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  1. #51
    mitchymo
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Isn't that just attack helicopters now? Not that a carrier of choppers wouldn't be able to take on Argentina's entire military, if they got aggressive.

    When's the new carrier supposed to be finished, BTW? It's a new class, IIRC.
    Yes, quite right. That wasn't mentioned on the Royal Navy website lol

    I think HMS Queen Elizabeth is due in 2016 (although estimates vary from 2014-2020), and HMS Prince of Wales within two years of the Queen Elizabeth finishing. Both will be part of the Queen Elizabeth Class Supercarrier. It will carry up to 40 F-35 Lightning IIs and Chinook and Merlin Choppers. Certainly both going to be the biggest ever in the British Royal Navy.

  2. #52
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I don't think this underestimation is fair or appropriate, but I will just have to agree to disagree. It's also inappropriate in the present context. The British press has made some very unfair characterizations of Cristina Fernandez, which I find offensive. I stand with Argentina in that regard.

    Falkland Islands newspaper calls Cristina Fernández de Kirchner a bitch | World news | guardian.co.uk

    Highly offensive and highly disrespectful.
    I think the most disgusting thing about that is whoever did it lacked the guts to be open about it, but was being sly in a juvenile fashion by making "bitch" the file name for the pic of Fernandez. That's lower than Limbaugh, who at least has the balls to use the word openly and be plainly responsible for it.

    Though Fernandez is crazy jumping on the British for "militarizing" the islands. When a nation with absolutely negligible claim to the place invades, and then refuses to relinquish the make-believe claim after being thoroughly trounced, of course the home country is going to step in and provide protection for their citizens!

    I know, it's Latin-American rooster talk, but Latin America needs to outgrow that -- it's leftover from dictator and military overlord days, which had better be behind us.

    Argentina would have a better position if they hadn't been pissing off their neighbors from the last decade or more, though. As it is, while Obama is making the 'right' noises, Argentina may have him as their only real friend in going for a deal. And she'd better get one; they need the money, and there may not be another chance, because the UK needs the oil.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  3. #53
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Maybe this time they're actually interested in a deal? The UK has been plenty generous in previous attempts, but Argentina just demands full sovereignty. One deal was for Argentina and the UK to split everything equally between the Falklands and the mainland, which is amazing since the UK doesn't have to budge at all -- those are their citizens on their own land, who chose to be part of the UK and not independent even. Argentina snubbed it.


    That makes this occur to me: maybe Obama saying "we are neutral" is a way of indicating the U.S. is willing to be a mediator/broker this time?
    Possibly. It makes me think of Taiwan and China. We do not need to become big daddy to another group of misfortunate people who are not strong enough to throw off the greedy interest fo a bigger neighbor. Let the UK citizens in the Falklands and the Argentinians deal with their OWN issues. The UK has a dog in that fight. We do not.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  4. #54
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    have you ever read a foreign paper about the US leadership? it is natural for arguing peoples to insult one another. Look around here.
    I think it's highly inappropriate, and I stand with my comrades in Argentina... I feel connected to the country and lived there for several years, and I understand how they feel about this subject.

  5. #55
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Argentina would have a better position if they hadn't been pissing off their neighbors from the last decade or more, though. As it is, while Obama is making the 'right' noises, Argentina may have him as their only real friend in going for a deal. And she'd better get one; they need the money, and there may not be another chance, because the UK needs the oil.
    I think they have a good friend with Dilma Rousseff too... Argentina is doing fine economically... they aren't in much trouble. Though they need to start reigning in certain public expenses and start restructuring their trade (which that meeting with Obama is presumably about). Argentina has a great deal of its own oil btw, and are also the second top exporter of bio-fuels (alternate energies).

  6. #56
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I think it's highly inappropriate, and I stand with my comrades in Argentina... I feel connected to the country and lived there for several years, and I understand how they feel about this subject.
    Inappropriate sure but uncommon in current news or discourse. Not even remotely. imagine if America got its nose out of joint every time someone hurled a insult.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  7. #57
    mitchymo
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I don't think this underestimation is fair or appropriate, but I will just have to agree to disagree. It's also inappropriate in the present context. The British press has made some very unfair characterizations of Cristina Fernandez, which I find offensive. I stand with Argentina in that regard.

