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  1. #251
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    True, but the Tudors couldn't get away from the fact that Henry VII acquired the throne by conquest. His line of descent from Edward III unarguably gave him less right to the throne than Richard III had had. The Tudor dynasty therefore had to employ what would these days be called spin to blacken the reputation of their predecessors and justify their own position. It would have been unthinkable for Shakespeare to be allowed to publish plays which portrayed a different version of the truth.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    True, but the Tudors couldn't get away from the fact that Henry VII acquired the throne by conquest. His line of descent from Edward III unarguably gave him less right to the throne than Richard III had had. The Tudor dynasty therefore had to employ what would these days be called spin to blacken the reputation of their predecessors and justify their own position. It would have been unthinkable for Shakespeare to be allowed to publish plays which portrayed a different version of the truth.
    Agreed. Elizabeth's censors would have never let a fair view go to print, and Shakespeare would not have wanted to incur her notorious wrath. It may have even been published to curry favor.

  3. #253
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Fascinating. Since technically Henry VII was an usurper, he had to marry Elizabeth of York. She was the real heir to the throne, after the deaths of Edward V & young Richard, Duke of York (the Princes in the Tower). She should have been Elizabeth I, with Henry Tudor as her consort. (Fat chance, with his ego!!)
    Last edited by Lestatnj; September 5th, 2013 at 01:13 PM.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestatnj View Post
    Fascinating. Since technically Henry VII was an usurper, he had to marry Elizabeth of York. She was the real heir to the throne, after the deaths of Edward V & young Richard, Duke of York (the Princes in the Tower). She should have been Elizabeth I, with Henry Tudor as her consort. (Fat chance, with his ego!!)
    Except that Elizabeth of York was illegitimate by virtue of the Earl of March's (later, Edward IV) pre-marital contract with one other than Elizabeth Woodville (later, Edward IV's Queen Consort).

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Well, they're all "technically" moot, since along with Henry VII & Richard III, both Edward IV & Henry IV were also usurpers. Why I find English History makes fascinating reading

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Add as usurper Henry Bolingbroke (later, Henry IV) who deposed Richard II.

  7. #257

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Except that Elizabeth of York was illegitimate by virtue of the Earl of March's (later, Edward IV) pre-marital contract with one other than Elizabeth Woodville (later, Edward IV's Queen Consort).
    The legitimacy of Edward IV was also questioned, since his legal father, Richard Duke of York was said to have been fighting in France while his mother Cecily Neville, had a dalliance with an alleged archer.
    It is almost easier to list the ones who were not usurpers. William I by conquest. Henry I was not next in line but was quick to act when William II was suspiciously shot with an arrow while hunting. Empress Matilda should have succeeded him, but Stephan usurped the Crown. Later, John was not next in line but was in control. Edward II was deposed and Edward III became King while his mother and Mortomer ruled.

  8. #258

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    That should read Mortimer.
    Will it be a Catholic ceremony? Probably, but with Anglican participation. It will be managed by the Earl Marshall, the Duke of Norfolk, who is Catholic, and who is a direct descendant of John Howard, the First Duke of Norfolk, who was loyal to Richard and died with him at Bosworth. The Earl cannot cause it to be Catholic, and it may be a bit awkward for him, but it seems likely that he will encourage a Catholic ceremony by consensus. I doubt if the Anglicans will seek a non Catholic ceremony, but an ecumenical one.
    Last edited by Benvolio; September 5th, 2013 at 04:56 PM.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tudor-tomb-3d.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	61.8 KB 
ID:	983621

    The University of Leicester (which seems to be on a roll) is working with experts to visually reconstruct Tudor era tombs. They are using 3D scanning.

    So far we have Thomas Howard's, 3rd Duke of Norfolk.

    http://www.heritagedaily.com/2013/09...scanning/98927

    I would love to see the Thetford Priory exhibit.

  10. #260
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestatnj View Post
    Fascinating. Since technically Henry VII was an usurper, he had to marry Elizabeth of York. She was the real heir to the throne, after the deaths of Edward V & young Richard, Duke of York (the Princes in the Tower). She should have been Elizabeth I, with Henry Tudor as her consort. (Fat chance, with his ego!!)
    Elizabeth of York herself and of course her father Edward IV had Lancastrian blood through the Beaufort line (though barred from the throne by an act of Henry Bolingbroke).

