Suicide attempt,that almost succeeded.But I only wanted pain to stop

[ludolfo]

I have heard this quite a few times. parents and friends of those that have killed themselves claiming they were very happy, or nothing seemed to be worrying them beforehand!
Now I don't know if this is---and I an in way am trying to offend you here Chrizze. I know this must be very personal for you and if you don't want to discuss about it like this I will understand. It is just I am a very inquisitive person, and have had serious Blues myself. Now I don't know if this is because people close to people (and people in general) have become dulled to really observing people in deep ways, body language, behind the mask, OR it is because the person is genuinely happy because they look forward to ending their life.

[Chrizze]

I have read,and,in fact,heard from some people,that this can occure.But something in me is saying,that this was not the case.(being happy about forecoming end of life).About this "being dulled",I have personally been devastated in past couple of years,in different incidents,how badly I am able to judge the character of the person.Either something had happened to me,or the world,or both,..or then,maybe I only had an illusion of being a good judge of a character of the person.

[ludolfo]

well i think that goes for us all Chrizze. many people now when you look around seem more interested in their little hand-held computers than they do the person stood next to them. I have seen this time and time again. I think a big part of the desire for suicide is a deep sense of isolation--dont know if this was part of your feeling? Of just not feeling part of anything or in tune with anyone. EVEN when in a social situation which can be even worse. When everyone around 'seems' to be all having fun

[Chrizze]

You mean,was this part of my suicidal feelings back then?

[ludolfo]

You mean,was this part of my suicidal feelings back then?

Yes if you don't mind sharing this

[Chrizze]

Yes,now that I have little distance from that,I believe it was part of it,..more like feeling of redundancy,to be exact.

[ludolfo]

of not being of any use to anyone or even to life?

[Chrizze]

Yes,that was my feeling.Somewhat subjective,of course,.. But in our modern,western,ultracapitalist,profit-only-driven world,I don't feel that feeling was completely..inaccurate either.If I take one example,almost none of my friends lives in my hometown anymore,because in many trades,there is simply no jobs anymore.This used to be heavy industry town,heavy industry now gone,by the way,mostly from whole country.It really scares the shit out of me,to think about having to face old age,in this sort of setting.as one of my friends cynically said about this.. "I don't think that full-scale nuclear world war would be so bad idea after all".

[ludolfo]

Yes exactly. I have heard that the rate of people killing themselves has shot up throughout the world due to the so-called 'cuts' and the misery it all brings.
It reminds me of reading about this on Native American reservations some years ago, because I have always been interested in this, because you know I strongly challenge the mental illness myth. That to me it is natural that when peoples lives are made to feel SO meaningless, dull, and dead, that people will feel hopeless and de--pressed

I am very keen, Chrizze, when I explore about deep issues to look for etymology of words. This is because I am aware that myths use language, and often people can become unconscious of the terminology they use--its real original meaning, roots etc--and these words can then be manipulated by others to mean what they choose them to mean.
So take 'depression':

depression (n.)
late 14c. as a term in astronomy, from Old French depression (14c.) or directly from Latin depressionem (nom. depressio), noun of action from pp. stem of deprimere "to press down, depress" (see depress).

Attested from 1650s in the literal sense; meaning "dejection, depression of spirits" is from early 15c. (as a clinical term in psychology, from 1905); meteorological sense is from 1881 (in reference to barometric pressure); meaning "a lowering or reduction in economic activity" was in use by 1826; given a specific application (with capital D-) by 1934 to the one that began worldwide in 1929. For "melancholy, depression" an Old English word was grevoushede.

Hmm I must remember that, 'I am very grevoushede' lol But those definitions 'to press down' is what I feel it can feel like. It is like you have no power whatsoever isn't it?

[Chrizze]

Quite right,that's what it feels,and seems,too.Someone else,somewhere,making decisions,that affect to real people,but to them,it's just statistic.

[ludolfo]

powerlessness. I was reading about this very young boy who killed himself a while ago. he was bullied in school being called gay all the time, and treated very mean,and there didn't seem any help for him. and one day he comes home and hangs himself. So many children will feel this sense of powerlessness. I did when I was at school--all the way through from infants to highschool. It was this dread I had of that place. Children are forced to go, and if you dont like it your fucked. you THINK you have no choice. You actually do, you can say 'no i am NOT going!' but the consequences of rebelling are frightening so you stick with the hell your in. thats how I see it now. school was made to seem like EVERYTHING. admittedly somethings you have no choice over

[JohannBessler]

^In the States, some (lucky) victims of gay bullying get Homeschooled. Most states have made it legal since about the 1980s.

