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  1. #51
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Wrong. Neither James VI/I not Charles I was Roman Catholic. Both spent much of their careers attempting to enforce the COE Book of Common Prayer on the Scots and Puritans. During their reigns, the Great Migration of Puritans 40,000 came to to US New England, forming the basis for the Northern Population. More than half the Presidents have been descended from Great Migration Puritans, including Obama and the next, Romney.
    Point conceded (excepting Romney glorification). However, so long as Catholics were quiescent they were generally left alone.

  2. #52
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    I think we should start some sort of pool to see who will be right in the end.

    I'm willing to rush in where angels fear to tread, and predict the Crown will decide to leave him in Leicester, and for the reasons already mentioned, namely to boost tourism there as well as to avoid making too much of him at Westminster Abbey in light of his tarnished reign. The princes speak loudly yet.

    For the great unwashed, history will once again remind them of the founding of the Tudor line, and the wisdom of Henry VII who enabled Henry VIII to become so powerful.
    You post my thoughts ahead of me.


    The idea of a state funeral seems strange. He was already buried, one presumes with appropriate ceremony, so why do it over?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  3. #53
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    ....The idea of a state funeral seems strange. He was already buried, one presumes with appropriate ceremony, so why do it over?
    First, I'm not sure what a State Funeral of the time was. Personally I suspect it began with Henry VII, through instance of Lady Beaufort, Henry VII's mother and Henry VIII's grandmother and Regent.

    As for Richard III: "After the battle, the dead king's wrecked body had been slung over a horse, its long hair tied under its chin, then set on display at Leicester's Franciscan friary, naked except for a piece of cheap black cloth preserving its modesty, before a perfunctory funeral - 'like a dog in a ditch,' some said." (fn. 18)

    Penn, The Winter King, Simon & Schuster, 2011, p. 10, citing Davies, The War of the Roses in European Context, , pp. 4-6,
    in A.J. Pollard, London, 1995. (quoting contemporary Bishop John Morton).

    This seems to not be a State Funeral.

    Clearly Edward V and his brother deserve recognition.
    Last edited by palbert; October 12th, 2012 at 12:46 PM.

  4. #54

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    .. so long as Catholics were quiescent they were generally left alone.


    do you mean in USA or england?

  5. #55
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Pat: England.

  6. #56

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    ^ I just googled the words "catholic persecution england 16th century" and "the sacking of the monasteries"

    and it came up with

    "Eighty-five martyrs died for the Catholic faith in England and Wales more than three centuries ago"

  7. #57
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Henry VIII destroyed most of the monasteries forming the Church of England. He wanted the riches.

    85 - when? Catholic Mary burned far more Puritans.

  8. #58

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    …Catholics were quiescent …


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...rthern-ireland

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Pat - this thread is about King Richard III. If you want to discuss religious oppression, please open your own thread; do not try to hijack this one. And, it is certainly not about Ireland. Thank you.
    Last edited by palbert; October 13th, 2012 at 04:08 AM.

  10. #60
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    This thread isn't about Roman Catholicism per se. The Church of England didn't exist in 1485 and Richard was a Catholic like almost everyone else in England at the time. If the bones do turn out to be his, I imagine the good old C of E will take the lead as it's now the established (or state) church and a Cardinal will be invited along to keep the Catholics happy.

    I've just spotted a new piece on the BBC site reporting a parliamentary debate about the site of any reburial:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20083683

  11. #61
    johaninsc
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    thanks for the update, Ulom

  12. #62
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Thanks for the update.

    Any discussion of Edward V and his brother; any reburial?
    Last edited by palbert; October 25th, 2012 at 01:51 PM.

  13. #63
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    I'll play the orator as well as Nestor,
    Deceive more slyly than Ulysses could,
    And, like a Cylon, take another Troy.


    More proof Shakespeare was a time-travelling TV space-opera hack.

    I hope the British government decides to follow medieval tradition and for his misdeeds display his head on a pike at a York gate.

  14. #64
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by johaninsc View Post
    thanks for the update, Ulom
    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Thanks for the update.
    No problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Any discussion of Edward V and his brother; any reburial?
    I've not seen anything new about these two. It's not so far been possible to show that the bones discovered in the Tower some time ago are definitely theirs. I don't think there'd be any form of reburial without that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeland View Post
    I hope the British government decides to follow medieval tradition and for his misdeeds display his head on a pike at a York gate.
    The citizens of York wouldn't have stood for that in 1485 and somehow I doubt that they would today.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    interesting. i just read the shakespeare play "Richard III" for one of my courses

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Even FOX News is covering developments:

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10...s-richard-iii/

  17. #67
    Keeland
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    The citizens of York wouldn't have stood for that in 1485 and somehow I doubt that they would today.
    Darn. Brits have no sense of tradition.

  18. #68

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Thanks for the update.

