Suicide attempt,that almost succeeded.But I only wanted pain to stop

[Kulindahr]

So,this is what will happen?

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks…will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered…. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. – Thomas Jefferson in the debate over the Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809).

Waking up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered?

Jefferson never said such a thing. The proof lies in the fact that "deflation" was never applied to anything financial until well after the year 1900; more, that there's never been any document called or containing anything called "Debate over the Re-Charter of the Bank Bill". It's listed under "spurious quotations" by Monticello.org and designated "False" on snopes.com.

[Kulindahr]

There's one important thing I forgot to tell you all.

Chrizze, if you have it in your mind that you suffer from bipolar illness (as opposed to simple depression), I met a woman who swears that a ketogenic diet cured her. No joke.

She'd originally started her ketogenic diet in order to lose weight, but a few weeks in, her husband noticed a big change in her moods. She was skeptical at first, then she grudgingly had to admit that he was right--those horrible highs and lows she'd had completely disappeared. Now, she lives on that ketogenic diet all the time.

If you want to talk to her, drop me a line. She posts frequently on another forum, so it might take me a couple of days to re-establish contact with her, but once you meet her, you will instantly perceive her as "credible".

On a related note, I do know that ketogenic diets were used in the 1920s to treat epilepsy, and rather recently, scientific investigation proved them "effective". If ketogenic diets can treat epilepsy, just why wouldn't they be effective for bipolar illness? Both illnesses originate in the brain.

So here you have an instance of science meeting naturopathy and concurring.

Now I'm fascinated!

[Kulindahr]

^ lol Chrizze. Maybe you're right.

Our debate originated with you, really. We were looking at different approaches of addressing your problem with depression. In the course of our debate, a most remarkable concurrence has taken place--we're meeting in the middle, a rare occurrance these days, it seems.

At any rate, I have some exciting news for you, Chrizze. Remember the University of Freiburg experiments? Out of the original experiments, they fine-tuned the protocol to process over just one week. Yes, over just one week, you could feel significant relief from your depression by advancing your sleep phase, and I have concrete evidence!

The abstract is a pdf file, so I'll have to link to it indirectly. This link will take you to a Google Results page. You will want to choose the fourth (4th) choice from the top.

Supposedly, it works for 61% of the patients. I feel excited for you; I hope you try it.

Please let us know if you don't understand the scientific language--we'll translate it for you into easier-to-understand English.

http://snipurl.com/2560uyy

Hey -- that just gave me a google search result list. Is that what it's supposed to do?


At any rate, I followed a couple of links and did some reading. It seems that the sleep advancement is supposed to be started when in a depressive episode. My question would be how anyone would expect me to remember to do something like that when depressed?

[Chrizze]

Jefferson never said such a thing. The proof lies in the fact that "deflation" was never applied to anything financial until well after the year 1900; more, that there's never been any document called or containing anything called "Debate over the Re-Charter of the Bank Bill". It's listed under "spurious quotations" by Monticello.org and designated "False" on snopes.com.

I had my doubts about it too.but last sentence,written by me,seems to be valid,compared tobwhat is happening today?

[Chrizze]

Kulindahr: - what Thomas Jefferson,and James Madison had really said,are they avalable somewhere in internet? Perhaps eve downloadable?

I was in psychiatric today,he did not made any changes to my medication....long discussion short: there is no magic bullet,or pills...you just have to live this life.this what my friends say,what you,people here,say,and what my friends in workplace says.
That it is UP TO YOU.you choose to live,or die,it's so simple,when we clear all the crap away.And no-one else can do these things for you.

[JohannBessler]

Hey -- that just gave me a google search result list. Is that what it's supposed to do?


At any rate, I followed a couple of links and did some reading. It seems that the sleep advancement is supposed to be started when in a depressive episode. My question would be how anyone would expect me to remember to do something like that when depressed?

Kulindahr, look at the fourth link from the top. It's a .pdf file, which is why I couldn't link to it directly.

Keep in mind that the sleep phase advancement therapy is aimed at those with simple depressive illness. I don't think it'll help you, Kulindahr.

