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  1. #251
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Charles was anticipated: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock:

    ...
    No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;
    Am an attendant lord, one that will do
    To swell a progress, start a scene or two
    Advise the prince; no doubt, an easy tool,
    Deferential, glad to be of use,
    Politic, cautious, and meticulous;
    Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse;
    At times, indeed, almost ridiculous—
    Almost, at times, the Fool.
    ...
    http://people.virginia.edu/~sfr/enam312/prufrock.html

  2. #252
    Proud to Love Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    I spotted an interesting story about Prince Charles today. Apparently he's now overtaken the future King William IV as the oldest heir to the throne since Sophia, Electress of Hanover in 1714.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...h-crowned.html
    He'll hardly get any reign at all, and even those years he does have will be spent old and frail.

  3. #253
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    This is the latest design for a tomb in Leicester Cathedral. I don't really like the design any more than I like the idea of it being in Leicester.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24159531

  4. #254
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Charles' views on architecture will preserve Tony Blair's "island theme park."

  5. #255
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    This is the latest design for a tomb in Leicester Cathedral. I don't really like the design any more than I like the idea of it being in Leicester.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24159531
    My first reaction is 'Not the old negative cross thing again. Hasn't this been done to death, already?'

    As a 'collateral descendant' lol, my vote is still for Westminster with the other Kings and Queens of England.

  6. #256
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    As a 'collateral descendant' lol, my vote is still for Westminster with the other Kings and Queens of England.
    You say that Rareboy, but I've done a spot of research on burial places:

    William I - Monastery of St Etienne, Caen, France
    William II - Winchester Cathedral
    Henry I - Reading Abbey
    Stephen - Abbey of the Holy Saviour, Faversham
    Henry II - Fontevrault Abbey, France
    Richard I - Fontevrault Abbey, France
    John - Worcester Cathedral
    Henry III - Westminster Abbey
    Edward I - Westminster Abbey
    Edward II - Gloucester Cathedral
    Edward III - Westminster Abbey
    Richard II - Westminster Abbey
    Henry IV - Canterbury Cathedral
    Henry V - Westminster Abbey
    Henry VI - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward IV - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward V - Unknown
    Richard III - Formerly Greyfriars Church, Leicester
    Henry VII - Westminster Abbey
    Henry VIII - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward VI - Westminster Abbey
    Mary I - Westminster Abbey
    Elizabeth I - Westminster Abbey
    James I - Westminster Abbey
    Charles I - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Charles II - Westminster Abbey
    James II - St Germain, Paris, France
    Mary II - Westminster Abbey
    William III - Westminster Abbey
    Anne - Westminster Abbey
    George I - Hanover, Germany
    George II - Westminster Abbey
    George III - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    George IV - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    William IV - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Victoria - Royal Mausoleum, Windsor
    Edward VII - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    George V - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward VIII - Royal Burial Ground, Windsor
    George VI - St George's Chapel, Windsor

    and you'll see that only 15 of the 40 Kings and Queens since 1066 are buried at Westminster, meaning that your argument is perhaps not as decisive as you think.

    As far as Richard III's family are concerned, his parents are both buried at Fotheringhay in Northamptonshire, his wife at Westminster Abbey and his son possibly at Sheriff Hutton near York.

  7. #257
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Thanks unloadonme

    The appropriate place now would be Windsor.

    Bear in mind Richard III was building a chapel in York and may well have intended to be buried there with his prospective bride from either Spain (Infanta Isabel of Castile and Aragon) or Portugal (Infanta Joana), both of whom descended from John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster.

  8. #258
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    You say that Rareboy, but I've done a spot of research on burial places:

