Suicide attempt,that almost succeeded.But I only wanted pain to stop

[JohannBessler]

But Chrizze, your mental performance isn't impared--it's your REM cycles that are out of sync. You might be perpectually sleep deprived, and not consciously even know it.

So if you were to try the UofFreiburg treatment, you'd have to stay up all day in order to go to bed at 1800 hours for a week, then 1900 hours the next, etc.

If that doesn't appeal to you, there's one other approach to try. You will find this interesting reading. You will notice that he writes about being so happy--so goofy happy--that he annoyed the people around him:

Sleep Experiment – A Month With No Artificial Light | The Blog of J.D. Moyer

[ludolfo]

Just that kind of science fiction is not so common,and much more familiar from books,than films....what you think would be those that constitute such scifi? I would think..Isaac asimov,Arthur C.Clarke,All Russian writers,that has been published in west,..Doris Lessing...Dan Simmons..Aldous Huxley,.George Orwell.to mention a few.

I LOVED seeing the film 2001 A Space Odyssey. I even saw that film after taking LSD when I was 15, and living in London. It was the weirdest experience! Its director Stanly Kubrick is a brilliant director (MASSIVE loss to lose him!). Anyway, it is just weird enough when your not Tripping, but what happened was I also at parts of film began watching the audeince watching the film too LOL

I like The Matrix, and Bladerunner etc. It is when they explore dystopia I like, because I am very aware of that now. How technology can alienate people from each other, other species, and nature.

[ludolfo]

I always had have quite different circadian rhytm,than other people.If,it would be possible,I would be those.who would do only graveyard shift.when I am yaking couple of fays off of my (volunteer charity) job,I will go to sleep about 02:00 - 04-:00, and wake up about 12:00 - 13:00...I am in peak mental performance.

I am curious. Do you HAVE to do the "volunteer" work?

[Chrizze]

I depends,how you define word "have".The work I do,is that we collect food from supermarkets from our city,a couple of days before,when their "best before" date expires,and deliver them to poor and needy.our workers "salary" is that,we can take food home as much as we can carry.plus there is cook,that cooks a hot meal to us everyday.I havent bought anything from grocery store last eight years,except sugar,and smokes,..remember, I am in on disability pension,so this saves me about 350$ a month,.so, I can have iPads,and such things.so...no,no gunpoint,but practically,..yes.I want to have decent lifestyle.And at least contribute something back to society.Not that I care that much,but when someone is calling me "paracite" because of pension,I can straight things up.

[Chrizze]

JohannBessler: - very interesting thought indeed...but to go to sleep at 1800 ..its daytime here! In summer.But the whole idea itself seems very sound.yet another example how our evolution has not excatly managed to catch up last two centuries of technological changes in our life.

[Chrizze]

I like The Matrix, and Bladerunner etc. It is when they explore dystopia I like, because I am very aware of that now. How technology can alienate people from each other, other species, and nature.

Have you watched anything lately? I liked The Prometheus. Have you been reading Philip K.Dick's books? To me,he is influenced perhaps the most to my thinking...from scifi writers.

[JohannBessler]

JohannBessler: - very interesting thought indeed...but to go to sleep at 1800 ..its daytime here! In summer.But the whole idea itself seems very sound.yet another example how our evolution has not excatly managed to catch up last two centuries of technological changes in our life.

I can see that point of view.

Maybe it'd be better to start the regimen at the end of September, or October. By then, the days should be getting shorter.

It's worth a try, Chrizze. At least it's cheap, and if it doesn't work, you won't be any worse off.

[ludolfo]

Have you watched anything lately? I liked The Prometheus. Have you been reading Philip K.Dick's books? To me,he is influenced perhaps the most to my thinking...from scifi writers.

I rarely read science fiction or even fiction, but non fiction. The book I am reading at the moment is by Hans Peter Duerr titled Dreamtime: Concerning the Boundary between Wilderness and Civilization its a strange book in that it is quite thick but the actual book is not as big as the part with all the notes in. So your reading a page and looking at all the notes in as you go along ---well some of them lol

Remind me of the films made of Dick's books?

[Chrizze]

Completed Films

Blade Runner**(1982)
Based on "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"

Screamers**(1995)
Based on "Second Variety"

Total Recall**(1990)
Based on "We Can Remember It For You Wholesale"

Confessions d'un Barjo**(French, 1992)
Based on "Confessions of a Crap Artist"

Impostor**(2001)
Based on "Impostor."

Minority Report**(2002)
Based on "The Minority Report."

Paycheck**(December 25, 2003)
Based on "Paycheck."

A Scanner Darkly**(July 7, 2006)
Based on "A Scanner Darkly"

Next (April 27, 2007)
Based on "The Golden Man"



Films in Production

The Adjustment Bureau**(coming 2010)
Based on "The Adjustment Team"

King of the Elves**(coming 2012)
Based on "King of the Elves"

[ludolfo]

seen Bladerunner, A Scanner Darkley. Both great films.I loved seeing the film The Day of the Triffids, and actually that film is eerily similar to what is going on today.

