His Late Majesty King Richard III

[JockBoy87]

In what was was he a hero?

There were some reforms in criminal law and the printing press during his short reign.

It also isn't entirely clear if he was guilty of murdering the princes, even though some circumstantial evidence is strong. I subscribe to presumption of innocence.

[Benvolio]

The circumstantial evidence of the Princes death is almost equally consistent with 5 or more other theories: Henry Tudor, Duke of Buckingham, Lord Stanley, disease, or one or both survived. There are probably others I do not know about.

[loveguys72]

If Richard didn't do in the princes, Henry Tudor most certainly would have. Once Edward IV died, those boys were doomed.

[unloadonme]

Okay in other news, my guy has joined the "Richard was misunderstood and maligned" camp.

So, he's a Ricardian!

In what was was he a hero?

There were some reforms in criminal law and the printing press during his short reign.

Richard III's reign only lasted two years, so it would be surprising if he achieved much. On the legal front specifically, he introduced a system of bail which remains the basis of what we use today. Additionally, he was responsible for the introduction of the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

It also isn't entirely clear if he was guilty of murdering the princes, even though some circumstantial evidence is strong. I subscribe to presumption of innocence.

Funny you should say that!

[unloadonme]

If Richard didn't do in the princes, Henry Tudor most certainly would have. Once Edward IV died, those boys were doomed.

Not necessarily. There are examples of Kings at that period succeeding to the throne when minors and not immediately disappearing; Edward III was 13, Richard II was 10 and Henry VI was only 8 months old. There may have been others, those three are all I can think of at this time of the morning!

[JockBoy87]

Not necessarily. There are examples of Kings at that period succeeding to the throne when minors and not immediately disappearing; Edward III was 13, Richard II was 10 and Henry VI was only 8 months old. There may have been others, those three are all I can think of at this time of the morning!

Edward III had too many kids.

[Keeland]

Victoria, that little minx, spat them out like watermelon seeds.

[JockBoy87]

Victoria, that little minx, spat them out like watermelon seeds.

Victoria wedded the UK to Europe and her progeny aren't at each other's necks vying for the crown.

[rareboy]

Check out the curvature of the spine.....this had to have been uncomfortable.

[Keeland]

Victoria wedded the UK to Europe and her progeny aren't at each other's necks vying for the crown.

Just wait.

Prince Charles in the library with a candlestick.

[JockBoy87]

Check out the curvature of the spine.....this had to have been uncomfortable.

My coworker had it and it seems like she was in more pain from the surgery and therapy than the scoliosis.

Just wait.

Prince Charles in the library with a candlestick.

Well it would be a mess because there are thousands of living descendants of Sophia of Hanover.

[Benvolio]

Not necessarily. There are examples of Kings at that period succeeding to the throne when minors and not immediately disappearing; Edward III was 13, Richard II was 10 and Henry VI was only 8 months old. There may have been others, those three are all I can think of at this time of the morning!

Henry VI was king of England AND France at 8 months. Mary was Queen of Scots at 1 week.

[Benvolio]

The most interesting thing about the reconstruction is the prominent jaw, which does not show in the paintings of him--none from life. The Hapsburgs were famous for the increasingly protruding jaw, apparently a result of inbreeding. Google Charles V and Phillip II to see it. Richard was not a Hapsburg, but he and Charles V and Phillip II had a common ancestor, John of Gaunt; Charles and Phillip descended three times each from John. Makes you wonder where the jaw originally came from.
Also, he bears very little resemblance to paintings of his brother, Edward VI reminding us of the possibility that Edward was illegitimate, as commented on earlier in this thread.

[star-warrior]

Historical painting of Richard III



Reconstructed face




Farquaad from Shrek

[JockBoy87]

The most interesting thing about the reconstruction is the prominent jaw, which does not show in the paintings of him--none from life. The Hapsburgs were famous for the increasingly protruding jaw, apparently a result of inbreeding. Google Charles V and Phillip II to see it. Richard was not a Hapsburg, but he and Charles V and Phillip II had a common ancestor, John of Gaunt; Charles and Phillip descended three times each from John. Makes you wonder where the jaw originally came from.
Also, he bears very little resemblance to paintings of his brother, Edward VI reminding us of the possibility that Edward was illegitimate, as commented on earlier in this thread.

Interesting observation on mandibular prognathism, but I wonder if it's not a common enough condition to make a convincing link.

[unloadonme]

Edward III had too many kids.