    A supplement to the Tudor dynasty was uniting Wales and England by blood as Henry himself was descended from a Welsh prince.
    Last edited by Alnitak; September 7th, 2013 at 09:08 AM.

  11. #261
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tudor-tomb-3d.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	61.8 KB 
ID:	983621

    The University of Leicester (which seems to be on a roll) is working with experts to visually reconstruct Tudor era tombs. They are using 3D scanning.

    So far we have Thomas Howard's, 3rd Duke of Norfolk.

    http://www.heritagedaily.com/2013/09...scanning/98927

    I would love to see the Thetford Priory exhibit.
    I've been to Framlingham to see those tombs in the parish church. They're quite something.


  12. #262
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    This is the second one:


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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    A 4 minute video.

    A Look at Richard III's connections with Yorkshire and why he should be re-interred in York Minster.


    (Tweeted by @Richardtoyork)

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Richard III Book of Loyal Supporters

    Our first offer is a very unique idea of the chance to add your name to our take on a Book Of Condolence - your name in Richard III's Book Of Loyal Supporters!
    http://yorkshirerose.simpl.com/ (£2 donation)

  15. #265
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Thanks for those Palbert. I'm afraid I found the video rather slow, but was pleased to see Middleham Castle shown. I've visited it a few times and climbed to the top of the tower.

    I think I'm over 500 years too late for a book of condolence. Nice little earner for someone that!

  16. #266
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Add as usurper Henry Bolingbroke (later, Henry IV) who deposed Richard II.
    I already had. The post directly above yours.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Here's some background on the Plantagenet Alliance:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-23929989

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    I know I have no dog in this fight, but hope Leicester prevails.

    Richard III arrived at Bosworth a proud man; he fought as a King and proud man; let him be remembered where he was betrayed by, among others, the city of York, which sent only 80 men to his royal array. Ashdown-Hill, The Last Days of Richard III and the Fate of His DNA, The History Press (2013)(p. 67).

    From circumstances it has been discerned that the King was betrayed by Henry Northumberland, 4th Earl of Percy, who was slow to advance. Buttressing the fact of betrayal, posted to the tent of Sir John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, "his staunchest supporter," was the couplet:

    Jockey of Norfolk, be not too bold
    For Dickson thy master is bought and sold.

    Seward, The Wars of the Roses, Carroll & Graf (2007)(p. 403)

    As late as the 1530's it was said in the Commons "Although he did evil, yet in his time were many good Acts made." (Ashdown-Hill, Ch. 12, fn. 8.)

    Were I meaningfully a descendant I would have known it before someone else worked out the family tree and disinterred the King.

  19. #269
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Palbert, you got that back to front. It was Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry...Northumberland

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Palbert, you got that back to front. It was Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry...Northumberland
    Thanks. Got it wrong in the melee.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Were I meaningfully a descendant I would have known it before someone else worked out the family tree and disinterred the King.
    I wonder if, as a first cousin 16x removed, I have a vote in this.......

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I wonder if, as a first cousin 16x removed, I have a vote in this.......
    You can break any ties.

    And, I give you the Aquitaine.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    From The Post Hole, the student-run archaeology journal, University of York:

    Identifying Richard III – an interview with Dr Turi King

    In light of the recent discovery of Richard III, Dr Turi King, lecturer in genetics and archaeology at the University of Leicester, talks about her involvement in the research project that found England’s final Plantagenet king in this exclusive interview with The Post Hole.
    http://www.theposthole.org/read/article/216 (text)(pdf-able)

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    I've posted about this already in the "If You Were An Archaeologist" thread, but I can't resist starting a dedicated thread in view of the latest developments.



    Richard III was the last Yorkist King of England. His reign only lasted two years (1483-85) and his death at the Battle of Bosworth Field marked the end of the Wars of the Roses and the end of the medieval period of English history.

    Over 500 years later, Richard is still considered controversial because of his supposed complicity in the deaths of his nephews King Edward V and Richard, Duke of York (aka the Princes in the Tower). There's no historical evidence about the truth of those claims one way or the other. Much of the speculation is based on William Shakespeare's play Richard III, but Shakespeare was writing during the Tudor period when criticising the earlier Yorkists was politically expected.