[Kulindahr]

Well,your question was short also. ...And it was The question I am trying to find answers to right now too.Feelings about this are quite hard to put into words..I am not sure,If I feel at all.Perhaps I should hurt myself today,see if I do.You know the song?



To The loveguys72: -emotions about these things will be on the surface for a long time..And of course,it can be discussed,if suicide is ever rational..But it is an option.A very few people can acknowledge even that much.

I love and hate that song.

You posted that on my birthday, a birthday I had to spend mostly at home because I'm caring for my mom. It's easy for that to feel like a trap, and easy for that feeling to turn into depression because who wants to feel guilty about feeling chained to his mom?

I've tried suicide. Once the doctors didn't know why I wasn't dead. Another time all my careful preparations were undone when my roommate returned when he was supposed to be in class. The first time was because I thought I was so horrid that if I died, aliens on the other side of the galaxy would suddenly notice that life seemed brighter and more carefree, without knowing why. The second time was from pain I couldn't seem to escape.

But as my doc then said, sometimes running does take you away from problems: if you take a trip, go and do something adventurous, especially something you've wanted to do, something that requires mental attention and promises fun, your mind's aim can be shifted.

Some of my native American ancestors had a belief about wanting to die, that it meant it was time to go do something you thought worth dying for -- climb a challenging mountain, travel to aid people in trouble, whatever. You said money is no problem; maybe you should travel to a place where you can be of use while having time to just be yourself doing irrelevant things that look like fun. If your life seems empty, go somewhere else and see if you can try a different life.


BTW, you're farther ahead in the game than I was: you're communicating about it.

[Kulindahr]

That's right,exactly,pain in in nowhere,and everywhere.About philosophical side...this song have good lyrics too..

The song really needs the movie to make sense of it -- and the movie needs the song, for that matter. They very much go together.

[Kulindahr]

This song carries something similar,as "message".




By the way,have you ever been noticed,that if you hold,or claim to hold,"high ideals" about life,to yourself,or others,Fate will soon put you into test.

Whoa. That could have been the theme song for a fantasy role-playing game I wrote when I was in college: I called it SERVANT, the point being that no matter who you are or how how you think you've risen, you're still serving someone -- you're never free.

But the other point is that to some extent you can choose who you're going to serve -- something I found made a great difference in how I feel about wanting to live. Most of my life I've felt that being a servant, not being free, defined me; but that's what makes the world a burden... and life.

Someone wrote a rock song that said that in little acts of rebellion there is great freedom, or something to that effect. So one of the things I do is look for things that are actually "good deeds", that benefit someone, but break a rule.... then I feel more alive.

[Kulindahr]

Glad yopur weather's is sunny too I am delighted that you know about the mental illness myth! I am VERY grateful that many years back, I 'happened' to find this book--the cover of it really attracted me, and it was called The Myth of Mental Illness, by Thomas Szasz. Who know--if I hadn't found that book, I could have been taken in by this myth and gone on their stupid drugs.

My doc calls Szasz an idiot, but agrees he has one point, anyway: psychiatry is witch-doctory.

Mine's a neurological psychologist, who takes issue with Szasz for not being scientific -- though he concedes Szasz wrote before the pictures of the radically different brain activity in patients with different mental illnesses, and the difference in brain chemistry, had been established. But any drug addict can testify that Szasz is wrong: changes in brain chemistry make you think and behave differently; they do cause different thoughts and actions. And that only stands to reason; our brains are a heap of chemical activity, so altering that chemistry is going to change it.

I'm thankful I saw through Szasz when I read that book, or I would have just killed myself for certain.

BTW, the only thing wrong with the psych drugs is insufficient understanding of the brain -- they're doing alchemy. My doc says that to be able to develop proper drugs for brain problems, we need a sentient computer that can fully model a human brain and then observe its own functioning down to every binary operation.....

But the drugs they have aren't necessarily stupid: any drug that can calm the mind so people stop thinking they can step off a railing and catch the wisp of fog below to lower them safely to the river is a good thing. Though side effects... yeah, I was on one that affected my balance or whatever; I kept running into walls because I decided to turn and my body was slow to implement the decision (an interesting experience, though; I'd never been aware of any difference between deciding to take an action and my body doing it, and I got to observe it!).

[Kulindahr]

To be careful and smart in accepting treatments is one thing, but to exclude the possibility completely seems to me like a diabetic refusing insulin or a person with a broken ankle refusing a cane.

Absolutely.