    William I - Monastery of St Etienne, Caen, France
    William II - Winchester Cathedral
    Henry I - Reading Abbey
    Stephen - Abbey of the Holy Saviour, Faversham
    Henry II - Fontevrault Abbey, France
    Richard I - Fontevrault Abbey, France
    John - Worcester Cathedral
    Henry III - Westminster Abbey
    Edward I - Westminster Abbey
    Edward II - Gloucester Cathedral
    Edward III - Westminster Abbey
    Richard II - Westminster Abbey
    Henry IV - Canterbury Cathedral
    Henry V - Westminster Abbey
    Henry VI - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward IV - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward V - Unknown
    Richard III - Formerly Greyfriars Church, Leicester
    Henry VII - Westminster Abbey
    Henry VIII - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward VI - Westminster Abbey
    Mary I - Westminster Abbey
    Elizabeth I - Westminster Abbey
    James I - Westminster Abbey
    Charles I - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Charles II - Westminster Abbey
    James II - St Germain, Paris, France
    Mary II - Westminster Abbey
    William III - Westminster Abbey
    Anne - Westminster Abbey
    George I - Hanover, Germany
    George II - Westminster Abbey
    George III - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    George IV - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    William IV - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Victoria - Royal Mausoleum, Windsor
    Edward VII - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    George V - St George's Chapel, Windsor
    Edward VIII - Royal Burial Ground, Windsor
    George VI - St George's Chapel, Windsor

    and you'll see that only 15 of the 40 Kings and Queens since 1066 are buried at Westminster, meaning that your argument is perhaps not as decisive as you think.

    As far as Richard III's family are concerned, his parents are both buried at Fotheringhay in Northamptonshire, his wife at Westminster Abbey and his son possibly at Sheriff Hutton near York.
    I think he should be buried with his wife.

  9. #259
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I think he should be buried with his wife.
    His overthrow and death by the usurper was not anticipated. Had he lived he would probably have wanted to be buried with the wife who produced an heir. Queen Anne did not, their son, Edward of Middleham, predeceasing them both.

  10. #260

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Most scholars accept that Edward Vs remains are in the urn designed by Christopher Wren in Westminster Abbey.
    There is some circumstantial evidence that Richard III intended to be buried in St George's Chapel, Windsor, where Edward IV was buried, but any remaining space is needed for future monarchs.
    He did not even mark his wife's grave under the floor of Westminster Abbey, and her precise location is not known. It seems unlikely that he intended to join her. He could not now be buried in Westminster Abbey without considerable disruption.
    It seems certain that the burial will be in Leister Cathedral.
    I agree that the design above seems cheap. Some attempt to give it a medieval appearance should be made.

  11. #261
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    This is the latest design for a tomb in Leicester Cathedral. I don't really like the design any more than I like the idea of it being in Leicester.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24159531
    I think the design is stunningly beautiful. Austere, strong, and evoking timelessness.

    Upon seeing the proposal I thought first of the tombs at Fontrevaud Abbey. That is a pleasing response.

  12. #262
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    A modern design is proper, and I'd even say necessary, to confirm for future generations that he was only interred in the 21st century. I realise it is unlikely that a record made today will be lost to future generations, but who can say? If in a hundred years the Internet meets the fate of the original Library of Alexandria, a 21st century sarcophagus will help future historians confirm whatever fragments of information they might have about the events that transpired since his death. Certainly it will also help future generations appreciate this.

    It occurs to me that some feature of the design could be modified to reflect late mediaeval motifs, but I still think the design should be of the day and not a faux-mediaeval imitation.

  13. #263
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Upon seeing the proposal I thought first of the tombs at Fontrevaud Abbey.
    To be honest, the Fontevrault tombs were the last thing I thought of. To me they have little in common with what's proposed for Leicester.



    (King Henry II and Queen Eleanor)



    (Richard I)

  14. #264
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Peevish:

    Members of the Richard III Society have withdrawn funding meant for the king's tomb at Leicester Cathedral because they are unhappy with the design.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24201228

    (The funding was £40,000.)

  15. #265
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    ^ Good for them.

  16. #266
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Disappointing news about the online petition:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24230823

  17. #267
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    An interview with Philippa Langley, one of the forces behind the unearthing of Richard III.

