Is there a correlation between your political stance and how out you are?

[loki81]

I support gay marriage, civil liberties, universal healthcare, and haven't voted for a Republican for national office that I can remember... so by JUB's judgement, I'm a pretty hardcore conservative.

not sure how I'd define my "out" status. I generally just don't care about it... which is to say, I don't care if people know I'm gay and I don't care enough that I feel like I have to go out of my way to mention it to them unless I have a particular reason to (any more so than straight people go out of their way to tell people how heterosexual they are)

my cousin actually yelled at me over the holidays for never coming out. I never thought I had to. I live my life, and anyone who wants to be involved with it is more than welcome... when I mention offhand to my parents about going out on dates (if I've got a good restaurant or bar to recommend) and they don't ask followup questions about the date, that's them choosing not to be involved.

[palbert]

Kulindahr I thought you were a defender of science and the use of proper terms? If so, you wouldn't be suggesting that there is a correlation between political stance and how out you are.

Sorry to disappoint, but Kuli's governing force is to be a contrarian. That way he dodges all labels and can endorse conflicting positions in different threads. His position will be the most "logically pure'" (provided you stay in the North Woods).

[TX-Beau]

Straight people are telling me how straight they are all the fucking time for no fuckng "reason" whatsoever - I don't mind straight people, so long as they don't force me to witness their shame.

[Rolyo85]

Sorry to disappoint, but Kuli's governing force is to be a contrarian. That way he dodges all labels and can endorse conflicting positions in different threads. His position will be the most "logically pure'" (provided you stay in the North Woods).

He happens to be correct though, and he did defend the claim. It is naive to think there is no correlation. Of course, one has to be mentally challenged to think said correlation would be "being conservative makes you closeted", but rather "circumstances of environment, family and the like, which would force you to be closeted, could be the same that would make you embrace conservative values". And I give this as an example, not an actual statement.

And to me, it's still telling which people refused to participate.

[TX-Beau]

Being "conservative" makes you closeted because if the "conservatives" knew about your faggot ass you'd be kicked out of the car.

[palbert]

He happens to be correct though, and he did defend the claim. It is naive to think there is no correlation. Of course, one has to be mentally challenged to think said correlation would be "being conservative makes you closeted", but rather "circumstances of environment, family and the like, which would force you to be closeted, could be the same that would make you embrace conservative values". And I give this as an example, not an actual statement.

And to me, it's still telling which people refused to participate.

I rest my case.

A pure Ellsworth Toohey.

[Rolyo85]

I rest my case.

A pure Ellsworth Toohey.

Offer reasoning, if you disagree, instead of referring to names I don't know

[palbert]

Offer reasoning, if you disagree, instead of referring to names I don't know

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountainhead

[Rolyo85]

Ok, now I'm informed. Still see no link between what I said and this guy. Again - offer reasoning instead of (literally) name-calling.

[xbuzzerx]

It's pretty common sense.

If you endorse and live in a community of people who primarily endorse the concept that being gay is unnatural and goes against traditional family, traditional marriage and traditional values, and that these are all bad things, your ability to be out, your ability to ever come out, and your ability to accept yourself or be accepted by your peers is less.

It's completely counterintuitive on every level to default to 'assuming' there's no relationship.

[palbert]

Impressive. You read The Fountainhead in 3 minutes.

[TX-Beau]

God save us from Ayn Rand!

[JockBoy87]

I support gay marriage, civil liberties, universal healthcare, and haven't voted for a Republican for national office that I can remember... so by JUB's judgement, I'm a pretty hardcore conservative.

Among developed countries, these are centrist positions. In Western Europe, for example, not even conservatives oppose universal health care, and this year, the UK and France are will become the last major Western European countries to pass gay marriage. Only Ireland and small states are left.

not sure how I'd define my "out" status. I generally just don't care about it... which is to say, I don't care if people know I'm gay and I don't care enough that I feel like I have to go out of my way to mention it to them unless I have a particular reason to (any more so than straight people go out of their way to tell people how heterosexual they are)

my cousin actually yelled at me over the holidays for never coming out. I never thought I had to. I live my life, and anyone who wants to be involved with it is more than welcome... when I mention offhand to my parents about going out on dates (if I've got a good restaurant or bar to recommend) and they don't ask followup questions about the date, that's them choosing not to be involved.