Well, the way I come at this is that I am very aware that this culture suppresses psychedelic healing. I see psychedelics as sacred medicine. Sure, you can party with them, but their ancient meaning is deeply sacred! And unlike the whole concept of modern medicine which treats us like a machine-body, psychedelics can affect body, mind and soul. I feel with you Chrizze from how you have shared with me how you feel that you feel a big part of you has gone, and this was caused by the loss of your mum. That maybe you would like to be with her? You feel utterly lost here--in this 'mean' world. Alone and lost?
I think that with psychedelic experience taken with the intention for healing this deadness you feel that you could rekindle the lost part of self. You may think this an exotic idea, I don't know. But consider just how dramatic actual suicide is--it is LA FINALE. Babum--the end! So it may be wise then to at least consider some way of healing that is not as final and drastic as the complete ending of your life. I am VERY VERY interested in all about this so could offer you as much support and info as I can

Some people may warn people off this way. often you will hear warnings that people with 'mental illness' should not take psychedelics. Hmmm, but IF a person is getting ready to why NOT give it a go. What is there to lose? Psychedelics inspire flux. it is very easy for us to set-up a mind-set which goes over and over the bad shit in our lives, and also the regrets etc etc, but what psychedelics can do is allow a seeing and feeling OUT of this set or box, and re-invigorate, enliven, re-energize.
But if you were to choose to try this, great respect and care must be given to set and setting. To the intention. And I could give you suggestions, stuff to read to hopefully inspire you. other than that---energy comes with interest, passion in questioning and exploring. That is how it is for me anyway.

So you affirm the use of mind-altering chemicals. But you can't do that without agreeing that the use of psych medications is fine -- they're just different chemicals.

The problem is that the psychiatrists want to decide which chemicals are allowed and which aren't.

[Kulindahr]

Where I differ from Alan is that he tended to be like an apologist for Eastern beliefs where as I really include them in my critical list. I dont know if 'apologist' is right term---he would kind of make them seem that they were benevolent when 'properly' understood. But I just calls a spade a spade (as is a saying from here to mean 'I calls what I see'). Take Buddhism---their goal is stated as wanting to escape the cycle of birth and death. I see that as part of the patriarchal myths which sees the body and nature as a trap. I also am against the whole Guru trip--of so-called holy men claimed to be 'enlightened' and more advanced from 'you'

That's the "spiritual" take on Buddhism. Another way to put it is to "escape the cycle of care" -- that is, of worry, stress, etc. Buddhism is very much a course in what Jesus said in one short statement (the New Berkeley rendition): "Don't sweat tomorrow".

[Kulindahr]

How would you evaluate my english language skills? What mistakes I tend to make?what needs improvement,etc? I ask,because,I want to make things right.I know,that I would probably pass as an american any day (my american friend said so),but probably never as englishman,unless I move there,and live there 20yrs.

I've noticed your English improving over the course of this thread.

You write better than most American high school graduates, definitely.

[Kulindahr]

One thing in Finnish,what is rampant in english,and rare in Finnish,are so called "phrasal verbs",when I got that idea,whole language suddenly opened to me,almost overnight.before that,Already had quite good vocabulary,but still wondered,why I not understand,for example,lyrics of some song.

Phrasal verbs arise to a large extent from the refusal by a language to assemble compound verbs. For example, "eat out" is a phrase in English that in many languages would be combined into "eatout" -- which is more efficient because it's then possible to distinguish between two entirely different things: "eat out" is both a phrasal verb and a verbal phrase, meaning to eat somewhere other than at home or to eat from, e.g. "We ate out last night, at Kalko's", v. "We ate out of frisbees, because we didn't have plates."

OTOH they can give flexibility, because some phrasal verbs let you put the verb's object in between, e.g. "I asked Dana out" as opposed to "I asked out Dana" (though some would say that "to ask out" isn't properly a phrasal verb, because "out" as functioning as an adverb).

[Kulindahr]

Are you aware about the Linguist called David Crystal? ..,His big,almost A2 sized 400- or so pages "bible" solely about grammar? it's very easy to read,but even one sentence in his books contais more information,than ten in any other. this is the book I have,and Talk about:

The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language - David Crystal

I also have this book from him:

The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language - David Crystal


Editing timeout again is readon for this almost a double post.why not even 20 minutes?

Crystal is . . . supreme.

[Kulindahr]

Yes,I have read about those studies as well.,..but what bothers me,is a kind of an "chicken and the egg" problem...are you depressed,because you serotonin levels are low? Or will your serotonin levels go down,when you get depressed? If first is true,then there maybe place for medication,but if it is latter,it would be,like taking some other drug to feel better..like,I occasionally have this habit with opiates..I don't try to prove either theory,since it is impossible to me,but they still can't measure what exactly happens on those synaptic clefts,where those drugs are suppose to take action..I don't think,that blood levels are accurately enough to tell things.It would perhaps clarify things,if it would be posdible to administer those neurotransmitter chemicals,serotonin,dopamine,or norepinephrine directly,but those chemicals don't cross blood-brain barrier.

Depression Tests -- Blood Tests, Screening, and Other Tests

They conduct tests to rule out OTHER possibilities,and diseases..not to find depression itself.At least that is what this article seems to tell me.

There's a feedback loop, according to my doc.

There's been research into skull patches for delivering drugs: they'd plant a time-release mechanism against your skull with tendrils into the brain; it would get loaded on a regular basis with a syringe through the scalp.
The idea gives me the creeps....

