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  1. #201
    aww I wanted to explode looseliam's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Heh -- I like it.

    For accuracy, though, there should be a white wedge labeled "Leviticus? What's that?"
    I'm glad some of them can actually identify the bible. We'll work on on specifics later.

    Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day.
    Give a man religion, and he'll starve praying for a fish.

  2. #202
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by looseliam View Post
    I'm glad some of them can actually identify the bible. We'll work on on specifics later.
    Of course they can identify it -- it's the thing they pick up and wave at Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who come to the door.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  3. #203
    aww I wanted to explode looseliam's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Of course they can identify it -- it's the thing they pick up and wave at Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who come to the door.
    I guess I've been doing it wrong. I use a nail gun.

    Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day.
    Give a man religion, and he'll starve praying for a fish.

  4. #204
    JUB Addict JUB Admin JUB's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram View Post
    Surely this is the limit:
    OMG LMAO!!!
    Thanks for your donations to Matthew Shepard. Total raised was over 10k. RIP Tyler.

  5. #205
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Damn you Kul and a couple more JUBbites above, posing themselves Carl Sagan's question and all that: you are forcing me to write an opuscule aren't you?

  6. #206
    aww I wanted to explode looseliam's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by belamo View Post
    Damn you Kul and a couple more JUBbites above, posing themselves Carl Sagan's question and all that: you are forcing me to write an opuscule aren't you?
    Opuscule? YOu know, they have a cream for that.

    Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day.
    Give a man religion, and he'll starve praying for a fish.

  7. #207
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by looseliam View Post
    Opuscule? YOu know, they have a cream for that.
    Since you are still around YOu should know that, too often, they just do not work for the plumper ones

  8. #208
    On the Prowl canesnbeach's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    the idea that there were no scientific advances between the fall of the Roman Empire and the European Renaissance is a little silly... innovation is almost always cumulative and gradual.

    some of the biggest advances during that time period came from highly religious Muslim nations in the middle east.
    There were no such thing as 'muslim nations' during the middle ages, the nation-state is a modern invention. While it is true that after the fall of Rome scientific progress diffused from Islam to Christianity (a trend that would not be reversed until the Florentine Renaissance), none of the muslim lands were 'highly religious'. When Saladin left Jerusalem during the 3rd crusade, the focus of the Islamic world shifted from exultation of Allah to organizing the economic and political chaos left behind by the crusaders. The former crusading kingdoms of Antioch, Tripoli, Edessa, et al became a magnet for disaffected Christians and Muslims, who abandoned religious fundamentalism after centuries of bloodshed, favoring instead a return to the classical legacies of Rome, Greece, and Alexandria. Religion, during this time, was subverted in favor of science, a trend that led directly to the Islamic Golden Age (750 - 1300BC) and its advances in astronomy, medicine, trigonometry, and geometrical optics. The age of muslim enlightenment ended in the mid-13th century, when a rebirth of Islamic fundamentalism reacted against the intellectual elites by destroying libraries and madrasahs throughout the Middle East and North Africa, and plunged the muslim lands into their very own Dark Ages, which have arguably lasted until this day.

    In the Christian West, the end of the Roman empire marked a return to tribalism, feudalism, and constant warfare, with religion often invoked as rallying cry against decadent excesses (and the scientific advances that made it possible). Philosophers and scientists were targeted as heretics, and either executed or exiled to the -then- more progressive Muslim East. For the roughly 1000 years of the Dark Ages, Europe 'forgot' the earth was round (something the ancients knew very well), practicing medicine was equivalent to witchcraft, alchemy (a precursor to modern chemistry) was branded as 'occultism', and the written works of Plato, Aristotle, Hero of Alexandria (who discovered steam power), Galen, and Ptolemy, once a cornerstone of civilization, passed into obscurity, and then into legend. It was only during the Italian Renaissance, which shifted the balance of power away from the Vatican into the hands of wealthy merchants, and so favored Humanism over Christianity, that science and philosophy rose again to prominence.

