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  1. #201
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Wow! An estimated one million people related to Richard III alive today. I'll have to re-examine the family tree.

    Thanks for posting Palbert.

    Leicester is a complete dump, so let's hope the judge finds in favour of York.

  2. #202
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    ^ I'm one of them. About 5000 people in my family are related to him. Dollars Pounds to doughnuts, you are as well.

  3. #203
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Wow! An estimated one million people related to Richard III alive today. I'll have to re-examine the family tree.

    Thanks for posting Palbert.

    Leicester is a complete dump, so let's hope the judge finds in favour of York.
    Unraised question: Whether Leicester or York, will Queen Anne (Neville) be translated from Westminster Abby to be beside him? I realize Westminster is already chock-a-block and there would no room for Richard.

  4. #204

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    I'm sure I'm not related, but I think one particular JUBber looks a lot like the reconstruction.

  5. #205
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Unraised question: Whether Leicester or York, will Queen Anne (Neville) be translated from Westminster Abby to be beside him? I realize Westminster is already chock-a-block and there would no room for Richard.
    I've not heard that subject mentioned. I imagine the Abbey authorities would need tbe permission of HMQ for the exhumation of royal remains.

  6. #206
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Historyextra.com, the official website of the BBC History Magazine, is running a poll:

    Leicester Cathedral, York Minster, or Westminster Abbey.

  7. #207
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by jupiter4686 View Post
    whs he????????????????????????
    Richard III was King of England for two years, from 1483 until his death in 1485 in the Battle of Bosworth Field. He was the last king of the House of York and the last of the Plantagenet dynasty. Wikipedia
    In September 2012 what was thought to be his body was found in what appeared a hastily dug grave.

    On 4 February 2013, the University of Leicester confirmed that the skeleton was beyond reasonable doubt that of King Richard III. This conclusion was based on mitochondrial DNA evidence, soil analysis, and dental tests, as well as physical characteristics of the skeleton which are highly consistent with contemporary accounts of Richard's appearance.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_of_England

  8. #208
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Historyextra.com, the official website of the BBC History Magazine, is running a poll ...
    Thanks for this. Unfortunately the poll doesn't seem to want to work for me, so I can't vote for York!

  9. #209
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Thanks for this. Unfortunately the poll doesn't seem to want to work for me, so I can't vote for York!
    Without the embed:

    http://www.historyextra.com/poll/whe...-iii-be-buried

  10. #210
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Nope, it's just the same. The page opens, but the poll section is blank. Thanks anyway.

  11. #211
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    In an unrelated excavation within Lincoln Castle, archaeologists have discovered a sarcophagus thought to date from around 900AD which they think contains "somebody terribly important", possibly a Saxon king or bishop.

    Full story here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-23817713

  12. #212
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Historyextra.com, the official website of the BBC History Magazine, is running a poll:



    Leicester Cathedral, York Minster, or Westminster Abbey.
    I voted for Westminster in order to solve the problem once and for all.

  13. #213
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I voted for Westminster in order to solve the problem once and for all.
    The link's working now.

    York's ahead with 55% of the votes, Leicester has 34% and Westminster 9%.

  14. #214
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    In an unrelated excavation within Lincoln Castle, archaeologists have discovered a sarcophagus thought to date from around 900AD which they think contains "somebody terribly important", possibly a Saxon king or bishop.

    Full story here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-23817713
    Well that's cool. I'll look forward to visiting this when we're back in England.

  15. #215
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Well he also claimed to be Rex Francorum. Bury him in Dunkirk.

  16. #216
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    An HM Government e-petition to re-inter Richard III at York Minster.

    For the mortal remains of England's last Plantagenet King, and the last King to die in battle, recently discovered under a Council car-park in Leicester, to be re-interred with due dignity and respect in York Minster. He was the last King of the House of York and it is recorded that he was popular in and fond of the North and York in particular where he was regarded with much love and affection. It will also place him geographically closer to the remains of his son, Edward the Prince of Wales, whose remains lie in Sherriff Hutton church.
    http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/38772

    Closes 9/24/2013.