[Kulindahr]

<continued>

Anyway, Chrizze, I thought I would at least tell you what the researchers at the University of Freiburg found.

With the help of ECTs, they noticed that depressed patients have a different sleep architecture than "normal" people. Specifically, depressed patients go into REM right away, while "normal" patients take about an hour and a half to reach the first cycle of REM. This led them to conclude that depressed patients have a sleep architecture that is "out of sync".

So they took a bunch of depressed patients and "resynced" their sleep architecture. Supposedly, they had over a 60% success rate. What's better is that the cure was "permanent", that is, the patients did not experience a relapse when tested some time later.

Here's how it works.

Take the normal time you go to bed. Let's assume it's 2 o'clock in the morning.

For the first night, you will have to stay awake all night. Then, at 6'oclock that night, go to sleep. Stay in bed until 2'oclock the next morning. (You will note that you will be getting out of bed at the same time that you used to GO to bed).

Continue on for a week. Do not deviate at all.

Then, go to bed one hour later for a week. That is, go to bed at 7, then get up at 3.

The next week, go to bed at 8. Get up at 4.

Continue this progression until you get to the point where you go to bed when you want, then get up 8 hours later.

What happens here is that your sleep architecture will re-sync itself. If you think of this in terms of a DSL modem, it'll make sense. A DSL modem, once in a while, needs to be re-synced in order to work properly.

I draw this information directly from a textbook called Biological Psychology, if you're interested. Copies can be gotten for cheap over the Internet.

I urge you to try this, if you don't want to take the drugs. Why not? The worst thing that'll happen is that it won't work--and then, you won't be any worse off than you are now, will you?

Let me know if you want to hear the other idea. It hasn't been scientifically tested, but it might be easier, Anecdotal reports suggest that there is a dramatic improvement in mood.

That's got things ion common with what I used to do: I'd go camping for two weeks, and if I felt like going to bed, I;d go to bed, and if I woke up feeling fresh, Id get up. I never thought to keep track of any patterns, but I do recall spending some nights awake all night, swimming or canoeing, while everyone else around was asleep, as well as sometimes having breakfast when others were having dinner, etc.

[Chrizze]

From Kulindahr:

Some of my native American ancestors had a belief about wanting to die, that it meant it was time to go do something you thought worth dying for -- climb a challenging mountain, travel to aid people in trouble, whatever. You said money is no problem; maybe you should travel to a place where you can be of use while having time to just be yourself doing irrelevant things that look like fun. If your life seems empty, go somewhere else and see if you can try a different life.

That's very interesting,and makes sense,.. Where I said,that money is not the problem? To survive everyday,not,but otherwise,almost The biggest problems I have.Welcome to my thread,by the way.

[Kulindahr]

From Kulindahr:

That's very interesting,and makes sense,.. Where I said,that money is not the problem? To survive everyday,not,but otherwise,almost The biggest problems I have.Welcome to my thread,by the way.

Tanks.

There's a parallel tradition, for when someone finds out they're going to die and nothing can be done: go tackle heroic deeds until one kills you. The idea is to not surrender to something ignominious, but to something glorious.


Sorry about the deluge of posts. I guess I was a bit manic last night!


I didn't say much about the feedback loop: it isn't supposed to work that way. In a normal system, there are reactions to depression that are supposed to help stabilize; when something goes wrong, the feedback heads away from equilibrium instead of towards it.


BTW, I have a service dog. When he's paying attention, he can derail an anxiety attack before it gets bad. I keep forgetting to ask my doc how the chemistry of that works. When he's doing what he's trained to (he isn't consistent, but I'm still better off with him than without), he can do in a couple of minutes what it takes the common medication twenty or thirty. There's got to be an actual chemical reaction going on there, if his hugs and kisses can take the place of and do a better job than a pill!

[JohannBessler]

BTW, I have a service dog. When he's paying attention, he can derail an anxiety attack before it gets bad. I keep forgetting to ask my doc how the chemistry of that works. When he's doing what he's trained to (he isn't consistent, but I'm still better off with him than without), he can do in a couple of minutes what it takes the common medication twenty or thirty. There's got to be an actual chemical reaction going on there, if his hugs and kisses can take the place of and do a better job than a pill!

What's he do when he sees an attack coming?

[Kulindahr]

What's he do when he sees an attack coming?

If I'm sitting, he comes and lays his head in my lap or on my arm. If I'm standing, he'll lean against me or lick my leg.

[bankside]

Kulindahr you should consider getting a service person to cover those duties when the dog is distracted.

[JohannBessler]

If I'm sitting, he comes and lays his head in my lap or on my arm. If I'm standing, he'll lean against me or lick my leg.

Something you said earlier resonated with me, Kulindahr, because I'd just watched the aforementioned 1940sHouse, in which a modern family was taken back into Wartime England.

