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    The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    President Obama has indicated the US might not support Great Britain in what may be a looming second military engagement with Argentina over the ownership of the Falkland Islands, called the Malvinas by Argentina.

    This would be a repudiation of the background support, first surreptitious then open, President Reagan extended to the Thatcher government. This stance is particularly harmful to Britain because its compromised capacity to wage war down there is most likely the result of US undertakings to provide equipment, etc.

    Britain has almost always been at our side and frequently pulled our nuts out of the fire.

    We should now treat them thus? See:

    Obama throws U.K.

    I have already emailed the White House.
    Last edited by palbert; April 16th, 2012 at 08:56 AM.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Per your captioned press report President Obama's reply was:“Our position on this is that we are going to remain neutral… this is not something that we typically intervene in,” Obama replied to the question."

    This is a typically diplomatic response enabling President Obama to avoid being drawn into a highly contentious cross fire that would annoy Argentina, or the UK.

    The USA, and the UK are so closed knit on military, and intelligence matters that it would be unlikely that Argentina would attempt another invasion of the Falklands, preferring to pursue a diplomatic initiative in support of its position.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    ...[portion deleted]....The USA, and the UK are so closed knit on military, and intelligence matters that it would be unlikely that Argentina would attempt another invasion of the Falklands, preferring to pursue a diplomatic initiative in support of its position.
    That close knit arrangement did little to prevent the first invasion. I lived in Miami at the time of the first invasion: Argentinians feel very passionately about taking the islands, or at least its bounty. (I lost some South American clients because I supported Britain.)
    Last edited by palbert; April 16th, 2012 at 09:44 AM.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    of all the things I disagree with Obama on, I'm not sure this would even by in my top 10.

    it seems like a weird issue to me... the Falkland people want to stay under Britain and Britain wants the Falklands to stay under them, so let Argentina pout in the corner.
    The United Kingdom has since 1945 granted self determination to all its dominions, and overseas territories with the Falkland Islanders choosing to remain British which is in accordance with the United Nations charter which invites colonial powers to let their dependent territory citizens determine their status. The people of Gibraltar, along with other UK territories continue to vote in favour of remaining British citizens.

    The United Kingdom has invited Argentina to arbitrate its case before the International Court, in The Hague and has refused knowing that the Falkland Islanders will vote to remain British.

    It is worth noting that Argentina is the product of colonial settlement by Spaniards, with Italians and other Europeans featuring prominently.

    This article sets out the position with some delicacy:

    BBC News - Regions and territories: Falkland Islands

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    President Obama has indicated the US might not support Great Britain in what may be a looming second military engagement with Argentina over the ownership of the Falkland Islands, called the Malvinas by Argentina.

    This would be a repudiation of the background support, first surreptitious then open, President Reagan extended to the Thatcher government. This stance is particularly harmful to Britain because its compromised capacity to wage war down there is most likely the result of US undertakings to provide equipment, etc.

    Britain has almost always been at our side and frequently pulled our nuts out of the fire.

    We should now treat them thus? See:

    Obama throws U.K.

    I have already emailed the White House.
    Remember, Dinesh D'Souza has written a book entitled The Roots of Obama's Rage, analyzing
    Obama's thinking as highly influenced by his belief that much of the world are victims of colonialism, and his disapproval of Britain and the US as colonial powers. It would be consistent for him to see the people of the Falklands and Argentina as victims of Britains colonialism.
    Politically he is making a mistake. Most Americans will side with Britain and see that the desire of the people of the islands to remain with Britain is controlling.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    That close knit arrangement did little to prevent the first invasion. I lived in Miami at the time of the first invasion: Argentinians feel very passionately about taking the islands, or at least its bounty. (I lost some South American clients because I supported Britain.)
    Much has changed since then, and it is worth noting that Argentina no longer possesses the capability to mount a successful invasion with one special forces brigade of worth.

    The UK has a submarine on station in the South Atlantic, permanently with an advanced warship, Dauntless now en route to take up patrol duties around The Falklands. This apart from a permanent presence on the islands of an army battalion, and RAF fighters which can outmatch anything the Argentines possess.

