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  1. #151
    JockBoy87
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    In what was was he a hero?
    There were some reforms in criminal law and the printing press during his short reign.

    It also isn't entirely clear if he was guilty of murdering the princes, even though some circumstantial evidence is strong. I subscribe to presumption of innocence.
    Last edited by JockBoy87; February 5th, 2013 at 07:06 PM.

  2. #152

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The circumstantial evidence of the Princes death is almost equally consistent with 5 or more other theories: Henry Tudor, Duke of Buckingham, Lord Stanley, disease, or one or both survived. There are probably others I do not know about.

  3. #153
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    If Richard didn't do in the princes, Henry Tudor most certainly would have. Once Edward IV died, those boys were doomed.

  4. #154
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Okay in other news, my guy has joined the "Richard was misunderstood and maligned" camp.
    So, he's a Ricardian!

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    In what was was he a hero?
    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    There were some reforms in criminal law and the printing press during his short reign.
    Richard III's reign only lasted two years, so it would be surprising if he achieved much. On the legal front specifically, he introduced a system of bail which remains the basis of what we use today. Additionally, he was responsible for the introduction of the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    It also isn't entirely clear if he was guilty of murdering the princes, even though some circumstantial evidence is strong. I subscribe to presumption of innocence.
    Funny you should say that!
    Last edited by unloadonme; February 6th, 2013 at 12:01 AM.

  5. #155
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by loveguys72 View Post
    If Richard didn't do in the princes, Henry Tudor most certainly would have. Once Edward IV died, those boys were doomed.
    Not necessarily. There are examples of Kings at that period succeeding to the throne when minors and not immediately disappearing; Edward III was 13, Richard II was 10 and Henry VI was only 8 months old. There may have been others, those three are all I can think of at this time of the morning!

  6. #156
    JockBoy87
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Not necessarily. There are examples of Kings at that period succeeding to the throne when minors and not immediately disappearing; Edward III was 13, Richard II was 10 and Henry VI was only 8 months old. There may have been others, those three are all I can think of at this time of the morning!
    Edward III had too many kids.

  7. #157
    Keeland
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Victoria, that little minx, spat them out like watermelon seeds.

  8. #158
    JockBoy87
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeland View Post
    Victoria, that little minx, spat them out like watermelon seeds.
    Victoria wedded the UK to Europe and her progeny aren't at each other's necks vying for the crown.

  9. #159
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III



    Check out the curvature of the spine.....this had to have been uncomfortable.

  10. #160
    Keeland
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Victoria wedded the UK to Europe and her progeny aren't at each other's necks vying for the crown.
    Just wait.

    Prince Charles in the library with a candlestick.

  11. #161
    JockBoy87
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post

    Check out the curvature of the spine.....this had to have been uncomfortable.
    My coworker had it and it seems like she was in more pain from the surgery and therapy than the scoliosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeland View Post
    Just wait.

    Prince Charles in the library with a candlestick.
    Well it would be a mess because there are thousands of living descendants of Sophia of Hanover.
    Last edited by JockBoy87; February 6th, 2013 at 04:56 AM.

  12. #162

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Not necessarily. There are examples of Kings at that period succeeding to the throne when minors and not immediately disappearing; Edward III was 13, Richard II was 10 and Henry VI was only 8 months old. There may have been others, those three are all I can think of at this time of the morning!
    Henry VI was king of England AND France at 8 months. Mary was Queen of Scots at 1 week.

  13. #163

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The most interesting thing about the reconstruction is the prominent jaw, which does not show in the paintings of him--none from life. The Hapsburgs were famous for the increasingly protruding jaw, apparently a result of inbreeding. Google Charles V and Phillip II to see it. Richard was not a Hapsburg, but he and Charles V and Phillip II had a common ancestor, John of Gaunt; Charles and Phillip descended three times each from John. Makes you wonder where the jaw originally came from.
    Also, he bears very little resemblance to paintings of his brother, Edward VI reminding us of the possibility that Edward was illegitimate, as commented on earlier in this thread.

  14. #164
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Historical painting of Richard III



    Reconstructed face




    Farquaad from Shrek



  15. #165
    JockBoy87
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The most interesting thing about the reconstruction is the prominent jaw, which does not show in the paintings of him--none from life. The Hapsburgs were famous for the increasingly protruding jaw, apparently a result of inbreeding. Google Charles V and Phillip II to see it. Richard was not a Hapsburg, but he and Charles V and Phillip II had a common ancestor, John of Gaunt; Charles and Phillip descended three times each from John. Makes you wonder where the jaw originally came from.
    Also, he bears very little resemblance to paintings of his brother, Edward VI reminding us of the possibility that Edward was illegitimate, as commented on earlier in this thread.
    Interesting observation on mandibular prognathism, but I wonder if it's not a common enough condition to make a convincing link.