    The unearthing of a skeleton in a Leicester car park last year caused a sensation when it was confirmed as being Richard III. But for PHILIPPA LANGLEY, who instigated the remarkable discovery, the fight to salvage the reputation of this much maligned monarch is far from over
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/...#ixzz2ftoks7Fo

  18. #268

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    In the absence of new and compelling evidence, which seems extremely unlikely, Richard's reputation is about where it is going to stay. Many people have come to realize that the evidence is circumstantial and that it is consistent with a half a dozen or so scenarios. Nevertheless, the evidence points more strongly to Richard than to the other suspects. Other than that, he does come across as one of the more reasonable, likeable and generous of the English monarchs. Without new evidence, that picture is unlikely to change.
    DNA testing of the bones in Westminster Abbey might establish that the boys are indeed Edward V and Prince Richard.
    But I can think of only one remote finding which would change the historical story. One of the possible scenarios, consistent with the existing evidence is that the boys died of natural causes, such as infectious disease. This is a distinct possibility since at that time, and continuing until the 1900s, 40% or more of the children died before adulthood. Two of the prince's siblings died of the plague.The boys were living on the very edge of the Thames--a sewer in those days--in close confinement. If one became ill, the other was exposed as well. One of the familiar bits of evidence is that the boys were seen playing outside, but then only at the window, less and less frequently. Then they were seen no more. This gradual withdrawal is more indicative of illness than an impending murder.
    BUT I think it is extremely unlikely that an infectious disease would be evidenced in the bones.

  19. #269
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    ^^ Glad to hear a proponent of that theory.

    Had Richard III had the putative King and brother killed the Usurper would have made much of it, even if, as was the case, they had been found illegitimate by virtue of Edward IV's marital pre-contracts. He did not.

  20. #270

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    ^^ Glad to hear a proponent of that theory.

    Had Richard III had the putative King and brother killed the Usurper would have made much of it, even if, as was the case, they had been found illegitimate by virtue of Edward IV's marital pre-contracts. He did not.
    Perhaps. That is one of the hundreds of bits of circumstantial evidence bearing on the case, but it is hardly conclusive. Richard was so accused before and after his death. But without the bodies, Henry VI could not be certain, and several purported "Princes" came forward. Henry probably wanted to keep open the option of discrediting even a true prince if one came forward. He did not want the validity of his own claim to rest on the murder of the princes, lest one show up.

  21. #271
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    I think you mean Henry VII.

    It's true that it was in the interests of neither Richard III nor Henry VII for Edward V to live. King Henry's claim to the throne was based on conquest however rather than inheritance. His descent from Edward III was through an illegitimate line which is why marriage to Elizabeth of York was so important.

    The rose window in York Minster was made to celebrate their marriage.




  22. #272

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    [QUOTE=unloadonme;9109887]I think you mean Henry VII.

    It's true that it was in the interests of neither Richard III nor Henry VII for Edward V to live. King Henry's claim to the throne was based on conquest however rather than inheritance. His descent from Edward III was through an illegitimate line which is why marriage to Elizabeth of York was so important.[quote]
    My point was that he may not have wanted to emphasize Richatd's murder of the princes more, because he did not want his claim to be seem as based upon the murder. His claim was in his own name and by conquest, which is why he delayed marrying Elizabeth. He wanted it clear that he was King in his own right.
    As a further argument to palbert, I would point out that if he, HenryVII, were involved, he would have been even more strident in blaming Richard. There is no evidence that he doubted Richard's guilt.
    All this illustrates the difficulty if proving with circumstantial evidence. So little of it is unambiguous.

  23. #273
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    From @Richardtoyork, 9/27:

    Judicial Review hearing the 26th November under a Divisional Court, with 3 judges presiding. ...

  24. #274
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    At 7 pages and 300 posts!

    2 October 1452




  25. #275
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III



    A cake for Richard....

  26. #276
    Proud to Love Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Happy Bday Mr. King

    Your name is clearing up

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    At 7 pages and 300 posts!
    It should not be surprising that British history attracts a lot of Americans. It's our history too by extension.

  27. #277
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The facial reconstruction of Richard III is currently on tour:

    The facial reconstruction of King Richard III, as seen on the Channel 4 documentary, ‘The King in the Car Park,’ is to go on a national tour, beginning at The Guildhall. The model was commissioned by the Richard III Society and made by Professor Caroline Wilkinson and the forensic art team at the University of Dundee.

    It was made using a 3D printing technique called stereolithography. Finishing details like the style and colour of Richard's hair and hat were taken from near contemporary portraits of the King.
    Yorkshire Museum: 19th July – 13th October 2013
    Northampton Museum and Art Gallery: 19th October – 5th January 2014
    British Museum: 11th January 2014 – 16th March 2014
    Gloucester Museum and Art Gallery: 20th March – 30th March 2014
    Sudeley Castle, Winchcombe, Cheltenham GL54 5JD: 1st April - 16th April 2014

    http://www.leicester.gov.uk/your-cou...ns/richardiii/

  28. #278
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Leanda de Lisle has just introduced her new book, The Disappeared - Richard III, Henry VII and the Princes in the Tower.

    de Lisle is an accomplished author on events of the period.