    I believe that Argentina's diplomatic initiative will ultimately fail to achieve its purpose for there is little support in DC for Argentina's position which chooses to ignore the aspirations of the islanders to remain British.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Remember, Dinesh D'Souza has written a book entitled The Roots of Obama's Rage, analyzing
    Obama's thinking as highly influenced by his belief that much of the world are victims of colonialism, and his disapproval of Britain and the US as colonial powers. It would be consistent for him to see the people of the Falklands and Argentina as victims of Britains colonialism.
    Politically he is making a mistake. Most Americans will side with Britain and see that the desire of the people of the islands to remain with Britain is controlling.
    Were that the case then it would be rational for the indigenous Indian nations of the United States to invite the British settlers, and their descendants et al to return to the lands of their fathers.

    I rather believe that President Obama continues to learn from his daily experiences, and understands that it is entirely appropriate and logical for the indigenous Indian nations of Argentina to invite the descendants of the Spanish settlers to return to Spain.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    I do wish the Argentinians would stop grandstanding and posturing about this. We are where we are, and the local population have made their views clear. The Falklands War deepened the scars on both sides, but the conflict was the result of an Argentinian military dictator unilaterally invading the territory because he was looking for glory on the battlefield for populist and propaganda purposes.

    It's always interesting how GIANT countries can make SUCH big deals about TINY islands. Not just U.K./Argentina but in many places around the world. They're always conflated into something FAR more than just the possession of what is usually a completely insignifant little piece of land. I think kallipolis could give a better opinion than me about it since I understand there is still some bickering between Greece and Turkey over some of the islands in the Aegean Sea.

    My message would be to forget about it, accept current boundaries and territorial rights as they are, and concentrate on more important matters - like for example, oh I don't know, the health, education, welfare and prosperity of 30,000,000 or so Argentinians that live on the South American mainland.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    So let me get this right , he backsteps while British Soldiers die in his fucked up mess .

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
    So let me get this right , he backsteps while British Soldiers die in his fucked up mess .
    This is not the case.

    President Obama understands the sensitivity of this highly contentious issue and has chosen to avoid taking sides when declaring the neutrality of the United States. In private there is no support in DC for Argentina's position which disregards the aspirations of the islanders to remain British.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Argentina and England are making a big deal about the Malvinas (I stand with Argentina here) because of a recent discovery of oil. Not so insignificant now isn't it?
    Argentina continues to make a big deal of this issue because of the discovery of oil around the Falklands.

    The United Kingdom respects the clearly expressed wishes of the Falkland Islanders to remain British.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    I do wish the Argentinians would stop grandstanding and posturing about this. We are where we are, and the local population have made their views clear. The Falklands War deepened the scars on both sides, but the conflict was the result of an Argentinian military dictator unilaterally invading the territory because he was looking for glory on the battlefield for populist and propaganda purposes.

    It's always interesting how GIANT countries can make SUCH big deals about TINY islands. Not just U.K./Argentina but in many places around the world. They're always conflated into something FAR more than just the possession of what is usually a completely insignifant little piece of land. I think kallipolis could give a better opinion than me about it since I understand there is still some bickering between Greece and Turkey over some of the islands in the Aegean Sea.

    My message would be to forget about it, accept current boundaries and territorial rights as they are, and concentrate on more important matters - like for example, oh I don't know, the health, education, welfare and prosperity of 30,000,000 or so Argentinians that live on the South American mainland.
    Oil was discovered in the South Aegean in 1974 and there lies the Turkish interest.

    Those oil fields are now becoming a matter of deep interest for Greece if only to assist us out of our economic crisis.

    Fortunately Greece has much better relations with the current Turkish government, than with earlier Turkish administrations also noting that the Turkish armed forces are now being brought under strict civilian supervision if only to prevent further military coups.

    I foresee an amicable arrangement in sharing the South Aegean oil. Cyprus also has plans to pump oil laying off its coasts with Greek petroleum interests already involved with international oil exploration corporations.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    What's the big deal? I'm glad President Obama has taken the position of neutrality. It's none of our business! Britain has the matter under control, and both sides need to work out a detail that resolves the issue internally. Argentina isn't going to send troops again, so there is no threat of loss of life if the U.S. doesn't get involved.

