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  1. #1
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    Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Feminists are legitimately concerned that, if abortion were banned, the government would be exercising control over a very intimate and important part of a woman's life. But when a woman forces a man to be responsible for a child only she wants, and when the state child-support apparatus takes a third or more of his income and jails him if he comes up short, isn't the government exercising control over his life?
    30 Years After Roe v. Wade, How About Choice for Men?


    This is really true!!

  2. #2
    I'm now a grandfather! JUB Moderator Seasoned's Avatar
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    There is a choice for men. If a guy chooses vaginal sex the assumption needs to be that he may be paying child support for 18 years. It makes sense to be that there's shared consequences. Let's face it if it were men who got pregnant not many of us would be here.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."--Dr. Seuss

  3. #3
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    I think the OP makes a valid point.

    I understand a woman's right to choose and agree that it is necessary. However, I believe that one parent's insistence in keeping a largely unwanted child should alleviate some* legal responsibility for the unwilling other parent.

    Flame away.

    -d-
    *A flexible amount; I'm willing to entertain options
    Members: [insert appropriate/relevant wise saying or deep thought here]
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  4. #4
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by KrisHawkXXX View Post
    ... Says the ovary-less, gay man.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  5. #5
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Perhaps the interest of the State is the interest of the offspring, period. The child does not get to choose whether to be born to a rich or poor family, to united or divide parents, to educated or simple minds, etc.

    If a man and a woman choose to engage in sex, protected or other, then there is a reasonable expectation that it could result in pregnancy, which in turn could reasonably result in a live birth.

    The fact that contraceptive may be used in a modern society should not result in the assumption that fertilization will be blocked unquestionably.

    It is unlikely, even in the event of the signing of a "hold-harmless" contract by the woman, that the State will ever abandon the interest of the child, and will preserve the paternity liability. This is all the more true with the wage disparity between the sexes, plus the trending back to more conservatism since the onset of feminism.

    Whereas the State does actually work in this policy to "protect the family," it does work toward placing instruments of law in effect to increase the probabilities that the child will receive benefit of more than one parent financially.

    Membership indeed has responsibilities, and they are shared. Coitus with the opposite sex is not carefree, wasn't during the "sexual revolution," and is likely not to be in our lifetimes.
    Last edited by Hard-up1; April 16th, 2012 at 04:12 AM.

  6. #6

    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Well, the guy's choice was whether or not he should fuck the girl as Seasoned said. If you're willing to fuck, you better help some part with the responsibilities. Raising a child with little to no child support...that must be difficult. Otherwise just get a fleshlight or something. And if that's expensive, invest in birth control.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saybrooke View Post
    I was at the gym once, and this woman was on the elliptical next to me, making motorcycle noises.

  7. #7
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    On the assumption that this OP is serious: if you have children, intended or not, you should foot the bill. What right have you to make me subsidize its upbringing.

  8. #8

    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Nope. The men should have to pay child support. It's not like these women went to a sperm bank to have children. The reason these men don't want to pay child support is because they feel it's the woman's fault they got pregnant. It's all cool to bust a nut in a woman's vagina, but dear God if she would become pregnant, she's on her own. These so call men think it's okay to knock every hot girl the get with, but when children are in the picture, these cowards make a run for it. I 100% agree men who willingly have unprotected sex with a woman and leave them to be responsible for paying child support for THEIR child. The only way a man shouldn't be responsible if a woman either pays him to get her pregnant or goes to a spern bank to become pregnant.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    You know who probably has some interesting thoughts on this matter? Bulge.

    Lex

  10. #10
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    If they don't pay the rest of us will have to pick up the bill.

  11. #11
    tombastep
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    If you don't want a child, practice safe sex. Simple as that. Otherwise it is on you.