For those who suffer from bipolar illness, I believe the ketogenic diet might be a better approach. Did you read Ambimorph's testamonial? It instantly reads "credible".

[Chrizze]

So,BlondeCanadian,at first page,already said,what everybody has said,basically.

We are not going to be able to change your mind. You are going to decide to live or you are going to decide to die.

End of the day,it's that simple.


My doctor said also,that,"you should address that drug abuse problem first"

[ludolfo]

So,BlondeCanadian,at first page,already said,what everybody has said,basically.



End of the day,it's that simple.


My doctor said also,that,"you should address that drug abuse problem first"

Have you got a drug problem? Sorry if you have said. I thought you'd said it was in the past.

[JohannBessler]

^They have a new, experimental treatment for drug addiction that might be worth considering.

They have reaped pretty good results from a drug called Topimirate, which scientists originally created to treat certain types of epilepsy, but noticed that it had a therapeutic effect on problems with addiction.

At this time, they classify Topimirate use for addiction as "off-label", but it doesn't cost very much. You might find it worth a look.

[Chrizze]

To Ludolfo: No,it is only occasional now,..yuo never really quit,..and I don'n even want to.

To Johann. Thanks for a suggestion to replace one poison with another.you don't seem to know too much about opiate addiction.I have studied about it extensively,about the whole time I have been using..And we don't..our doctor don't do off-labeling so much as your doctors do.
(I checked topiramate from our 'FDA's database).

[Chrizze]

Johann,why you comment my post kindof "off - label",you only comment,when you have some scientific study to provide.I want my whole post addressed,to best of your ability.

[JohannBessler]

^I don't think I understand the question, Chrizze.

But if you're asking why I used the term "off-label", I must let you know that doctors won't usually prescribe a medication for off-label use unless you specifically ask if you can try it. This is why you may not have even known about topiramate before I brought it up.

I know a little bit more than most people about off-label use of pharmaceuticals because I read a lot of medical literature. For example, my OH was just prescribed clonidine for the purpose of nicotine withdrawal, yet few Americans even know about it because its use as a medication for nicotine withdrawal is "off-label".

Do you know about ibogaine? It has an off-label use for opiate withdrawal.

I don't mean to offend you with any of this, Chrizze, I am only trying to help you..

[ludolfo]

I very much respect the African sacred plant Iboga. I have never had it myself, but I feel that people who want to try it should have the freedom to. I saw this video night before last:

[Chrizze]

^I don't think I understand the question, Chrizze.

But if you're asking why I used the term "off-label", I must let you know that doctors won't usually prescribe a medication for off-label use unless you specifically ask if you can try it. This is why you may not have even known about topiramate before I brought it up.

I know a little bit more than most people about off-label use of pharmaceuticals because I read a lot of medical literature. For example, my OH was just prescribed clonidine for the purpose of nicotine withdrawal, yet few Americans even know about it because its use as a medication for nicotine withdrawal is "off-label".

Do you know about ibogaine? It has an off-label use for opiate withdrawal.

I don't mean to offend you with any of this, Chrizze, I am only trying to help you..

Sorry that outburst,bad morning,perhaps. I know perfectly,what prescribing off-label means.I have two shelfmetres medical literature.What perhaps differs between our countries,that GP's as they would say in british,your general medical doctor,that you probably go,unless your condition is already known..they cannot off-label.So,to get what you suggest,I should see addiction field-specialized psysciatric doctor.There is only one in this town.I had met him couple of occasions,..nice fellow,no problem with that.
I know Ibogaine therapy.I mentioned that already.by the way,are you trying to say,there is on-label use? It's schedule I? Anyways,no seller(assuming there is one) in EU would not ship it to finland,and I don't have a "sitter",for that stuff.

[Chrizze]

So,BlondeCanadian,at first page,already said,what everybody has said,basically.

We are not going to be able to change your mind. You are going to decide to live or you are going to decide to die.
End of the day,it's that simple.


