of kin of Richard, and as head of the C of E, it is surely her prerogative if she should choose to exercise it.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Has anyone asked if any of this Plantagenet Alliance even knew they were descendants until Ashdown-Hill and other researchers figuratively dug them (and Richard III literally) up?
    Are there no living descendants of the Wessex kings?

  17. #317

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    ...David Johnson PhD, designer of the proposed tomb ...


    I wonder if that's gold leaf? What is that phrase on the top?

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Are there no living descendants of the Wessex kings?
    Yes. Queen Elizabeth II for one.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wessex

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post


    I wonder if that's gold leaf? What is that phrase on the top?
    I think that's much more likely to be a brass plate set into the stone than gold leaf. The phrase is "Loyaulte me lie" which means "Loyalty binds me". It was Richard's personal motto.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Yes. Queen Elizabeth II for one.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wessex
    I mean who are closer than Elizabeth of York.

  21. #321

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    I'm watching one of the TV docos on the dig. Jo, one of the diggers, broke the king's skull with a mattock!

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Are there no living descendants of the Wessex kings?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    I mean who are closer than Elizabeth of York.
    You've lost me! Are there any descendants of the Wessex kings who are closer than Elizabeth of York to what?

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    I'm watching one of the TV docos on the dig. Jo, one of the diggers, broke the king's skull with a mattock!
    Yes, I saw that too. Clumsy or what?

  24. #324

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The forensic bone investigators are saying his body was draped across a horse and someone with a dagger stabbed him in the rectum!
    Last edited by pat grimshaw; October 20th, 2013 at 03:48 AM.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    The forensic bone investigators are saying his body was draped across a horse and someone with a dagger stabbed him in the rectum!
    Buttocks!

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    You've lost me! Are there any descendants of the Wessex kings who are closer than Elizabeth of York to what?
    A descendant of Wessex with more Saxon blood than the Beauforts from whom Elizabeth II claims most of her ancient blood. The Plantagenets have only one link through Margaret of Wessex.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    A descendant of Wessex with more Saxon blood than the Beauforts from whom Elizabeth II claims most of her ancient blood. The Plantagenets have only one link through Margaret of Wessex.
    You've got me there. The Queen is descended from the marriage of Henry I to Matilda of Scotland who was a niece of Edgar the Ætheling. I don't think the royal line of descent particularly relies on the Beauforts though. One of the reasons Henry VII married Elizabeth of York was because her claim to the throne was stronger than his. The Queen is descended from the marriage of their daughter Margaret to James IV of Scotland.

    Have a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent..._the_Conqueror

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    The Queen is descended from the marriage of Henry I to Matilda of Scotland who was a niece of Edgar the Ætheling.
    Margaret of Wessex was mother to Matilda, and also sister to Edgar.

    I don't think the royal line of descent particularly relies on the Beauforts though.
    Right. Elizabeth of York I think descended from two of Edward III's sons, but Henry VII also had Beaufort blood, hence that's why I said most. The simple fact that Saxon blood is compounded many times in the 15th century is important, but there may be people who have even more.

    It would be more interesting to map out the House of Wessex than the Plantagenets, if you don't believe in William's right of conquest.

    Ah, the Tudors also had Mortimer blood, so that's three sons of Edward III that Elizabeth is descended from.
    Last edited by Alnitak; October 20th, 2013 at 05:59 AM.

  29. #329

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Margaret of Wessex was mother to Matilda, and also sister to Edgar.



    Right. Elizabeth of York I think descended from two of Edward III's sons, but Henry VII also had Beaufort blood, hence that's why I said most. The simple fact that Saxon blood is compounded many times in the 15th century is important, but there may be people who have even more.

    It would be more interesting to map out the House of Wessex than the Plantagenets, if you don't believe in William's right of conquest.



    Ah, the Tudors also had Mortimer blood, so that's three sons of Edward III that Elizabeth is descended from.
    Elizabeth of York was also descended from John of Gaunt, the third son of Edward III, through her grandmother Cecily Neville, daughter of Joan Beauford. But there is also a question of whether Elizabeth's father Edward IV was the son of Richard of York, allegedly in Europe st the time.

  30. #330

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    No one has dissuaded me from thinking that the King of England should be buried in the capital of England.