You don't have to, but the frustration may be over the fact that coming out has a dramatic impact on the social status of LGBT people. I would even go so far as to say it is the most dramatic factor in changing attitudes about LGBT people.

[Rolyo85]

Impressive. You read The Fountainhead in 3 minutes.

I read the character description from the link you provided. I am not going to read an Ayn Rand novel to understand a post whose only purpose is to troll me (or for any other reason for that matter). So, unless you have something of substance to say...

[palbert]

I read the character description from the link you provided. I am not going to read an Ayn Rand novel to understand a post whose only purpose is to troll me (or for any other reason for that matter). So, unless you have something of substance to say...

I will say it to a person of substance.

[Lestatnj]

Been out since 73. 1st voted in 68.

68 - Nixon Didn't trust Humphrey. He was LBJ's man, & I wasn't fond of him- Vietnam. Hey I was only 21!!
72 - McGovern - Didn't like Nixon + Vietnam, Cambodia & Agnew & Kent State
76 - Carter - Ford pardoned Nixon. In hindsight he was right. Loved Betty Ford though
80 - Carter - Only liked Reagan in KING'S ROAD & shilling for Chesterfield Cigs
84 - Mondale - The "reborns" made me sick, were homophobic, no republican ever spoke out against them
88 - Dukakis - Old Bush was Reagan Lite/the Willie Horton nonsense. Continuation of Reagan's "don't say AIDS policy
92 - Clinton - Same as above
96 - " - Dole too conservative& again the fundies & Eye of Newt
00 - Gore - Seriously flawed W
04 - Kerry Ditto, & W used gay rights & gay people as a wedge issue. Quite frankly he's a jerk off
08 - Obama McCain kowtowed to the righties, the fundies & neocons AFTER Bush/Rove had tried to destroy him
12 - " I think I covered this last year (Mitt who?)

I was in the closet in 68, no one knew. In 72, some friends knew. I blew the door off in 73, marched in all of the Gay Pride parades from 74 til 01. Volunteered for Obama in PA in 08.

The only other republican aside from Tricky Dicky that I voted for was Christine Whitman for gov of NJ. She was for gay rights

[Rolyo85]

I will say it to a person of substance.

Ah, such a grown up and unpredictable approach. Throw in some personal insult, and when called out, refuse to answer on the basis of "the other guy isn't worth my time". Well, if the other guy isn't worth your time, one wonders what you're doing in his topic, other than posting nothing of substance?

[xbuzzerx]

I will say it to a person of substance.

Can I have your point? I haven't read Ayn Rand.

[palbert]

Can I have your point? I haven't read Ayn Rand.

You will never understand Kuli and the like until you read "self-ownership" Rand. It can be heavy going but it explains a lot of the backplay of the neo-cons. A must. Fountainhead is enough; no need for Atlas Shrugged.

[xbuzzerx]

You will never understand Kuli and the like until you read "self-ownership" Rand. It can be heavy going but it explains a lot of the backplay of the neo-cons. A must. Fountainhead is enough; no need for Atlas Shrugged.

Well can you explain a little bit about how Ayn Rand's concept of "self ownership" would bear on what I said above about people's surroundings/traditions/upbringing/community/beliefs?

[JustMe5]

When referring to conservative/republican/libertarian gays, I don't think political views have much to do with how "out" one is. There are lots of current Log Cabin Repubs and GoProuders who have been out for several years.

Also, how you were raised usually has an influence on your views. Someone who comes from a strongly conservative prosperous family would probably be influenced by their family's politics.

And then there's life experiences. I'm originally from a country whose government fell victim to a Leftist takeover, so I witnessed firsthand the subsequent detrimental effects of a Leftist ideology. I think that that (having lived it and experienced it for myself) holds more weight in the real world than Americans who have never lived anywhere other than in the USA but who somehow think Socialism would work here in America because "it works in Europe".

It actually seems that most JUB members base their political affiliation (democrat/liberal) solely on the gay marriage issue.