My doctor said also,that,"you should address that drug abuse problem first"

What I meant,johann,was,that you did not had any comment in your post,that adddresses.anything,but last sentence.

[ludolfo]

Sorry that outburst,bad morning,perhaps. I know perfectly,what prescribing off-label means.I have two shelfmetres medical literature.What perhaps differs between our countries,that GP's as they would say in british,your general medical doctor,that you probably go,unless your condition is already known..they cannot off-label.So,to get what you suggest,I should see addiction field-specialized psysciatric doctor.There is only one in this town.I had met him couple of occasions,..nice fellow,no problem with that.
I know Ibogaine therapy.I mentioned that already.by the way,are you trying to say,there is on-label use? It's schedule I? Anyways,no seller(assuming there is one) in EU would not ship it to finland,and I don't have a "sitter",for that stuff.

I was no way suggesting you must ever do Iboga by yourself. In that film you hear the guy say it is very expensive but was worth it to him. But I know I know, this culture in yours and my country and Europe have made it SO very nearly impossible for people who would love nature's help to be able to receive it. I hate and loathe the powers that be that are still carrying on the evil legacy of the Inquisition---they are the utmost arrogant shits that have ever disgraced Earth.

[Chrizze]

Chrizze said:

,I should see addiction field-specialized psysciatric doctor.

And you have to be referred to any spcialist doctor,by to that,now usually twenty,or if I am lucky,early thirty something "GP",who knows shit.by the way,is it allowed in U.S or UK for a doctor,that works in goverment funded,or in U.S in a non - privately owned hospital (if there is any),to also have private practise? Here,that is a standard.

Johann,.as you know,that any member of U.S congress is not allowed to hold any official connections to anywhere else,do I remember right? Here it is quite normal,even expected,that member of house of representaves maintains tight connections to whatever connections she/he had for example.and those people that in U.S are "secretaries", here they also came from the crowd of representatives.so if we would switch our system overnight to U.S a same person could be secretary of defense,mayor of his hometown,and sit in numerous bords in multinational companies.and Prime minister is always the leader of winning party.that's not in the law,but is as sure,as that,that new pope will be selected from among cardinals.If I have understood right,there is only two formal requirements to be pope,..that you are catholic,and male.

[Chrizze]

I know,that about the powers that be,I hope,that one day they wouldn't be.

[ludolfo]

That is very uplifting song. I can feel the times they are a changing I saw this great talk by Paul Stamets the other day--he is one of the top mushroom experts--and he showed how the mushrooms connect undergraound by mycelium, and he compares this with the internet, and how we now --well some of us anyhow--can connect like we do HOPEFULLY connecting ways to undermine the toxic oppression that has stopped our natural intelligence and relationship with nature. I am NOT saying that pre-internet that wasn't also the case, and that Earth 'needs' technology, but now the internet is here, I'm hoping it will be used for the good

[JohannBessler]

What I meant,johann,was,that you did not had any comment in your post,that adddresses.anything,but last sentence.

C

Sorry about the delay in responding, Chrizze. I had to think deeply about what BlondeCanadian said, and try to understand what he meant. Tone is often misunderstood over the Internet.

I think he was putting forward the idea that, sometimes, people who need the help won't take it. This is true not only of depression patients, but also of addiction patients of gambling, alcohol, or drugs, too. This is frustrating to us.

My role is to offer a lifeline to people who struggle with problems. Very often, those people flat-out will not accept the help, and then one begins to wonder, "Maybe he just doesn't want to help himself at all." For example, I work with a man who has a severe addiction to gambling. I have told him about SSRIs and topiramate, but he won't even go to the doctor. Non-drug therapies exist, too, such as Gambling Anonymous, but he won't go there, either. This begs a question--if he doesn't want to do anything about his addiction, why did he come to me in the first place?

BlondeCanadian expressed frustration at this fact, and I agree with him--either the patient will accept the help, or he will not.

[ludolfo]

Shame?
I love the feeling that I am learning all the time. I hate people who are know-it-alls, and will not admit that they are learning things. Though I also may come across as a knowitall to some. You can't please everyone.