One of the principals--Lyn (Granny)--became absolutely overwhelmed by the privations she had to endure, so when the War Office came knocking for volunteer work, she accepted.

During the course of the program, she states on camera that her volunteer work served her very well as a kind of Prozac for the hardships. Indeed, someone notiiced that during the War, mental hospitals lost 30% of their patients.

This correlates very well with what your Native American ancestors told you about "wanting to die" actually serving as some kind of "calling".

Which begs the question: what about volunteer work serves as an antidepressant? It makes you wonder.

[Kulindahr]

Kulindahr you should consider getting a service person to cover those duties when the dog is distracted.

Like a cute 19-y.o. who could lean against me and lick my leg?

[ludolfo]

Hey Chrizze hows things?

[Chrizze]

Nothing new...I am still alive.

[ludolfo]

[Chrizze]

I have made a decision start fasting,and really sort these things in my mind.I can't wait for years,..this puzzle is prohibiting me from living.I only exist.And that's a hard work by in and on itself.Why fasting? Because I am a Person of faith too,and since my mind and soul is in torment,I will not allow my body to have any pleasures either.It will be a waterfast.It gives me a 50 - 90 days to sort things out for myself,depending on my physics.Or die in trying.

[JohannBessler]

^If you do a waterfast, after about 30 days your body will lose its taste for food forever. This fact has been known since at least the 1960s.

Please be careful, Chrizze. I empathize with everything you're going through, and I'm convinced that there is a way to treat your depression, but a careless regimen of too-rigorous dieting might rob you of the chance to live a productive life.

[Chrizze]

Well,.I have lost it already,because of grief,I guess.I have been practically just been drinking tea,and smoking,after my mother's death.but my way of drinking tea is quite a powerdrink: 0.5 litres cup,half a tea,half a milk,and 50gr sugar.that's why I am not yet have been in "starvation mode" ever since,because that sugar has been enough to power my body..and some junk food here and there.

[JohannBessler]

But Chrizze, we all have to face the death of a loved one sooner or later. We grieve, but we do learn to live with our grief, and grow to lead productive lives.

Your reaction to that grief shows that you have clinical depression. They can treat it quite successfully the vast majority of times.

Have you tried over three antidepressants? If so, you may qualify for ECT. ECT has some side effects (short term memory loss) but it stands as the most effective treatment available.

You are an intelligent, caring human being, who has youth, and who looks nice, too. I just hate to see a man in his youth suffer from depression. A person is only young once, and you deserve to enjoy that youth.

I urge you to go see your doctor again. Would you feel comfortable trying ECT?

[Chrizze]

No,we all don't survive a loss of a loved one.Friend of my friend,for example,when her mother died,took his car,and bottle of whiskey,and drove his car into the wall of rock,150mph.

I have tried over seven antidepressants,from all classes,SSRI,SNRI,etc...the last one,and there is none left after this,is what I use now,Wellbutrin.it works at least by giving energy,it's modified amphetamine,after all.and first one,with no side-effects.Lyrica was also good,as replacement for benzos,because it works same way,but does not stop to work.(we have it accepted for Generalized Anxiety Disorder,here,in EU).but can't afford it,with wellbutrin,thanks to that bloodsucking Pfizer Company.

I know I have depression,I was first time in mental hospital in 1997.but I have also personality disorders.You can't fix those.

ECT is relatively rare treatment in here.probably,because it's "amazing" effects are temporary only,and therefore considered as emergency treatment to those with schizophrenia,or depression,with PSYCHOTIC properties in imminent danger of suicide.And you have to be inpatient.
Thanks,but man with grey in his sides can't be young anymore.Of course I see doctor,I haven't a specialist doctor yet.appointment is 2.10

[Kulindahr]

I have made a decision start fasting,and really sort these things in my mind.I can't wait for years,..this puzzle is prohibiting me from living.I only exist.And that's a hard work by in and on itself.Why fasting? Because I am a Person of faith too,and since my mind and soul is in torment,I will not allow my body to have any pleasures either.It will be a waterfast.It gives me a 50 - 90 days to sort things out for myself,depending on my physics.Or die in trying.

If you've never fasted before, start with a two-week fast. After that, eat simply -- minimal meat -- for about the same period, and then do your serious fast. Your body will have "learned" it can handle a fast, and the simple foods after will help clean/balance your system to prepare for the long haul.

Well,.I have lost it already,because of grief,I guess.I have been practically just been drinking tea,and smoking,after my mother's death.but my way of drinking tea is quite a powerdrink: 0.5 litres cup,half a tea,half a milk,and 50gr sugar.that's why I am not yet have been in "starvation mode" ever since,because that sugar has been enough to power my body..and some junk food here and there.

This is a good idea. But change one thing: no processed sugar! Use honey instead, raw if you can get it. The honey has a number of benefits over processed sugar, one being that it contains substances that actually help reduce hunger, especially raw honey, and its also boosts your immune system (again, more so if it's raw).