    Falkland Islands newspaper calls Cristina Fernández de Kirchner a bitch | World news | guardian.co.uk

    Highly offensive and highly disrespectful.

    The Penguin News? Thats hardly British. The Falkland Islands newspaper uploads a picture where one of their editors used a pejorative as the filename for the Argentine leaders portrait, and this amounts to the British press being offensive?

    If anything, it serves to show exactly how the Falkland Islanders think about Argentina and its intent to claim ownership of the islanders homeland. Over 150yrs has passed, the inhabitants are Falklanders, not Brits. So this is Falklander insult, and can they be blamed?? Really. They see Argentina as an aggressor.

  8. #58
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Possibly. It makes me think of Taiwan and China. We do not need to become big daddy to another group of misfortunate people who are not strong enough to throw off the greedy interest fo a bigger neighbor. Let the UK citizens in the Falklands and the Argentinians deal with their OWN issues. The UK has a dog in that fight. We do not.
    Except they haven't managed to do very well on their own.

    Were I Obama, and they wanted a referee/broker, I'd tell them they can have a referee -- literally. I'd send a team of three who would do nothing but sit at the talks and listen, and if tempers started to flare call time out. They wouldn't offer suggestions, they'd just listen, intervene to keep things civil, and keep them to it until agreement was reached.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #59
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    If anything, it serves to show exactly how the Falkland Islanders think about Argentina and its intent to claim ownership of the islanders homeland. Over 150yrs has passed, the inhabitants are Falklanders, not Brits. So this is Falklander insult, and can they be blamed?? Really. They see Argentina as an aggressor.
    So they are going to go after Fernandez who only recently took office through a legal election in Argentina? Some Argentines used to refer to the Falkland islands as the F--kland islands. I can see why now.

    Some will just say "oh it's nothing much"... "insults get hurled all the time"... well calling a female the "b" word is especially disgusting. And I will stick to my position on this one. Still that's not a reason to start any kind of conflict, and all this should be worked out diplomatically, as well as off shore oil claims.

  10. #60
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The Penguin News? Thats hardly British. The Falkland Islands newspaper uploads a picture where one of their editors used a pejorative as the filename for the Argentine leaders portrait, and this amounts to the British press being offensive?

    If anything, it serves to show exactly how the Falkland Islanders think about Argentina and its intent to claim ownership of the islanders homeland. Over 150yrs has passed, the inhabitants are Falklanders, not Brits. So this is Falklander insult, and can they be blamed?? Really. They see Argentina as an aggressor.
    You know that is an interesting perspective. We have only been around a bit longer. I suppose we should go ahead and give it to the Indians.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  11. #61
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The Penguin News? Thats hardly British. The Falkland Islands newspaper uploads a picture where one of their editors used a pejorative as the filename for the Argentine leaders portrait, and this amounts to the British press being offensive?

    If anything, it serves to show exactly how the Falkland Islanders think about Argentina and its intent to claim ownership of the islanders homeland. Over 150yrs has passed, the inhabitants are Falklanders, not Brits. So this is Falklander insult, and can they be blamed?? Really. They see Argentina as an aggressor.
    Thanks for the clarity offered.

    I'd see the Argentines as aggressors, too, if I lived there. As it is, I see them as imperialists, wanting to extend their reach and impose their rules over a foreign people who don't want them.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  12. #62
    mitchymo
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    So they are going to go after Fernandez who only recently took office through a legal election in Argentina? Some Argentines used to refer to the Falkland islands as the F--kland islands. I can see why now.

    Some will just say "oh it's nothing much"... "insults get hurled all the time"... well calling a female the "b" word is especially disgusting. And I will stick to my position on this one. Still that's not a reason to start any kind of conflict, and all this should be worked out diplomatically, as well as off shore oil claims.
    In all fairness, its her leadership that has ramped up the rhetoric and enflamed the people of the Falklands. Her attitude is offensive to them, causing fear for what should be their sovereignty. The fact they want to remain a BOT (lol, British Overseas Territory) is somewhat irrelevent really, to what is appropriate. If the islanders were encouraged by the Brits to claim independance, would the UN look favourably on Argentina if they tried to take the islands? I think not. This WILL pan out just through diplomacy, because the UK and Argentina getting into a conflict over land which neither have a right to possess, is just daft.