But I have learnt some things last few days that made me go WOW. First off a guy who knows his stuff about psychedelics said that LSD actually leaves the biological system after about one hour and a half, and the rest of the trip which can bu 10-12 hours is what LSD has activated

Today I watched a video where a psychologist is talking about the benefits of MDMA therapy:

“…It looks like MDMA allows one to enter into a state of consciousness where suddenly, maybe for some people for the very first time in their lives, they find themselves without shame. They find themselves with an open heart, where maybe for decades their heart has been closed and they haven’t even noticed it. So it allows for connection. The major effect of PTSD is the inability to make meaningful connections.
Judith Lewis Herman, a Harvard psychiatrist actually argues that all the syndromes listed and catalogued in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual that the American Psychiatric Association uses, all of it really boils down to PTSD. So if we can make headway with an efficient way of relieving people from the after-effects of trauma or traumas, then, in a way, we alleviate the entire field of mental distress. Not just what is not strictly believed to be PTSD.”

So it was when I heard him say about Judith Herman saying that I said 'WOW', because it makes so much sense. That all so-called 'mental illness' is a result of all kinds of trauma, and traumas. "According to Greek etymology, 'schizophrenia'actually means 'broken soul' or 'broken heart'." I had come to this insight about my own problems without any expert telling me this. I also have had experience of rescue dogs--I have one--who have had trauma, and you see this ingrained fear in them, even though you are going overboard to show love. There are breakthroughs but it is VERY subtle.

[JohannBessler]

^I don't think they know all the answers yet. We must remember that psychology--and its younger brother psychiatry--has only existed less than 100 years.

They don't yet know how life experiences affect the physiology of the brain, but I agree with you that it may have a role. We know now that bullying, for example, overexcites some neurons in a growing brain, causing permanent damage in the amygdala of the brain, making males, in particular, perpetually timid. As far as I'm able to discern, they haven't found an effective cure for that damage.

I believe that, sooner or later, psychology (your preferred approach) and psychiatry (my preferred approach) will merge. At this particular time, however, the prevailing school of thought holds that psychology, being more or less useless for most forms of mental illness, lies on its deathbed. (It still holds a very valuable role in PTSS, but so far shows little promise in treating depression.)

In my lifetime, however, I think the two schools of thought will merge. Only time will tell.

[JohannBessler]

^Chrizze, please don't get angry at us for discussing this. In the end, we're discussing it so that we can find a way to help you.

At this point, it looks like the best way to help you is by working with your sleep. Sleep deprivation works about 50% of the time. It's free, and it's easy to try, and Chrizze if it works for you you'll find immediate relief. I have some experience with it. I'll tell you about it.

My lady friend Karen suffers from terrible insomnia and clinical depression. She's tried a number of drugs; they either don't work, or they have bad side effects. The last one she was on--Effexor--worked, but it gave her crippling migraines, so she went off them. I suggested,"The next time you can't sleep, why don't you just stay up? Sleep dep cures depression sometimes."

So she did that one day.

You should have seen her! She was so chipper, so happy that day that I chuckled.

Later on, I asked her about it. She says the worst time is about two hours before you'd normally get up out of bed. In her case, she normally got up out of bed at noon, so between 1000hours and noon, she hit her worst spot. After noon, she said, "something kicks in, and you get energized. It lasts the rest of the day."

It's worth a try, Chrizze. If your depression leaves you for that period of time, you will know for sure if the University of Freiburg approach will work for you.

[ludolfo]

I don't like psychiatry. I don't like psychology. I am not here to help Chrisse. I would hate him to think I am here to 'help' him, like I would hate someone to say to me 'I am here to help you'. I find that SO patronizing. No, I am here as a human being who has been through the mill myself, and so can emphasize with people who also have hard times is all. So it is a friend reaching out, holding a hand kind of thing, and hopefully listening

I dont like psychology because in its mainstream form it is based on the idea that we are biological robots JUST like its big bro psychiatry, except the latter are allowed to certify us and push drugs and ECT on us. Though I think psychologists are looking for that power also

The reason I like Andrew Feldmar, who is a psychologist, is because he goes against the conformist ideas and oppressive power of psychology, and psychiatry as I am discovering:

[JohannBessler]

^But Ludolfo, his entire thread is a cry for help. Surely you see that? Why did you think he posted? I don't think he did it to work on his English skills. I saw it as a direct cry for help.