  12. #12

    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    I think a lot of the people commenting didn't fully read the article. There was no suggestion that a guy can carelessly fuck who he wants and just walk away leaving the woman to bring up the child alone. If a guy is responsible and uses the only feasible option of contraception (a condom) and it fails then he is doomed to 18 yrs of financial responsbility if the woman wants to have the child. This seems fair, it was his decision to fuck and he has to accept the consequences (though he took all responsbile measures i.e. safe sex). However if a woman forgets her contraceptive pill and gets pregnant, she gets the choice of being able to walk away from all parental responsbility. Is it fair that the man gets absolutely no choice and is burdened with parental and financial responsbility for a child that was never planned because his condom broke when a woman can just have an abortion and be free?

    I'm not saying I agree but its an interesting viewpoint.

  13. #13
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    The question of choice, in the context of Roe v Wade, is the choice over your body... not over the consequences of your actions. A woman has the right to choose whether or not to remain pregnant; a man's choice of what to do with his body ends when the sperm leaves it and enters the woman.

    Both parties are responsible for preventing pregnancy, but only the woman can choose whether or not to carry that pregnancy to term; and both parties are legally responsible for any children resulting from that union, just as both parties are responsible for any STDs that are transmitted during that union. If the man wants the child, and the woman does not want to carry it, her choice trumps because it's her body. But that weighted authority over the pregnancy does not relieve the man of his responsibility if the child is carried to term. Half that DNA is his, and in all fairness he has to help support it if it lives.

    Children, like STDs, are the risk you take when you have sex; even the best contraceptives are only 99.9% effective, so you're spinning the wheel and taking your chances whenever you stick sperm and eggs anywhere near each-other. If one wants to guarantee one's self free of the burden of children or STDs, one can only abstain from heterosexual genital coitus; and if that's not reasonable, each partner must take whatever preventive measures they reasonably can; but if there's an accident, it belongs to you both.

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  14. #14
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    maybe wen men is eva be a men they manage tie own shoes befor shit in um haaaa

    ans females get move on ya woozys

    there go giv humans of twat lands sumthang ta do fa 21 st century

    yawn

    his ans hers condoms on spacestation how cute
    % aww ans little picture ofs spacestation print it %
    @ dat sweet @
    no forgat pack their milk bottles cause
    ! AYE AYE! !

    ha

  15. #15
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by KrisHawkXXX View Post
    See I could see that working if a) the guy was raped, or b) the woman intentionally lied/tricked him into getting her pregnant....

    Otherwise, its about taking responsibility for your actions. Plain and simple, and you're responsibilities shouldn't become the responsibilities of other taxpayers.

  16. #16
    loki81
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Musik2400 View Post
    See I could see that working if a) the guy was raped, or b) the woman intentionally lied/tricked him into getting her pregnant.
    I've heard of cases like that where the guy was still forced to pay... I've also heard of cases where the woman lied about the paternity and the non-biological father was still forced to pay.

    obviously, as a gay man this has no impact on my life... but it seems unfair that it's 100% the female's decision to have the baby or not. I feel like there should be an "out," wherein a guy can go on record (publicly, where his future kid can read it someday) giving up all claims to a fetus and absolving himself of any financial obligation of the female wants to carry it to term.

  17. #17
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    It is grotesquely unfair. Unless a man has consented to paternity of a child that is not biologically his, by way of adoption, he should bear no liability. And he should be entitled to compensation froma lying or deceptive mother if paternity is revealed after the fact.

    Also, responsible men can control their fertility autonomously as well as women. If a man does not want to pass on a genetic disorder and a woman agrees to this and hey mutually agree to terminate an affected fetus, she cannot be permitted to retroactively overrule his consent by changing her mind. At the very least he should bear no obligations to such a child, but I'm not sure why the mother should have custody either given her gross capacity for betrayal and deception.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  18. #18
    mitchymo
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    In some cultures, contraception is not available. Are you to say to people that they must abstain from sex if they don't want a child? The contraception issue, is simply irrelevant, it has no bearing on the situation we are discussing, since that point has passed. Yes it is foolish not to use contraception, but lets not forget that it takes two to tango here. If a guy doesn't want a child, but one has accidentally come along, through foolish behaviour or through deception or irresponsibility, whatever, he should not be forced into paying for that child. It is easy to say, 'the taxpayer shouldn't have to foot the bill', but its not the guys fault that you would be, it'd be the woman who chooses to have the child, despite it being undesired by one half of its parents.