What I've done for tea when fasting is alternate between different kinds, e.g. green and black, and fruit teas. The fruit ones have their own antioxidants to complement those from the regular tea.

After several week,s that milk may start doing unpleasant things to your system, though it may not (I've never had problems, but a couple of friends did). BTW, on the subject of dairy, if you like good cheese, a small slice of a good sharp (really sharp) cheddar will do good things for you.

Many people think that paying attention to your body while fasting is pointless. However, keeping yourself healthy is a bonus, because you'll think more clearly.

I found that spending two hours each morning listening to mellow instrumental music was a great help for focusing; it put my mind into a receptive/creative mode and left me with no distractions. The first few days it's actually hard: the idea is to let go of all thoughts and just "absorb" the music, its structure and balance.

Lastly, I've never fasted past thirty-two days, so after that I have no advice.

[Chrizze]

It will be tea,without sugar,or milk,..milk has too much energy,and carbohydrates,and will slow body's enter to ketosis (fat burning) state.which should take no more than 4 days,..after that,you are not hungry.when fats are burned,then body will start to break down lean muscle.which means,that you will die sooner,than later.body will alarm you between these two states.

[bankside]

I understand that fasting can cause the body's cellular machinery to enter "repair mode" but what I recall reading seemed to suggest only a day or two was necessary. Also, is this a fast in the same way as ramadan? Dawn till dusk, with meals after? Or days and weeks of only liquids?

[JohannBessler]

^That is called "autophagy", Bankside. It's supposed to be very good for the body.

http://jdmoyer.com/2012/02/01/death-will-eat-itself/

[JohannBessler]

Chrizze:

It's hard to tell by the context what your motives are in implementing this fast.

But if you're trying to practice asceticism, in order to gain discipline, I have another idea. This idea comes from Larry Hagman, who did it for over 20 years.

Absolute silence for one day a week. That means no talking, no writing (even in here) no emails to other people, etc. It's supposed to do wonders for self-awareness, although I'm not sure how it's supposed to work.

[Kulindahr]

I understand that fasting can cause the body's cellular machinery to enter "repair mode" but what I recall reading seemed to suggest only a day or two was necessary. Also, is this a fast in the same way as ramadan? Dawn till dusk, with meals after? Or days and weeks of only liquids?

Somewhere around the tenth to fifteenth day, perceptions and thinking become clearer. I can attest to that: during one fast, my Greek translation assignments became a breeze instead of heavy lifting, and philosophy material I'd been in misery over seemed to fall into their logical place.

Some people, when fasting long-term, find they need less sleep. Another friend, who faster every Lent I knew him, got to sleeping only four hours a night; with the extra time, he devoured a mix of theology, history, and theo-historical fiction. He tested himself, too, and found he was reading a good 20-25% faster. Oh; he, too, found Greek suddenly easier.

So it's long been a method to use when one is interested in self-examination. For some people, memories become clearer and things not normally remembered can be recalled.

For such purposes, a balance is generally sought just as the point the body starts eating itself -- generally just a little butter on toast each morning is sufficient, unless you're like another friend who was a work-out freak, and insisted on doing his five-mile run every morning and two-mile swim every evening. He maintained that the exercise kept his body from eating itself; I'm not certain that worked. Oh -- for his fat ration, he had about a tablespoon of avocado mixed with half a one of butter and half a cubic centimeter of sharp cheddar cheese, all pureed together.

One thing I remember is that music seemed almost other-worldly, or maybe transdimensional or something.

[Kulindahr]

Absolute silence for one day a week. That means no talking, no writing (even in here) no emails to other people, etc. It's supposed to do wonders for self-awareness, although I'm not sure how it's supposed to work.

I've done that as a part of therapy when I was having sever anger problems. Interestingly, I was allowed to write, but only memories about things that had made me angry, and allowed to "speak", but only for yelling when buried anger cam from something I remembered. From my experience, it's best to find a place without visual complexity and few audio distractions -- I chose a gavel bar once, but the small pond between two high dunes I found later was better.

With the low sensory input, it does work wonders for self-awareness, because it leaves you little else to attend to.

[ludolfo]

I have made a decision start fasting,and really sort these things in my mind.I can't wait for years,..this puzzle is prohibiting me from living.I only exist.And that's a hard work by in and on itself.Why fasting? Because I am a Person of faith too,and since my mind and soul is in torment,I will not allow my body to have any pleasures either.It will be a waterfast.It gives me a 50 - 90 days to sort things out for myself,depending on my physics.Or die in trying.