  16. #166
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Edward III had too many kids.
    Arguably he did. That's what led to the conflict which ultimately cost his great-great-grandson Richard III his life. It's interesting how many people are able to trace their ancestry back to Edward III.

  17. #167
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The most interesting thing about the reconstruction is the prominent jaw, which does not show in the paintings of him--none from life. The Hapsburgs were famous for the increasingly protruding jaw, apparently a result of inbreeding. Google Charles V and Phillip II to see it. Richard was not a Hapsburg, but he and Charles V and Phillip II had a common ancestor, John of Gaunt; Charles and Phillip descended three times each from John. Makes you wonder where the jaw originally came from.
    Also, he bears very little resemblance to paintings of his brother, Edward VI reminding us of the possibility that Edward was illegitimate, as commented on earlier in this thread.
    I thought the reconstruction was recognisably the Richard from the painting.

  18. #168

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Non-regal bones are being dug up in London



    http://www.london24.com/news/transpo..._dig_1_1979817

  19. #169
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    I thought the reconstruction was recognisably the Richard from the painting.
    Agreed. The jaw as well. I might have said that any painting in his day might have been subject to being "airbrushed" but I don't even buy that: it just looks like him.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  20. #170

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Agreed. The jaw as well. I might have said that any painting in his day might have been subject to being "airbrushed" but I don't even buy that: it just looks like him.
    It does look like him, except his jaw seems to me to be less jutting in the painting than in the reconstruction. The painting, as I recall, is said to be copied from an original,now lost. In the next generation, the Hapsburg jaw would have well known and the artist may have consciously shortened it.
    Last edited by Benvolio; March 16th, 2013 at 10:40 AM.

  21. #171
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    This story is still running. The main bone of contention (excuse the pun) is whether the reburial should be in Leicester Cathedral or York Minster.

    Leicester plan to bury him under a plain slab (a ledger stone) which is exercising the Richard III Society who would like something more ornate. There's a petition seeking reburial in York which has considerably more signatures than the Leicester petition and it's claimed that Richard III himself desired a York burial. In York, the Minster Police (yes, York Minster has its own police force) have been called in because the Dean of York has received threatening letters over her (yes, astonishingly, her!) support for Leicester's case. The Dean of York was previously Dean of Leicester and is seen as something of a cuckoo in the nest.

    The stories keep referring to Richard III's descendants which is misleading as there aren't any.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-21768730
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-21761540

  22. #172

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Recent Royal burial have been with the ledger stone in the floor. In particular, King George VI, the Queen Mother Elizabeth, and Princess Margaret. Edward VIII and Wallis are in the Royal Burial Ground at Frogmore with flat stones covering the graves, as are other members of the Royal Family. Many Kings and Queens have ledger stones, including Henry 8 and Charles 1.Others have only floor tiles, including James 1, George 2d.

  23. #173
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Since the Richard III society has done so much to try to improve the bad image of the King, perhaps they should have the final say in the matter. Most people still view King Richard III as a hunchbacked monster who ordered his nephews murdered in the tower. Perhaps he was not a monster.

  24. #174
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Richard III may or may not have murdered his nephews, but, even if he did, it wouldn't have been that unusual for the time in which he lived. Edward II was murdered in Berkeley Castle, probably on the orders of his wife. Richard II was almost certainly murdered in Pontefract Castle by his cousin Henry IV. Edward IV had Henry VI murdered in the Tower.

    During the Tudor period, various Plantagenet heirs were executed to prevent challenges for the throne; Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury was one of them. Also, of course, Henry VIII had two of his wives executed and Elizabeth I executed her cousin Mary Queen of Scots.

    It just goes to show that Richard III shouldn't necessarily be judged by twenty-first century values.

  25. #175
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Now the Roman Catholics are getting in on the act!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-21786634

  26. #176

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Of course it should be a Catholic ceremony with participation by Anglican clergy. Or perhaps vice versa.

  27. #177
    Keeland
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    No one gives a tinker's damn about reburying bones that ancient of anyone who wasn't royalty. But if the murdering son of a bitch was a king, the bones must be given a "proper" burial, and one of the "true" church, whatever that means.

    Humanity still bends its collective knee to some asshole king dead for centuries.

  28. #178
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeland View Post
    No one gives a tinker's damn about reburying bones that ancient of anyone who wasn't royalty. But if the murdering son of a bitch was a king, the bones must be given a "proper" burial, and one of the "true" church, whatever that means.