    I am trying to get publication details.

    ****

    Jadis Shadows Productions have unveiled a new play, Richard III – Now is the Winter of our Discontent.

    “Now is the winter of his discontent”… Richard Plantagenet has become a creature of legendary evil and corruption in the minds of public opinion; a hunchback of murderous ambition. Yet while the propaganda of Shakespeare’s dramatic creation has become readily accepted as fact, the gentler truth about this skilled warrior, polished courtier and able statesman is often overlooked.

    In this new, specially commissioned play another side of Richard III is examined.

    England is in bloody turmoil, brother turning against brother, father against son. A rampant battle for power rages as an audience is invited to revaluate Richard through the eyes of the strong and determined women who surrounded him; his wife, Anne Neville; the sensual dowager Queen, Elizabeth Woodville and the indomitable Margaret Beaufort, mother of the future Henry VII, matriarch of the dawning Tudor dynasty.
    Both sourced from http://www.leicester.gov.uk/your-cou...s/october2013/

  29. #279
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Interesting Palbert, thanks.

    I've just spotted reports of a chapel at Towton being built by Richard III at the time of his death. That's not far from me and I can feel an expedition coming on!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24434795

  30. #280
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    From the King Richard III Campaign, an article by David Johnson PhD, designer of the proposed tomb for the re-interment of the late King:

    Did King Richard intend to be buried in York Minster? [<Link]

    ....

    Of course, the one assertion we can make with absolute certainty is that Richard III never chose to be buried in Leicester, and the fact that he was hastily and inappropriately interred in the church of the Grey Friars is no more than a very unfortunate accident of history. Had it not been for the battle of Bosworth, he would almost certainly have been laid to rest in a beautiful and specially designed chapel in York Minster, serviced by the continuous prayers and masses of no less than one hundred chantry priests. The sheer scale of this ultimately aborted project, and its resonance with the royal chapel of Edward IV at Windsor, provides compelling evidence that England’s ‘northern’ king had set his sights on York.
    Article ©David Johnson PhD

  31. #281
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The respective petitions for York and Leicester are being submitted to the Government.

    Richard III: More than 39,000 signatures to keep king's remains in Leicester

    The internet petition was due to finish at about midday today (ed.: 12 Oct 2013), when it will be submitted to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. A rival campaign calling for the bones to be reinterred in York, which gathered 31,300 signatures, closed in September.
    http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.u...#ixzz2hhPTT37W

    Other reports say it will be presented at No. 10 Monday, 14 Oct. http://www.itv.com/news/central/upda...t-no-10-today/

  32. #282
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Leanda de Lisle has just introduced her new book, The Disappeared - Richard III, Henry VII and the Princes in the Tower.

    de Lisle is an accomplished author on events of the period.

    I am trying to get publication details.
    Leanda de Lisle informs me:

    My new book should be for sale now. It is on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. In the US the title is rather long winded (not my choice!) Tudor: Passion, Manipulation, Murder, the Story of England's most Notorious Royal Family. It covers the period 1437-1603.

  33. #283
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Thanks for keeping the thread going Palbert.

    It appears that neither petition received enough responses to trigger a debate in parliament. I guess it will be down to the Judicial Review now. They thing, as you've already posted above is that "the one assertion we can make with absolute certainty is that Richard III never chose to be buried in Leicester".

    The new book appears to be available:



    http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/tudo...=9781610393638

  34. #284

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Thanks for keeping the thread going Palbert.

    It appears that neither petition received enough responses to trigger a debate in parliament. I guess it will be down to the Judicial Review now. They thing, as you've already posted above is that "the one assertion we can make with absolute certainty is that Richard III never chose to be buried in Leicester".

    The new book appears to be available:



    http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/tudo...=9781610393638
    True, but he also did not express a preference as far as is known. Has anyone other than Leicester expressed a desire to have him? As I understand, Yorkminster supports the claim of Leister which is partly responsible for his rediscovery. Leicester Cathedral honored him with a memorial even before his remains were discovered.