Arguably he did. That's what led to the conflict which ultimately cost his great-great-grandson Richard III his life. It's interesting how many people are able to trace their ancestry back to Edward III.

[unloadonme]

The most interesting thing about the reconstruction is the prominent jaw, which does not show in the paintings of him--none from life. The Hapsburgs were famous for the increasingly protruding jaw, apparently a result of inbreeding. Google Charles V and Phillip II to see it. Richard was not a Hapsburg, but he and Charles V and Phillip II had a common ancestor, John of Gaunt; Charles and Phillip descended three times each from John. Makes you wonder where the jaw originally came from.
Also, he bears very little resemblance to paintings of his brother, Edward VI reminding us of the possibility that Edward was illegitimate, as commented on earlier in this thread.

I thought the reconstruction was recognisably the Richard from the painting.

[pat grimshaw]

Non-regal bones are being dug up in London



http://www.london24.com/news/transpo..._dig_1_1979817

[bankside]

I thought the reconstruction was recognisably the Richard from the painting.

Agreed. The jaw as well. I might have said that any painting in his day might have been subject to being "airbrushed" but I don't even buy that: it just looks like him.

[Benvolio]

Agreed. The jaw as well. I might have said that any painting in his day might have been subject to being "airbrushed" but I don't even buy that: it just looks like him.

It does look like him, except his jaw seems to me to be less jutting in the painting than in the reconstruction. The painting, as I recall, is said to be copied from an original,now lost. In the next generation, the Hapsburg jaw would have well known and the artist may have consciously shortened it.

[unloadonme]

This story is still running. The main bone of contention (excuse the pun) is whether the reburial should be in Leicester Cathedral or York Minster.

Leicester plan to bury him under a plain slab (a ledger stone) which is exercising the Richard III Society who would like something more ornate. There's a petition seeking reburial in York which has considerably more signatures than the Leicester petition and it's claimed that Richard III himself desired a York burial. In York, the Minster Police (yes, York Minster has its own police force) have been called in because the Dean of York has received threatening letters over her (yes, astonishingly, her!) support for Leicester's case. The Dean of York was previously Dean of Leicester and is seen as something of a cuckoo in the nest.

The stories keep referring to Richard III's descendants which is misleading as there aren't any.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-21768730
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-21761540

[Benvolio]

Recent Royal burial have been with the ledger stone in the floor. In particular, King George VI, the Queen Mother Elizabeth, and Princess Margaret. Edward VIII and Wallis are in the Royal Burial Ground at Frogmore with flat stones covering the graves, as are other members of the Royal Family. Many Kings and Queens have ledger stones, including Henry 8 and Charles 1.Others have only floor tiles, including James 1, George 2d.

[eddielee]

Since the Richard III society has done so much to try to improve the bad image of the King, perhaps they should have the final say in the matter. Most people still view King Richard III as a hunchbacked monster who ordered his nephews murdered in the tower. Perhaps he was not a monster.

[unloadonme]

Richard III may or may not have murdered his nephews, but, even if he did, it wouldn't have been that unusual for the time in which he lived. Edward II was murdered in Berkeley Castle, probably on the orders of his wife. Richard II was almost certainly murdered in Pontefract Castle by his cousin Henry IV. Edward IV had Henry VI murdered in the Tower.

During the Tudor period, various Plantagenet heirs were executed to prevent challenges for the throne; Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury was one of them. Also, of course, Henry VIII had two of his wives executed and Elizabeth I executed her cousin Mary Queen of Scots.

It just goes to show that Richard III shouldn't necessarily be judged by twenty-first century values.

[unloadonme]

Now the Roman Catholics are getting in on the act!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-21786634

[Benvolio]

Of course it should be a Catholic ceremony with participation by Anglican clergy. Or perhaps vice versa.

[Keeland]

No one gives a tinker's damn about reburying bones that ancient of anyone who wasn't royalty. But if the murdering son of a bitch was a king, the bones must be given a "proper" burial, and one of the "true" church, whatever that means.

Humanity still bends its collective knee to some asshole king dead for centuries.

[unloadonme]

No one gives a tinker's damn about reburying bones that ancient of anyone who wasn't royalty. But if the murdering son of a bitch was a king, the bones must be given a "proper" burial, and one of the "true" church, whatever that means.

Humanity still bends its collective knee to some asshole king dead for centuries.

If you don't wish to attend the ceremony, I'm sure you'll be excused.