    Anyway, Richard III was buried beneath the choir in Greyfriars Friary, Leicester which was later demolished during Henry VIII's reformation and its precise whereabouts lost. There's currently an archaeological excavation in a car park in Leicester which has located the church and, it's been announced today, found human remains. Not only that, but a curvature of the spine, a skull injury and an embedded arrowhead are all consistent with what's known about Richard and his death. The archaeologists have DNA from a living descendant of Richard's sister and will be testing the bones hoping for a match.

    For history buffs like me, this is very exciting stuff. Richard III is the only English monarch since 1066 to have no known grave. If the tests show that the remains are Richard's, he'll apparently be reburied in Leicester Cathedral although personally I feel there would be more suitable places, one being York Minster.

    Some links for anyone I haven't bored into submission:

    BBC News - Richard III dig: 'Strong evidence' bones are lost king

    Richard III of England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Princes in the Tower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Thanks for the links.

  25. #275
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    From The Post Hole, the student-run archaeology journal, University of York
    Very interesting, thanks for posting that Palbert.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pcp3t3 View Post
    Thanks for the links.
    You're most welcome.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    I spotted an interesting story about Prince Charles today. Apparently he's now overtaken the future King William IV as the oldest heir to the throne since Sophia, Electress of Hanover in 1714.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...h-crowned.html

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Charles was anticipated: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock:

    ...
    No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;
    Am an attendant lord, one that will do
    To swell a progress, start a scene or two
    Advise the prince; no doubt, an easy tool,
    Deferential, glad to be of use,
    Politic, cautious, and meticulous;
    Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse;
    At times, indeed, almost ridiculous—
    Almost, at times, the Fool.
    ...
    http://people.virginia.edu/~sfr/enam312/prufrock.html

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    I spotted an interesting story about Prince Charles today. Apparently he's now overtaken the future King William IV as the oldest heir to the throne since Sophia, Electress of Hanover in 1714.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...h-crowned.html
    He'll hardly get any reign at all, and even those years he does have will be spent old and frail.

  29. #279
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    This is the latest design for a tomb in Leicester Cathedral. I don't really like the design any more than I like the idea of it being in Leicester.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24159531

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Charles' views on architecture will preserve Tony Blair's "island theme park."

  31. #281
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    This is the latest design for a tomb in Leicester Cathedral. I don't really like the design any more than I like the idea of it being in Leicester.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24159531
    My first reaction is 'Not the old negative cross thing again. Hasn't this been done to death, already?'

    As a 'collateral descendant' lol, my vote is still for Westminster with the other Kings and Queens of England.

  32. #282
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    As a 'collateral descendant' lol, my vote is still for Westminster with the other Kings and Queens of England.
    You say that Rareboy, but I've done a spot of research on burial places:

    William I - Monastery of St Etienne, Caen, France
    William II - Winchester Cathedral
    Henry I - Reading Abbey
    Stephen - Abbey of the Holy Saviour, Faversham
    Henry II - Fontevrault Abbey, France
    Richard I - Fontevrault Abbey, France
    John - Worcester Cathedral
    Henry III - Westminster Abbey
    Edward I - Westminster Abbey
    Edward II - Gloucester Cathedral
    Edward III - Westminster Abbey
    Richard II - Westminster Abbey
    Henry IV - Canterbury Cathedral
    Henry V - Westminster Abbey
    Henry VI - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward IV - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward V - Unknown
    Richard III - Formerly Greyfriars Church, Leicester
    Henry VII - Westminster Abbey
    Henry VIII - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward VI - Westminster Abbey
    Mary I - Westminster Abbey
    Elizabeth I - Westminster Abbey
    James I - Westminster Abbey
    Charles I - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Charles II - Westminster Abbey
    James II - St Germain, Paris, France
    Mary II - Westminster Abbey
    William III - Westminster Abbey
    Anne - Westminster Abbey
    George I - Hanover, Germany
    George II - Westminster Abbey
    George III - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    George IV - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    William IV - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Victoria - Royal Mausoleum, Windsor
    Edward VII - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    George V - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward VIII - Royal Burial Ground, Windsor
    George VI - St George's Chapel, Windsor

    and you'll see that only 15 of the 40 Kings and Queens since 1066 are buried at Westminster, meaning that your argument is perhaps not as decisive as you think.