    To highlight the idea that religion drove human civilization back into the cave, realize that almost all of the scientific 'discoveries' made between the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution had already been discovered by the ancient world. The idea of the atom, the engineering of vast interior spaces, machines that increased productivity, free market economies, and state investment in infrastructure all had their inception with the Greeks, the Romans, and the golden age of Alexandria. This means that as a direct consequence of the religious fanaticism of the Dark Ages, human civilization is about 1000 years behind where it ought to be. The collective loss of reason experienced during that time set us back quite a bit. It is probably true that, had classical advances in science been allowed to flourish from 476-1400BC, we would have colonies on Mars by now.

    TL;DR: the world is a shittier place today because religion was allowed to reign unchecked for way too long.

  9. #209
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by canesnbeach View Post
    There were no such thing as 'muslim nations' during the middle ages, the nation-state is a modern invention. While it is true that after the fall of Rome scientific progress diffused from Islam to Christianity (a trend that would not be reversed until the Florentine Renaissance), none of the muslim lands were 'highly religious'. When Saladin left Jerusalem during the 3rd crusade, the focus of the Islamic world shifted from exultation of Allah to organizing the economic and political chaos left behind by the crusaders. The former crusading kingdoms of Antioch, Tripoli, Edessa, et al became a magnet for disaffected Christians and Muslims, who abandoned religious fundamentalism after centuries of bloodshed, favoring instead a return to the classical legacies of Rome, Greece, and Alexandria. Religion, during this time, was subverted in favor of science, a trend that led directly to the Islamic Golden Age (750 - 1300BC) and its advances in astronomy, medicine, trigonometry, and geometrical optics. The age of muslim enlightenment ended in the mid-13th century, when a rebirth of Islamic fundamentalism reacted against the intellectual elites by destroying libraries and madrasahs throughout the Middle East and North Africa, and plunged the muslim lands into their very own Dark Ages, which have arguably lasted until this day.

    In the Christian West, the end of the Roman empire marked a return to tribalism, feudalism, and constant warfare, with religion often invoked as rallying cry against decadent excesses (and the scientific advances that made it possible). Philosophers and scientists were targeted as heretics, and either executed or exiled to the -then- more progressive Muslim East. For the roughly 1000 years of the Dark Ages, Europe 'forgot' the earth was round (something the ancients knew very well), practicing medicine was equivalent to witchcraft, alchemy (a precursor to modern chemistry) was branded as 'occultism', and the written works of Plato, Aristotle, Hero of Alexandria (who discovered steam power), Galen, and Ptolemy, once a cornerstone of civilization, passed into obscurity, and then into legend. It was only during the Italian Renaissance, which shifted the balance of power away from the Vatican into the hands of wealthy merchants, and so favored Humanism over Christianity, that science and philosophy rose again to prominence.

    To highlight the idea that religion drove human civilization back into the cave, realize that almost all of the scientific 'discoveries' made between the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution had already been discovered by the ancient world. The idea of the atom, the engineering of vast interior spaces, machines that increased productivity, free market economies, and state investment in infrastructure all had their inception with the Greeks, the Romans, and the golden age of Alexandria. This means that as a direct consequence of the religious fanaticism of the Dark Ages, human civilization is about 1000 years behind where it ought to be. The collective loss of reason experienced during that time set us back quite a bit. It is probably true that, had classical advances in science been allowed to flourish from 476-1400BC, we would have colonies on Mars by now.

    TL;DR: the world is a shittier place today because religion was allowed to reign unchecked for way too long.
    In your account you are ignoring the impact, calling it "devastating" would be softening it, of the Mongol invasions, an impact not just on material life, but in the minds and the breaking in the continuity with the civilized heritage that had come from far older times than the Muslim era itself. Just think of the moralIST backlash right after WWII, during the neoVictorian 1950s, or the XIXth century (the "Victorian" era) after the Enlightenment and Napoleonic turmoil: had it not been for the parallel and sustained development of democracy and of science, and of technology to articulate both and made them prevail over Bible&fists, we would be living in a world featured in the wet dreams of the nuts who parasite our supposedly sinful system and society to strive to bring about a fairytale blessed era that didn't exist even in the Bible, less in the world that composed the Bible itself.