[Benvolio]

It is more a matter of historical interest than of religion. Nor is it a question of which religion is true, if any, but of which religion was his.

[bankside]

Oh, put him back in the same parking lot if they're going to fight over the bones….

I'd think it's impossible that he wouldn't have had a funeral, so all the commending-of-his-soul and imploring and beseeching should have been taken care of already. Does a simple reinterment require all the same falderal?

Here: why not ask the next of kin? (presumably the guy they took the cheek swab from to show he was in the same genetic line)

[Benvolio]

More likely the ultimate decision will be made by his legal heiress, Queen Elizabeth II. Of course, this is unecessary, but there will be a huge demand for tickets to the historic event, and it will probably be on TV.

[pat grimshaw]

Now the Roman Catholics are getting in on the act!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-21786634

Yes I was slightly shocked last week when Catholic referred to Thomas More as a hero of HIS church.

[palbert]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...-under-1759973

It appears car park knights are popping up like crocus.

The grave of a medieval knight and the foundations of a monastery built by a former king of Scotland have been found under an old city car park.

[Keeland]

Overknight parking allowed?

[unloadonme]

An interesting development. Human remains which are possibly those of King Alfred the Great have been exhumed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-21939274

[unloadonme]

The latest on Richard III. Descendants of his sister are seeking Judicial Review of the decision to rebury in Leicester. They too prefer York.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21936327

[palbert]

For an in-depth examination of the "Princes in the Tower" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes_in_the_Tower) you will benefit from Josephine Tey's 1951 novel The Daughter of Time, available from Amazon (Oxford City Press 2011 reprint):

The Daughter of Time is a 1951 detective novel by Josephine Tey, concerning a modern police officer's investigation into the alleged crimes of King Richard III of England. It was the last book Tey published in her lifetime, shortly before her death.
....

On its publication Anthony Boucher called the book "one of the permanent classics in the detective field.... one of the best, not of the year, but of all time". Dorothy B. Hughes also praised it, saying it is "not only one of the most important mysteries of the year, but of all years of mystery".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daughter_of_Time

Also examined is the Titulus Regius, by which Richard III assumed the Crown, and which Henry VII took great pains to extinguish. (Only one copy survives,) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titulus_Regius

[palbert]

Note: Unfortunately the picture on the cover of The Daughter of Time appears to be that of Edward IV!

[unloadonme]

Note: Unfortunately the picture on the cover of The Daughter of Time appears to be that of Edward IV!

Depends on the edition. This one's Richard III:



as is this (which is the edition I have):

[JockBoy87]

Arguably he did. That's what led to the conflict which ultimately cost his great-great-grandson Richard III his life. It's interesting how many people are able to trace their ancestry back to Edward III.

Then there was Charlotte of Mecklenburg...

[bankside]

Then there was Charlotte of Mecklenburg...

Yes, Charlotte had a veritable web of children. And a very...sturdy...face, if the paintings are a good likeness.

[unloadonme]

Then there was Charlotte of Mecklenburg...

Yes, Charlotte had a veritable web of children. And a very...sturdy...face, if the paintings are a good likeness.

Indeed. Amongst the descendants of George III and Queen Charlotte are Elizabeth II and Prime Minister David Cameron. I was going to add Mayor of London Boris Johnson, but he's only a descendant of George II.

[unloadonme]

Interesting to see that there are to be further excavations at the Greyfriars site in Leicester.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-22282722

[JockBoy87]

Indeed. Amongst the descendants of George III and Queen Charlotte are Elizabeth II and Prime Minister David Cameron. I was going to add Mayor of London Boris Johnson, but he's only a descendant of George II.

I also understand that George III was quite a faithful husband.

[unloadonme]

I also understand that George III was quite a faithful husband.

I think 15 children is evidence of that!

[JockBoy87]

I think 15 children is evidence of that!

And 13 lived to adulthood? Good stock too!

[palbert]

My DirecTV package didnt allow me to see The King's Skeketon: Richard III Revealed, which in the US was broadcast on the Smithsonian Channel.

Does anyone know when and where it will be on DVD.

[unloadonme]

No idea I'm afraid.

This is a good picture of Richard III's reconstructed face being inspected by his 17th great-nephew, Michael Ibsen.

[unloadonme]

And now the reconstruction is to go on tour!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-22322756

[unloadonme]

Finally, Messrs Sue, Grabbit and Runne are on the scene:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-22371814