    As far as Richard III's family are concerned, his parents are both buried at Fotheringhay in Northamptonshire, his wife at Westminster Abbey and his son possibly at Sheriff Hutton near York.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Thanks unloadonme

    The appropriate place now would be Windsor.

    Bear in mind Richard III was building a chapel in York and may well have intended to be buried there with his prospective bride from either Spain (Infanta Isabel of Castile and Aragon) or Portugal (Infanta Joana), both of whom descended from John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster.

  34. #284
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    You say that Rareboy, but I've done a spot of research on burial places:

    William I - Monastery of St Etienne, Caen, France
    William II - Winchester Cathedral
    Henry I - Reading Abbey
    Stephen - Abbey of the Holy Saviour, Faversham
    Henry II - Fontevrault Abbey, France
    Richard I - Fontevrault Abbey, France
    John - Worcester Cathedral
    Henry III - Westminster Abbey
    Edward I - Westminster Abbey
    Edward II - Gloucester Cathedral
    Edward III - Westminster Abbey
    Richard II - Westminster Abbey
    Henry IV - Canterbury Cathedral
    Henry V - Westminster Abbey
    Henry VI - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward IV - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward V - Unknown
    Richard III - Formerly Greyfriars Church, Leicester
    Henry VII - Westminster Abbey
    Henry VIII - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward VI - Westminster Abbey
    Mary I - Westminster Abbey
    Elizabeth I - Westminster Abbey
    James I - Westminster Abbey
    Charles I - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Charles II - Westminster Abbey
    James II - St Germain, Paris, France
    Mary II - Westminster Abbey
    William III - Westminster Abbey
    Anne - Westminster Abbey
    George I - Hanover, Germany
    George II - Westminster Abbey
    George III - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    George IV - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    William IV - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Victoria - Royal Mausoleum, Windsor
    Edward VII - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    George V - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward VIII - Royal Burial Ground, Windsor
    George VI - St George's Chapel, Windsor

    and you'll see that only 15 of the 40 Kings and Queens since 1066 are buried at Westminster, meaning that your argument is perhaps not as decisive as you think.

    As far as Richard III's family are concerned, his parents are both buried at Fotheringhay in Northamptonshire, his wife at Westminster Abbey and his son possibly at Sheriff Hutton near York.
    I think he should be buried with his wife.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I think he should be buried with his wife.
    His overthrow and death by the usurper was not anticipated. Had he lived he would probably have wanted to be buried with the wife who produced an heir. Queen Anne did not, their son, Edward of Middleham, predeceasing them both.

  36. #286

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Most scholars accept that Edward Vs remains are in the urn designed by Christopher Wren in Westminster Abbey.
    There is some circumstantial evidence that Richard III intended to be buried in St George's Chapel, Windsor, where Edward IV was buried, but any remaining space is needed for future monarchs.
    He did not even mark his wife's grave under the floor of Westminster Abbey, and her precise location is not known. It seems unlikely that he intended to join her. He could not now be buried in Westminster Abbey without considerable disruption.
    It seems certain that the burial will be in Leister Cathedral.
    I agree that the design above seems cheap. Some attempt to give it a medieval appearance should be made.

  37. #287
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Too cartoonish:


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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    This is the latest design for a tomb in Leicester Cathedral. I don't really like the design any more than I like the idea of it being in Leicester.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24159531
    I think the design is stunningly beautiful. Austere, strong, and evoking timelessness.

    Upon seeing the proposal I thought first of the tombs at Fontrevaud Abbey. That is a pleasing response.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    A modern design is proper, and I'd even say necessary, to confirm for future generations that he was only interred in the 21st century. I realise it is unlikely that a record made today will be lost to future generations, but who can say? If in a hundred years the Internet meets the fate of the original Library of Alexandria, a 21st century sarcophagus will help future historians confirm whatever fragments of information they might have about the events that transpired since his death. Certainly it will also help future generations appreciate this.

    It occurs to me that some feature of the design could be modified to reflect late mediaeval motifs, but I still think the design should be of the day and not a faux-mediaeval imitation.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  40. #290
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Well, I'll concede that a controversial design inherently has merit, as it attracts comment and consideration.