[ludolfo]

were either of you two bullied at school?

[Chrizze]

No,I was not,and I am not aware,that she was either.I was on special class,which had max.10 pupils.Reason was,that I had "learning problems",.. Of course I had,I got Immensely bored..I would have been able to do things twice faster,than rest of them.. But our primary school system was directly copied from East Germany,.. Not exactly encouraging you for damn thing.So,perhaps I was bullied,.. By the whole system itself,which was insult to my intelligence.

[JohannBessler]

^My understanding is that East Germany had some of the highest standards of education in the world.

So if Finland copied the East German model, that could be one reason why Finland nears the top of the world in academic excellence.

No joke. I think Finland's #1 in that category.

[ludolfo]

No,I was not,and I am not aware,that she was either.I was on special class,which had max.10 pupils.Reason was,that I had "learning problems",.. Of course I had,I got Immensely bored..I would have been able to do things twice faster,than rest of them.. But our primary school system was directly copied from East Germany,.. Not exactly encouraging you for damn thing.So,perhaps I was bullied,.. By the whole system itself,which was insult to my intelligence.

Yes, the system itself is the biggest bully. Not only does it bully children and their parents to make sure the children HAVE to attend these schools, but as you know, from your own experience, they stigmatize children with labels like "slow learner" "learning problems" "special pupils" and also with bogus disorders like "ADD" "ADHD" where they will even coerce kids to take drugs now!

Have you heard of John Taylor Gatto? he was a teacher who now exposes the whole system and shows how the 'education' system was brought about etc. Apparently in 19th century with its first enforcement with bayonets to drive people to send their kids to schools started in Prussia which is Germany, and this system was copied by rest of the world.

I see these schools as same as open prisons. yes, the kid can walk away from them but doing so can bring serious consequences for themselves and family. The bullying case I read, where the child killed themself, there was also a series of similar suicides of children at the same school, but the school denied that there was bullying because they had an 'anti-bullying policy'! This assures it will continue. They also are usually reluctant to admit that the bullying is to do with homophobia.

[Chrizze]

I am still alive,in case somebody wondered.

[JohannBessler]

^I was thinking of you just yesterday, Chrizze.


How are the SSRIs working? Has it closed that black hole inside you--at least a little bit? I think enough time has passed in order to tell.

They tell me that the effects of SSRIs are not subtle, so you will definitely know if it's working.

[ludolfo]

Hey Chrizze, good to hear from you. How are you feeling today?

[Chrizze]

Rather good,for a chance,...and I began to feel,that I might survive from my mother's death,after all.

[JohannBessler]

Very nice to hear, Chrizze.

Every wound takes time to heal.

[bankside]

Rather good,for a chance,...and I began to feel,that I might survive from my mother's death,after all.

In losing dear members of my own family I have learned to doubt whether people move on from grief. At least I carry it with me. But I have learned to carry it without collapsing, not because it is a light burden, but because part of what I want to do, now that I'm here and they are not, is to make use of the time I have to enjoy the world out of respect for the joy they found in the world. If they found joy, so too must I look for it. In the case of one uncle, any joy in his life was very fleeting and hard-won. I do think I owe it to him to seek out the good things in life that sometimes escaped his grasp.

[JohannBessler]

^I don't think anyone really gets over it. Instead, he learns to live with it. I heard this pearl of wisdom in my 20s from a 60s+ woman, and now I pass it on.

@Chrizze: I think your Mother would want you to go forward with your life, so that you could have opportunities that she was never able to have.

Now that you have a lot of time on your hands, and have reached some level of stability, you have a lot of possibilities abailable to you.

[ludolfo]

Hi Chrizze, I am glad to hear that

[Chrizze]

^I don't think anyone really gets over it. Instead, he learns to live with it. I heard this pearl of wisdom in my 20s from a 60s+ woman, and now I pass it on.

@Chrizze: I think your Mother would want you to go forward with your life, so that you could have opportunities that she was never able to have.