    Humanity still bends its collective knee to some asshole king dead for centuries.
    If you don't wish to attend the ceremony, I'm sure you'll be excused.

  29. #179

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    It is more a matter of historical interest than of religion. Nor is it a question of which religion is true, if any, but of which religion was his.

  30. #180
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Oh, put him back in the same parking lot if they're going to fight over the bones….

    I'd think it's impossible that he wouldn't have had a funeral, so all the commending-of-his-soul and imploring and beseeching should have been taken care of already. Does a simple reinterment require all the same falderal?

    Here: why not ask the next of kin? (presumably the guy they took the cheek swab from to show he was in the same genetic line)
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  31. #181

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    More likely the ultimate decision will be made by his legal heiress, Queen Elizabeth II. Of course, this is unecessary, but there will be a huge demand for tickets to the historic event, and it will probably be on TV.

  32. #182

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Now the Roman Catholics are getting in on the act!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-21786634
    Yes I was slightly shocked last week when Catholic referred to Thomas More as a hero of HIS church.

  33. #183
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...-under-1759973

    It appears car park knights are popping up like crocus.

    The grave of a medieval knight and the foundations of a monastery built by a former king of Scotland have been found under an old city car park.

  34. #184
    Keeland
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Overknight parking allowed?

  35. #185
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    An interesting development. Human remains which are possibly those of King Alfred the Great have been exhumed.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-21939274

  36. #186
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The latest on Richard III. Descendants of his sister are seeking Judicial Review of the decision to rebury in Leicester. They too prefer York.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21936327

  37. #187
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    For an in-depth examination of the "Princes in the Tower" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes_in_the_Tower) you will benefit from Josephine Tey's 1951 novel The Daughter of Time, available from Amazon (Oxford City Press 2011 reprint):

    The Daughter of Time is a 1951 detective novel by Josephine Tey, concerning a modern police officer's investigation into the alleged crimes of King Richard III of England. It was the last book Tey published in her lifetime, shortly before her death.
    ....

    On its publication Anthony Boucher called the book "one of the permanent classics in the detective field.... one of the best, not of the year, but of all time". Dorothy B. Hughes also praised it, saying it is "not only one of the most important mysteries of the year, but of all years of mystery".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daughter_of_Time

    Also examined is the Titulus Regius, by which Richard III assumed the Crown, and which Henry VII took great pains to extinguish. (Only one copy survives,) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titulus_Regius

  38. #188
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Note: Unfortunately the picture on the cover of The Daughter of Time appears to be that of Edward IV!

  39. #189
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Note: Unfortunately the picture on the cover of The Daughter of Time appears to be that of Edward IV!
    Depends on the edition. This one's Richard III:



    as is this (which is the edition I have):


  40. #190
    JockBoy87
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Arguably he did. That's what led to the conflict which ultimately cost his great-great-grandson Richard III his life. It's interesting how many people are able to trace their ancestry back to Edward III.
    Then there was Charlotte of Mecklenburg...

  41. #191
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Then there was Charlotte of Mecklenburg...
    Yes, Charlotte had a veritable web of children. And a very...sturdy...face, if the paintings are a good likeness.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  42. #192
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Then there was Charlotte of Mecklenburg...
    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Yes, Charlotte had a veritable web of children. And a very...sturdy...face, if the paintings are a good likeness.
    Indeed. Amongst the descendants of George III and Queen Charlotte are Elizabeth II and Prime Minister David Cameron. I was going to add Mayor of London Boris Johnson, but he's only a descendant of George II.

  43. #193
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Interesting to see that there are to be further excavations at the Greyfriars site in Leicester.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-22282722

  44. #194
    JockBoy87
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Indeed. Amongst the descendants of George III and Queen Charlotte are Elizabeth II and Prime Minister David Cameron. I was going to add Mayor of London Boris Johnson, but he's only a descendant of George II.
    I also understand that George III was quite a faithful husband.

  45. #195
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I also understand that George III was quite a faithful husband.
    I think 15 children is evidence of that!

  46. #196
    JockBoy87
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    I think 15 children is evidence of that!
    And 13 lived to adulthood? Good stock too!

  47. #197
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    My DirecTV package didnt allow me to see The King's Skeketon: Richard III Revealed, which in the US was broadcast on the Smithsonian Channel.

    Does anyone know when and where it will be on DVD.

  48. #198
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    No idea I'm afraid.

    This is a good picture of Richard III's reconstructed face being inspected by his 17th great-nephew, Michael Ibsen.


  49. #199
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    And now the reconstruction is to go on tour!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-22322756

  50. #200
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Finally, Messrs Sue, Grabbit and Runne are on the scene:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-22371814

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