  17. #217
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    An HM Government e-petition to re-inter Richard III at York Minster.



    http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/38772

    Closes 9/24/2013.
    Thanks for posting the link. I've just signed up.

  18. #218
    Proud to Love Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    In an unrelated excavation within Lincoln Castle, archaeologists have discovered a sarcophagus thought to date from around 900AD which they think contains "somebody terribly important", possibly a Saxon king or bishop.

    Full story here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-23817713
    That would be remarkable because Lincolnshire was part of Danish Mercia (Danelaw) in 900. At the time, England was being savaged by war between Wessex and the Danes. Why would a Saxon be buried there? Certainly no one from Wessex.
    Last edited by Alnitak; August 31st, 2013 at 05:08 PM.

  19. #219
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    That would be remarkable because Lincolnshire was part of Danish Mercia (Danelaw) in 900. At the time, England was being savaged by war between Wessex and the Danes. Why would a Saxon be buried there? Certainly no one from Wessex.
    That's a good point which I'm sure the archaeology will answer in due course. The dating is only approximate. If the burial was from 50 years earlier, I doubt there'd be a problem.

  20. #220
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The man was a child-killer , nuff said .

  21. #221
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Well, today we learned that his majesty was infected with intestinal roundworms at the time of this death and that he spoke with a UK West Midlands accent.

    I'm a little dubious of the accent claim, but the roundworm infestation seems believable.

  22. #222
    Proud to Love Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
    The man was a child-killer , nuff said .
    All the proof you need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard III
    "I must be married to my brother's daughter,
    Or else my kingdom stands on brittle glass.
    Murder her brothers, and then marry her!
    ...
    Foes to my rest and my sweet sleep's disturbers
    Are they that I would have thee deal upon:
    Tyrrel, I mean those bastards in the Tower."

    http://shakespeare.mit.edu/richardiii/full.html
    If Shakespeare said it, it must be true!

  23. #223
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    .... If Shakespeare said it, it must be true!
    History as seen by the Tudor besotted eyes of Polydore Vergil and Sir Thomas More.

  24. #224
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    History as seen by the Tudor besotted eyes of Polydore Vergil and Sir Thomas More.
    The Tudors were also Lancastrian through the Henry VII's maternal grandfather.

  25. #225
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    True, but the Tudors couldn't get away from the fact that Henry VII acquired the throne by conquest. His line of descent from Edward III unarguably gave him less right to the throne than Richard III had had. The Tudor dynasty therefore had to employ what would these days be called spin to blacken the reputation of their predecessors and justify their own position. It would have been unthinkable for Shakespeare to be allowed to publish plays which portrayed a different version of the truth.

  26. #226
    Proud to Love Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    True, but the Tudors couldn't get away from the fact that Henry VII acquired the throne by conquest. His line of descent from Edward III unarguably gave him less right to the throne than Richard III had had. The Tudor dynasty therefore had to employ what would these days be called spin to blacken the reputation of their predecessors and justify their own position. It would have been unthinkable for Shakespeare to be allowed to publish plays which portrayed a different version of the truth.
    Agreed. Elizabeth's censors would have never let a fair view go to print, and Shakespeare would not have wanted to incur her notorious wrath. It may have even been published to curry favor.

  27. #227
    JUB Addict Lestatnj's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Fascinating. Since technically Henry VII was an usurper, he had to marry Elizabeth of York. She was the real heir to the throne, after the deaths of Edward V & young Richard, Duke of York (the Princes in the Tower). She should have been Elizabeth I, with Henry Tudor as her consort. (Fat chance, with his ego!!)
    Last edited by Lestatnj; September 5th, 2013 at 01:13 PM.

  28. #228
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestatnj View Post
    Fascinating. Since technically Henry VII was an usurper, he had to marry Elizabeth of York. She was the real heir to the throne, after the deaths of Edward V & young Richard, Duke of York (the Princes in the Tower). She should have been Elizabeth I, with Henry Tudor as her consort. (Fat chance, with his ego!!)
    Except that Elizabeth of York was illegitimate by virtue of the Earl of March's (later, Edward IV) pre-marital contract with one other than Elizabeth Woodville (later, Edward IV's Queen Consort).