  10. #210
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    I haven't heard that whole wall of text, but the highlighted jumped out at me as flatout untrue and characteristic of the renaissance revisionist view of the middle ages. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth)

    there was no "return" to the feudal state so much as it was an evolution from the Roman system (and it was probably as much a cause of the fall of the Roman Empire as it was a result from). wealthy senators and ex-military leaders sitting on giant farm estates stopped paying taxes and started raising their own armies as Western Roman soldiers retreated from Britain and Gaul... from there, it's a short hop till they start declaring themselves Kings.
    Just like communist "democracies" were "an evolution" from liberal democracies.

  11. #211
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    I haven't heard that whole wall of text, but the highlighted jumped out at me as flatout untrue and characteristic of the renaissance revisionist view of the middle ages. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth)

    there was no "return" to the feudal state so much as it was an evolution from the Roman system (and it was probably as much a cause of the fall of the Roman Empire as it was a result from). wealthy senators and ex-military leaders sitting on giant farm estates stopped paying taxes and started raising their own armies as Western Roman soldiers retreated from Britain and Gaul... from there, it's a short hop till they start declaring themselves Kings.
    I think people might be confusing flat earth with earth-centred-solar-system.
    Two journalists killed during live broadcasts by madman smothering them with pillows. Because remember, guns don't kill people....

  12. #212
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    The "educated classes" never set the general tone of an era, especially in eras in which they are much farther severed from the rest of the population.
    It's like saying that, today, since "educated people" do not doubt about the reality of evolution (in a general way, not even entering into darwinism and the "ape" controversy) as a driving force in nature and history, creationist views are irrelevant.

    The mere presence of more or less "educated" or "enlightened" views doesn't account for its force; that is why it is not puzzling that the "cultured" Germany up to the 1920s ended up in the Nazi regime: simply because a Thomas Mann, a Magnus Hirschfeld or a Max Planck can not account for the general level of education of a whole country, and therefore have no determinant influence, when any, in the political and economical course or derive of that country.

    Beliefs are about guts, not about reason, and beliefs, faith is what ultimately drives populations... even if those guts only send forth shit, it keeps the body alive and working.

  13. #213
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    I haven't heard that whole wall of text, but the highlighted jumped out at me as flatout untrue and characteristic of the renaissance revisionist view of the middle ages. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth)

    there was no "return" to the feudal state so much as it was an evolution from the Roman system (and it was probably as much a cause of the fall of the Roman Empire as it was a result from). wealthy senators and ex-military leaders sitting on giant farm estates stopped paying taxes and started raising their own armies as Western Roman soldiers retreated from Britain and Gaul... from there, it's a short hop till they start declaring themselves Kings.
    The Empire was already effectively feudal due to the patronage system: anyone who wanted rights and privileges protected had to have a patron, generally one of those wealthy senators, to speak on his behalf. So when the central authority went, the system in place was already basically feudal.

    Institutions of learning also depended on patronage. So when the budgets of those wealthy senators were suddenly faced with the need for more than just token security forces, they went Republican: defense spending went up, and everything else got cut.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #214
    On the Prowl canesnbeach's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    I haven't heard that whole wall of text, but the highlighted jumped out at me as flatout untrue and characteristic of the renaissance revisionist view of the middle ages. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth)

    there was no "return" to the feudal state so much as it was an evolution from the Roman system (and it was probably as much a cause of the fall of the Roman Empire as it was a result from). wealthy senators and ex-military leaders sitting on giant farm estates stopped paying taxes and started raising their own armies as Western Roman soldiers retreated from Britain and Gaul... from there, it's a short hop till they start declaring themselves Kings.
    While the small intellectual elite did in fact believe the Earth was a sphere (see Thomas Aquinas' writings on the subject), the majority of the population did not. The masses had no access to education, so all knowledge was limited to monasteries and did not extend to the average citizen of the Middle Ages. This was in stark contrast to the classical world, where education in all areas of human endeavor was a pre-requisite for any man who wished to enter public life.