  13. #63
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    In all fairness, its her leadership that has ramped up the rhetoric and enflamed the people of the Falklands. Her attitude is offensive to them, causing fear for what should be their sovereignty. The fact they want to remain a BOT (lol, British Overseas Territory) is somewhat irrelevent really, to what is appropriate. If the islanders were encouraged by the Brits to claim independance, would the UN look favourably on Argentina if they tried to take the islands? I think not. This WILL pan out just through diplomacy, because the UK and Argentina getting into a conflict over land which neither have a right to possess, is just daft.
    I'm not buying it. It's the British that have refused to negotiate with her administration.

    Argentina Insists, Uk Resists Talks On Malvinas/falklands

    Fernandez didn't say anything particularly offensive to the people living there. She was addressing the British.

    And the reason they aren't saying anything is because of the oil discovery. It's not an insignificant piece of land.

    I guess I just bring what is closest to an Argentine perspective... even though I'm not Argentine. I just can relate to them quite well.

    Slightly off topic, but Argentina is expanding its interests in Africa and Asia...

    http://www.globalissues.org/news/2012/04/16/13362

    That's an interesting website... it's on my list of bookmarks.

  14. #64
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I'm not buying it. It's the British that have refused to negotiate with her administration.

    Argentina Insists, Uk Resists Talks On Malvinas/falklands

    Fernandez didn't say anything particularly offensive to the people living there. She was addressing the British.
    Wow -- that article demonstrates why the islanders are pissed at her: she's attempting to engage in aggression via diplomacy.

    Of course the British aren't talking to her! At least they're being nice about it. From what that article reports, she should be chastized for being ignorant of international law, specifically the U.N. Charter, and told that imperialism is no longer in fashion.

    Seriously, what she's doing is as if Russia started demanding talks on reclaiming Alaska, and Obama refused to talk with them. She should be happy she's not being burned in effigy (though given the latitude, frozen in effigy might be more appropriate).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  15. #65
    JUB Addict chrisrobin's Avatar
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    The thread title reminds me of "are you still beating your wife?"

    If Obama sides with Argentina, he's fucked.
    If Obama sides with the UK, he's fucked.
    If Obama remains neutral, he's fucked.

    If I were he, I would choose the path that costs the least (neutrality) - which is what he is doing.

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

  16. #66
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Wow -- that article demonstrates why the islanders are pissed at her: she's attempting to engage in aggression via diplomacy.
    Not buying it. She isn't the one that's being aggressive here. She's only speaking the truth.

  17. #67
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I'm not buying it. It's the British that have refused to negotiate with her administration.

    Argentina Insists, Uk Resists Talks On Malvinas/falklands

    Fernandez didn't say anything particularly offensive to the people living there. She was addressing the British.

    And the reason they aren't saying anything is because of the oil discovery. It's not an insignificant piece of land.

    I guess I just bring what is closest to an Argentine perspective... even though I'm not Argentine. I just can relate to them quite well.

    Slightly off topic, but Argentina is expanding its interests in Africa and Asia...

    Argentina Discovers Africa

    That's an interesting website... it's on my list of bookmarks.
    Why should the British negotiate if there's nothing to negotiate over? The people of the Falklands have made their decision, and Argentina would do well to respect it.

  18. #68
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Not buying it. She isn't the one that's being aggressive here. She's only speaking the truth.
    She's trying to force a nation to cede to her wishes, when they have chosen otherwise. The law means nothing to her. She should be careful, lest she piss off the United Nations.

  19. #69
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    The thread title reminds me of "are you still beating your wife?"

    If Obama sides with Argentina, he's fucked.
    If Obama sides with the UK, he's fucked.
    If Obama remains neutral, he's fucked.

    If I were he, I would choose the path that costs the least (neutrality) - which is what he is doing.
    Yeah, it's probably the best option for him to take in this regard. Asides from that, I wonder how the meeting will go between him and Fernandez. Obama lauded his trade deal with Colombia, and I'm sure he'll want to work one out with Argentina.

