another confused asshole

[angstandsarcasm]

So I've been reading this forum. I want to keep this short because who wants to read some obnoxiously long thing, but then I also feel the desire to keep at bay any assumptions. Tough life, huh? Anyhow. (PS NOTE UP TOP: It ended up long, oh noes!)

I guess I'll say that I feel as if I'm one of the most indecisive/unsure people alive. This is hardly contained to the "sexuality" issue alone: I don't know what dinner I'll prefer, if I'm even hungry, if I should take a shower, my opinion about many things--that pertain to myself. For, I am definitely opinionated when it comes to morality, the arts, other people's situations (e.g. advice), but when it comes to myself, I'm am always struck by this. I hardly think I'm the only one going through this or whatever.

I'm 20. In college. I've never been in a real relationship, unless you want to count elementary school (hint: it doesn't count). I've never ever kissed someone, unless you want to count a dare in 8th grade (hint: it doesn't count). This didn't really bother me throughout high school, but lately it has started to bother me. (As does being concerned with my appearance, which is weird. It feels like biology has told me to be a 15yo all the sudden since I skipped over that. I'm more angsty and assholeish than I've ever been.

Fuck, where is this post going? So, yeah, I'm confused. I don't know what I'd label myself (labels aren't necessary! They're chains!). I think often about having a girlfriend, lying down with them and talking, making out, just being with them and loving them (emotionally). But I can't say I think about them sexually *too* much. I do think some girls are hot (or at least cute). But am I just appreciating beauty? Maybe. I would like to try sexual stuff with a girl and a relationship.

When I jerk off, it's mostly to guy stuff. (Though I could jerk off simply by the motion of doing it, is that weird?). But it's nothing hardcore. It'll be a picture of a shirtless guy and that can be enough. The thought of anal doesn't really work for me, but then again I don't think I'd do that with a girl. I would try sucking dick (and getting mine sucked). But I don't really watch hardcore gay porn, the most is maybe jacking off solo, but I don't really find those attractive. I'm not sure I find penises all that attractive (oh, that's a big one...), but I'm not sure I find boobs all that attractive either. Asexuality. Well, I'm just not one to fetishize certain body parts, which makes me feel odd. Just seeing a penis or vagina does nothing for me, I don't know.

What the fuck am I even saying here? This is too long, and I'm obnoxious. I'm sorry. I would say I'm almost always ill at ease, feel often envious of guys (can't think of time it's been a girl) who seem to feel *at ease* (which is perpetuated through a number of coexisting superior qualities to myself), and that I also feel this flicker, this shiver, of not hate but supreme annoyance at myself when I feel this envy--and when I feel a sort of attraction to the guy. When the two go hand in hand, ugh.

The fact that I can worry about this issues showcases how fortunate I am. These aren't life or death things. It's trivial. It's not important. I'm self-absorbed. But I might as well indulge since I'm a shithead anyhow.

I'm happy to answer questions. Thanks for reading.

[Seasoned]

Welcome to the forum. I'd like to advise you to stop calling yourself names. That's not getting you anywhere. It sounds to me as though you are doing more thinking than living. It also seems as if you are trying to convince yourself that you're straight. Posting your musings on a gay website ought to tell you something.

What do you think your issue is with not finding genitals attractive and jerking off to shirtless men? Are you afraid of intimacy? Are you sexually insecure or do you have performance anxiety. While there are certain expectations with male/female sexual relationships, gay guys can opt to define their sex play more freely. What you do or don't do would be up to you and your partner.

You don't mention friends. If you're not relating to people in social situations outside of the classroom I'd suggest that's where you ought to start. Join a study group or a club. In any case I think it would be best if you thought less and acted more. If you're going to limit life to figuring things out you'll cheat yourself out of experiences which will lead you to the truth. If you have serious issues relating to people I'd suggest some therapy to help you with that.

You might want to send some PMs to people here with whom your comfortable. In any case, I hope you become an active member and keep posting.

I'm really glad you're here attempting to make some sense of things at 20 rather than 40. Good luck to you.

[angstandsarcasm]

Thanks for responding. Yeah, I'm self-deprecating, but it probably comes as obnoxious, which I understand. It's something I need to work on a bit.

What do you think your issue is with not finding genitals attractive and jerking off to shirtless men? Are you afraid of intimacy? Are you sexually insecure or do you have performance anxiety. While there are certain expectations with male/female sexual relationships, gay guys can opt to define their sex play more freely. What you do or don't do would be up to you and your partner.