    Any discussion of Edward V and his brother; any reburial?
    The bones thought to be those of Edward V and his brother Richard, Duke of York, are, of course, in Westminster Abby in an urn designed by Christopher Wren. What better place? But the availability of DNA from a descendant of their sibling, being compared with those of the putative Richard III remains, will probably result in the Dean of Westminster consenting to the long sought reexamination of the boys bones. If their bones yield usable DNA, it would answer that question at last. It would probably not answer the questions of how they died, or who was responsible.
    Richard's queen, Anne Neville was buried in Westminster, the exact position being unknown. It is not unlikely that he would have chosen the Abby as well for that reason, but there is again the problem of space.

  19. #69
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    It looks like it's been decided on a Leicester reburial:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20116118

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    This might interest some of you whilst we await the DNA results. The death has occurred of Lady Kinloss who, but for a quirk of history, would apparently have been the Tudor Queen of England:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...y-Kinloss.html

    That is, of course, unless you believe the throne rightfully belongs to the Earls of Loudoun:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...f-Loudoun.html

  21. #71

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Well, no. The Stuarts and Queen Elizabeth are descended from Henry VIII's eldest Sister Margaret through her two grand children, Mary Queen of Scots, and Lord Darnley. Lady Kinloss is descended from the younger sister, Mary Brandon. By primogeniture, Margaret and her descendants have the superior claim. The wii of Henry was not controling.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    It looks like it's been decided on a Leicester reburial:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20116118
    Congatulations.

  23. #73
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    This might interest some of you whilst we await the DNA results. The death has occurred of Lady Kinloss who, but for a quirk of history, would apparently have been the Tudor Queen of England:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...y-Kinloss.html

    That is, of course, unless you believe the throne rightfully belongs to the Earls of Loudoun:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...f-Loudoun.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Well, no. The Stuarts and Queen Elizabeth are descended from Henry VIII's eldest Sister Margaret through her two grand children, Mary Queen of Scots, and Lord Darnley. Lady Kinloss is descended from the younger sister, Mary Brandon. By primogeniture, Margaret and her descendants have the superior claim. The wii of Henry was not controling.
    The history of any monarchy is but a competition between pretexts and pretenders. If we had had King Mike in charge of the Commonwealth, they would have been filming a documentary about Lady Liz Battenberg in the middle of the outback and telling her she was meant to be queen.

    I'd call myself a monarchist, but let's not kid ourselves; the royal lineage makes about as much of a straight line as a partyboi at an all-weekend rave.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  24. #74
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Were it found to be HM's remains, will he be given a state funeral like if any modern royal were to die? Or will they just toss his bones in a hole?

    Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day.
    Give a man religion, and he'll starve praying for a fish.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by looseliam View Post
    Were it found to be HM's remains, will he be given a state funeral like if any modern royal were to die? Or will they just toss his bones in a hole?
    Neither I suspect.

  26. #76

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Why can't he given a state funeral? I saw a video in one of the links which suggested he and his tomb would be a tourist drawcard.

  27. #77
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    If in fact it is Richard III he will be reinterred in Leicester Cathedral, Church of England. It undecided what service he will receive and if any of the royal family will attend.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/rich...ster-cathedral
    http://www.cathedral.leicester.angli...k/beliefs.html

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    How exciting!

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    If you wish to learn the details:

    www.PeopleSmart.com:

    1) Richard iii's Info - Try Free! 2) Current Phone, Address & More.
    from the ad block on Yahoo Search for Richard III

  30. #80
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The DNA results are expected in December, but they're not quite ready yet apparently. Here's the latest from the BBC News site:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-20740276

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Of interest to those following this thread:

    A gold coin of Richard III's reign has been found near Bosworth Field:

    http://www.coinweek.com/world-coins/...bosworth-field

    In the summer of 1485, an unknown person lost a freshly minted angel near were the Battle of Bosworth in the county of Leicestershire. Was he one of Richard III’s or Henry Tudor’s soldiers making his way to do battle in the seemingly endless conflict of the ‘War of the Roses’, or was the coin lost whilst the previous owner was leaving to return home? We can never know if the coin witnessed the battle, but its loss so soon after being struck is a bonus for the modern collector as a piece of such quality is a rarity. Richard III’s wonderful ‘boar’s head’ mint mark is as clear as a summer day.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	richard3_coin.jpg 
Views:	7 
Size:	64.3 KB 
ID:	910386

    A gold ANGEL coin with a Value of 6 Shilling & 6d. Whomever such a coin was a person of wealth. Weight 5.16g
    This buttresses the claim that the battle took place at Bosworth Field rather than another location.

  32. #82
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    New documentary and physical evidence shows that the battle may have not taken place at Ambion Hill:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...re/8523386.stm

    Bosworth, fought in 1485, which saw the death of Richard III, was believed to have taken place on Ambion Hill, near Sutton Cheney in Leicestershire.