    Obama's position honors Britain as an ally, and sends a signal to continue to improve trade relations with Argentina. In case all of you forgot, the President went to S. America this past week to try to improve relations and trade agreements with Latin America. You know, bring jobs, influence, and wealth to the United States?
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Why does the USA have to stick it's nose in every squabble in the world? If the UK and Argentina want to start a war over a few small islands in the middle of nowhere that's their business and not ours. Hooray for President Obama for not bullying our way into every saber-rattling event.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The United Kingdom has since 1945 granted self determination to all its dominions, and overseas territories with the Falkland Islanders choosing to remain British which is in accordance with the United Nations charter which invites colonial powers to let their dependent territory citizens determine their status. The people of Gibraltar, along with other UK territories continue to vote in favour of remaining British citizens.

    The United Kingdom has invited Argentina to arbitrate its case before the International Court, in The Hague and has refused knowing that the Falkland Islanders will vote to remain British.
    Exactly. What Obama should have said is that under the terms of the UN Charter and other international law, the matter is up to the inhabitants of the islands, and that's that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    It's always interesting how GIANT countries can make SUCH big deals about TINY islands. Not just U.K./Argentina but in many places around the world. They're always conflated into something FAR more than just the possession of what is usually a completely insignifant little piece of land.
    It's not the islands, any more than the issues on Alaska's northern slope are about the little construction pads on the surface. It's not even about the sheep, of which the Falklands have almost as many as Argentina has humans. It's about the oil, and about sea-bed minerals, which by some estimates may be worth enough to balance the U.S. budget for a few years -- or if the eager optimists are right, to pay off the debt.

    I'm sure that Argentina would like that wealth, but it's not up to them.

    Heck, with that kind of money, the Falklands could become an independent country!

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    Why does the USA have to stick it's nose in every squabble in the world? If the UK and Argentina want to start a war over a few small islands in the middle of nowhere that's their business and not ours. Hooray for President Obama for not bullying our way into every saber-rattling event.
    And a war is highly unlikely anyway. Argentina is pressing it's claim diplomatically, and military escalation is not in their plans at this time. One of the reasons is that the odds of winning for them are rather low.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    In 2002 I went to Iguacu Falls in Brazil/Argentina. At immigratinon on the Argentine side there was a huge banner over the road 'Las Malvinas son Argentine'. Their claim to the Falklands is hardcore.

    I am of the UK generation who went through the first war in 1982 and look back on it with despondency as all the jingoism and flagwaving got Margaret Thatcher reelected again in 1983. But it is sheer disbelief that this is stil rumbling on..

    We have had thirty years to sort this out. We've spent a fortune militarily on protecting them and warning Argentina off. So why havent we got around the table and sorted it out?

    I am not sure Argentina wants it. Its constitiion is so wired in getting it back they are pretty intractable. We have offered them dual sovereignty, tried to open commercial airlinks, etc but they were not interested. Ir was all everything or nothing.

    I have always thought if Argentina had met us halfway they could have got the Falklands twenty years ago. Its always better to charm to British then threaten them. We just dig our heels in.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    President Obama has indicated the US might not support Great Britain in what may be a looming second military engagement with Argentina over the ownership of the Falkland Islands, called the Malvinas by Argentina.

    This would be a repudiation of the background support, first surreptitious then open, President Reagan extended to the Thatcher government. This stance is particularly harmful to Britain because its compromised capacity to wage war down there is most likely the result of US undertakings to provide equipment, etc.

    Britain has almost always been at our side and frequently pulled our nuts out of the fire.

    We should now treat them thus?

    Are you talking about the same Ronald Reagan who was President of the United States? The one who repeatedly threw Thatcher-era Britain under the metaphorical bus?