    Also, it's a little ridiculous to think feudalism 'evolved' out of the Roman system. The basic requirements for feudal states had been present in the West since the time of Pericles. The reason it never became a social current was because repressive tyrants were always checked by revolutions, and most importantly, because until the fall of Rome, all the citizens of a polis were more or less equal under the law. Among the many populist causes Caesar championed, for example, was the establishment of a legal system for addressing farmer's grievances against the optimates who owned the land. Granted, that was a more a political maneuver than a genuine act of justice, but it had the effect that no one 'landlord' could oppress peasants indefinitely without incurring the wrath of the Emperor (after all, revolts had the unwelcome effect of disturbing the flow of goods into state coffers, so preventing them was paramount).

    By the way, the rise of kingdoms had nothing to do with the reason why the Dark Ages were 'dark'. Despotic rulers, if sufficiently atuned to public sentiment, usually managed to sustain economic and scientific progress throughout their domain (see Caesar, Augustus, Claudius, Marcus Aurelius, Trajan, Hadrian, Alexander, the Ptolemies, etc). It wasn't kings that plunged Europe in darkness, it was religious fanaticism. In fact, the only difference between the rulers of the middle ages and those of the ancient world, is that the latter paid only lip service to religious doctrine, while the former fully embraced it as a road to salvation (hence the Crusades). Nor is it true that the empire's fall led inevitably to social regression. Empires had come and gone since man first discovered agriculture, but never had there been such intellectual vacuums left in their wake.

  15. #215
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by canesnbeach View Post
    While the small intellectual elite did in fact believe the Earth was a sphere (see Thomas Aquinas' writings on the subject), the majority of the population did not. The masses had no access to education, so all knowledge was limited to monasteries and did not extend to the average citizen of the Middle Ages. This was in stark contrast to the classical world, where education in all areas of human endeavor was a pre-requisite for any man who wished to enter public life.
    I can imagine a "Far Side" style cartoon where a monk in a field radios ahead to a monastery that a couple of knights are on their way up . . . .

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #216
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by canesnbeach View Post

    By the way, the rise of kingdoms had nothing to do with the reason why the Dark Ages were 'dark'. Despotic rulers, if sufficiently atuned to public sentiment, usually managed to sustain economic and scientific progress throughout their domain (see Caesar, Augustus, Claudius, Marcus Aurelius, Trajan, Hadrian, Alexander, the Ptolemies, etc). It wasn't kings that plunged Europe in darkness, it was religious fanaticism. In fact, the only difference between the rulers of the middle ages and those of the ancient world, is that the latter paid only lip service to religious doctrine, while the former fully embraced it as a road to salvation (hence the Crusades). Nor is it true that the empire's fall led inevitably to social regression. Empires had come and gone since man first discovered agriculture, but never had there been such intellectual vacuums left in their wake.
    There was no dark age in Europe after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

    The Eastern Roman Empire continued to flourish (as, Byzantium) until its fall to Ottoman conquest in the 15th century.

    The structure of the (Catholic) church through its monasteries provided schools, universities, welfare for the poor and hospitals that today would be provided by government whereas, the king collected taxes to pay for his court's comfort and to provide for an army and avoided interfering in matters administered by the church.

    Likewise, in the Byzantine Empire the (Orthodox) church provided similar services that served the common good, leaving the emperor to focus on protecting the empire.

    The great universities of Europe were originally established as religious institutions such as Oxford University, and Paris University. According to legend Oxford university was founded in 872 when Alfred the Great happened to meet monks there and had a scholarly debate that lasted several days. In reality it grew up in the 12th century when famous teachers began to lecture there and groups of students came to live and study in the town. The university was given a boost in 1167 when, for political reasons, the English king ordered all students in France to return home continuing their education at Oxford.

  17. #217
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    There was no dark age in Europe after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

    The Eastern Roman Empire continued to flourish (as, Byzantium) until its fall to Ottoman conquest in the 15th century.

    The structure of the (Catholic) church through its monasteries provided schools, universities, welfare for the poor and hospitals that today would be provided by government whereas, the king collected taxes to pay for his court's comfort and to provide for an army and avoided interfering in matters administered by the church.

    Likewise, in the Byzantine Empire the (Orthodox) church provided similar services that served the common good, leaving the emperor to focus on protecting the empire.