  20. #70
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Not buying it. She isn't the one that's being aggressive here. She's only speaking the truth.
    Trying to take away someone else's home from them is "speaking the truth"?!

    The Falklands belong to the people who live there. They don't want anything to do with Argentina. Their parents weren't Argentine, their grandparents weren't Argentine, their great-grandparents weren't Argentine. But this ambitious president wants to force them to be Argentines, so she can have their wealth.

    That's aggression. She knows she can't commit her aggression by Argentine military force, so she's angling to get the UK to use its military force to coerce the islanders into being Argentine.

    That's against every principle of respect for people. It's no different than if my neighbor had a spring I wanted, so I started a campaign to get the city council to claim the field it was in and hand it to me, so I could have guns behind me when I told his children they had to stay away.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #71
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    She's trying to force a nation to cede to her wishes, when they have chosen otherwise. The law means nothing to her. She should be careful, lest she piss off the United Nations.
    The UN would be impotent on this -- two nations who believe in stealing land from others sit on the Security Council.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #72
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Fernandez is not the one being aggressive, and she is simply asking for dialogue. I think some are misinterpreting her intentions. I'm just not buying the idea that she somehow disrespected them. She's not forcing anyone to be Argentines.

  23. #73
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    A few points.

    • There is no place called "Malvinas."
    • I actually like that Obama is staying out of it. It's nothing to him unless an ally makes a request for support. In a way this thread is like saying "Obama refuses to support American action on the decades long dispute between Liechtenstein and France over import duties on local cheeses." So? Not his business.
    • Finally, there is no way that Argentina would have a chance. You just can't invade a first-world permanent member of the Security Council. Britain would have stopped at nothing to win the last war; it had no choice by virtue of its position. Nothing in that equation has changed.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  24. #74
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Fernandez is not the one being aggressive, and she is simply asking for dialogue. I think some are misinterpreting her intentions. I'm just not buying the idea that she somehow disrespected them. She's not forcing anyone to be Argentines.
    That's what she says she wants -- Argentine sovereignty over the Falklands.

    Maybe Brazil should start a diplomatic campaign to get Argentina to sit down and negotiate the sovereignty of those two provinces that stick up by Paraguay. Heck, start a campaign to negotiate the sovereignty of Uruguay, too!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #75
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's what she says she wants -- Argentine sovereignty over the Falklands.

    Maybe Brazil should start a diplomatic campaign to get Argentina to sit down and negotiate the sovereignty of those two provinces that stick up by Paraguay. Heck, start a campaign to negotiate the sovereignty of Uruguay, too!
    That's a slippery slope argument. She isn't arguing for those, and relations between Argentina and Brazil are not in bad shape right now. In fact they have a pretty big trade partnership. And Uruguay is an independent country, and the Fernandez met met to work out a trade deal.

    Argentina Uruguay to solve trade differances - Export.BY

    This area is one of my strong points when it comes to international politics. I know the details about what is going on between the countries.

    http://www.buenosairesherald.com/art...entina-uruguay

    Last year they restored train service in a move to improve bilateral ties. Fernandez isn't the hostile person people are making her out to be. She's fully willing to talk to other countries.

  26. #76
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Suggesting that someone else do what you think is fine for her to do is not a "slippery slope", it's showing what she's up to -- trying to steal the land of another country. Brazil annexing Uruguay is a perfect illustration of what she's after, because it would be making one country and people part of another by force.

    She wants the wealth, and she doesn't care if she tramples on people who don't want her to get it. If she keeps pressing the UK to "negotiate" something that isn't theirs to give or hers to take, the proper response would be a public snub, preferably referring to her as a rabid shark.

    (do sharks get rabies?)

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  27. #77
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    She's not trying to steal the land of another country. She doesn't care if she tramples on people to get wealth? Um, Argentina has its own extensive oil reserves, including plenty off shore. I just think the bigger picture is not being seen here.