    The one whose ambassador to the UN openly and unequivocally supported the Argentines? The one whose ambassador to the UN dined at the Argentine Embassy the day of the invasion of the Falklands, an act which the British ambassador to Washington at the time said was comparable in perfidy to if he had sat down to tea with the Iranians the day the Americans were taken hostage in Iran? The one whose UN ambassador, after having just voted for the UN Security Council resolution calling for an immediate cease-fire in the Falklands, immediately turned around and publicly announced she'd made an awful mistake, and that she had intended to abstain, causing outrage in Britain?

    The same Reagan who cause further outrage in Britain by not even consulting the British about the invasion of Grenada?

    The same Reagan who further outraged Thatcher by dismissing her feelings and disregarding her advice about his "Star Wars" initiative?

    The same Reagan who the British Ambassador noted, off the record, that if he stated what Mrs Thatcher really thought of him and his amateurish and clumsy foreign policies, it would cause permanent harm to Anglo-American relations?

    Or was there some different Reagan in your history books? One who actually supported Britain?

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Thank you all for excellent posts. Perhaps my anxiety is heightened by living in Miami at the time of the first conflict. Against that I pair that Britain has no aircraft carriers, which would be indispensable in such a conflict.

    And, if the Falklands, what next? Shackleton's islands of Georgia, South Orkney, South Sandwich? As various resources dim, I feel this are is ripe for picking.

    Also, and no matter what Obama's position, I have no doubt that Britain would get a great deal of support from the naval and intelligence communities.

    I would really like to hear the British (fellow JUBBER) perspective, and time should benefit their participation shortly.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    @ Little Dove. All concede that Reagan pursued a less than artful public foreign policy in this instance. Living in Miami at the time we early formed the impression that Reagan's fumbling display was intentional and a ruse to divert attention from the fact that America's entire intelligence and military establishments were supporting Britain. He was, as we say, trying to play both ends against the middle. I believe you will find the confrontation ended with the US cheek and jowl with Thatcher (what an image).

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Thank you all for excellent posts. Perhaps my anxiety is heightened by living in Miami at the time of the first conflict. Against that I pair that Britain has no aircraft carriers, which would be indispensable in such a conflict.

    And, if the Falklands, what next? Shackleton's islands of Georgia, South Orkney, South Sandwich? As various resources dim, I feel this are is ripe for picking.

    Also, and no matter what Obama's position, I have no doubt that Britain would get a great deal of support from the naval and intelligence communities.

    I would really like to hear the British (fellow JUBBER) perspective, and time should benefit their participation shortly.
    I trust that the contributions of a poor Greek, who spent 18 months compulsory service in the Hellenic Navy, can also be considered?

    RAF fighters are based in The Falklands sufficient to deter Argentine aggression and can be reinforced very easily, and rapidly so.

    Argentina's military forces have been starved of funds since the fall of the military dictatorship. Argentina is in no position to mount a successful invasion of The Falklands, with the Argentina Navy well aware that its warships, and transports can easily be sunk by a British Trafalgar class submarine now operating within striking distance of Argentina's principle naval base.

    The United Kingdom holds the strategic advantage with very modern technology weaponry at its disposal, a fact of life not lost on the Argentine military and political elite illustrating Argentina's diplomatic offensive as their only strategy.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    @ Little Dove. All concede that Reagan pursued a less than artful public foreign policy in this instance. Living in Miami at the time we early formed the impression that Reagan's fumbling display was intentional and a ruse to divert attention from the fact that America's entire intelligence and military establishments were supporting Britain. He was, as we say, trying to play both ends against the middle. I believe you will find the confrontation ended with the US cheek and jowl with Thatcher (what an image).
    The United States provided satellite sourced intelligence on Argentine military positions, and movements.

    The United Kingdom now sources from its own military satellites to provide the necessary intelligence.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Kallipolis, when I read of all of this strategic advantage I am remined of the "practically unsinkable" Titanic. Don't try to seal the deal too early.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Kallipolis, when I read of all of this strategic advantage I am remined of the "practically unsinkable" Titanic. Don't try to seal the deal too early.
    The 1982 invasion surprised the UK despite the fact they had a naval ice research vessel, Endeavour in the area listening to Argentine Naval traffic openly discussing their invasion of The Falklands. The UK military and UK Foreign Office did not believe that the Argentines could be so stupid. The Argentine Junta was stupid for the invasion was a suicidal act that brought down the military dictatorship.