Issue--socially? Morally? None, really. I just feel like it's a bit odd and sort of disconcerting for me, personally. And I'm not sure if it's natural or perhaps rooted in some sort of denial, I don't know. It's how I feel and react now, at least. Afraid of intimacy? Well, I'm not sure if you're speaking sexually or not, but I would say I have some reservations in both manners. I don't like to get too close to people, but at the same time I have a strong desire for a healthy, solid (monogamous) relationship. Yeah, true on those last two points, though I'm really not all that knowledgeable about the subject, much of which is obviously due to my lack of experience.

You don't mention friends. If you're not relating to people in social situations outside of the classroom I'd suggest that's where you ought to start. Join a study group or a club. In any case I think it would be best if you thought less and acted more. If you're going to limit life to figuring things out you'll cheat yourself out of experiences which will lead you to the truth. If you have serious issues relating to people I'd suggest some therapy to help you with that.

I'm not sure what gave the impression I'm a huge loner socially, but I do have friends! I'm hardly the most popular guy out there, but I do have people I consider myself good friends with, though admittedly talking them to shit about this is not conceivable to me at the moment (same with family). I do act somewhat of course, I'm not just in my chair at the computer all day, but it is true that I'm not much of a risk-taker and try to avoid any dangerous situations or ones where confrontations of any sort may take place. I also tend not to like noisy/claustrophobic places. Though that's somewhat unrelated.

I'm not sure if I have serious issues relating to people or not. I have been to therapy once. Didn't really like it. Well, twice, if you count when I was ten years old.

It also seems as if you are trying to convince yourself that you're straight. Posting your musings on a gay website ought to tell you something.

I meant to respond to this earlier. Maybe I am subconsciously?, but I'm interested in exploring and I realize this is a gay website. I'm not *that* stupid. But I'm also not sure. I don't feel like defining anything yet even though I almost want to so I *know*. Uncertainty is annoying, but it's obviously a fact of life.

Anyway, not sure I feel comfortable sending PMs to anyone yet--well, actually it's anonymous, so I don't mind. But I'm also not sure what I'd say to anyone specific yet.

Thanks for reading. I can answer questions to clarify if needed.

[Seasoned]

Thanks for responding. I think you're on your way and that you'd like some self clarity. I hope you don't think I was implying you're stupid. I was merely stating the obvious in order to point out your exploration led you here. You'll find some people here hugely anti-label. I'm not one of them but I'd never force a label on anyone. It's up to all of us to self-identify anyway we choose to. Having a label helped(helps) me tremendously as I was married to a woman and have two children.

I wasn't implying you were friendless. I was curious because your post was all about self thought and talk with no mention of close interactions. I'm glad you have people in your life. My son is on the autism spectrum and has no friends so it's one of my concerns in general.

Again, I think it's great that you are trying to come to a better understanding of yourself. I bring up therapy often on this forum because I have used it as need for almost 35 years. It's saved me from anxiety and even dispair. My natural inclination is introvert, but I've learned to cope as a seemingly extrovert when I need to. Positive change is good and again I wish you well as you explore.

[mc7777]

If I may share my take and from my understanding of your situation. I echo Seasoned's answers. I think your natural human desires are pulling on you to figure out what it is you want and desire- or else you wouldn't be on here. I do feel, again from my understanding, that you are thinking way too much without taking any action. You could be cheating yourself at a wonderful exploration time in your life.

You have to name it to claim and life rewards action. If you pursue your desires in a virtuous manner, even when your wrong (off mark or needing to change), you can learn from it, and be right (obtained a desired intention, created success or personal happiness.)

Establish a baseline of personal values (what its important to you) and set goals- with really no timeline, but something to work towards. If I may suggest a goal of not personally devaluing yourself. Instead of I am an asshole, etc., say "I value making the right choices in life and I will start with allowing myself to give myself credit for who I am." You seem like a bright kid but a little too coy for your own good at the moment.

I was drawn to share my take on your post as I used to over think too much. It wasn't till I was challenged to establish my personal values and set goals that I made progress. It required me to get involved, get out there, and take action. With established values and goals I was able to measure progress and use that wondering mind of mine to adjust my strategy for personal happiness.

I spent 8 years thinking if I was gay. I could say I knew I was but wasn't sure. I picked it apart in every way shape or form. I can say I am very glad I took action. I am finally at peace and my mind is at much needed rest. Good luck!

[angstandsarcasm]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses, guys. I agree action and experience would be good. I am pretty shy. I was thinking more about the close relationships thing. Not an excuse or anything, but I would say that all my close relationships with friends (nothing more)--my best guy friends, that is--pretty much all left with them sort of drifting away (and since it's way too tiring too always be the one to initiate interactions, I just stopped too), and with one or two especially it felt like some of this was rooted in others' perceptions that we were more than just friends (which we weren't, not that anyone should care). With my family, I don't know. I just don't like being too personal or talking about myself, except on the internet I guess...