    It is a great history indeed.

    I wish we knew as much about Latin American dynasties, and Korean, and Turkish, and . . .

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Upon seeing the proposal I thought first of the tombs at Fontrevaud Abbey.
    To be honest, the Fontevrault tombs were the last thing I thought of. To me they have little in common with what's proposed for Leicester.



    (King Henry II and Queen Eleanor)



    (Richard I)

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Peevish:

    Members of the Richard III Society have withdrawn funding meant for the king's tomb at Leicester Cathedral because they are unhappy with the design.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24201228

    (The funding was £40,000.)

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    ^ Good for them.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Disappointing news about the online petition:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24230823

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    An interview with Philippa Langley, one of the forces behind the unearthing of Richard III.

    The unearthing of a skeleton in a Leicester car park last year caused a sensation when it was confirmed as being Richard III. But for PHILIPPA LANGLEY, who instigated the remarkable discovery, the fight to salvage the reputation of this much maligned monarch is far from over
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/...#ixzz2ftoks7Fo

  46. #296

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    In the absence of new and compelling evidence, which seems extremely unlikely, Richard's reputation is about where it is going to stay. Many people have come to realize that the evidence is circumstantial and that it is consistent with a half a dozen or so scenarios. Nevertheless, the evidence points more strongly to Richard than to the other suspects. Other than that, he does come across as one of the more reasonable, likeable and generous of the English monarchs. Without new evidence, that picture is unlikely to change.
    DNA testing of the bones in Westminster Abbey might establish that the boys are indeed Edward V and Prince Richard.
    But I can think of only one remote finding which would change the historical story. One of the possible scenarios, consistent with the existing evidence is that the boys died of natural causes, such as infectious disease. This is a distinct possibility since at that time, and continuing until the 1900s, 40% or more of the children died before adulthood. Two of the prince's siblings died of the plague.The boys were living on the very edge of the Thames--a sewer in those days--in close confinement. If one became ill, the other was exposed as well. One of the familiar bits of evidence is that the boys were seen playing outside, but then only at the window, less and less frequently. Then they were seen no more. This gradual withdrawal is more indicative of illness than an impending murder.
    BUT I think it is extremely unlikely that an infectious disease would be evidenced in the bones.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    ^^ Glad to hear a proponent of that theory.

    Had Richard III had the putative King and brother killed the Usurper would have made much of it, even if, as was the case, they had been found illegitimate by virtue of Edward IV's marital pre-contracts. He did not.

  48. #298

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    ^^ Glad to hear a proponent of that theory.

    Had Richard III had the putative King and brother killed the Usurper would have made much of it, even if, as was the case, they had been found illegitimate by virtue of Edward IV's marital pre-contracts. He did not.
    Perhaps. That is one of the hundreds of bits of circumstantial evidence bearing on the case, but it is hardly conclusive. Richard was so accused before and after his death. But without the bodies, Henry VI could not be certain, and several purported "Princes" came forward. Henry probably wanted to keep open the option of discrediting even a true prince if one came forward. He did not want the validity of his own claim to rest on the murder of the princes, lest one show up.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    I think you mean Henry VII.

    It's true that it was in the interests of neither Richard III nor Henry VII for Edward V to live. King Henry's claim to the throne was based on conquest however rather than inheritance. His descent from Edward III was through an illegitimate line which is why marriage to Elizabeth of York was so important.

    The rose window in York Minster was made to celebrate their marriage.




  50. #300

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    [QUOTE=unloadonme;9109887]I think you mean Henry VII.

    It's true that it was in the interests of neither Richard III nor Henry VII for Edward V to live. King Henry's claim to the throne was based on conquest however rather than inheritance. His descent from Edward III was through an illegitimate line which is why marriage to Elizabeth of York was so important.[quote]
    My point was that he may not have wanted to emphasize Richatd's murder of the princes more, because he did not want his claim to be seem as based upon the murder. His claim was in his own name and by conquest, which is why he delayed marrying Elizabeth. He wanted it clear that he was King in his own right.
    As a further argument to palbert, I would point out that if he, HenryVII, were involved, he would have been even more strident in blaming Richard. There is no evidence that he doubted Richard's guilt.
    All this illustrates the difficulty if proving with circumstantial evidence. So little of it is unambiguous.

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