[Rolyo85]

Um, it does not "actually seem" that way to anyone here but you. It's been repeated ad nauseum that marriage equality is what makes the GOP unacceptable to us liberals, but it is nowhere close to the ONLY reason why we'd vote Democrat. As for the other side, they don't care about marriage equality at all, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Socialism already works in the US. As well as in Europe

But feel free to vote in the thread. So far the numbers are fascinating

[JockBoy87]

It actually seems that most JUB members base their political affiliation (democrat/liberal) solely on the gay marriage issue.

Even when the country allows universal equality, don't hold your breath waiting for any LGBT people to switch sides.

[GiancarloC]

When referring to conservative/republican/libertarian gays, I don't think political views have much to do with how "out" one is. There are lots of current Log Cabin Repubs and GoProuders who have been out for several years.

We're talking about those who aren't part of those groups and are in the closet. And many in the LCR and GOPRoud aren't even gay to begin with. Many of their members are actually straight.

Also, how you were raised usually has an influence on your views. Someone who comes from a strongly conservative prosperous family would probably be influenced by their family's politics.

A "strong conservative prosperous family"... as opposed to a "liberal destitute family"? How condescending.

And then there's life experiences. I'm originally from a country whose government fell victim to a Leftist takeover, so I witnessed firsthand the subsequent detrimental effects of a Leftist ideology. I think that that (having lived it and experienced it for myself) holds more weight in the real world than Americans who have never lived anywhere other than in the USA but who somehow think Socialism would work here in America because "it works in Europe".

And I'm from a country that sold itself to banks and is throwing its people under the bus because of austerity and right wing corporatism. And nice attempt at a swipe at socialism... fails miserably really. Those countries that sold themselves out to right wing conservative politics and banks are failing economically. I just hope my country of Spain can recover from that austerity disaster that sent it downwards. And no, it's not socialism that hurt my country. It's capitalism and that a-hole Mariano Rajoy.

As far as holding much weight, those viewed espoused in your post are as light as a feather.

It actually seems that most JUB members base their political affiliation (democrat/liberal) solely on the gay marriage issue.

Baloney. Most people here base their political affiliation on a variety of viewpoints. And that's why many of them could never be republican. I just see this post as another failed swipe at those on the political left.

[xbuzzerx]

When referring to conservative/republican/libertarian gays, I don't think political views have much to do with how "out" one is. There are lots of current Log Cabin Repubs and GoProuders who have been out for several years.

Also, how you were raised usually has an influence on your views. Someone who comes from a strongly conservative prosperous family would probably be influenced by their family's politics.

And then there's life experiences. I'm originally from a country whose government fell victim to a Leftist takeover, so I witnessed firsthand the subsequent detrimental effects of a Leftist ideology. I think that that (having lived it and experienced it for myself) holds more weight in the real world than Americans who have never lived anywhere other than in the USA but who somehow think Socialism would work here in America because "it works in Europe".

It actually seems that most JUB members base their political affiliation (democrat/liberal) solely on the gay marriage issue.

I don't know if you were around or saw it, couldn't even tell you what thread it was in, but a couple weeks back I expressed some disgust at the concept of how, were the Republicans to totally reform just on gay rights and nothing else, how many gay people I suspect would happily hop ship and give the finger to women, minorities and everyone else.

No, not all gay people are single issue voters. But yes, you're right that the only thing separating some of them from the right wing is self interest. You see plenty of racism around JUB... as one example.

[JayHawk]

This is completely anecdotal and the opposite of scientific research BUT in my experience while many red state gay men are closeted I have also found that many more of them are in committed relationships. That is not to imply anything either. Just my experience in living in 32 of the states, dating in many of them and making friends in the community in all of them.

[GiancarloC]

This is completely anecdotal and the opposite of scientific research BUT in my experience while many red state gay men are closeted I have also found that many more of them are in committed relationships. That is not to imply anything either. Just my experience in living in 32 of the states, dating in many of them and making friends in the community in all of them.

Just a question, even if they are in a red state... where do they stand politically generally speaking?