    The great universities of Europe were originally established as religious institutions such as Oxford University, and Paris University. According to legend Oxford university was founded in 872 when Alfred the Great happened to meet monks there and had a scholarly debate that lasted several days. In reality it grew up in the 12th century when famous teachers began to lecture there and groups of students came to live and study in the town. The university was given a boost in 1167 when, for political reasons, the English king ordered all students in France to return home continuing their education at Oxford.
    The steady flourishing of Constantinople as Western Europe fell is just another myth, and it's funny that you try to deny one myth (to the extent to which it IS a myth, as I discuss below) with another one.
    The "Byzantine" empire started to rot right after the first VIIth century crisis, when Heraclius had to turn a "Roman" empire of Antiquity into a power able of surviving the Middle Ages. Your vision represents the XIXth century historiographic myth of continuity in the Western world, when the reason why the Roman empire had been split in two and kept that way, as well as all the petty fights all through the first half of the Middle Ages, and until the cold shoulder in the final times around the first half of the XVth century, show that the Byzantine empire had become and was perceived in the developing of the West and in the subsequent political games, as an irritating, heretical, despicable "Oriental" power, acting as a buffer zone between the West and the muslim East.

    Again, the Dark Age term is applied to the two different eras making up the so-called Middle Ages, while it truly has nothing to do with the urban revival and all it economical and cultural consequences from the XIth-XIIth century on, but most certainly applies to the centuries of turmoil and "readjustment" after the definitive decay of urban civilization even in Constantinople, urban life in the IXth century was nothing like during Late Antiquity, say the Justinian era.
    Clientelism was part of the roman society, but you are mistaking it for the estate burocratic system that sustained the Roman empire. in fact, the crisis of the Republic era showed that that system could not sustain the growth, social, economical and political, of the Roman state. To say that feudalism was a "natural evolution" of the old Roman imperial system, it's like saying that criminal gangs are a "natural evolution" from a well-adjusted society. It's not an "evolution from", it's what remains when you scrap the top, and you could hold more rightfully that the system was precisely a burocratic cap, never well-adjusted with the population and the system below, but you could say the same with the USA, any Chinese state, imperial or commie, or any empire-sort of state or federation, no matter how it be named.

    That academical view and judgement tries to link feudalism with the previous system as a means of justifying everything coming down to modern Western civilization down from Classical Antiquity through the Middle Ages, and it was made, like most humanistic crap that people today take for granted, when they don't plainly ignore it, in the XIXth century that wanted to offer a righteous lineal, simplistic explanation, logical and even, of what could rather be considered a Frankensteinish creation according to those elements (Roman system, feudalism...) that had nothing to do with each other as whole political systems beyond personal relationships in a restricted circle.

  18. #218
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by belamo View Post
    The steady flourishing of Constantinople as Western Europe fell is just another myth, and it's funny that you try to deny one myth (to the extent to which it IS a myth, as I discuss below) with another one.
    The "Byzantine" empire started to rot right after the first VIIth century crisis, when Heraclius had to turn a "Roman" empire of Antiquity into a power able of surviving the Middle Ages. Your vision represents the XIXth century historiographic myth of continuity in the Western world, when the reason why the Roman empire had been split in two and kept that way, as well as all the petty fights all through the first half of the Middle Ages, and until the cold shoulder in the final times around the first half of the XVth century, show that the Byzantine empire had become and was perceived in the developing of the West and in the subsequent political games, as an irritating, heretical, despicable "Oriental" power, acting as a buffer zone between the West and the muslim East.

    Again, the Dark Age term is applied to the two different eras making up the so-called Middle Ages, while it truly has nothing to do with the urban revival and all it economical and cultural consequences from the XIth-XIIth century on, but most certainly applies to the centuries of turmoil and "readjustment" after the definitive decay of urban civilization even in Constantinople, urban life in the IXth century was nothing like during Late Antiquity, say the Justinian era.
    There were ebbs, and flows in the Byzantine Empire typical of any civilisation experiencing continued invasions, and wars nevertheless for all its ups, and downs Byzantium flourished over the centuries until its surrender to Ottoman invasion in the 15th century.