And to segue into a few more questions I'd look for advice on :P

1. How do you think I should go about maybe stop feeling this sense of annoyance at myself that happens when I feel an attraction to a guy, especially if this is someone who seems very much at ease, which is usually what attracts me? I try to turn this concrete through small, pretty much harmless methods--snapping rubber bands, digging my nails into my arm, and stuff...but it doesn't really help. God, this is stupid.

2. While I still need help meeting girls obviously, I wonder how doing stuff with a guy could even come about since I'd rather be discreet about it. Like...I don't want to do an online thing, so I'm just not sure how this would work. I don't have 100% accurate gaydar or anything, and even if I did, I don't know.

Part of my increased anxiety--even more than usual!--is that I'm going back to school in just a few days. Yeah.

[mc7777]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses, guys. I agree action and experience would be good. I am pretty shy. I was thinking more about the close relationships thing. Not an excuse or anything, but I would say that all my close relationships with friends (nothing more)--my best guy friends, that is--pretty much all left with them sort of drifting away (and since it's way too tiring too always be the one to initiate interactions, I just stopped too), and with one or two especially it felt like some of this was rooted in others' perceptions that we were more than just friends (which we weren't, not that anyone should care). With my family, I don't know. I just don't like being too personal or talking about myself, except on the internet I guess...

And to segue into a few more questions I'd look for advice on :P

1. How do you think I should go about maybe stop feeling this sense of annoyance at myself that happens when I feel an attraction to a guy, especially if this is someone who seems very much at ease, which is usually what attracts me? I try to turn this concrete through small, pretty much harmless methods--snapping rubber bands, digging my nails into my arm, and stuff...but it doesn't really help. God, this is stupid.

2. While I still need help meeting girls obviously, I wonder how doing stuff with a guy could even come about since I'd rather be discreet about it. Like...I don't want to do an online thing, so I'm just not sure how this would work. I don't have 100% accurate gaydar or anything, and even if I did, I don't know.

Part of my increased anxiety--even more than usual!--is that I'm going back to school in just a few days. Yeah.

I am glad that you may have found anything I mentioned insightful. In replying to your response, I would like to share my additional thoughts.

As far as your best guy friends drifting away, I say this is because of a couple different reasons. Friends and people come and go in life, that is just how it works. You can though maintain lasting fulfilling friendships. A wise older man I knew of once said, "if in the golden years in your life, you can count or speak of 3 good friends, then you did great!" This of course takes into account people coming and going within your life. But I think by assuming you being younger (still in school) this is normal more so with changing school seasons. But the big picture here is the natural pull of life and your sexuality is pulling you into place to address it. I started noticing me letting go of friends as I knew something "was up," with me personally. The friends that mattered seemed to last and stick around.

In regards to being personal with family that is tricky. Though I and others advocate building and being close with family, some of us, including me, just weren't tight with family. I told my friends first I was gay to build courage to tell my mother. Granted this carefully waged plan worked for me, part of me wishes I did it backward, telling my already suspecting/knowing mother first, and then my friends. I had ideal reactions from both friends and my mother.

On to your questions... I can't help but to be concerned with your self devaluing when you speak of personal annoyance with yourself when you find yourself attracted to a guy. As I said before, give yourself permission to feel and act! You need to take it easy on yourself as the process will beat you up enough! Its only when you value yourself enough to understand that it is ok to have feelings, its ok to desire another, and its ok to desire another man. You are worthy of these healthy fundamental human desires! Someone once told me, "you are human, start acting like it!" This denial of emotions creates the mental standoff that fuels your anxiety and your behaviors (snapping rubber bands, etc.) You may need additional help with this issue and I suggest therapy. Now don't go beating yourself up over seeking therapy you human you! You have a powerful thinking mind, but you need guidance and tools. You know you need more or you wouldn't be here asking. Its ok as we all do it!

On to wanting to meet guys but wanting to be discrete. This is the typical backward view and safe approach of a lot of closeted guys. Don't go thinking its unique to you, as its a very common misconception of closeted guys (I have seen many posts on this on the JUB forum..... wait for it... YES I was guilty of this also! ) In order to socialize with other gay guys it requires you to be at least somewhat out! And this will require action on your part. As I said before- you got to name it to claim it and life rewards action! You want to meets guys to see if you are further attracted to them (as I think you are) you need to tell yourself its ok and require more out of yourself to get out there (LGBT social organization,) and I have a feeling you meet a guy that is calm and smiles at you and wants to maybe meet again sometime, you will be grateful you took action, and not beating yourself up over not doing so.