  29. #229
    JUB Addict Lestatnj's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Well, they're all "technically" moot, since along with Henry VII & Richard III, both Edward IV & Henry IV were also usurpers. Why I find English History makes fascinating reading

  30. #230
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Add as usurper Henry Bolingbroke (later, Henry IV) who deposed Richard II.

  31. #231

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Except that Elizabeth of York was illegitimate by virtue of the Earl of March's (later, Edward IV) pre-marital contract with one other than Elizabeth Woodville (later, Edward IV's Queen Consort).
    The legitimacy of Edward IV was also questioned, since his legal father, Richard Duke of York was said to have been fighting in France while his mother Cecily Neville, had a dalliance with an alleged archer.
    It is almost easier to list the ones who were not usurpers. William I by conquest. Henry I was not next in line but was quick to act when William II was suspiciously shot with an arrow while hunting. Empress Matilda should have succeeded him, but Stephan usurped the Crown. Later, John was not next in line but was in control. Edward II was deposed and Edward III became King while his mother and Mortomer ruled.

  32. #232

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    That should read Mortimer.
    Will it be a Catholic ceremony? Probably, but with Anglican participation. It will be managed by the Earl Marshall, the Duke of Norfolk, who is Catholic, and who is a direct descendant of John Howard, the First Duke of Norfolk, who was loyal to Richard and died with him at Bosworth. The Earl cannot cause it to be Catholic, and it may be a bit awkward for him, but it seems likely that he will encourage a Catholic ceremony by consensus. I doubt if the Anglicans will seek a non Catholic ceremony, but an ecumenical one.
    Last edited by Benvolio; September 5th, 2013 at 04:56 PM.

  33. #233
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tudor-tomb-3d.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	61.8 KB 
ID:	983621

    The University of Leicester (which seems to be on a roll) is working with experts to visually reconstruct Tudor era tombs. They are using 3D scanning.

    So far we have Thomas Howard's, 3rd Duke of Norfolk.

    http://www.heritagedaily.com/2013/09...scanning/98927

    I would love to see the Thetford Priory exhibit.

  34. #234
    Proud to Love Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestatnj View Post
    Fascinating. Since technically Henry VII was an usurper, he had to marry Elizabeth of York. She was the real heir to the throne, after the deaths of Edward V & young Richard, Duke of York (the Princes in the Tower). She should have been Elizabeth I, with Henry Tudor as her consort. (Fat chance, with his ego!!)
    Elizabeth of York herself and of course her father Edward IV had Lancastrian blood through the Beaufort line (though barred from the throne by an act of Henry Bolingbroke).

    A supplement to the Tudor dynasty was uniting Wales and England by blood as Henry himself was descended from a Welsh prince.
    Last edited by Alnitak; September 7th, 2013 at 09:08 AM.

  35. #235
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tudor-tomb-3d.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	61.8 KB 
ID:	983621

    The University of Leicester (which seems to be on a roll) is working with experts to visually reconstruct Tudor era tombs. They are using 3D scanning.

    So far we have Thomas Howard's, 3rd Duke of Norfolk.

    http://www.heritagedaily.com/2013/09...scanning/98927

    I would love to see the Thetford Priory exhibit.
    I've been to Framlingham to see those tombs in the parish church. They're quite something.


  36. #236
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    This is the second one:


  37. #237
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    A 4 minute video.

    A Look at Richard III's connections with Yorkshire and why he should be re-interred in York Minster.


    (Tweeted by @Richardtoyork)

  38. #238
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Richard III Book of Loyal Supporters

    Our first offer is a very unique idea of the chance to add your name to our take on a Book Of Condolence - your name in Richard III's Book Of Loyal Supporters!
    http://yorkshirerose.simpl.com/ (2 donation)

  39. #239
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Thanks for those Palbert. I'm afraid I found the video rather slow, but was pleased to see Middleham Castle shown. I've visited it a few times and climbed to the top of the tower.

    I think I'm over 500 years too late for a book of condolence. Nice little earner for someone that!

  40. #240
    JUB Addict Lestatnj's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Add as usurper Henry Bolingbroke (later, Henry IV) who deposed Richard II.
    I already had. The post directly above yours.