Now that you have a lot of time on your hands, and have reached some level of stability, you have a lot of possibilities abailable to you.

I tend to agree,and Have to be patient,..things don't usually pass overnight,but they usually DO pass.

[JohannBessler]

^You have already come a long, long way.

[Chrizze]

And all wounds,it is not necessary/possible from them to heal,..you could live with that,and say:- See,this came from RPG near HUE -68.

[ludolfo]

Hi Chrizze, I have pasted what I answered you with from pm to here as you suggested:

WOW Chrizze, this is real synchronicity!!! Today I joined a Facebook group, and my latestt post was EXACTLY about this subject, and I will cope the question and my reply word for word: this was the guy's post to me:
Scientology, love them or hate them, have taken on the psychiatric establishment and government mind control such as MK-Ultra--kind of defeating arguments they are in league with some of these institutions. I worked with a member doing a lot of research on the MK programs, and they have huge files of documents. They got into a battle with Louis J. West MD who has a long record as a govt. spook, he is an expert on cults, hallucinogens and wanted to do psychosurgery on violent minorities. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend..." http://www.cchr.org/
Citizens Commission on Human Rights, CCHR - Nonprofit Mental Health Watchdog
www.cchr.org
and this was my reply:
I have had problems with them--ie their involvement. And I believe Thomas Szasz said that quote. Every time I brought up this subject I was accused of being part of the scientology cult lol. So I then went on this search for someone who agreed with me that they also are a bunch of control freaks, and I found Robert Whittaker author of Mad in America. The thing with ANY cult is they want to draw you into THEIR control freakery. Though I can understand Szasz comparing the two and Scientology coming of lightly lol
See, thing is Chrizzy, I really struggled with the fact that some of the important people in revealing the mental illness myth would accept help from Scientology. And when I was researching to do a blog all about this, I was determined to find someone who knew about the mental illness myth but also disagreed with the Scientology control freaks. Bob Whittaker is one of the nicest guys I know. Very approachable, and encouraging. But also like I say, as much as I feel like you about Scientology, when you find out the VERY oppressive history of psychiatry, in a way it is understandable that Thomas Szasz and others would accept their help. But I personally am against Scientology like you. So please don't think all people who are against myth of mental illness are Scientology or willing to support their cult. Another guy who isn't is Seth Farber who has written a book (in which he acknowledges me! Very first experience) titled Spiritual Gift of Madness: The Failure of Psychiatry and the Rise of the Mad Pride Movement I have many many other contacts who never mention Scientology so please Chrizze let me know if you want me to share this info with you?

[Chrizze]

Yes,it is good to continue here...by the way,I couldn't but notice,that my thread has viewed more than 6000 times,..possibly someone else has had found something useful too?

[JohannBessler]

^very probably, Chrizze. JUB has many lurkers who never post.

[ludolfo]

I am always aware of the many people who read these posts which is good if what is being said is exploring things that are not usually talked about. I think this is very healing. I know it is for me

[Chrizze]

well,it´s been a long time,since I have made any comments,..well,some of those drugs that I use for my "mental problems",whether they exist,or not....I have became addicted at least some of them...but they help me...I got an enquiry letter from our national health insurance,about,why I have bought so much of them...but that is not a problem,..I have not done anything illegal to obtain those medications..pharmacies got a little sloppy,when selling them...of course,this problem is bit older,I used to be addicted to opiates,..these will keep me from using them,..but addiction just switched to other drug.

[ludolfo]

yes exactly. this insane culture supposedly wages a 'war on drugs' whilst pushing drugs, including to younger and younger children.

[Chrizze]

yes exactly. this insane culture supposedly wages a 'war on drugs' whilst pushing drugs, including to younger and younger children.

They don´t like competition. I suppose.

[ludolfo]

They don´t like competition. I suppose.

That is sadly exactly it. That is the gross truth. They do not want their profits affected by ANY competition.

[Chrizze]

their profits are criminally insane..those chemicals don´t cost very much,..I suppose,that profit margin is something like 10000%

By the way,where are you,johannbessler?

[JohannBessler]

^Reading every single word you type, Chrizze. I'm never very far away.

I just don't have much of an opinion on the topic that you and Ludolfo are discussing.

I do agree with you two that the pharmaceuticals are vastly overpriced.