    In 1982 The Falklands were defended by 90 marines who surrendered to the Argentine forces when their very limited ammunition stock was exhausted.

    I doubt that the UK will repeat their previous mistake knowing that contingency plans are already in hand to reinforce the military garrison of the Falklands should the Argentines change tactics.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Argentina is just being imperialist because there's money to be had.

    Militarily, the UK has enough in the Falklands to take out Argentina's ability to reach the islands with any force at all.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Wow... Just Wow. Talk about bias showing through and quite easily.

    Obama is staying neutral because we are Allies with BOTH countries. The UK is a big boy and can take of itself.

    To the comment about the UK losing troops fighting Al Qaeda I will offer this: As soon as Argentinians start detonating themselves in the tube we will help you fight the terrorist. I always wonder why Europe thinks fighting the terrorist is our sole quest. They were running away from suspicious packages DECADES before we were attacked at home. I digress.

    The next great growth economically on earth is going to come from the third world. As long as we solve the power deficit. Those rising economies are a gold mine of many different types so becoming an enemy or distancing ones country from South America is foolish at least and economic suicide at worst.

    We work in one another intelligence agencies... I mean honestly do you think we are not ALWAYS helping one another?
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
    So let me get this right , he backsteps while British Soldiers die in his fucked up mess .
    It was wrong for Bush to invade Iraq and it was wrong for Blair to send troops.

    42% of US Senate Democrats voted against invading Iraq.

    If House OR Senate democrats voted in solidarity against the war, we wouldn't have attacked Iraq, we wouldn't be in debt socially and economically and those soldiers would still be alive.

    As soon as we left Iraq the people began slaughtering each other after we were done slaughtering them.

    It was never a good idea to begin with and it damaged our credibility as a country.

    Now that a different conflict may be on the horizon, can you really blame the US President for not wanting to get involved?

    Now if the UK had sent people to Iraq or to the US to try and stop the war, then maybe things would be different.

    People don't see the true cost of war, just dollar signs for their corporate buddies.

    Let us not forget, Hillary Clinton would be president today if she didn't vote for the war. Same with John Kerry, who knows how Obama may have voted, but it was the worst decision for some democrats to ever make.


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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    We have HMS Illustrious actually. Just sayin.
    Isn't that just attack helicopters now? Not that a carrier of choppers wouldn't be able to take on Argentina's entire military, if they got aggressive.

    When's the new carrier supposed to be finished, BTW? It's a new class, IIRC.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    I would underestimate them. Non war plane producing countries get the old product or a reduced version so as to never give them the edge in a conflict. We never sell what is cutting edge. That would be foolish. We do however sell cutting edge to the UK. In fact we collude on many different designs using both our industry bases. I have no doubt the UK could take out Argentinian Air force from a comfortable chair somewhere in England.
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    We work in one another intelligence agencies... I mean honestly do you think we are not ALWAYS helping one another?
    I was told once by a former intelligence officer that allies are very careful to make sure that there's a balance of favors owed between them, so different agencies will owe favors while others are owed. That way, when one country needs some help, one agency or another can call on a counterpart for that owed favor. It seems reasonable to me, and I suppose favors can always be passed along in chains, too, so, for example, if India happened to have knowledge needed by Costa Rica, and they happened not to be talking to each other, the information could go from India to the UK, from the UK to the US, then from the US to Costa Rica.

    It fits with the way things work in Clancy's novels, too, and he seems to be darned reliable on getting that sort of thing right.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I was told once by a former intelligence officer that allies are very careful to make sure that there's a balance of favors owed between them, so different agencies will owe favors while others are owed. That way, when one country needs some help, one agency or another can call on a counterpart for that owed favor. It seems reasonable to me, and I suppose favors can always be passed along in chains, too, so, for example, if India happened to have knowledge needed by Costa Rica, and they happened not to be talking to each other, the information could go from India to the UK, from the UK to the US, then from the US to Costa Rica.