  28. #78
    mitchymo
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Fernandez is not the one being aggressive, and she is simply asking for dialogue. I think some are misinterpreting her intentions. I'm just not buying the idea that she somehow disrespected them. She's not forcing anyone to be Argentines.
    She IS however forcing the Brits into a dialogue that cannot achieve what she desires. Her governments position cares not for the islands natives. They're claim to the islands is in competition with the British claim, regardless that neither claim is more important than the rights of the Kelpers (Falklanders). If Argentina wants to argue over Argentine occupation prior to British invasion in 1833, we may as well just give the islands to the French, who were the first to hold de facto control of the islands in 17something. The Spanish and Americans have also contolled the islands at some point or another. The British have held the islands the most (5 times) and for the longest time. And since only the Falkland invasion by the Argentines in 1982 interrupted a 150+yr British occupation, i think the UK claim is the strongest. But not even that matters, since the UK has given the Kelpers the power to decide for themselves, Argentina refuse to accept their rights, claiming they are not aboriginals. Quite stupid and pointless remarks. I guess by this token that everybody better start moving back to East Africa where we all come from.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Argentina and England are making a big deal about the Malvinas (I stand with Argentina here) because of a recent discovery of oil. Not so insignificant now isn't it?
    So are you saying war for oil is ok?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    Why does the USA have to stick it's nose in every squabble in the world? If the UK and Argentina want to start a war over a few small islands in the middle of nowhere that's their business and not ours. Hooray for President Obama for not bullying our way into every saber-rattling event.
    Largely because the artificial constructions we build to take the mantle of Rome from us (League of Nations, United Nations) don't work.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    So are you saying war for oil is ok?
    Um that's awesome. How did you come to that conclusion based on what I said there?

    I said there is a reason why both want the area. I never said anything justifying any war. In fact, I said several times that conflict must be avoided through diplomatic means.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Whether there's oil there is irrelevant. Argentina is signatory to the UN Charter. The Charter asserts self-determination for people. The people of the Falklands have made their determination: they want to be British citizens. That's the only thing that matters. If they voted to be part of New Zealand, it wouldn't change a thing: they don't want to be Argentines. By claiming sovereignty, Fernandez is saying the wishes of the people don't matter, that they should be Argentines anyway. By trying to get the Brits to negotiate, she's acting as though the islanders are just property that comes along with the islands.

    Her whipping up of nationalist sentiment is standard operating procedure for getting a nation to go along with aggression. That aggression may be done through war, or it may be done with diplomacy -- it's the same continuum. And Britain should continue to ignore her requests to be complicit in her aggression.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The UN would be impotent on this -- two nations who believe in stealing land from others sit on the Security Council.
    Not quite right. The people of the islands have chosen the british. Any attempt to take them, either by force or subterfuge, is a violation of international law.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Um that's awesome. How did you come to that conclusion based on what I said there?

    I said there is a reason why both want the area. I never said anything justifying any war. In fact, I said several times that conflict must be avoided through diplomatic means.
    But your clear support for Argentina implies that you believe their reasons are valid which you also say is about the oil. They want to subjugate a people who do not want them over oil. So is that ok in your viewpoint?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  35. #85
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    But your clear support for Argentina implies that you believe their reasons are valid which you also say is about the oil. They want to subjugate a people who do not want them over oil. So is that ok in your viewpoint?
    A great deal of the oil is actually off the coast of the islands. I think that Argentina just wants to explore it. I never validated anything about subjugating anyone. That's just putting words in my mouth. Argentina is a democratic country and I don't see them subjugating anyone.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    A great deal of the oil is actually off the coast of the islands. I think that Argentina just wants to explore it....[portion deleted]... Argentina is a democratic country and I don't see them subjugating anyone.
    What good is JUST exploring for oil. If they find oil you posit they will turn it over to ... whom?

    They certainly attempted subjugation back in the '80's. Weren't they proclaiming democracy back then?

    Basically, the Argentine infrastructure is compliments of Great Britain. Argentina should be happy it has that ... and churrasco.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    A great deal of the oil is actually off the coast of the islands. I think that Argentina just wants to explore it. I never validated anything about subjugating anyone. That's just putting words in my mouth. Argentina is a democratic country and I don't see them subjugating anyone.
    Argentina is not making a friendly suggestion that Britain hold a referendum to see if the residents of one of its islands would like to separate. It is making a territorial claim. What has argentina's position got to do with democracy for the Falkland Islanders?