[Chrizze]

And at least all Pfizer´s products are designed to get you hooked.No wonder that it is biggest of big pharma.

[ludolfo]

Yes the insanity of it all---they laughably wage a so-called "war on drugs" and yet spend MILLIONS in order to get millions of people, including children, hooked on their DRUGS!
Meanwhile working hand in hand the shrinks Bible, the DSM gets fatter and fatter every edition with more and more human behaviours classed as disorders that big pharma can push drugs at!

[Chrizze]

This world is going nuts beyond belief.

[ludolfo]

Yes, I have felt this for a long time. I also think that it is also becoming more apparent. IE if you know how to use this radical ifnormational device, the internet, you can find just HOW insane it all is going back into the past, and seeing it continuuing escalatingly so into the future.

Not sure if you watched the London Olympics? Well the guy who created the ideas for the opening show---which I found amazing, and even though I wasn't even gonna watch the event drew me in--Danny Boyle, I posted on his FB yesterday. I had this idea. Some kind of drama/show where people who are hoplessly addicted to the flashy gadget screen whilst behind them the evil powers that be do all this crazy control freakery. IF the people would just tear their attention away from the toys and LOOK what is going on! LOL I don't know if he will even accept me as a friend on his FB or reply, but sometimes i have these spontaneous ideas and just go with them. I just feel that a major strategy of the control-freaks is making sure people are dumbed down. You can see this on many levels---their 'education' system where kids HAVE to go to since being little; the mass media--check this out

Then we have their war on psychedelics/consciousness/nature, and their central social controlling myth, the myth of mental illness where they push their suppressant drugs at people. So when you begin investigating all this in a generalist way and looking at the bigger picture of it all you begin to see deeper into what is going on. I am learning all the time about this anyway, and I think it's very important to speak out about it

[Chrizze]

Who´s adding knowledge,adds pain.but that´s better,than sheer ignorance.thought I have sometimes suppress my knowledge with drugs.

[ludolfo]

Who´s adding knowledge,adds pain.but that´s better,than sheer ignorance.thought I have sometimes suppress my knowledge with drugs.

you mean 'ignorance is bliss'? You mean that knowing just how insane this world is can be very painful and overwhelming?
I think what you say is really deep, and is what a lot of people feel, and this is reason many people look for escape routes which act as comfort food.
I think that it can be very painful IF you don't have a feeling for the roots of where this insanity is coming from. This is why I have personally been very interested in looking at mythologies. because when you get down to it, we are not just rational beings but also have deeper aspects including a mythical aspect. This is so because when people classed by this culture as 'schizophrenic' and 'psychotic' and 'bipolar' enter visionary realms they encounter often mythical dimensions of being. This is explained in depth in this book Trials of the Visionary Mind, by John Weir Perry.
This is why when I hear 'rationalists' and 'atheists' and 'non-believers' claim that reality is just this, just that as they believe, and do not understand their mythical reasons for saying that, then they are ignore-ant of their own beings. They have very shallow outlook on what they are. And it is not surprising that these mindsets often will claim that the world is NOT insane and that science is marvelous and will sort everything out lol

But IF wre can understand our deeper being and that in alternative perceptions to the usual 'wide awake, alert, worker consumer' aspect we are forced into by this culture, there are deeper levels, and IF you do not know this they are there ANYWAY. This is dangerous because if you are not aware others are. The powers that be are VERY aware and use symbols and what not to manipulate people. So this is very important to begin understanding and not bury head in sand.

There IS realness, and authentic love, but pretending that there is no real danger from predatory mindsets is not fruitful. We rather have to SEE what they are up to and thus undermine their crap.

[Brian Smith]

Speaking as someone who has one of those "visionary minds," I actually find "rationalism" to be very calming. Because of it, I don't find an attack of anxiety to be anymore disturbing than a fit of indigestion. Rationalism acts as a mental buffer against psychological disturbances causing me any lasting damage. It is my engine coolant. If you are perpetually overclocked, it is a very effective tool.

On recurring thoughts, I can understand how that might drive a man to kill himself. It must be like being a prisoner in his own mind, and there is no way out.