    It fits with the way things work in Clancy's novels, too, and he seems to be darned reliable on getting that sort of thing right.
    Yeah there is the political capital to be spent... but the world changed significantly with all western intelligence agencies supporting one another in a common fight. Have ya noticed there are not very many giant terror acts... always a small one man looney or a 'thwarted' large effort. That is everywhere western. I am not saying that they can't be duped but the cooperation is amazing.
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    JH, I wouldn't underestimate them. They aren't as crappy as you claim they are. Plus, Brazil is one of their biggest economic partners, so they wouldn't want to see a war even start. It's immaterial minimizing Argentina's military at this point. A war is highly unlikely. And lets not be biased. They've also done a lot of modernizing in recent times. But Argentina will be focused on working this out legally and diplomatically.
    Not for nothing GC but I have watched them fly. I know what they fly and their forces are inferior because a man can't make equipment exceed greater G's, a man cant make a missile strike a radar invisible target. I don't denigrate them just to be petty. It is reality. We and the UK are at least three generations of fighter ahead of their equipment.

    On your other point that there will be no conflict. I agree. Argentina would be foolish to do so when they could use international opinion to broker a lucrative deal. That is what this saber rattling is really about.
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I wouldn't underestimate Argentina in that regard... Argentina has some nice planes... I was at an air show in the country a few years ago (2002).

    I still don't think there will be a conflict. This will be worked out legally and diplomatically.
    Argentina's air force' newest planes are late '70s. Some have been modernized, primarily the transport and counter-insurgency planes.

    The UK's aircraft are at least 25 years more recent, with electronic suites better than that.

    So in an aerial battle, there would be an effective 30-year tech gap. And since UK pilots maintain flight time, and Argentine pilots have had to cut back, my bet is that a half dozen UK fighters could take out the Argentine air force without breaking a sweat while a carrier full of choppers swept in and neutralized any capability for reaching the Falklands.

    Not that the UK would do such a thing; they'd merely defend, which would have much the same result.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Not for nothing GC but I have watched them fly. I know what they fly and their forces are inferior because a man can't make equipment exceed greater G's, a man cant make a missile strike a radar invisible target. I don't denigrate them just to be petty. It is reality. We and the UK are at least three generations of fighter ahead of their equipment.

    On your other point that there will be no conflict. I agree. Argentina would be foolish to do so when they could use international opinion to broker a lucrative deal. That is what this saber rattling is really about.
    Maybe this time they're actually interested in a deal? The UK has been plenty generous in previous attempts, but Argentina just demands full sovereignty. One deal was for Argentina and the UK to split everything equally between the Falklands and the mainland, which is amazing since the UK doesn't have to budge at all -- those are their citizens on their own land, who chose to be part of the UK and not independent even. Argentina snubbed it.


    That makes this occur to me: maybe Obama saying "we are neutral" is a way of indicating the U.S. is willing to be a mediator/broker this time?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I don't think this underestimation is fair or appropriate, but I will just have to agree to disagree. It's also inappropriate in the present context. The British press has made some very unfair characterizations of Cristina Fernandez, which I find offensive. I stand with Argentina in that regard.

    Falkland Islands newspaper calls Cristina Fernández de Kirchner a bitch | World news | guardian.co.uk

    Highly offensive and highly disrespectful.
    have you ever read a foreign paper about the US leadership? it is natural for arguing peoples to insult one another. Look around here.
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I don't think this underestimation is fair or appropriate, but I will just have to agree to disagree. It's also inappropriate in the present context. The British press has made some very unfair characterizations of Cristina Fernandez, which I find offensive. I stand with Argentina in that regard.

    Falkland Islands newspaper calls Cristina Fernández de Kirchner a bitch | World news | guardian.co.uk

    Highly offensive and highly disrespectful.
    I think the most disgusting thing about that is whoever did it lacked the guts to be open about it, but was being sly in a juvenile fashion by making "bitch" the file name for the pic of Fernandez. That's lower than Limbaugh, who at least has the balls to use the word openly and be plainly responsible for it.