    Turmoil and readjustment are permanent features of human civilisation dating back to Hellenistic Greece, even to earlier civilisations such as Babylon and Sumeria that can even be witnessed, and have been replicated in the Europe of the twentieth century with two world wars, and the Communist revolution in Russia. And, of course I should not neglect to mention the civil war in Spain. Spain recovered to flourish again.

    What point are you attempting to make?

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    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    There were ebbs, and flows in the Byzantine Empire typical of any civilisation experiencing continued invasions, and wars nevertheless for all its ups, and downs Byzantium flourished over the centuries until its surrender to Ottoman invasion in the 15th century.

    Turmoil and readjustment are permanent features of human civilisation dating back to Hellenistic Greece, even to earlier civilisations such as Babylon and Sumeria that can even be witnessed, and have been replicated in the Europe of the twentieth century with two world wars, and the Communist revolution in Russia. And, of course I should not neglect to mention the civil war in Spain. Spain recovered to flourish again.

    What point are you attempting to make?
    Read my whole edit but, in short, "my point" is trying to show how unreasonable is to pretend to reduce historical reality to a lineal, simplistic formula, and then account for the complexities that point the incoherence and unsustainability of that view as mere, anecdotical "ebbs and flows". Your vision is the vision of their own ancestry contrived by XIXth century nations who wanted or needed to consider themselves as a continuousentity through different ages and different political entities: revisionism made official. The logical consequence is that anything "attempting" to show the incoherence of it is equalled with a mere punk attack to it, equalled with "revisionism" precisely.

    We know your point: it has been written on any kids' schoolbook for decades.
    The problem with investigation in humanities is that, not being inherently more complicated or abstract than other more abstract and complex sciences, it is hindered by prejudices or assumptions, or implications that authorized investigators are not ready or even willing to consider, let alone admit in their... work...

  20. #220
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    If the truth in the course of history is all so "natural", independent from prejudices and almost evident, I wonder into what is the Western world "naturally" evolving right now.
    If that can only be ascertained from the future, then it is not from the facts, but from the perception of the facts, and not about the answer to the question, but about the answer that you want to have.

  21. #221
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by belamo View Post

    "my point" is trying to show how unreasonable is to pretend to reduce historical reality to a lineal, simplistic formula, and then account for the complexities that point the incoherence and unsustainability of that view as mere, anecdotical "ebbs and flows".
    All great civilisations record ebbs, and flows. The Byzantine Empire is no exception.

    The truth is that Europe never had a dark age.

    In fact the term “dark ages” is almost as ancient as the period itself – it was coined in the 1330s by Petrarch, the Italian scholar to refer to the decline of Latin literature.

    For contemporary students of history, the term (the dark ages) is now officially known as the Early Middle Ages.

    Classical Education was the system used by the Universities created in the Early Middle Ages. The universities taught the arts, law, medicine, and theology. The University of Bologna (founded in 1088) was the first ever to grant degrees. In addition to the classical structure (based on Ancient Greek education) these medieval universities were heavily influenced by Islamic education which was thriving at the time - viz. Moorish Spain where Muslim education became the catalyst for beginning of The Renaissance of Europe, solidified and developed in Italy.

    The Byzantine Empire under Justinian gave us the Corpus Juris Civilis (Body of Civil law) – an enormous compendium of Roman Law. Literacy was high, elementary education was widespread (even in the countryside), middle education was available to many people, and higher education was also widely accessible.

    The Byzantine Empire during this period experienced a massive creation of books – encyclopedias, lexicons, and anthologies. While they did not create much new thinking, they solidified and protected for the future much of what was already known.

    I must go to work............also, knowing that this topic requires reams of pages, and time that I do not have at my disposal.

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    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    All great civilisations record ebbs, and flows. The Byzantine Empire is no exception.

    The truth is that Europe never had a dark age.

    In fact the term “dark ages” is almost as ancient as the period itself – it was coined in the 1330s by Petrarch, the Italian scholar to refer to the decline of Latin literature.

    For contemporary students of history, the term (the dark ages) is now officially known as the Early Middle Ages.