    Its fine for a woman, she has to carry the child, and so if she doen't want it, she can't be forced to carry it, even though it may deny a father from having his child. Its only fair, imo, that men have some equated rights, so that if he doesn't want a child, he has a get out clause too. Any burden on the taxpayer is the fault of a woman who chooses to bring up a child single handed, when first, she had as much the same responsibility to use contraception, and secondly has the option to abort.

    Men do not have the option to rectify any mistakes, it is unfair to force them to pay for those mistakes.

    The only fathers that should have to pay child support, are those who wanted the children to begin with, so that in the event of a separation, they would still have an obligation to financially support their kids. Men need to have the chance to accept or refuse having offspring, and since they cannot actually have any say, because in the end it comes down to a woman, there needs to be an equaliser in order to keep it fair.

    Just my thoughts.

  19. #19
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    My reply to that would be if you don't want a child, don't put your penis in a woman. You dint even need birth control for that strategy to work. That should cover it for most cases. I do think men need better defined rights for the extremes and the unusual situations.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  20. #20
    tombastep
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Any burden on the taxpayer is the fault of a woman who chooses to bring up a child single handed, when first, she had as much the same responsibility to use contraception, and secondly has the option to abort.
    I'm not going to really hold a woman at 'fault', because I'm sure these decisions aren't easy to make. And I can't help but imagine that there are cases where some men refuse to use condoms and then when a women gets pregnant, refuse to take responsibility for the child.

    I agree there needs be be more of an equal decision on some of these cases, but in general I think the 2 people responsible for making the child should be the ones taking care of him/her. Life isn't fair, sometimes you have to own up to 'mistakes'.

  21. #21
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    If a man is unwilling to pay child support when he is able to, there must be other issues too. We seem to hear about men paying child support yet having very little access to the child he is help raising financially. Too often, the conflicting interests of the biological parents get in the way of actual care for the child. If one party is unwilling to give access yet demand maintenance from the child's other parent, this imbalance also will affect the child's upbringing, and ultimately how he/she views his parents to come. It is demoralising to see humans at their worst using their children as pawns and bargaining chips.


  22. #22
    THE FLIRT JUB Moderator ronboy's Avatar
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Kris, I read the article, and I have to say, it didn't change my mind.

    Anytime one person agrees to sex with another (regardless of sexual orientation), there are certain risks and pitfalls that are associated with that. If it is straight sex, STDs and pregnancy are a real danger. In gay sex, STDs are still there. I see others making the argument about condoms not being there, and how some cultures don't allow their usage.

    Call me old fashioned, but I think that each person has control over their sexual destinies. It's easy for me to preach "self control" when I am not the one in the situation, but it's also a conscious choice. I can choose to fornicate with someone, or choose not to. I can choose to use a condom, or choose not to. Granted, there are situations of sexual acts of violence, where there is no choice on one partner's behalf. In those cases, nobody should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. But I do believe in the concept of "manning up." If you take the risk to have sex and the result is pregnancy, then it is your responsibility to step up and support the child financially, even if you are not ready to commit to it emotionally. If I were straight, I would be even pickier than I am as a gay man, with who I'd have sex with.....

    Thanks, my friend, for bringing this subject up. You made me think tonight...


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  23. #23
    Once Again Given Flesh. MoufOfKhaos's Avatar
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    I laughed.

    Of course a man should pay child support if he fathers a child. He was willing to gamble.