On an unrelated, I have met quite a few people who've been through that "talking through your problems and healing" approach, and who've never been helped by it, ludolfo. Some admit it, and some don't--they hang on to those approaches many years, even decades, without getting any better.

One person I knew went through all of that stuff, and said,"I came out of it still depressed, but the most insightful depressed person I know." Another person still hangs onto it, convinced that somehow "she'll heal". Well Ludolfo, it's been 30 years for her. How long is her "healing" supposed to take?

I myself have had some experience with "talking through your problems and healing" approach. All I can tell you is I have never seen anyone helped by it. In fact, by bringing immediate focus on problems, sometimes it seems to make it worse.

I know it didn't do diddly-squat for my dysthemia.

If it worked for you, however, I will not rain on your parade. In fact, I'd like to hear more about it, if you'd feel so inclined to share.

Apropos ECT, due to your strongest objections to it, I did do some more research on it. While the jury's still out on the physiological damage it might do, there does seem to be enough reasonable doubt to say, "Don't do ECT, unless your life is in immediate danger."

[bankside]

foremost person i can think of on substance use and/or abuse and/or mental health questions is Canada's own Dr. Gabor Maté

http://drgabormate.com/in-the-newsmedia/audio-visual/

[Chrizze]

Well,Johann,surely I am not writing to train my English.

[ludolfo]

All we have hear is text. We don't even have ways--that many except italics--to communicate inflections in voice, and certainly not expression of face, body language, and tone of voice. So that is the limits of this medium, here, and we have to do best we can. we CAN try and reflect closeness with words, and also share information and so on.

I of course do not only advice talking 'therapy'--though I dont consider me doing that. I have advised way above person centred counseling, because I also said that what is on offer by this State which includes most of the modern world, especially if you dont have much money, is either the docs/shrinks with their prescribed 'medication' OR the psychologists who also can treat you like a machine. For example, years ago I went to see a clinical psychologists, and his response to something I was going through was to tell me to use an imprinting technique. When I challenged him about it on the phone he came across as this fundamentalist preacher I was telling Jesus didn't exist. Absolutely no empathy at all.
So out of all thats on offer only PCC is alright because at least you are not pressured to take their pills, and are rather treated with respect and listened to. This DOES help, because it allows you to be able to express your thoughts and feelings without someone trying to judge or 'help'/'save' you.

By now people in this thread should know that I of course would want there to be more options that that. I am passionate about the need for MDMA and psychedelic healing, for example. But this culture is still in the dark ages about all that I am afraid, so we in the community again have to do it best way we can. Thing is, if and when psychedelic therapy is allowed, I should imagine it will be SO expensive that only the rich will be able to have it. THAT would be typical in THIS world.

As Andrew Feldmar says in the video, the medical authority is like the inquisition. Actually the androcentric medical authority came to their power via the Inquisition and the torture and mass murder of poor women who shared a very ancient knowledge of healing plants and herbs!

[JohannBessler]

All we have hear is text. We don't even have ways--that many except italics--to communicate inflections in voice, and certainly not expression of face, body language, and tone of voice. So that is the limits of this medium, here, and we have to do best we can. we CAN try and reflect closeness with words, and also share information and so on.

I agree with this a thousand times over! no, a million times! I've complained about it here on JUB many times.

As for the rest:

I think I have misunderstood you to a large extent, Ludolfo. Somehow, through it all, I'd misperceived you as promoting "talk therapy", and I'm afraid I have responded to you with that misperception in mind.

I don't know much about psychedelic healing, but I'll look into it. At first glance, it seems to show promise.