    But a study of original documents and archaeological survey of the area has now pinpointed a site in fields more than a mile to the south west.

    ....
    Of the most recent, and important finds made, was a gilded silver badge in the shape of a boar - Richard's personal emblem.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	_47332206_theboar.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	14.0 KB 
ID:	910387

    Experts believe this would have been given to one of the doomed king's closest companions and lost in the final stages of the battle.
    My previous post should have said "in the area of Bosworth Field." (Too late to edit.)
    Last edited by palbert; December 24th, 2012 at 07:46 AM.

  33. #83

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    ^
    that's a well-endowed boar

  34. #84
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    ^
    that's a well-endowed boar
    I think all things were pretty randy back then.

  35. #85

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    ^
    Yes I do like those codpieces.

  36. #86
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    When George W. Bush was President, I knew somebody who called him King George the Führer'th.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

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  37. #87

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    The coin is worth about 20,000 pounds per Spink's 2012 catalogue. I collect English coins, but I don't have one like that. LOL.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    ian mckellan, for me
    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    I bet most of us are unaware of that aspect to his reign just as I bet most of us are unduly influenced by the glamour of Laurence Olivier's portrayal of him

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Richard the Third is Cockney rhyming slang for faeces.
    Richard III has the dubious distinction of being immortalised in Cockney rhyming slang, Richard the Third meaning turd
    I'm pink therefore I'm Spam

  40. #90

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Why can't he given a state funeral? I saw a video in one of the links which suggested he and his tomb would be a tourist drawcard.
    Since they know how many people watch royal weddings and funerals on TV, I would guess that they will make it a ****** Not an official state funeral, but a big ceremony. The church will of course, be filled to capacity. I would guess that Prince Charles will attend. I think he has a degree in archeology and history. Who is the present Duke of Gloucester? I would also guess that it will be a Catholic ceremony but with participation by Anglican ministers as well.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    .... Who is the present Duke of Gloucester? ....
    The fifth and final creation was for Prince Henry, son of George V. Upon Prince Henry's death, the dukedom was inherited by his son Prince Richard, who still holds the title. The heir to the title is presently Alexander Windsor, styled Earl of Ulster. The next in the line of succession is the Earl of Ulster's infant son Xan Windsor, known by his grandfather's third title of Lord Culloden. The currently Royal dukedom will devolve into an ordinary one when it will be inherited by the Earl of Ulster; as a great-grandson of a sovereign he lacks any royal style.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Gloucester

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    It will be remembered that Richard III was Duke of Gloucester before taking the Crown:

    The title was next conferred on Richard Plantagenet, brother to King Edward IV. When Richard himself became King, the dukedom merged into the crown. After Richard's death, the title was considered ominous, since the first three such Dukes had all died without issue to inherit their titles. The title was not awarded for over 150 years, the next to receive the dukedom being the son of King Charles I, Henry Stuart, upon whose death the title became officially extinct.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    What was believed to be the remains of Richard III will be identified as such.

    Human remains found in the resting place of Richard III have already been identified as those of the king but information is being held back ahead of a major press conference next month, sources close to the project claim.
    ....
    Additional evidence not revealed at a major press conference after the remains were found demonstrates beyond all reasonable doubt that the body is the King's, even without genetic proof, the source said.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9...chard-III.html

  44. #94

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    I am planning a trip to England this summer. I wonder if they will require tickets for the ceremony.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    @ Benvolio

    Contact

    http://www.cathedral.leicester.anglican.org/

    I have before and they were most accomadating.

    I would expect just about every Ricardian to have the same query.

  46. #96

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III



    I still don't understand why the national sovereign would be buried way, way out in the provinces.

  47. #97
    Keeland
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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Because the Sax-Coburg-Gothas don't want a Plantagenet revival.

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    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeland View Post
    Because the Sax-Coburg-Gothas don't want a Plantagenet revival.
    During WWI the English Royaal Family namewas changed from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor, thought quintessentially English. The change was subject to some ridicule.

    During the period of anti-German feelings in England during World War I, many German names and titles were changed and given more English-sounding names, including the royal family's from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor. Kaiser Wilhelm II countered this by jokingly saying that he was off to see a performance of 'The Merry Wives of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.' (Referring to Shakespeare's play The Merry Wives of Windsor.)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merry_Wives_of_Windsor

  49. #99

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post


    I still don't understand why the national sovereign would be buried way, way out in the provinces.
    Not all kings were buried near London. Richard has been in Leicester since 1484, so it is more consistent with history to leave him there. There is no room in Westminster Abbey or St George's, Windsor without disruption.

  50. #100

    Re: His Late Majesty King Richard III

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Not all kings were buried near London. ....
    Really? I don't know which kings you could mean.

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