    You don't get to take back your bet in a real poker game if you legitimately lose.
    "As anarchism rears its face,

    They are answered by an iron fist..."

  24. #24
    mitchymo
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    If one woman chooses to have a child, then gives it up for adoption, but one woman has the child but keeps it, and in both circumstances, the father doesn't want a child, how is it any way fair, that a man is forced to pay for a child he didn't want ONLY if a woman chooses to keep it? Not only is a man fathering a child that he didn't want in the first place, but now, based on another persons decision, has to pay for its care. You can argue the 'shouldn't have had sex then' argument, but that doesn't have a bearing on the circumstances as they are.

    If you can give away your children at no cost, then one parent should have the right not to be involved AT NO COST (provided that was the position prior to the birth).

  25. #25
    Once Again Given Flesh. MoufOfKhaos's Avatar
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    If you can give away your children at no cost, then one parent should have the right not to be involved AT NO COST (provided that was the position prior to the birth).
    You can't always give away your child at no cost, nor should there be carte blanche for a man to help with procreation without sharing responsibility for that action. If you can't care for a child don't have it - that hatchet swings both ways at both parties at all times. It's sad that people seem to think child support is "free money"; it's equally sad when some people use it as such, and they, just like deadbeat sperm donors(we'll not call them fathers, because if they were child support would be "dad helping to raise his seed"), should be punished.

    If that one woman decides to have a child on her own... that's an entirely different story, done in a totally different way. I'm just talking about guys that wanna get laid and end up fathering a kid and don't want to be responsible.
    "As anarchism rears its face,

    They are answered by an iron fist..."

  26. #26
    mitchymo
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoufOfKhaos View Post

    I'm just talking about guys that wanna get laid and end up fathering a kid and don't want to be responsible.
    How does such a guys position, bear any influence on a womans decision to keep the baby? Surely, such a guys decision would more likely have influence over a womans decision to abort or have the baby adopted.

    All that is being asked of by the group in the article, is that there is an equaliser in place, so that men who don't want to raise a child, have an option NOT to do so. Since a man cannot have any influence in an abortion, as its a womans choice, there must be something else put in place, so that guys can relinquish all responsibility, instead of having his hands tied by a woman who chooses to bring up a child regardless of his desires to not want paternal responsibility.

    A woman who doesn't want a child can opt for abortion, and a guy can't do a thing about it.

    Its a tad unfair for women to have all the rights. Men deserve some too.

  27. #27
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    "It's not fair! Wah-wah-wah!" When men can carry the child, too, then it will be fair.

    As it is, you stick your dick in a cooch and you're taking a chance on creating a child. Your let your sperm out, you no longer have rights over it; the woman hasn't let the egg out, she still has rights over it, whether to have it removed or carry it to term.

    People keep harping on women having a "get out of jail free" card with abortion. But I can assure you that in all but the most extraordinarily depraved cases, the decision to have an abortion is not only incredibly difficult, but it will haunt you for the rest of your life. It is not something women do lightly, so just put that out of your mind. Neither is giving a child up for adoption. No man has any right to say what a woman should or shouldn't do, because he doesn't have that choice to make, he doesn't get to carry the child, he doesn't have to go through the pain and hormonal changes and the post-partum depression, and so he doesn't get to abort the child or give the child up.

    The man only has to ejaculate, and so he only gets to take responsibility for his half of the conception... and if that conception goes through, he should help bring that child up. That is as fair as life gets.

    * Question the Dominant Paradigm *

  28. #28
    Once Again Given Flesh. MoufOfKhaos's Avatar
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    How does such a guys position, bear any influence on a womans decision to keep the baby? Surely, such a guys decision would more likely have influence over a womans decision to abort or have the baby adopted.
    He helped to cause that baby to happen, did he not? It can't all fall on the woman because it may or may not have been a fling, and if she doesn't keep the child, whether by abortion or adoption, then what are we arguing about here?