    Though Fernandez is crazy jumping on the British for "militarizing" the islands. When a nation with absolutely negligible claim to the place invades, and then refuses to relinquish the make-believe claim after being thoroughly trounced, of course the home country is going to step in and provide protection for their citizens!

    I know, it's Latin-American rooster talk, but Latin America needs to outgrow that -- it's leftover from dictator and military overlord days, which had better be behind us.

    Argentina would have a better position if they hadn't been pissing off their neighbors from the last decade or more, though. As it is, while Obama is making the 'right' noises, Argentina may have him as their only real friend in going for a deal. And she'd better get one; they need the money, and there may not be another chance, because the UK needs the oil.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Maybe this time they're actually interested in a deal? The UK has been plenty generous in previous attempts, but Argentina just demands full sovereignty. One deal was for Argentina and the UK to split everything equally between the Falklands and the mainland, which is amazing since the UK doesn't have to budge at all -- those are their citizens on their own land, who chose to be part of the UK and not independent even. Argentina snubbed it.


    That makes this occur to me: maybe Obama saying "we are neutral" is a way of indicating the U.S. is willing to be a mediator/broker this time?
    Possibly. It makes me think of Taiwan and China. We do not need to become big daddy to another group of misfortunate people who are not strong enough to throw off the greedy interest fo a bigger neighbor. Let the UK citizens in the Falklands and the Argentinians deal with their OWN issues. The UK has a dog in that fight. We do not.
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I think it's highly inappropriate, and I stand with my comrades in Argentina... I feel connected to the country and lived there for several years, and I understand how they feel about this subject.
    Inappropriate sure but uncommon in current news or discourse. Not even remotely. imagine if America got its nose out of joint every time someone hurled a insult.
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Possibly. It makes me think of Taiwan and China. We do not need to become big daddy to another group of misfortunate people who are not strong enough to throw off the greedy interest fo a bigger neighbor. Let the UK citizens in the Falklands and the Argentinians deal with their OWN issues. The UK has a dog in that fight. We do not.
    Except they haven't managed to do very well on their own.

    Were I Obama, and they wanted a referee/broker, I'd tell them they can have a referee -- literally. I'd send a team of three who would do nothing but sit at the talks and listen, and if tempers started to flare call time out. They wouldn't offer suggestions, they'd just listen, intervene to keep things civil, and keep them to it until agreement was reached.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The Penguin News? Thats hardly British. The Falkland Islands newspaper uploads a picture where one of their editors used a pejorative as the filename for the Argentine leaders portrait, and this amounts to the British press being offensive?

    If anything, it serves to show exactly how the Falkland Islanders think about Argentina and its intent to claim ownership of the islanders homeland. Over 150yrs has passed, the inhabitants are Falklanders, not Brits. So this is Falklander insult, and can they be blamed?? Really. They see Argentina as an aggressor.
    You know that is an interesting perspective. We have only been around a bit longer. I suppose we should go ahead and give it to the Indians.
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The Penguin News? Thats hardly British. The Falkland Islands newspaper uploads a picture where one of their editors used a pejorative as the filename for the Argentine leaders portrait, and this amounts to the British press being offensive?

    If anything, it serves to show exactly how the Falkland Islanders think about Argentina and its intent to claim ownership of the islanders homeland. Over 150yrs has passed, the inhabitants are Falklanders, not Brits. So this is Falklander insult, and can they be blamed?? Really. They see Argentina as an aggressor.
    Thanks for the clarity offered.

    I'd see the Argentines as aggressors, too, if I lived there. As it is, I see them as imperialists, wanting to extend their reach and impose their rules over a foreign people who don't want them.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I'm not buying it. It's the British that have refused to negotiate with her administration.

    Argentina Insists, Uk Resists Talks On Malvinas/falklands

    Fernandez didn't say anything particularly offensive to the people living there. She was addressing the British.
    Wow -- that article demonstrates why the islanders are pissed at her: she's attempting to engage in aggression via diplomacy.

    Of course the British aren't talking to her! At least they're being nice about it. From what that article reports, she should be chastized for being ignorant of international law, specifically the U.N. Charter, and told that imperialism is no longer in fashion.