I know many here in California who are in committed relationships, several couples who briefly got married when same sex marriage was legalized here. I guess it's just depends on who you meet.

[JayHawk]

Like I said completely anecdotal. I knew of plenty committed folks in Cali and New England and New York and Washington and what not.... However there were also ten times as many clubber bois ready to go. I think perhaps it is the availability of clubs and an open ability to be gay on the streets with no apologies.... just as it should be. In the red states there simply wasn't that many opportunities so the perception was such.

As far as political persuasion? There are many more conservative gays in red states than in blue states.

Like I said again just my experience. Believe me it isn't a slight. It is simply different....

[Rolyo85]

Oh, I'd totally accept that correlation. Conservatives - actual conservatives - are like Victorian nuns when it comes to dating and monogamy, so it would make sense.

[GiancarloC]

I accept that, JH. Yeah cities do have more gay people out that's for sure. And the ability to be out was more of a possibility.

[xbuzzerx]

Like I said completely anecdotal. I knew of plenty committed folks in Cali and New England and New York and Washington and what not.... However there were also ten times as many clubber bois ready to go. I think perhaps it is the availability of clubs and an open ability to be gay on the streets with no apologies.... just as it should be. In the red states there simply wasn't that many opportunities so the perception was such.

As far as political persuasion? There are many more conservative gays in red states than in blue states.

Like I said again just my experience. Believe me it isn't a slight. It is simply different....

I'd be surprised if that weren't the case. It makes total sense.

[HenryReardon]

it seems to me that it's usually the conservatives on here that urge posters to stay in the closet, to be ultra careful about who knows they're gay etc.

o

That is a rather broad generalization and totally unsupported by evidence at hand.

You need to define your terms.

For example, do you define being out as one who:

a: gets in the face of every person they meet and say "Hi, I'm Ben Gay" with a clear subtext of "want to make something of it?"
or
b: goes through life neither announcing nor hiding his gayness believing that it's no more significant that eye or hair color.
or
c: somewhere in between.

[Rolyo85]

I can't support it because evidence of this claim would constitute mining other forums or something like that, which is against the rules of CE&P. However, without naming names, I could suggest reading through the Coming Out and Relationships forum and see who gives what advice. That is a VERY telling forum for a lot of things about people's character.

And of course I mean "somewhere in between". Largely because I consider option B to be just another term for "closeted" and A - not having basis in reality. "Neither announcing nor hiding" in a society where the norm is "straight" IS hiding. Being out means not caring who knows but also being aware that people in your life largely DO know - whether through you telling them or the grapevine.

[HenryReardon]

And of course I mean "somewhere in between". Largely because I consider option B to be just another term for "closeted" and A - not having basis in reality. "Neither announcing nor hiding" in a society where the norm is "straight" IS hiding. Being out means not caring who knows but also being aware that people in your life largely DO know - whether through you telling them or the grapevine.

You have just contradicted yourself. You stated that option B is another term for closeted, then went on to state that "being out means not caring who knows but also being aware that people in your life largely Do know...." which is the essence of Option B.

[Rolyo85]

Then I misunderstood you. Because the way you said it sounded to me like "not caring who knows, but if nobody asks, wouldn't tell", which - if people assume you're straight (and in a heteronormative society they do) - would imply misleading them by not saying anything. In my version at one point or another you have told people actively. ALSO, I think being truly out also includes embracing the fact that yes, being gay is way more relevant than the color of your eyes, and impacts your life in a much more meaningful way.

[sixthson]

When you are politically active, it is easy to assume that most people are. Considering how many people vote, this obviously is not true. I suspect there are many out gays who have no poliical stance. I think it is those who hold extreme views on either end who want to believe there is a correlation but those are the ones who are most vocal and militant while those with moderate political views or none at all are uncounted. And I suspect they don't care what the extremists think.

[HenryReardon]

, I think being truly out also includes embracing the fact that yes, being gay is way more relevant than the color of your eyes, and impacts your life in a much more meaningful way.

Dead wrong. The fact that one is gay is no more relevant that the fact that one has red hair, or blue eyes, or ....

To say otherwise is to place being gay in some sort of 'different' or 'other' status.