    Why do men need to be equal in the aftermath when they can choose not to father the child in the first place? If you don't want to be responsible for raising a life, be responsible enough not to create one. Yes, I realize that i've evidently said "don't gamble" twice, but it really is that simple - use a condom, take precautions, don't bang random girls you can't trust.

    And women DON'T have all the rights - if they did there wouldn't have to be laws ensuring that men would take responsibility for their actions; men are paying for the mistakes of other who decided what you're suggesting - that they wanted nothing to do with it at all, emotionally AND financially. My feelings for kids having dads aside(I would rather have one loving parent than one that felt he was being lead by a leash to see me, personally), the other is a shitty way to be.
    "As anarchism rears its face,

    They are answered by an iron fist..."

  29. #29
    mitchymo
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swellegant View Post
    "It's not fair! Wah-wah-wah!" When men can carry the child, too, then it will be fair.

    As it is, you stick your dick in a cooch and you're taking a chance on creating a child. Your let your sperm out, you no longer have rights over it; the woman hasn't let the egg out, she still has rights over it, whether to have it removed or carry it to term.

    People keep harping on women having a "get out of jail free" card with abortion. But I can assure you that in all but the most extraordinarily depraved cases, the decision to have an abortion is not only incredibly difficult, but it will haunt you for the rest of your life. It is not something women do lightly, so just put that out of your mind. Neither is giving a child up for adoption. No man has any right to say what a woman should or shouldn't do, because he doesn't have that choice to make, he doesn't get to carry the child, he doesn't have to go through the pain and hormonal changes and the post-partum depression, and so he doesn't get to abort the child or give the child up.

    The man only has to ejaculate, and so he only gets to take responsibility for his half of the conception... and if that conception goes through, he should help bring that child up. That is as fair as life gets.
    Safe sex is not guarenteed. Women are capable of using contraception too. Women have a greater understanding of their ovulating. Its not just a mans action that leads to pregnancy. A woman has as much an option to safeguard against unwanted pregnancy as men do. How the point is reached is not the important part, its what happens after. Simply because its correct that men shouldn't determine what a woman does with her body, doesn't mean that its right that men should be forced to be involved. If a woman wants a child, and a guy doesn't, he should have the legal means to reject all rights to the child, and the responsibilities that go along.

  30. #30
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    i think we should remove all support from a lot of groups, i consider myself liberal but we have to teach responsibility not dependency.

    im also pro life, i think women using "its my body" as an excuse is too convenient.

    yes we do have personal liberty but i think men are suffering as a whole because of their diminished role in their childrens lives which you could argue is made worse by allowing less-than-rational precedences currently in place.

    if you chose to have a child, your having a child. grow up and take some responsibility. its not up to the state to raise your child.


  31. #31
    mitchymo
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoufOfKhaos View Post
    He helped to cause that baby to happen, did he not? It can't all fall on the woman because it may or may not have been a fling, and if she doesn't keep the child, whether by abortion or adoption, then what are we arguing about here?

    Why do men need to be equal in the aftermath when they can choose not to father the child in the first place? If you don't want to be responsible for raising a life, be responsible enough not to create one. Yes, I realize that i've evidently said "don't gamble" twice, but it really is that simple - use a condom, take precautions, don't bang random girls you can't trust.

    And women DON'T have all the rights - if they did there wouldn't have to be laws ensuring that men would take responsibility for their actions; men are paying for the mistakes of other who decided what you're suggesting - that they wanted nothing to do with it at all, emotionally AND financially. My feelings for kids having dads aside, the other is a shitty way to be.
    Women can also choose not to mother a baby in the beginning, its not just a mans problem. You can say, put on a condom, but you can say take a 'morning after' pill too. A woman has the right to deny a guy from being a father if she doesn't want to be a mother, its not fair to then have a woman demand financial support for having a child that a guy didn't want. Simple as that.