    Classical Education was the system used by the Universities created in the Early Middle Ages. The universities taught the arts, law, medicine, and theology. The University of Bologna (founded in 1088) was the first ever to grant degrees. In addition to the classical structure (based on Ancient Greek education) these medieval universities were heavily influenced by Islamic education which was thriving at the time - viz. Moorish Spain where Muslim education became the catalyst for beginning of The Renaissance of Europe, solidified and developed in Italy.

    The Byzantine Empire under Justinian gave us the Corpus Juris Civilis (Body of Civil law) – an enormous compendium of Roman Law. Literacy was high, elementary education was widespread (even in the countryside), middle education was available to many people, and higher education was also widely accessible.

    The Byzantine Empire during this period experienced a massive creation of books – encyclopedias, lexicons, and anthologies. While they did not create much new thinking, they solidified and protected for the future much of what was already known.

    I must go to work............also, knowing that this topic requires reams of pages, and time that I do not have at my disposal.
    Again, like most terms, "dark ages" is not just, or even primary a descriptive term, but an affective one, and in that sense it is a senseless term: that is why I pointed above the difference between the affective general denomination of everything that was not Ancient or Modern, and what simply showed the decay of the general political and social life through the decay of urban civilization. The term has always been Early Middle Ages, "Dark Ages" is just another, affective one that got abused of and overextended, as usually happens with anything. I do not mean to praise either the, in some ways, equally pernicious influence of humanists, like the Petrarch you mentioned, in the course of Western thinking, but it had still been less handicapping than the influence of Bible-teaching. Mind you I talk of "Bible-teaching", by that not meaning the whole scholastic reasoning or anything related to religion, and mind you likewise, that I make a distinction between thinking in general, that is, intelligence in general, and a particular way of reasoning that may be useful and even right in a way, however rudimentary.
    According to your logic, I guess Greece can still be considered "flowering" at this very hour, considering the people who can still go to party to Mykonos or wander through the moisty wonders or Athens.

    The university taught something called "law", "medicine", blabla, but, even considering that the Ancient world was not totally free of prejudice and practices we might today consider backward (or maybe not) what EXACTLY was being taught as "medicine" back then. Heck, even shamans know "medicine". As for theology, well, theological fairytelling was precisely the source of this thread...

    The Byzantine empire did not "gave us". "We" already "had" the Roman juridical corpus, and Justinian simply took from it to shape a legal system for his own state, and that of course had influence on "us", just like Muslim traditions have, but to present that as a gift we owe to them, and as a cornerstone of Western civilization is just an exercise of revisionsim, and to present it as such is considered as just another proof of Western resentful ungratefulness. Sometimes it is also presented as a work of clarification and expurgation, as putting a mess in order when, again, it was just the shaping for their own purposes of a system of their own from a common source.

    Yeah, I must be going too in just over an hour myself, and I haven't even showered yet. It's so sunny and bright and warm out there that these dark times for the economy must be a myth too.

  23. #223
    ´


    .............. ....not funny ..

    ´
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Papst IV.jpg   Bischöfe feiern.jpg   Petzliesen im Vatikan.jpg  

  24. #224
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    This isn't really on topic, but it is funny:



    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    There was no dark age in Europe after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

    The Eastern Roman Empire continued to flourish (as, Byzantium) until its fall to Ottoman conquest in the 15th century.

    The structure of the (Catholic) church through its monasteries provided schools, universities, welfare for the poor and hospitals that today would be provided by government whereas, the king collected taxes to pay for his court's comfort and to provide for an army and avoided interfering in matters administered by the church.

    Likewise, in the Byzantine Empire the (Orthodox) church provided similar services that served the common good, leaving the emperor to focus on protecting the empire.

    The great universities of Europe were originally established as religious institutions such as Oxford University, and Paris University. According to legend Oxford university was founded in 872 when Alfred the Great happened to meet monks there and had a scholarly debate that lasted several days. In reality it grew up in the 12th century when famous teachers began to lecture there and groups of students came to live and study in the town. The university was given a boost in 1167 when, for political reasons, the English king ordered all students in France to return home continuing their education at Oxford.
    I'm with Belamo on this one. The Byzantine Empire always struck me as 'sterile' somehow. They managed a powerful economy (thanks to the traditions inherited from the zenith of Rome), but never did much to advance the sciences or philosophy. With the fall of the empire in the West, they became a superpower de facto, not through any merit of their own. Their legacy to human progress includes Hagia Sophia, and little else. For proof, look no further than its metropolises and client states, few of them would ever rise again to historical prominence (whereas nearly all Roman cities became superpowers at one point or another after the fall of Rome).