  41. #241
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Here's some background on the Plantagenet Alliance:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-23929989

  42. #242
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    I know I have no dog in this fight, but hope Leicester prevails.

    Richard III arrived at Bosworth a proud man; he fought as a King and proud man; let him be remembered where he was betrayed by, among others, the city of York, which sent only 80 men to his royal array. Ashdown-Hill, The Last Days of Richard III and the Fate of His DNA, The History Press (2013)(p. 67).

    From circumstances it has been discerned that the King was betrayed by Henry Northumberland, 4th Earl of Percy, who was slow to advance. Buttressing the fact of betrayal, posted to the tent of Sir John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, "his staunchest supporter," was the couplet:

    Jockey of Norfolk, be not too bold
    For Dickson thy master is bought and sold.

    Seward, The Wars of the Roses, Carroll & Graf (2007)(p. 403)

    As late as the 1530's it was said in the Commons "Although he did evil, yet in his time were many good Acts made." (Ashdown-Hill, Ch. 12, fn. 8.)

    Were I meaningfully a descendant I would have known it before someone else worked out the family tree and disinterred the King.

  43. #243
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Palbert, you got that back to front. It was Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry...Northumberland

  44. #244
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Palbert, you got that back to front. It was Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry...Northumberland
    Thanks. Got it wrong in the melee.

  45. #245
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Were I meaningfully a descendant I would have known it before someone else worked out the family tree and disinterred the King.
    I wonder if, as a first cousin 16x removed, I have a vote in this.......

  46. #246
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I wonder if, as a first cousin 16x removed, I have a vote in this.......
    You can break any ties.

    And, I give you the Aquitaine.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    From The Post Hole, the student-run archaeology journal, University of York:

    Identifying Richard III – an interview with Dr Turi King

    In light of the recent discovery of Richard III, Dr Turi King, lecturer in genetics and archaeology at the University of Leicester, talks about her involvement in the research project that found England’s final Plantagenet king in this exclusive interview with The Post Hole.
    http://www.theposthole.org/read/article/216 (text)(pdf-able)

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    I've posted about this already in the "If You Were An Archaeologist" thread, but I can't resist starting a dedicated thread in view of the latest developments.



    Richard III was the last Yorkist King of England. His reign only lasted two years (1483-85) and his death at the Battle of Bosworth Field marked the end of the Wars of the Roses and the end of the medieval period of English history.

    Over 500 years later, Richard is still considered controversial because of his supposed complicity in the deaths of his nephews King Edward V and Richard, Duke of York (aka the Princes in the Tower). There's no historical evidence about the truth of those claims one way or the other. Much of the speculation is based on William Shakespeare's play Richard III, but Shakespeare was writing during the Tudor period when criticising the earlier Yorkists was politically expected.

    Anyway, Richard III was buried beneath the choir in Greyfriars Friary, Leicester which was later demolished during Henry VIII's reformation and its precise whereabouts lost. There's currently an archaeological excavation in a car park in Leicester which has located the church and, it's been announced today, found human remains. Not only that, but a curvature of the spine, a skull injury and an embedded arrowhead are all consistent with what's known about Richard and his death. The archaeologists have DNA from a living descendant of Richard's sister and will be testing the bones hoping for a match.

    For history buffs like me, this is very exciting stuff. Richard III is the only English monarch since 1066 to have no known grave. If the tests show that the remains are Richard's, he'll apparently be reburied in Leicester Cathedral although personally I feel there would be more suitable places, one being York Minster.

    Some links for anyone I haven't bored into submission:

    BBC News - Richard III dig: 'Strong evidence' bones are lost king

    Richard III of England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Princes in the Tower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Thanks for the links.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    From The Post Hole, the student-run archaeology journal, University of York
    Very interesting, thanks for posting that Palbert.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pcp3t3 View Post
    Thanks for the links.
    You're most welcome.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    I spotted an interesting story about Prince Charles today. Apparently he's now overtaken the future King William IV as the oldest heir to the throne since Sophia, Electress of Hanover in 1714.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...h-crowned.html

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