    They say he should be buried out in the provinces as some kind of provincial tourist attraction.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Shortlist for King Richard III artwork is revealed

    Five short-listed designs for a King Richard III artwork linking the Bosworth battlefield and Leicester have gone on show.
    ...
    People can give their views by completing a form at Bosworth, Leicester Cathedral or County Hall or by visiting:

    www.leics.gov.uk/ cathedralgardens
    (At the site ^^ there are two perspectives of each submission.)

    http://legacy.thisisleicestershire.c...#ixzz2iTLip0NI

    My modernist view directs me to Wolfgang Buttress' Return. But, something compels me to Michael Sandle's Requiem for Richard III.

    As there a total of ten perspectives, I let you look for yourself.

    The shortlisted designs will be at Bosworth until Sunday (October 27) before being displayed at Leicester Cathedral (October 28 - November 3) and the members’ lounge at County Hall headquarters in Glenfield (November 4 - 8) with the public encouraged to give their views.
    http://www.leics.gov.uk/cathedralgardens

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    I'm afraid to say Palbert that I don't care for any of them, but modern "art" generally leaves me cold.

    I've had a reply from HMG about the online petition:

    "The e-petition 'Richard III to be re-interred at York Minster' signed by you recently reached 31,342 signatures and a response has been made to it.

    As this e-petition has received more than 10 000 signatures, the relevant Government department have provided the following response: The Secretary of State grants licences to exhume buried human remains under Section 25 of the Burial Act 1857. Around 200 licences are issued each year for archaeological purposes. On 3 September 2012 the Ministry of Justice granted a licence to Leicester University to exhume human remains found during the excavation of a Leicester car park. The excavation was primarily to investigate a Franciscan friary but also to locate the remains of King Richard III who, evidence suggested, was buried there in 1485. The University carried out a series of tests on the remains and on 4 February 2013 announced that one set was those of King Richard III “beyond reasonable doubt”. The MoJ licence prescribes that the remains should, no later than 31 August 2014, be deposited at Jewry Wall Museum or be reinterred at St Martin’s Cathedral or in a burial ground in which interments may legally take place; and that in the meantime they should be kept safely, privately and decently by the University of Leicester. The University intends to reinter Richard III’s remains at St Martin’s Cathedral in Leicester. The Secretary of State for Justice and the University are currently defending a judicial review of the decision to grant the exhumation licence to the University of Leicester. This judicial review touches on the question of where Richard III should be reinterred. It would be inappropriate to comment further while the judicial review is ongoing.”

  33. #333

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    No one has dissuaded me from thinking that the King of England should be buried in the capital of England.

    They say he should be buried out in the provinces as some kind of provincial tourist attraction.
    The last King buried in London was George II in1760. Elizabeth II will not be. She, to a virtual certainty, will be buried in St George's Chapel, Windsor.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The last King buried in London was George II in1760. Elizabeth II will not be. She, to a virtual certainty, will be buried in St George's Chapel, Windsor.
    She will. The vault of King George VI has six spaces; himself and Queen Elizabeth, Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Prince Charles and Camilla. Additionally, it also contains the ashes of Princess Margaret.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	michael_sandle_2_requiem_fir_king_richard_iiismal.jpg 
Views:	173 
Size:	44.8 KB 
ID:	994885
    Sandle's Requiem for Richard III

  36. #336

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    ^ what is that white material? Plastic?

    Those scruffy rough figures below look like the garish ugly figures from the 1960s Coventry Cathedral.

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    I'm afraid to say Palbert that I don't care for any of them...
    I agree.

    They all look like modern junk to me— and utterly disrespectful and unharmonious to the stone surroundings.

    Where will the visitor centre be located?
    Last edited by pat grimshaw; October 23rd, 2013 at 01:25 AM.

  37. #337

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    She will. The vault of King George VI has six spaces; himself and Queen Elizabeth, Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Prince Charles and Camilla. Additionally, it also contains the ashes of Princess Margaret.
    Thanks. I visited St George's in August and wondered where they would find room. It is a gorgeous church, but a bit junky as they have chairs and stuff stored around the edges.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post

    Those scruffy rough figures below look like the garish ugly figures from the 1960s Coventry Cathedral.
    Oh that thing...

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Oh that thing...
    For readers who were wondering why Coventry Cathedral ...



    It's no better in the flesh. We have the Luftwaffe to thank for the loss of its medieval predecessor.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    On the other hand, there were probably far more German churches that were destroyed.

    Poor buildings wanted no part in the destruction.

    Anyway, the old tower is still quite nice.
    Last edited by Alnitak; October 23rd, 2013 at 02:45 PM.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    For readers who were wondering why Coventry Cathedral ...