But in your current state there are relationship pitfalls and other issues that you would need to be aware of. Again I suggest therapy. I also suggest reading "The Velvet Rage: Overcoming the Pain of Growing Up Gay in a Straight Man's Word," SECOND EDITION by: Alan Downs, PHD. This book is amazing and has helped me so much! I overcame my personal shame of being gay and know that I am worthy of a meaningful healthy relationship with another man.

I wish you the best of luck!!!!!

[neditesjamais]

Angst:

Just checking in to see how you're doing. Both Seasoned and mc7777 have given you some good feedback. But I wanted to let you know that there are others on here who take an interest in how you're doing. This site, and this particular forum, has helped many of us and we do like to repay that with whatever we can do to help others. So, keep asking.

btw, much of what you've said sounds very, very familiar. I would never suggest you do what I did (yeah, I have lots of regrets). But I did make it through.

ned

[angstandsarcasm]

Well, I never said I was/am gay. If I had to label, I'd say bi, but I'd prefer not to. Anyhow, I don't want to get distracted by this. But the gayness seems to be a main thrust of mc7777's posting. I don't need to read a book about some gay guy's struggle or whatever.

Anyway, I don't know. I arrived at school a week ago or so. Mostly, I've just been trying not to think about anything sexual whatsoever, which can be frustrating, but it's not like anyone will want to do anything with me, so as long as I don't think about it/submerge those thoughts, that's better for when I do think about that and don't take action in any manner. I don't know. I'm trying not to think about it. Still masturbating now and then, hopefully less from now on.

I'm not sure what to say. ajsdklajsldkjaskdljasd

[angstandsarcasm]

Kind of wish this place had a chat section. It would make for quicker, efficient posting maybe and I could clarify and talk more readily. Blah. me me me

edit: now I'm not even sure what I want anymore. What's even the problem? This isn't a problem. Or an issue. It's manufactured shit. I'm a fuck. Ugh.

[Kyanimal]

You're no more fucked up than anyone else on this planet. Realizing THAT can bring great solace and self acceptance. You ARE who YOU Are! Take that as a "Given"!

SO! ... What are YOU going to DO about that?

Keep wondering and wallowing in the same thing? OR ... Are you going to take a Direction, and work yourself out of the predicament you're currently finding yourself in?

Yeah! It takes some "guts" to actually MOVE on something. However, once you've made that decision, it's important that you follow through!

As it's been said, "Just DO It!" As scary as that prospect might seem, once you've made a decisive Move, you'll be surprised how easy it is, and will likely be kicking yourself for not doing it sooner!

I'd tell you my own story, about Guys and Girls, and a supreme need for Discretion, and self doubt, but I'm not sure this site has enough server space for that.

Let me just say that most all of my regrets come from what I DIDN'T Do!

RELAX! Enjoy your Life! Follow your Heart! It will seldom lead you wrong!

Most importantly though ... Seriously ... no matter what ...

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

[mc7777]

Well, I never said I was/am gay. If I had to label, I'd say bi, but I'd prefer not to. Anyhow, I don't want to get distracted by this. But the gayness seems to be a main thrust of mc7777's posting. I don't need to read a book about some gay guy's struggle or whatever.

Anyway, I don't know. I arrived at school a week ago or so. Mostly, I've just been trying not to think about anything sexual whatsoever, which can be frustrating, but it's not like anyone will want to do anything with me, so as long as I don't think about it/submerge those thoughts, that's better for when I do think about that and don't take action in any manner. I don't know. I'm trying not to think about it. Still masturbating now and then, hopefully less from now on.

I'm not sure what to say. ajsdklajsldkjaskdljasd

I decided to reply since you mentioned me directly, as I really didn't have much further to add outside my original comments, and the great feedback already shared by other members.

First off, allow me to apologize if you offended you by directly implicating your are 100% gay. My position was mistaken by two aspects, one the general assumption of being on this forum, additionally by my personal understanding of your comments, and dilemma. It is my personal opinion thought if you identify as bi, then you are not 100% straight. If an aspect of you desires a male (companionship, sexual attraction, sexual intercourse) then you face the same issues gay people face. Your desire for females is a societal norm and should have little to no issues for the most part.