Hey Chrizze, sorry for late reply, I have been away from computer for a bit. I am so sorry to hear of how you are suffering and wish I could put arm around you and comfort you. Like I have said before, I cannot imagine what your going through because personally the thought of losing my mum is a terrible dread.
I cannot BELIEVE people here are recommending you have ECT!!! You must never have that fukin barbaric shit, it will definately damage your brain. I have planety of evidence for this, but can imagine you are not really in the mood to wade through it. But trust me. Also the pills they give now for "depression"--a;; they do is suppress feeling. That is it. I realize that people have the freedom to either take them or not depending on how desperate they are, and what is on offer. But do NOT be misled to believe their hype that they "treat depression". It is a lie.
Why do you want to punish your body? That is the LAST thing you should be doing. YOu, who are your body too, are severely traumatized with grief, and you do not want to punish your body more, you want to LOVE and nourish your bodymindsoul. You cannot do that by harming it with lack of goo nutrition like you are doing with the cigarettes tea and sugar, nor going from that to a severe fast. It is like you think by punishing your self this will help, and it wont.

Rather see that the tea in great amounts (and I am English so I know all about tea LOL) and ciggies is your way of trying to find comfort. That is a very English tradition, that when one is feeling bad someone will say "would you like a nice cup of tea?", and it is the warmth and 'pick-me-up' experience of drinking tea that brings a little comfort. Same with cigarettes, and the sugar gives the body a rush--blood sugar level---too. But it is all shortlasting, and not good in the long run. A big reason you will be feeling down is due to what you are putting into your body. Sugar for example is bad for you. It is an anti-nutrient. I was addicted to sugar as a kid and would have 6 spoons in a small cup and even MILK. But I will not touch the fukin evil stuff now. Only the occasional biscuit, where sugar is added. So I know what I am talkin about cause I have had to study this. My mum had a heart attack in the 80s and i HAD to learn about nutrition because the medical profession were useless!

So please trust me. LOVE your body. Love yourself through your grief, and do not punish yourself. Please, start eating well. This will include incorporating greens, fruits...I just found this that may be of help Nutrition, Exercise, and Grief

You need exercise. Even if you have to force it at first. Instead of having disipline for some fast that will harm you, use it to make sure you begin getting regular exercise. You will start feeling better, I promise. And also what I have done sometimes is when walking, you can express how your feel vocally, because your energy levels begin to rise and expressing emotions also adds to this.

So please Chrizze, do not hate your body because your soul feels in torment. To me that makes no sense. Your body is you as much as your soul is and how better your body feels so will your soul.

[JohannBessler]

^Ludolfo, I respect your opinion, but clinical depression can be fatal.

If his depression is life-threatening, discounting the possibility of medical treatment seems downright foolish to me. It might cost a life.

[JohannBessler]

With the low sensory input, it does work wonders for self-awareness, because it leaves you little else to attend to.

I understand what this means in theory, but in practice, what does it mean?

Does it mean that you look inward, and find the things that make you happy? Or does it make you a better listener? In other words, what palpable changes occur?

The definition of "self-awareness" seems vague to me.

[ludolfo]

^Ludolfo, I respect your opinion, but clinical depression can be fatal.

If his depression is life-threatening, discounting the possibility of medical treatment seems downright foolish to me. It might cost a life.

This is because you believe depression is a mental disease, and I do not. But this is not the place for me and you to debate about this. But I will defend Chrizze from your 'help', and leave him to make his own mind up.

[Chrizze]

To Bankside: - only liquids,and no cigarettes,of course.

To JohannBessler: well,to me,it seems,that I clearly stated the context.But I want to see also,how much my mind conditions are,because that industrial food we eat.with all those additives,etc...but that's really a sideline,or bonus.The last sentence is the key "or die in trying,because,if fasted long enough,that's what will happen.I want to know,do I really want it,when it starts to loom in horizon.

To Kulindahr: -those feelings are also,what I have heard from other people,who had practised waterfast,doing very good.up to the point,when fat reserves are exhausted.

To Ludolfo: - I have thought,that sometime in the distant future,they are showing pictures about refined sugar,like they do about Cocaine,etc,now.I used to use huge amounts of milk..in then years,or so ago.one litre for one hot meal.now only with tea.because,I noticed,that it masked the taste of the food,..now I don't drink anything with food.Just a tea after it.I know,Drug is a Drug,I have quite extensive history with illicit ones,..they give you good feeling,but don't cure the reason giving you bad one.Your brain really can't make distinction,whether you pour cocaine,heroin,or psych meds into it.they will adapt,you get tolerance,need more,have to switch to other,get withdrawals.There is no difference between licit and illicit,except just that.I don't try to punish my body,not at least in that way I see you understand,that I would.

[ludolfo]

I have made a decision start fasting,and really sort these things in my mind.I can't wait for years,..this puzzle is prohibiting me from living.I only exist.And that's a hard work by in and on itself.Why fasting? Because I am a Person of faith too,and since my mind and soul is in torment,I will not allow my body to have any pleasures either.It will be a waterfast.It gives me a 50 - 90 days to sort things out for myself,depending on my physics.Or die in trying.

Chrizze, I hope you don't mind, but I want to get an even closer feel of what you are saying here, so I well take bits of what you say so I may understand you better?

I have made a decision start fasting,and really sort these things in my mind.I can't wait for years,..this puzzle is prohibiting me from living.

I am hoping that all the advice being given here from really different viewpoints isn't adding to your distress? Be honest.