[Chrizze]

I have an appointment to my GP 19.10 I am going to ask for him to see,if there is place in local hospitals psychward,..it is not locked-in ward.main psychhospital is 70 miles away,..I am not ready,and to my understandind,it would be overkill anyway.after all,it was fourteen yrs.ago,since anything had been done to my medications on 24/7 surveillance.and there has been long gaps without any.

[ludolfo]

Physicalism: A Pernicious Cosmology

[Chrizze]

Maybe a little sooner,I just have to arrange couple of things.

[JohannBessler]

^Good luck to you, Chrizze. My thoughts are with you.

I hope you'll keep us posted.

[Chrizze]

I'll do...depending on which hospital,etc..and it's been 15years since the last time,..I think,probably everything has changed.

[JohannBessler]

^Chrizze, I don't know what Finnish doctors might suggest as a first-line approach. If they deem your condition to be life-threatening, however, they might indeed push the possibility of ECT.

I think Ludolfo would agree with me that if the doctors do push that possibility, I think you should make yourself fully aware of the risks. A small portion (1%?) suffer permanent memory loss, while a significant portion (40% or more) suffer temporary memory loss, usually the two-week period prior to the treatments.

A patient fully aware of all the risks makes the wisest choices.

I'll be thinking of you, man.

[Kulindahr]

I dont like psychology because in its mainstream form it is based on the idea that we are biological robots JUST like its big bro psychiatry, except the latter are allowed to certify us and push drugs and ECT on us. Though I think psychologists are looking for that power also

I've never met a psychologist with that sort of view, and I've worked with five, of schools from Jungian to Rogerian.

[Kulindahr]

Physicalism: A Pernicious Cosmology

But that's exactly the atheist viewpoint argued in every forum.

[Kulindahr]

^Chrizze, I don't know what Finnish doctors might suggest as a first-line approach. If they deem your condition to be life-threatening, however, they might indeed push the possibility of ECT.

I think Ludolfo would agree with me that if the doctors do push that possibility, I think you should make yourself fully aware of the risks. A small portion (1%?) suffer permanent memory loss, while a significant portion (40% or more) suffer temporary memory loss, usually the two-week period prior to the treatments.

A patient fully aware of all the risks makes the wisest choices.

I'll be thinking of you, man.

There's why ECT is most effective when the issue being dealt with is very recent. For things in the far past, I regard it as useless.

[Chrizze]

They never push it as a firstline,past 15yrs ago,they never even suggested it.and things has got better on that,..I wouldn't be surprised,if it's not been even used anymore.In fact,I haven't ever known anyone who got that...and I know,and have been known,plenty of people with these issues.

[Chrizze]

And it cannot be used against patients will,and if patient do not fully understand what is it about.even if patient is in hospital "against his/her will".

[JohannBessler]

^I have just finished reading some more research material on ECT. It appears that most of my knowledge on the subject when you first opened the thread has become obsolete.

They have fine-honed the procedure to a significant extent. Nowadays, in the United States, for the most part the electrodes are placed on only one side of the brain. Supposedly, this new procedure significantly reduces memory deficits. They call this procedure "unilateral" ECT, and they use a different machine entirely from the machine that was used in the 1970s and 1980s (they called that one "sine-wave"). They still use "bi-lateral" ECT on the new machines in a few cases.

Moreover, they don't administer the procedure in most cases unless 1) the patient is in immediate danger of losing his life and 2) they cannot wait for the six or eight weeks for antidepressants to take effect.

One psychiatrist recently stated,"We used to come to the patient with a suggestion of ECT; nowadays, they come to us."

I can relate to that. Remember my lady-friend Karen? She's tried a number of anti-depressants. Either they don't work, or she can't tolerate the side effects. She once told me,"Why won't they let me go directly to ECT? It seems stupid to me that they want me to go the long way around."

I mentioned the memory loss problems. She replied,"I don't care. I'll sign a disclaimer if I have to. All I want to do is get better."

That being said, Chrizze, bi-lateral ECT (the older, more effective one) has permanent memory loss rates of up to 10% (not 1% as I'd previously believed). I believe that a significant figure. However, they believe the various forms of ECT to be from 80-95% effective--more effective than any single other therapy.