Labels aren't such a bad thing! You have to "name it to claim it." How else could you claim anything good for the better of yourself? I label happiness as being with someone else in a loving relationship. There comes a point you have to personally define what it is you want (then you are able to take action.) I am not so sure having a possible flawed personal ideology of labels is benefiting you. You may want to examine your thought process and consider a new way of thinking. Your are obviously a strong deep thinker, and I mean that as a compliment. But when your thoughts get you caught on the horns of a dilemma, you can be paralyzed into immobility. You then are incapable of action. Lastly you discuss and discuss with yourself and end in disgust.

I wish you again the best of luck. I personally hope you make progress toward a personal resolution. Lastly I strongly suggest to see a counselor if you can. I think it would be great for a deep thinking guy like yourself to have someone to directly bounce your thoughts off. Rest assure you are not along and there are all kinds of unsure, contemplating/ questioning people out there.

-MC7777

P.S. Also the book I suggested isn't about a gay guy's struggle. Though Dr. Downs is gay, he shares information and stories of his gay (and bi) clients. He talks about overcoming the self defeating beliefs of personal shame of being who you are, again gay or bi, and how to become a self validated, authentic fulfilled person.

[subsonic]

I guess I'll say that I feel as if I'm one of the most indecisive/unsure people alive. This is hardly contained to the "sexuality" issue alone: I don't know what dinner I'll prefer, if I'm even hungry, if I should take a shower, my opinion about many things--that pertain to myself. For, I am definitely opinionated when it comes to morality, the arts, other people's situations (e.g. advice), but when it comes to myself, I'm am always struck by this. I hardly think I'm the only one going through this or whatever.

^^This is me! I ponder and wonder over every decision I have to make, from small things such as what to buy for dinner, which kind of chocolate I'm in the mood for and which movie I should watch, to bigger issues like what direction I want my education to take. But I found that what usually helps me in these situations, is to consult people that are near and dear to me and who I trust and respect.

Regarding all the other things, I don't think you should stress too much about it.. You're still quite young and developing. In my ears, it doesn't sound weird that you don't feel specially attracted to certain body parts etc., when you haven't been with someone.. It would be easier to feel what you really like, when you've gained some experience. Everything will come in time, don't you worry. Just stay open and live your life. Best of luck to you

[MrRochesterNY]

It's been a month now since angstandsarcasm returned to school, and we haven't heard from him in in that time. His story, his angst, and his dilemma grabbed my attention, because he is clearly an intellegent guy carrying some personal baggage. I'm sure I'm not the only one wanting to know how his life is going and whether the baggage load has lightened.

[angstandsarcasm]

Would be nice to talk to someone, but I'd prefer it through IM-ing of some sort since trading PMs is exhausting/frustrating for me. And to contradict what I just said--PM me about that first of course!

Not that anyone cares, but not much has changed. I just feel like just saying shit I've wanted to say, without being "judged," and with someone really listening (though this person will probably have to ask questions, lol). It'd probably be better to have a "real-life" person do this, but y'know...not now.

Thanks.

-A.

[Just_Believe18]

It sounds to me that you recognize a lot of your internalized problems, but you're dwelling on them for reasons of self-deprecation and sustaining the status quo. Take the initiative to change them. Modify your behavior. You know what's wrong and doesn't make you happy, so change it.

[angstandsarcasm]

No one willing to talk? I know I'm annoying, but still! Haha.

[Rolyo85]

Sorry, I would gladly exchange PMs, but I don't use any IM mediums that I'd be comfortable with sharing with strangers...

[mc7777]

I encourage you to take up Rolyo85 on his offer. He is a great guy and has contributed a lot of great points/ info/ ideas to the forum in general. Again I wish you personally the best of luck and hope for your personal desired progress of your situation.

[KaraBulut]

Would be nice to talk to someone, but I'd prefer it through IM-ing of some sort since trading PMs is exhausting/frustrating for me. And to contradict what I just said--PM me about that first of course!

You have the option of adding a IM or Skype address to your profile. It will add a contact icon under your name on your posts so that people can contact you directly.

Not that anyone cares, but not much has changed. I just feel like just saying shit I've wanted to say, without being "judged," and with someone really listening (though this person will probably have to ask questions, lol). It'd probably be better to have a "real-life" person do this, but y'know...not now.

Sometimes it helps to get things off your chest. Sometimes it helps to see the words typed out: "I like guys". Sometimes it's a matter of looking in the mirror and saying, "I'm gay". If you read through these forums, you'll see plenty of threads that have scenarios like these.

The situation that you're in is very much like that kid standing on the diving board looking at the water trying to dive in. Some kids take the jump. Some kids take their time. Almost all of the time, they do end up diving in and wondering what all the fuss was about.