  35. #285
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    True, but he also did not express a preference as far as is known. Has anyone other than Leicester expressed a desire to have him? As I understand, Yorkminster supports the claim of Leister which is partly responsible for his rediscovery. Leicester Cathedral honored him with a memorial even before his remains were discovered.
    The Dean of York supports Leicester cathedral's claim, but there again she was previously Dean of Leicester. Frankly, I don't think her views count for much. The Plantagenet Alliance, which purports to represent the living descendants of Richard's siblings, supports re-burial in York and they've just won a preliminary legal skirmish:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24578625

  36. #286
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Has anyone asked if any of this Plantagenet Alliance even knew they were descendants until Ashdown-Hill and other researchers figuratively dug them (and Richard III literally) up?

  37. #287

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    It is time for the Queen to step in and settle the question. As the legal head of the Royal family, legal heir and next of kin of Richard, and as head of the C of E, it is surely her prerogative if she should choose to exercise it.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Has anyone asked if any of this Plantagenet Alliance even knew they were descendants until Ashdown-Hill and other researchers figuratively dug them (and Richard III literally) up?
    Are there no living descendants of the Wessex kings?

  39. #289

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    ...David Johnson PhD, designer of the proposed tomb ...


    I wonder if that's gold leaf? What is that phrase on the top?
    .

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Are there no living descendants of the Wessex kings?
    Yes. Queen Elizabeth II for one.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wessex

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post


    I wonder if that's gold leaf? What is that phrase on the top?
    I think that's much more likely to be a brass plate set into the stone than gold leaf. The phrase is "Loyaulte me lie" which means "Loyalty binds me". It was Richard's personal motto.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Yes. Queen Elizabeth II for one.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wessex
    I mean who are closer than Elizabeth of York.

  43. #293

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    I'm watching one of the TV docos on the dig. Jo, one of the diggers, broke the king's skull with a mattock!
    .

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Are there no living descendants of the Wessex kings?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    I mean who are closer than Elizabeth of York.
    You've lost me! Are there any descendants of the Wessex kings who are closer than Elizabeth of York to what?

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    I'm watching one of the TV docos on the dig. Jo, one of the diggers, broke the king's skull with a mattock!
    Yes, I saw that too. Clumsy or what?

  46. #296

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The forensic bone investigators are saying his body was draped across a horse and someone with a dagger stabbed him in the rectum!
    Last edited by pat grimshaw; October 20th, 2013 at 03:48 AM.
    .

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    The forensic bone investigators are saying his body was draped across a horse and someone with a dagger stabbed him in the rectum!
    Buttocks!

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    You've lost me! Are there any descendants of the Wessex kings who are closer than Elizabeth of York to what?
    A descendant of Wessex with more Saxon blood than the Beauforts from whom Elizabeth II claims most of her ancient blood. The Plantagenets have only one link through Margaret of Wessex.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    A descendant of Wessex with more Saxon blood than the Beauforts from whom Elizabeth II claims most of her ancient blood. The Plantagenets have only one link through Margaret of Wessex.
    You've got me there. The Queen is descended from the marriage of Henry I to Matilda of Scotland who was a niece of Edgar the Ætheling. I don't think the royal line of descent particularly relies on the Beauforts though. One of the reasons Henry VII married Elizabeth of York was because her claim to the throne was stronger than his. The Queen is descended from the marriage of their daughter Margaret to James IV of Scotland.

    Have a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent..._the_Conqueror

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    The Queen is descended from the marriage of Henry I to Matilda of Scotland who was a niece of Edgar the Ætheling.
    Margaret of Wessex was mother to Matilda, and also sister to Edgar.

    I don't think the royal line of descent particularly relies on the Beauforts though.
    Right. Elizabeth of York I think descended from two of Edward III's sons, but Henry VII also had Beaufort blood, hence that's why I said most. The simple fact that Saxon blood is compounded many times in the 15th century is important, but there may be people who have even more.

    It would be more interesting to map out the House of Wessex than the Plantagenets, if you don't believe in William's right of conquest.

    Ah, the Tudors also had Mortimer blood, so that's three sons of Edward III that Elizabeth is descended from.
    Last edited by Alnitak; October 20th, 2013 at 05:59 AM.

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