[Rolyo85]

Dead wrong. The fact that one is gay is no more relevant that the fact that one has red hair, or blue eyes, or ....

To say otherwise is to place being gay in some sort of 'different' or 'other' status.

No, it just recognizes simple truths. Just like being male or female has a much bigger relevance than hair color. Being gay defines a hundred times more things about your life than any physical attribute.

[HenryReardon]

No, it just recognizes simple truths. Just like being male or female has a much bigger relevance than hair color. Being gay defines a hundred times more things about your life than any physical attribute.

Disagree totally. And, it depends on whether we're talking about how you are perceived by the casual observer, or how your private life is lived.

[Rolyo85]

Your private life is part of a larger social construct. And you can be as uncaring about your sexuality in your so called private life, as you want (though if you're not alone, you're sharing it with a MAN, which actually completely changes the color of your private life), but in every interaction you have with others, how YOU see them, and how THEY see you is changed due to your sexuality.

But you are the last person I care to have this argument with. As I recall, you don't even support marriage equality.

[xbuzzerx]

I don't understand strong protestations from right-wingers that there's no correlation, not out of a political bias but because what they're saying is counterintuitive. You ascribe to a part of the political spectrum which, on the whole, does not really accept homosexuality as something that should be recognized as equal, at least not in law (which is where it counts). Saying "there's no reason to believe people with right to far right political affiliation would have no less instance of being comfortable being out" makes no sense, and if it makes any sense, it hasn't been properly explained yet.

[GiancarloC]

Disagree totally. And, it depends on whether we're talking about how you are perceived by the casual observer, or how your private life is lived.

One can disagree all they want, but hair or eye color isn't even close to sexuality... whether one is gay or straight. Sexuality defines who one spends their life with. Hair color and eye color do not.

[mightbe]

Reardon-

Need one remind you that sexual orientation is mostly a brain thing, and our brain perceives? It can't sense. It has no sensation in its own right. Our nerve cells aren't gay, neither is our tongue, or our eyes, or body in any significant way. Our body isn't attracted to men, our brain is, and it controls the body to fill that desire. In that way, you can call your hair color as irrelevant, because it doesn't affect perception. You cannot separate your brain from gay. It's hard-coded in. It isn't visible to others, but it effects how we see the world.

It's like a collection of computer hardware. You can install many different operating systems on it, and each one uses that hardware a little differently. That hardware can collectively be called a Linux, or Windows, or Mac, but it all depends on the OS.

We often use "I" to denote ourselves, including physical attributes, but much of the SELF is located entirely in a massive, complex electro-chemical reaction in our brain.

[Rolyo85]

And we miraculously still don't have a single closeted Republican or an out conservative...

[JockBoy87]

And we miraculously still don't have a single closeted Republican or an out conservative...

Those two groups only make 5% of the sample so far. That's extraordinary, while 72% of respondents are out liberals, Democrats, and independents or moderates.

[JayHawk]

And we miraculously still don't have a single closeted Republican or an out conservative...

Perhaps this unscientific poll is skewed by the current reality. I am probably the most conservative thinking person on this board. I know that can easily be construed to be an insult but what I mean is that I don't simply accept what is told to me from any source. Therefore i have seen through what is claimed to be a conservative party for a long time and have not affiliated. If you add to that the concept that it is legal for me to serve now whereas it was not a few years back... well then you might have me reporting as holding conservative ideas but closeted at work.

[Nick4444]

Only ONE REPUBLICAN entirely out!?!?!

[layton]

I think the question is flawed, because so much more goes into how out you are than just your political stance.

This I'm a liberal and not out at all, because my parents are conservative(moderate conservative but still) and while I think they would accept me it is still an uncertainty, so I will most likely be in the closet and until I'm done with the university.

[Rolyo85]

In not a single post in this topic does anyone claim that your political stance defines your sexuality. If anything, most gay guys I know are not political at all...

[Rolyo85]

Well, I figure this topic has gotten as much attention as it's ever going to get. So the end result? If you're Republican or Conservative, you're most likely either not out, or refuse to talk about it. Do you think this little slice of the internet is any indication for the world at large?