  32. #32
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    The article does lead me to think of several anomalies affecting parental rights and responsibilities.

    As long as one parent is responsible enough to care for the child, the other parent is obligated to a lifetime of support. If both parents are simultaneously unfit parents, or even if they just don't want to be parents, they can give the child up for adoption and they'll have no further obligations toward it as son as it is a ward of the state.

    That's is convenient for some couples who may not be ready for parenthood, but not for situations where only one parent sees it that way. Too bad; they're trapped. The parent who wants to make a go of it has a veto over the adoption and an automatic right to a lifetime of support.

    Finally, the mother can abort as a matter of convenience during the pregnancy but never the father. If the man woman aborted at 4 months because she decided motherhood didn't suit her lifestyle, the man would be powerless to prevent it. If the woman delivered the baby and then abandoned it to the father he'd also be stuck. There is no consideration made in society or the law to protect his interests. He ha no choice but to make the right decision for his future at the time of conception. The mother can dither and dawdle and hold all the cards over the next several months. It's unfair that we do nothing to balance the situation.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by ronboy View Post
    Kris, I read the article, and I have to say, it didn't change my mind.

    Anytime one person agrees to sex with another (regardless of sexual orientation), there are certain risks and pitfalls that are associated with that. If it is straight sex, STDs and pregnancy are a real danger. In gay sex, STDs are still there. I see others making the argument about condoms not being there, and how some cultures don't allow their usage.

    Call me old fashioned, but I think that each person has control over their sexual destinies. It's easy for me to preach "self control" when I am not the one in the situation, but it's also a conscious choice. I can choose to fornicate with someone, or choose not to. I can choose to use a condom, or choose not to. Granted, there are situations of sexual acts of violence, where there is no choice on one partner's behalf. In those cases, nobody should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. But I do believe in the concept of "manning up." If you take the risk to have sex and the result is pregnancy, then it is your responsibility to step up and support the child financially, even if you are not ready to commit to it emotionally. If I were straight, I would be even pickier than I am as a gay man, with who I'd have sex with.....

    Thanks, my friend, for bringing this subject up. You made me think tonight...
    yes men should pay but that doesnt mean women should have the right to take away a mans child. its half his, and i would never even consider sex with a woman whom i thought would have an abortion.


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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The article does lead me to think of several anomalies affecting parental rights and responsibilities.

    As long as one parent is responsible enough to care for the child, the other parent is obligated to a lifetime of support. If both parents are simultaneously unfit parents, or even if they just don't want to be parents, they can give the child up for adoption and they'll have no further obligations toward it as son as it is a ward of the state.

    That's is convenient for some couples who may not be ready for parenthood, but not for situations where only one parent sees it that way. Too bad; they're trapped. The parent who wants to make a go of it has a veto over the adoption and an automatic right to a lifetime of support.

    Finally, the mother can abort as a matter of convenience during the pregnancy but never the father. If the man woman aborted at 4 months because she decided motherhood didn't suit her lifestyle, the man would be powerless to prevent it. If the woman delivered the baby and then abandoned it to the father he'd also be stuck. There is no consideration made in society or the law to protect his interests. He ha no choice but to make the right decision for his future at the time of conception. The mother can dither and dawdle and hold all the cards over the next several months. It's unfair that we do nothing to balance the situation.
    quoted for truth. and men are suffering because of their diminished role in their children's lives as a result. if a boy doesnt have a father do you really expect him to be better off without?


  35. #35
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    So let me get this straight: because a woman has a right to choose to not have the child, the man has the right to choose to not support the child. He can choose to be responsible or not for an actual live person whom he had an integral part in creating. Since he doesn't have the right to stop it from happening after it's gotten started, he shouldn't have any responsibility for it if it goes through. You only have responsibility for your actions if you wish to?

    That's not how life works.