What I did was to develop a ritual for addressing these kinds of attacks. I thought of it as my "battle plan." First, I would drink a few glasses of water, and I would sound a growl deep in my throat to try to get my blood jumping. I would then turn on some techno. I would spend a while doing some calisthenics. I was a smoker at the time, so one routine I worked out for myself was that I would do a set, knock on the floor for how many sets I've completed, take a drag, do another set, knock, take a drag, and repeat this several times. My partner doesn't let me smoke anymore, though, so that wouldn't work now. After that, I would take a shower, and I would put on a decent outfit for going out in. I would walk about three miles, no matter what the weather conditions were, no matter how late it was at night, to the same gas station, and I would order one large coffee, black with no sugar. I would stay there until I had finished calming down, and then I would take the scenic route back, which added another mile to the walk. When I got home, I would make up a strong chamomile tea, using two bags steeped in scalding water for several minutes, drunk hot. Occasionally, I would drink a second one, and that would end up inducing profuse sweating. I felt I was cleaning myself out somehow by that.

But the point is that I had a battle plan for trying to calm my mind. I didn't leave myself feeling helpless. I realized that letting myself feel helpless was the worst thing that I could do. I had to fight somehow, even if what I was doing to fight it out was only symbolic. I needed a way to feel empowered over myself. I needed to draw a line in the sand, where I was saying, "This is my mind, and I am going to have control over it."

In fact, that was a really big thing for me...that proud declarative, "THIS IS MINE!" It put me in control. If I didn't feel that I was the master of my own mind, I took umbrage over that. It's my territory. I have a right to have dominion over it. There is only one force that can justly have control over my mind, and that is my own god damn force of will. In a way, I feel obligated to stand up for that just as a matter of principle.

[bankside]

I believe that everyone's mental well-being is disturbed at various points in his life; it is an inevitable human condition. I think there is still a deeply held prejudice in society that physical injuries or illnesses may be common to all mankind, but mental health issues can be avoided by maintaining an appropriate discipline of character.

I reject that prejudice and note that physical or mental maladies are common to us all.

That being said, I have never struggled with any chronic mental health issues, and thus I have never taken any medication prescribed by a psychiatrist. The only mind-affecting chemical I ingest (other than food, which is both mind-altering and chemical like anything else) is periodic consumption of alcohol. It's effects on me are well defined and limited due to the infrequency of my drinking.

It seems obvious to me that chemicals can affect the brain positively or negatively, whether they are a result of "big pharma" or "traditional knowledge." And I think it lacks insight to assume all "natural" drugs are good and all "pharmacological" drugs are bad. It seems naive at best and more likely detrimental. Of course some pharmalogical medications will be more useful than others and some drugs used as informal medication can be helpful. But the black and white conspiracy-of-profit idea is unjustified. The US state of Washington is about to start profiting massively from taxes on marijuana. That will not reduce its effectiveness in treating glaucoma or stabilising the appetite in people who are taking cancer treatment. The brain doesn't care about profit or marketing or anything like that.

If people find their mental processes benefit from some regular medicinal chemical, they should be mindful of side effects and willing to manage them with their doctors. It is good to have a doctor who respects the reasons why some people choose untested street drugs to manage their symptoms. One example of a doctor like that is Dr. Gabor Maté, from Vancouver. His book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" is excellent, giving insight about the effects of drug use on the minds of people with chronic mental health issues without moralising about their choices. I think it should be recommended reading for anyone who tries self-medication to help them understand the costs and benefits of any substance from street drugs to conventional medication.

[bankside]

Chrizze, for me I preferred memory to forgetfulness. When I found the memories challenging I often turned to reading. Do you do something like that? Not to forget but to take a short break from remembering?

[Chrizze]

Reading is my most important "hobby",if you can call it that.it helps to forget for a moment,,but when more powerful "leave of absence from this life" is required,then strong medications are required..usually opiates.Not street drugs,but from the street,..I accept only untampered,unopened pack of pharmaceuticals...there is available stronger things,than ordinary street drugs...

[ludolfo]

I love Shulgan's classification of drugs and psychedelics. The drugs, which include the illegal drugs, including acceptable drugls like alcohol, sugar, caffeine, and the psychiatric drugs, can be classed as either uppers or downers, and then there are the psychedelics or ecodelics:

Scientifically speaking, ecodelics are molecules capable of chemically modifying brain function. For a better understanding of their effects, it’s important to get acquainted with the entire class of psychoactive drugs. In order to do so, we will borrow a model designed by Doctor Alexander Shulgin that splits psychoactive drugs in three main categories: uppers, downers and psychedelics3.