    And re-naming the Dark Ages to Early Middle Ages is a stunning act of political correctness by modern historians (talk about revisionism!). That's like saying dwarfs aren't 'short', just 'vertically challenged'. Giving something a more palatable name doesn't change the reality of things. Neither can one say Europe experienced no Dark Age because Byzantium endured. East and West embarked on separate evolutionary paths as soon as Constantine threw a bitch fit and moved the sit of power out of Europe. Also, in order for a civilization to truly become 'great', it has to experience more than 'ebbs and flows', it has to ADD to the corpus of knowledge inherited from those that came before, something that Byzantium utterly failed to do.

    PS- Kul, this one's for you :P


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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Here are a couple more.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Have all of the good pics been posted?
    I couldn't get my mind off you all day.
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  27. #227
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics



    Perfect Thynight... just perfect...
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  28. #228
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    That one's so shallow. It depicts God as an untrustworthy human, too.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  29. #229
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Did we catch this one?



    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That one's so shallow. It depicts God as an untrustworthy human, too.
    That's YHVH as a book character, too.

    As for numerals, we can always specify that we got them from the Indians THROUGH the Muslims.

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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    ^Jesus uses a lot of products.
    I couldn't get my mind off you all day.
    ~~~~ ~~

  32. #232
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by Thynight View Post
    ^Jesus uses a lot of products.
    He doesn't use them, He markets them.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  33. #233
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by Thynight View Post
    ^Jesus uses a lot of products.
    You know what they say, Jesus loves his silky, smooth legs.

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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics



    Click image for larger version. 

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    I couldn't get my mind off you all day.
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  35. #235
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    This one's awesome --



    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  36. #236
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by Thynight View Post
    This one is absolutely fantastic.
    Two journalists killed during live broadcasts by madman smothering them with pillows. Because remember, guns don't kill people....

  37. #237
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    This one is absolutely fantastic.
    I'd replace "we" with "you" and mail a copy to every Southern Baptist in the country.

    Unfortunately, most of them wouldn't get it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  38. #238
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    so close yet so far kulindahr...
    Two journalists killed during live broadcasts by madman smothering them with pillows. Because remember, guns don't kill people....

  39. #239
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    so close yet so far kulindahr...
    You think I should have included the National Association of Evangelicals, too? Not a bad thought, actually.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  40. #240
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    …keep going……aaaaaalmost there….
    Two journalists killed during live broadcasts by madman smothering them with pillows. Because remember, guns don't kill people....

  41. #241
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails sack043012[1].jpg  

    Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day.
    Give a man religion, and he'll starve praying for a fish.

  42. #242
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by looseliam View Post
    Priceless!

    I laughed so hard my computer fell off my lap.

    If you ever happen through NW Oregon, I owe you a beer.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Here are a few more. Some may not fit 100% with the theme here, but I thought they were close enough.



    Click image for larger version. 

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    I couldn't get my mind off you all day.
    ~~~~ ~~

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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I couldn't get my mind off you all day.
    ~~~~ ~~

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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I couldn't get my mind off you all day.
    ~~~~ ~~

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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I couldn't get my mind off you all day.
    ~~~~ ~~

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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Lastly, one of my favorite sites. It has some great pictures.

    Selected Bible passages illustrated with Lego blocks.
    The Brick Testament
    I couldn't get my mind off you all day.
    ~~~~ ~~

  48. #248
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by BENDERBOY View Post
    Okay, this one gave me a good belly laugh.

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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by Thynight View Post
    Here are a few more. Some may not fit 100% with the theme here, but I thought they were close enough.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    There should be a tornado up above, descending to devour any who approach.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  50. #250
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: Funny anti-religious Internet pics

    Quote Originally Posted by Thynight View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The Santa one has a HUGE fallacy going. The "ta-daa" one is more ignorance. The last one . . .

    is brilliant!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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