    I know that the child support laws in this nation are skewed and sometimes bizarre; I know that men sometimes get "trapped" by women who've assured them that they're on the pill and it's OK to have unprotected sex (that's why my parents got married, after all). But these are pretty small compared to the number of men who have agreed to support children they've fathered and then don't.

    But look... the act of childbearing is unfair in and of itself: only a woman has to carry it. The man's part of the act of creation is a few minutes, the woman's part is nine months and then some. There is absolutely no way of equalizing that imbalance; and therefore there is no way of equalizing the roles when it comes to choice of remaining pregnant and choice of supporting a child you caused to happen. The woman will always have the greater degree of choice because she bears the greater workload in creation; while both parties are equally responsible for conception, only the woman can be responsible for gestating the result of that conception. She therefore has the greater choice.

    But having less choice in gestation does not relieve the man of responsibility for his half of the conception.

    * Question the Dominant Paradigm *

  36. #36
    JUB Addict Taz's Avatar
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    I am SO glad I'm gay lol.

    My friends have talked to me about their pregnancy scares before. I wouldn't want to deal with that.

    Mind you when the time comes that I want kids I'll probably feel differently

  37. #37
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    The item that is complete crap is Alimony. A man should pay for what he brings into this world. But why should he pay to maintain the lifestyle of an unfaithful twat?

    Meh.

    Society can not afford to pay for all of the children that the women would choose to keep with no means. The solution is to charge them a fine for neglect.
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  38. #38
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    I actually had a discussion about this with a feminist friend of mine. I told her that it should be possible if the guy doesn't want the child yet the woman wants it for the man to get out of paying child support...

  39. #39
    mitchymo
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swellegant View Post

    But having less choice in gestation does not relieve the man of responsibility for his half of the conception.
    That is the problem though. It SHOULD relieve him, so that he doesn't have to pay for a mistake, which if a woman makes that mistake also, she isn't powerless to take action to rectify it, even if it goes against the guys wishes. Guys have no option to rectify their mistake. Stupidly having unprotected sex is not justification for making people pay for something they don't want. If a woman wants a child which was not planned, a guy should have the legal right of disassociation if he doesn't want it. Its completely different if a guy walks out on children which he happily had, but then chooses to neglect later on. Those guys have no right not to continue paying for the childs upbringing.

  40. #40
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    I have read a few comments, and I must say, I think a large majority of you guys are missing the point.

    OPs intention was this:

    Abortion is a complex issue and must be thought of from all angles.

    What if the mom wants the baby and the dad doesn't?
    What if the dad wants the baby and the mom doesn't?
    What if neither want the baby?

    In the second scenario, it is the most common, because the male has ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE as to whether or not the baby will be born. In all pro abortion laws, they fail to acknowledge that there may be an emotional attachment for the father once he finds out that he is a future father. Why should the woman be the sole decision maker in this scenario?

    Feminists have been claiming that it's their body and they should be able to choose what happens with it. To which, anti-abortionists usually reply, don't have sex. To which, they reply, it's our right to have sex with whomever we please. Why can't this same argument be used for the man? The man should be able to have sex with whomever he pleases. And if contraception doesn't work, as many feminists use in their argument, why does the male have to be legally obligated to support something he didn't want in the first place whereas the woman, if she so pleases, has the choice to not?

    I am playing devils advocate here, as I will probably never have to worry about this in my lifetime. But they are completely legitimate questions to ask.

    I hope what I wrote made sense. I am sort of falling asleep while typing.

  41. #41
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    I'll admit I thought I'd be getting hellfire and brimstone for my post; glad to see there are likeminded JUBbers out there.

    Further to Swellegant's post re the emotional issues around abortion, I agree fully - it must be an incredibly difficult decision and one which has a lot of second-guessing attached to it. I'd like to suggest that this is true for the father as well.

    I'm not sure complete absolution for the father is a good idea - I think it probably is easier for a guy to insist on an abortion than it is for a woman to even think about it, so saying that these are options (and of course they are) does not make it as emotionally easy as buying a loaf of bread, even though physically it probably is.