You say 'I have made a decision' I respect that. it is YOUR decision.

And then I come along and say 'no don't do that do this'.

I am though only saying that because I personally feel nutrition will help you gain energy and well being, because of what I have learnt, both reading and for myself and after helping my mum recover from a heart attack, and serious illnesses she has had in the past, and my own, and how I felt in the past when I abused myself on various bad foods, crinks, and ciggies, and drugs.

HOWEVER there are psychological reasons some people will choose to fast, as a way to release toxins from the body and mind. Water is a great rehydrater for the body, and of course cleanser also.

I can't wait for years,..this puzzle is prohibiting me from living.I only exist.And that's a hard work by in and on itself.

Will you tell me what you mean please? What 'puzzle'?

Because I am a Person of faith too

, what faith is that Chrizze? Christian? Were you brought up that way by your mum?

and since my mind and soul is in torment,I will not allow my body to have any pleasures either.

This really intrigues me where you say this. I understand that your mind and soul is in torment, because of the loss of the dearest person in the world to you, your mum. But I do not understand then when you say that because of that pain you must not let your body have any pleasures 'either'. I will be honest with you Chrizze, and you may have already found this out from previous things I have said here and in other threads. I am not mad on Christianity. I am more earth-centred pagan in love with the Goddess, and nature. With Christianity there happens a duality between the person and nature and the person and their body which I sense in what you say above. But in Goddess understanding nature is sacred, and so are Her cycles of life, death, and regeneration. I mean when you were in your mother's womb, hopefully all of your mind, soul, and body's needs were being taken care of? And that is how it should be, unless the mum takes toxic substances which harm the foetus in the womb which continues once she gives birth to her baby.
What has happened is natural. People die. One day you will die, and me, and everyone contributing to this thread, and everyone who posts at the JUB forums etc etc. Life, death, regeneration. Life and death are always together as a dynamic process. So for example, every tap of my keys as I type this is kind of like the death of movement. The previous moment has to 'die' for the next moment to live, and so it goes. And these cycles of course include actual physical death which is part of the cycles of this great Mystery which we are all involved in--are moving in, life, death, regeneration. I know your mum will wish the best for you Chrizze. She will be wanting you to grieve, and express all of that emotion, but also to love your mind, soul and body. Really love them. Not cause pain (the opposite of pleasure) but nurture yourself. Shut your eyes and imagine your self giving yourself the most loving hug. Dissolve into that thought, image. Take sustenance from this, and allow it to take action in from now on as you help yourself recover, which will include a small fast if you desire, but looking into nutrition and how important it is for body mind and soul which is all one amazing dynamic process of being, including exercise. it doesn't have to be crosscountry lol. Just say, go for a walk for 20 minutes, and get fresh air, and then gradually increase. Exercise is wonderful Chrizze and will reinvigorate your being, but of course you will need nutrition of the energy needed.

[ludolfo]

To Ludolfo: - I have thought,that sometime in the distant future,they are showing pictures about refined sugar,like they do about Cocaine,etc,now.I used to use huge amounts of milk..in then years,or so ago.one litre for one hot meal.now only with tea.because,I noticed,that it masked the taste of the food,..now I don't drink anything with food.Just a tea after it.I know,Drug is a Drug,I have quite extensive history with illicit ones,..they give you good feeling,but don't cure the reason giving you bad one.Your brain really can't make distinction,whether you pour cocaine,heroin,or psych meds into it.they will adapt,you get tolerance,need more,have to switch to other,get withdrawals.There is no difference between licit and illicit,except just that.I don't try to punish my body,not at least in that way I see you understand,that I would.

do you want to continue the English Lesson?

I have thought that sometime, in the distant future, they will be showing pictures of refined sugar, like they do of Cocaine,etc, now. I used to use huge amounts of milk... years,or so ago. One litre for one hot meal, and now only with tea. Because, I noticed,that it masked the taste of the food,..now I don't drink anything with food, just a tea after it. I know, a drug is a drug, I have quite extensive history with illicit ones,..they give you good feeling, but don't cure the reason giving you bad one. Your brain really can't make distinction,whether you pour cocaine, heroin,or psych meds into it. They will adapt, and you get tolerance, need more, have to switch to other, and get withdrawals.There is no difference between illicit and illicit, except just that. I don't try to punish my body,not at least in that way I see you understand, that I would.

Yes, I will not go near refined sugar!! If I do needd top have a bit I will choose brown unrefined sugar. Please try and steer clear of it Chrizze.

Yes you are right, both illicit and legal drugs suppress how we feel when used habitually. Even what indigenous people anciently have called sacred medicine (psychedelics), these too can also be abused if they are used for escape from reality.

I have seen enough times the powerful lesson that people who are heroin users believe they are numbing their complex pain, however no matter how long they have been on it, as soon as they detox, ALL the pain is still there and has to come out! This is so important to understand. That emotional feeling has to be allowed expression. If suppressed it is still there.

What drug did you take Chrizze?