Uppers are stimulants, meaning that they elicit an amplification of various psychobiological functions, including attention, motor activity and wakefulness (which intensify productivity), but also the level of anxiety. The better known ones are caffeine, cocaine, amphetamine, ritalin and nicotine.

Downers are sedatives, and have opposite effects to those of uppers: they slow down and lower in intensity our psychobiological functions. They can be referred to as anxiolytics (used to reduce overall arousal but maintain wakefulness), anesthetics (for getting into an inert, unresponsive state) or hypnotics (sleep inducers). Some examples include alcohol, opiate narcotics, anesthetics and benzodiazepines such as Xanax and Valium.


Now, if the substances from the previous categories affect the enhancement or reduction of mental process, psychedelics seem to modify the quality of consciousness itself, affecting those aspects that we identify most closely with our sense of being human, which puts them in a unique position in the family of mind-altering chemicals.

The difficulty in describing the psychedelic effects consistently makes these substances a great and fascinating mystery. The term is derived from greek and latin, and was forged in the 50s by British psychiatrist Humphry Osmond in a poem-letter to writer Aldous Huxley. It means that which “manifests the mind”.

Another popular word used to describe theses substances is hallucinogen, which refers to that which “generates hallucinations". Throughout history many other names were invented, and each one suggests a particular meaning that reflects the values of the period and of the ones who named it. Names as unusual as phantasticants (eliciting fantasy), psychotomimetic (mimicking psychosis), oneirogens (generating dreams), psychodysleptics (distorting or disrupting the mind) and mysticomimetics (mimicking the mystical state) have all been used in the scientific realm. Entheogen is a definition more popular among mystics, and refers to that which “generates the divine within”.

In any case, all definitions have their downside. Hallucinogen is the preferred medical-legal term, but also a very biased one, once it suggests that the effects of these substances are illegitimate or nonrepresentative of anything that can be subject to scrutiny, once they are understood as mental creations that have no relationship with the external reality. The term psychedelic is so popular that it is used as an adjective today (as in “psychedelic music” or “psychedelic art”), still its original definition evokes memories of and reactions to a particular political and sociocultural phenomenon that started back in the turbulent 1960s and was followed by decades of a repressive policy founded on prejudice and lack of information (see more in “a brief story of ecodelics”, linked below). Entheogen implies a religiosity not recognized by all, as usually occurs in the global scientific community.

Therefore, we are enthusiasts of the term ecodelic4. Not only for being a recent word still free from prejudice, but because it embeds a deeper knowledge about these substances. If we can understand that they manifest something that transcends the chemical and physical processes related to brain functioning, we may find many other implications for their use in this turning point we are living now. [source]

Of course, psychedelics can be abused just like any drugs, but when taken in a deeply respectful way they can help to resolve destructive habits and personal crises. This is a big reason that this fucked-up culture wages a war on them!

[Chrizze]

Everything you wrote in your post,is completely known to me We really are in the same business,so to speak,...I could have been written that,if I would have enough patience,and little bit better grammar.I agree with everything you say.Howewer,people don´t tend to get addicted to psychedelics,same way,than downers,..habituated,perhaps,what I have been reading,and hearing from my friends.

[ludolfo]

Everything you wrote in your post,is completely known to me We really are in the same business,so to speak,...I could have been written that,if I would have enough patience,and little bit better grammar.I agree with everything you say.Howewer,people don´t tend to get addicted to psychedelics,same way,than downers,..habituated,perhaps,what I have been reading,and hearing from my friends.

Yes, that's why I said that psychedelics also can be abused if not treated with respect. It is a two way thing---both respecting the psychedelics you ingest and your body mind and soul.
For some, tripping could be some kind of thrill-seeking experience, or a way to feel superior than others because you can see their moves, and minds---lol. So it can be used like that. BUT what I try and encourage is the realization that they can help us get in contact with our fears. Listen to this guy, I really love what he is doing---which is saying how magic mushrooms can be used for self-healing:

Entering the Darkness - Conscious Living Radio Interview with James W. Jesso - March 2013