    It's no better in the flesh. We have the Luftwaffe to thank for the loss of its medieval predecessor.
    This is what we refer to as the Queen Elizabeth II style. It is a shame that it is gone...but as has been pointed out...so are some of the most important cathedrals in Germany....oddly enough though...if it hadn't been for medieval romantic nationalism clashing up against the modern industrial age...WWI and therefore WWII would not have occurred at all.

    BTW. All the Richard monumants are shite. Shurly design students could do better. Save us from all of these maudlin, derivative and unoriginal pieces of crappe.

  42. #342

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    This is what we refer to as the Queen Elizabeth II style...
    You can't blame the monarch for the stupid rudeness of the adolescent brutalist buildings built during her reign.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    This is what we refer to as the Queen Elizabeth II style. It is a shame that it is gone...but as has been pointed out...so are some of the most important cathedrals in Germany....oddly enough though...if it hadn't been for medieval romantic nationalism clashing up against the modern industrial age...WWI and therefore WWII would not have occurred at all.

    BTW. All the Richard monumants are shite. Shurly design students could do better. Save us from all of these maudlin, derivative and unoriginal pieces of crappe.
    Many were rebuilt of course, such as the church in Dresden. Some such as the Cologne Cathedral came within an inch of collapse but were saved that the last minute.

    It just so happens this architect decided against rebuilding the old cathedral. Germany has a very similar church, the Kaiser Memorial Church, which is half historic half modern.

  44. #344
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Ricardians? LOL

  46. #346

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I know I have no dog in this fight, but hope Leicester prevails.

    Richard III arrived at Bosworth a proud man; he fought as a King and proud man; let him be remembered where he was betrayed by, among others, the city of York, which sent only 80 men to his royal array. Ashdown-Hill, The Last Days of Richard III and the Fate of His DNA, The History Press (2013)(p. 67).

    From circumstances it has been discerned that the King was betrayed by Henry Northumberland, 4th Earl of Percy, who was slow to advance. Buttressing the fact of betrayal, posted to the tent of Sir John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, "his staunchest supporter," was the couplet:

    Jockey of Norfolk, be not too bold
    For Dickson thy master is bought and sold.

    Seward, The Wars of the Roses, Carroll & Graf (2007)(p. 403)

    As late as the 1530's it was said in the Commons "Although he did evil, yet in his time were many good Acts made." (Ashdown-Hill, Ch. 12, fn. 8.)

    Were I meaningfully a descendant I would have known it before someone else worked out the family tree and disinterred the King.
    At the risk of being picky, the quote should read " Dickon thy master is bought and sold." Not Dickson. Perhaps the most meaningful betrayal was by Lord Stanley, the Constable of England, who gave his son as hostage to insure loyalty but who nevertheless betrayed Richard. It is puzzling that Richard trusted him, since Stanley was the Father in Law of Henry Tudor, having married his mother Margaret Beaufort.
    Since York did not support him when needed, perhaps York should not be rewarded with his tomb.
    Last edited by Benvolio; October 24th, 2013 at 03:56 PM.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The Yorkshire Museum is displaying a 600 year old manuscript to buttress its relation to Richard III.

    Now, a nearly 600-year-old manuscript on display at the Yorkshire Museum reveals York's attitudes toward the medieval king while he was still alive. This is the first time the manuscript has been on display for the public, according to The Northern Echo.
    Before the King's visit in august 1483, the City was instructed:

    "I advyse you, as honourably as your wisdomes can imagyne, to ressayve hym and the quene at their commyng, dispose you to do as well pageants with soch good speches as can goodly, thys short warnyng considered, be devised," read instructions from the King's secretary contained in the York House Books manuscript. The orders came in August 1483, as Richard III and his lords travelled to York.
    After the Battle of Bosworth:

    "'King Richard late mercifully reigning upon us was thrugh grete treason of the duc of Northefolk and many othre that turned ayenst hyme, with many othre lordes and nobilles of this north parties, was pitiously slane and murdred to the grete hevynesse of this citie," the York House bookkeeper recorded.
    http://www.livescience.com/40540-yor...chard-iii.html

    This exhibit is part of the Richard III: Rumour and Reality Festival, through June 2014.

    http://richardiii-ipup.org.uk/ (contains resources, historical timeline and more))

  48. #348
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Thanks Palbert. I'll have to get myself along to see that.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    ^^ You please must report back for those not fortunate enough to see it!

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The reburial plans in Leicester are on hold:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24906332

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