    And why would Britain allow any other country to explore British oil.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Not quite right. The people of the islands have chosen the british. Any attempt to take them, either by force or subterfuge, is a violation of international law.
    And the UN doesn't care shit for international law unless the Security Council manages to vote to do something besides talk -- but those two nations who are just fine with violations of the right of self-determination won't.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Argentina is not making a friendly suggestion that Britain hold a referendum to see if the residents of one of its islands would like to separate. It is making a territorial claim. What has argentina's position got to do with democracy for the Falkland Islanders?

    And why would Britain allow any other country to explore British oil.
    Exactly right: she said she wants to discuss "sovereignty". That means she doesn't agree that it's up to the islanders who the islands belong to. That's anti-democracy, anti-freedom, anti-decency.

    "Asking for dialogue" wouldn't include insisting on negotiating a settled matter, it would start by saying Argentina has some disagreement about the ownership of the resources on the sea floor, and wants to reach agreement.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  40. #90
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    What good is JUST exploring for oil. If they find oil you posit they will turn it over to ... whom?

    They certainly attempted subjugation back in the '80's. Weren't they proclaiming democracy back then?

    Basically, the Argentine infrastructure is compliments of Great Britain. Argentina should be happy it has that ... and churrasco.
    Show some respect and don't minimize a country like that.

    And proclaiming democracy? Argentina was a military dictatorship back then under the direction of Videla, Viola, then Galtieri (who launched the attack because the junta was falling apart). They weren't proclaiming democracy. The Argentine dictatorship, which murdered thousands of its own people, was desperate because of the economic situation in Argentina. Argentina at present doesn't have that issue... they still have some economic issues (some inflation and balance of payments problems), but are on a relative strong footing.

    The late Nestor Kirchner did well for Argentina... blasting international lending organizations, stabilizing the economy and sending Argentina growing strongly. His wife has carried that on, and she is a strong leftist... one that also has supported equality in her own country.

  41. #91
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post

    And why would Britain allow any other country to explore British oil.
    A great deal of the oil is actually in a zone that's disputed... one that's more in international waters. It's not British oil.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And proclaiming democracy? Argentina was a military dictatorship back then under the direction of Videla, Viola, then Galtieri (who launched the attack because the junta was falling apart). They weren't proclaiming democracy. The Argentine dictatorship, which murdered thousands of its own people, was desperate because of the economic situation in Argentina. Argentina at present doesn't have that issue... they still have some economic issues (some inflation and balance of payments problems), but are on a relative strong footing.

    The late Nestor Kirchner did well for Argentina... blasting international lending organizations, stabilizing the economy and sending Argentina growing strongly. His wife has carried that on, and she is a strong leftist... one that also has supported equality in her own country.
    If their economy is okay, why is she trying to steal someone else's land?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  43. #93
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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If their economy is okay, why is she trying to steal someone else's land?
    Sorry, but that's just rhetoric and I will not entertain such rhetoric. Have a nice day. Nobody is trying to steal anything.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    A great deal of the oil is actually in a zone that's disputed... one that's more in international waters. It's not British oil.
    That's a simple enough issue to deal with: draw the geographical equivalent of an equidistant curve, dividing the Argentine coast from the Falklands. Argentina gets what's on one side, the Falklands get what's on the other.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Sorry, but that's just rhetoric and I will not entertain such rhetoric. Have a nice day. Nobody is trying to steal anything.
    I just defined her rhetoric. She doesn't believe the Falklands belong to the people of the Falklands -- that's what disputing the sovereignty means. She wants to take their land from them contrary to their will -- that's what all her rabble-rousing with the issue is about.

    She didn't say she wants to talk about the oil, she didn't say she wants to negotiate working together to explore resources, she challenged the sovereignty of the people of the Falklands. That means she doesn't think they have any business deciding their own fate (which they've already done). She announced this also by her actions in addressing Great Britain instead of the people whose home the Falklands are -- that dismisses them as having any role at all, reducing them to mere pieces on the game table for two nations to argue over.