    I would suggest that a significantly diminished financial role for the father should exist - not an even 50-50 split (or whatever the current ratio is; no idea how it is determined) if the father is suggesting ending the pregnancy and the mother insists on carrying the child to term. However, because if you watch enough Springer/Mathis/Cheaters you realise there are these guys who have 10 illegitimate children running around with 10 different mothers, the ratio is shifted the other way for each additional child to prevent this sort of thing from happening and prevent abuse the system.

    It's basically like a 1-use-only get out of jail half-free card. By the time you hit illegitimate kid #2 that you don't want, you get a ton of bricks dropped on you financially and are legally obliged to support BOTH children equally along with the support from their mothers. I would also attach a court order to the payment so it comes off the guy's salary automatically before he gets paid. The first accidental pregnancy is an accident; every subsequent one is simply neglectful, I reckon.

    Interesting thread.

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  42. #42
    TheFallenAsexual
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Misogyny: It's not just for straights anymore.

  43. #43
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by KrisHawkXXX View Post

    Obviously you are joking. At least I hope you are.
    In his autumn, before the winter, comes man's last mad surge of youth

  44. #44
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Glad to see life being reduced to a financial burden. Society is surely improving.
    Please do not apologize for your opinion.

  45. #45
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    ^I think you'd find that if people ran their lives like successful businesses were run, we'd be in a lot less mess than we are.

    -d-
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  46. #46
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Because formula, huggies, food is expensive as shit that's why. A depressive single mother cannot do it by herself. She needs the help of the idiot that refuses to be a good father figure.
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  47. #47

    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    No matter what misogynist conservatives and Men's Rights goons tell you, there isn't a conspiracy of women looking to get knocked up so that they can have a dedicated income source for 18 years. Getting pregnant for a woman, especially if there isn't a pre-existing legal arrangement like marriage or common law marriage, is one of the riskiest situations she can find herself in when it comes to long-term financial stability.

    Contraception does fail. Women who have no intention of being mothers find themselves pregnant. And they didn't get that way by themselves.

  48. #48
    mitchymo
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asenath View Post
    No matter what misogynist conservatives and Men's Rights goons tell you, there isn't a conspiracy of women looking to get knocked up so that they can have a dedicated income source for 18 years. Getting pregnant for a woman, especially if there isn't a pre-existing legal arrangement like marriage or common law marriage, is one of the riskiest situations she can find herself in when it comes to long-term financial stability.

    Contraception does fail. Women who have no intention of being mothers find themselves pregnant. And they didn't get that way by themselves.
    This is not a great point to make. Women have even more reason to exercise caution when engaging in sex. Its as much her responsibility to ensure contraception is being used, by both her and him. She has a better knowledge of her 'cycle'. Then, she has an option to terminate, or failing that, have the child adopted. A women has a lot more choice when a mistake does happen, a guy does not. There is no offence in trying to seek a fairer position for men. Pregnancy takes two, true. Only one currently has any rights. Thats not fair.

  49. #49
    StarCrasher
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    I can't believe some of the posts I'm reading.

    The man does have a choice. He can cover with a wrapper before he uses that zapper.

  50. #50
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    Re: Why should men pay child support if they choose not to?

    Quote Originally Posted by StarCrasher View Post
    I can't believe some of the posts I'm reading.

    The man does have a choice. He can cover with a wrapper before he uses that zapper.
    The woman has no choice, of course.

    She couldn't possibly even contemplate using female condoms, combined or single compound contraceptive pills, vaginal rings, intrauterine devices, slow-release implants or patches, diaphragms, or of course the Morning After Pill.

    Fact is, even in the face of all this, if Accidents Happen - and they do - there is still the option to abort. Should one party refuse to consider that option while the other party is willing to do so, I'm not sure the other party should be (entirely) liable.

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