In the end, Chrizze, the decision has to lie with you and your doctor. All I would suggest to you is "make an informed decision." That is to say, if the procedure is available to you at all in Finland.

Good luck to you man.

[ludolfo]

whatever you do Chrizze do not have ECT!!! It is barbaric, and utterly ignorant, and reflects the utter ignorance of this modern culture based on scientific materialism:

[JohannBessler]

^I would only advocate it if his life was in great peril, Ludolfo.

[Chrizze]

Please,stop fighting over my life.It is not in your hands.I appreciate both of you,and final treatment would consist pieces of both of your advice,but I don't think ECT. If your life is in danger in hospital,they pump you up of valium,or sorts..or if you are dangerously psychotic,neuroleptics,and strap you to you bed.Even my mother,who attempted suicide,when I was 3yrs old,had never ever heard about ECT,and she frequented mental institutions many times later.And let me remind,there is enormous difference,If I walk in,and ask for admittance,because I feel,that I might hurt myself,than when someone is dragged in,because he is danger to others.A form,that will be filled,is different,only thing same,is,that treatment happens in same building,..not necessarily in same ward even.And I do possess more medical information,than any person,who is not GP,should.You know,who adds knowledge,adds pain.

[ludolfo]

In 2000, I was doing a course for person centred counselling (I never went on to the next stage), and when there met a woman student who was middle aged. We all would be usually in circles (the students) and tell our stories etc. She said she'd had ECT and would go on how marvelous it was, but what she was apparently unaware of but which was apparent to me, and I think others, is that her words slurred and she appeared brain damaged, and it was really sad to see this!

[Chrizze]

Well,surely I don't need to be reminded,that meds are poisons,..and in long term,I may end up like my mother,but that,I think,is better to at least my relatives,than being a strange fruit in southern tree,in southern breeze.I really like to live in that world,which would have been designed for men to live.But this is not it.I hope,that one day it will be.Until then,I have to take next best thing.And since our country is highly medicalizated,and there is only 5 million people,..you could say,that counseling,and psychology practically don't exist here.Only in private sector,and even there,only few of the many "schools".so,..it's either rope,or dope,when it comes down to it.

[ludolfo]

Only 5 million?? We have 70 million on this little wet island! And how strange that they seem compassionate enough not to allow people to be homless but this does not stretch to offering alternatives for people who are psychologically distressed? what a fuked up world this is! Truly

[Chrizze]

My firm belief is,that exactly because few numbers of us,we can afforf to take care,and and cannot afford not to...but 70 million? Or 300 or what,in U.S? Million here,and there,who cares... And counseling takes time,and money,.. There is about 3000 new disability pensions granted each year,by psychological reason,..usually,to 20 - 30 years old people...our society just burns people from both sides of the candle,and the middle.This system,alonside with E.U is going to fail in couple of years...we have highest suicide rates in western europe.

I am honestly missing cold war times..things worked better then,..at least in our country.

[ludolfo]

I have never thought about Finland as being part of the Cold War times. I need to refresh my history knowledge. So you mean it was communist? Here we have the 'National Health Service' (NHS) but the present gangsters in power want to bash bash the 'poor'. They are stopping welfare left right and centre, and they want to end the NHS, and the cost of heating homes etc is going up tomorrow by 8 percent and it is raining, cold, so it is a complete nightmare for many people. Like you know this same shit is going on over Europe. It makes you wish for help--magical help. yesterday I was watched a video where it claimed that Buddhist monks had said they had 'seen' that in 2012 there is going to be intervention from alien beings...LOL. Things are so bad you want to believe this. I say that, but I have also seen SUCH unbelievable poverty in places like Africa that it makes you hesitant to moan. However it is all degrees isn't it. If your not happy you cant suddenly be happy because there is someone 'more' unhappy than you. In fact that would be quite sick

[ludolfo]

............but hey. lets not get too negative Ever tried stuff like this out?