    She needs to shut her mouth about sovereignty. The Falklands belong to the people of the Falklands. Knowing that Argentina was a threat, they chose to have Great Britain remain as their protector. She's acting as though GB is their owner, and she wants the title.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    She's an egomaniac. She just nationalized a foreign company:

    Argentina seizes gas firm owned by Repsol - Yahoo! News Canada

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    She's an egomaniac. She just nationalized a foreign company:

    Argentina seizes gas firm owned by Repsol - Yahoo! News Canada
    It would serve her right if they had explosives built into all the facilities, and they gave her three days to turn herself in an return the stolen goods but she refused, they just blew it all up.

    I would. She's now earned that epithet: she's not just a bitch, she's a thieving bitch.

    In support of Spain, the EU should seize enough Argentine assets in banks to pay for the stolen company.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It would serve her right if they had explosives built into all the facilities, and they gave her three days to turn herself in an return the stolen goods but she refused, they just blew it all up.

    I would. She's now earned that epithet: she's not just a bitch, she's a thieving bitch.

    In support of Spain, the EU should seize enough Argentine assets in banks to pay for the stolen company.
    I don't think she realizes yet what she's stepped in. The EU is not going to take it lightly.

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Wow... Just Wow. Talk about bias showing through and quite easily.

    Obama is staying neutral because we are Allies with BOTH countries. The UK is a big boy and can take of itself.

    To the comment about the UK losing troops fighting Al Qaeda I will offer this: As soon as Argentinians start detonating themselves in the tube we will help you fight the terrorist. I always wonder why Europe thinks fighting the terrorist is our sole quest. They were running away from suspicious packages DECADES before we were attacked at home. I digress.

    The next great growth economically on earth is going to come from the third world. As long as we solve the power deficit. Those rising economies are a gold mine of many different types so becoming an enemy or distancing ones country from South America is foolish at least and economic suicide at worst.

    We work in one another intelligence agencies... I mean honestly do you think we are not ALWAYS helping one another?
    Buddy and yes that was sarcastic , for 30 read them 30yrs we were being bombed by the terrorists in Ireland .
    By that i mean proper , powerfull bombs , ones large enough to murder 17Paratroopers ,on the same day that they murdered
    Lord Mountbatten of Burma , a genuine 2nd war-hero ,who they blew up and killed in a supposedly neutral Country .

    Oh and please dont forget 9/11 when on that murderous day our National Leader , dropped or cancelled everything to
    fly to The States , so that he could stand by the side by side with the President and visually show support ,not send
    a fucking Telegram.

    As for needing your herioc coffee-making skills , when the IRA started bombing London , it lasted a few days along with
    the Muslim Atrocities , wanna know why Mr American Hero we have the best soldiers in the World , Special Air Service
    Special boat service ,The ROYAL Marines The Paras the Ghurkas (heard of them) ,yep you have your Seals , based on the
    Special boat service , and your Rangers and pathfinders .

    Who are all brave men and women .
    As for your covert-op,s TEN fucking years to find and execute Osama-bin-Laden , who was fucking living in a compound ,km`s
    from one of your allies main training acadamies . (HMM) and thanks two sugars in mine .

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    Re: The Falklands: An Obama Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
    Buddy and yes that was sarcastic , for 30 read them 30yrs we were being bombed by the terrorists in Ireland .
    By that i mean proper , powerfull bombs , ones large enough to murder 17Paratroopers ,on the same day that they murdered
    Lord Mountbatten of Burma , a genuine 2nd war-hero ,who they blew up and killed in a supposedly neutral Country .

    Oh and please dont forget 9/11 when on that murderous day our National Leader , dropped or cancelled everything to
    fly to The States , so that he could stand by the side by side with the President and visually show support ,not send
    a fucking Telegram.

    As for needing your herioc coffee-making skills , when the IRA started bombing London , it lasted a few days along with
    the Muslim Atrocities , wanna know why Mr American Hero we have the best soldiers in the World , Special Air Service
    Special boat service ,The ROYAL Marines The Paras the Ghurkas (heard of them) ,yep you have your Seals , based on the
    Special boat service , and your Rangers and pathfinders .

    Who are all brave men and women .
    As for your covert-op,s TEN fucking years to find and execute Osama-bin-Laden , who was fucking living in a compound ,km`s
    from one of your allies main training acadamies . (HMM) and thanks two sugars in mine .
    In english please.

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