    Seriously, what she's doing is as if Russia started demanding talks on reclaiming Alaska, and Obama refused to talk with them. She should be happy she's not being burned in effigy (though given the latitude, frozen in effigy might be more appropriate).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    The thread title reminds me of "are you still beating your wife?"

    If Obama sides with Argentina, he's fucked.
    If Obama sides with the UK, he's fucked.
    If Obama remains neutral, he's fucked.

    If I were he, I would choose the path that costs the least (neutrality) - which is what he is doing.

    No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I'm not buying it. It's the British that have refused to negotiate with her administration.

    Argentina Insists, Uk Resists Talks On Malvinas/falklands

    Fernandez didn't say anything particularly offensive to the people living there. She was addressing the British.

    And the reason they aren't saying anything is because of the oil discovery. It's not an insignificant piece of land.

    I guess I just bring what is closest to an Argentine perspective... even though I'm not Argentine. I just can relate to them quite well.

    Slightly off topic, but Argentina is expanding its interests in Africa and Asia...

    Argentina Discovers Africa

    That's an interesting website... it's on my list of bookmarks.
    Why should the British negotiate if there's nothing to negotiate over? The people of the Falklands have made their decision, and Argentina would do well to respect it.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Not buying it. She isn't the one that's being aggressive here. She's only speaking the truth.
    She's trying to force a nation to cede to her wishes, when they have chosen otherwise. The law means nothing to her. She should be careful, lest she piss off the United Nations.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Not buying it. She isn't the one that's being aggressive here. She's only speaking the truth.
    Trying to take away someone else's home from them is "speaking the truth"?!

    The Falklands belong to the people who live there. They don't want anything to do with Argentina. Their parents weren't Argentine, their grandparents weren't Argentine, their great-grandparents weren't Argentine. But this ambitious president wants to force them to be Argentines, so she can have their wealth.

    That's aggression. She knows she can't commit her aggression by Argentine military force, so she's angling to get the UK to use its military force to coerce the islanders into being Argentine.

    That's against every principle of respect for people. It's no different than if my neighbor had a spring I wanted, so I started a campaign to get the city council to claim the field it was in and hand it to me, so I could have guns behind me when I told his children they had to stay away.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    She's trying to force a nation to cede to her wishes, when they have chosen otherwise. The law means nothing to her. She should be careful, lest she piss off the United Nations.
    The UN would be impotent on this -- two nations who believe in stealing land from others sit on the Security Council.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    A few points.

    • There is no place called "Malvinas."
    • I actually like that Obama is staying out of it. It's nothing to him unless an ally makes a request for support. In a way this thread is like saying "Obama refuses to support American action on the decades long dispute between Liechtenstein and France over import duties on local cheeses." So? Not his business.
    • Finally, there is no way that Argentina would have a chance. You just can't invade a first-world permanent member of the Security Council. Britain would have stopped at nothing to win the last war; it had no choice by virtue of its position. Nothing in that equation has changed.
    Two journalists killed during live broadcasts by madman smothering them with pillows. Because remember, guns don't kill people....

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Fernandez is not the one being aggressive, and she is simply asking for dialogue. I think some are misinterpreting her intentions. I'm just not buying the idea that she somehow disrespected them. She's not forcing anyone to be Argentines.
    That's what she says she wants -- Argentine sovereignty over the Falklands.

    Maybe Brazil should start a diplomatic campaign to get Argentina to sit down and negotiate the sovereignty of those two provinces that stick up by Paraguay. Heck, start a campaign to negotiate the sovereignty of Uruguay, too!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Suggesting that someone else do what you think is fine for her to do is not a "slippery slope", it's showing what she's up to -- trying to steal the land of another country. Brazil annexing Uruguay is a perfect illustration of what she's after, because it would be making one country and people part of another by force.

    She wants the wealth, and she doesn't care if she tramples on people who don't want her to get it. If she keeps pressing the UK to "negotiate" something that isn't theirs to give or hers to take, the proper response would be a public snub, preferably referring to her as a rabid shark.

    (do sharks get rabies?)

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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