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  1. #201
    Huntneo(PT)
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Except the dispatcher did not give him a lawful order, because he wasn't able to. In the eyes of the law, it was a suggestion that holds no legal weight.
    Sure, it wasn't a 'lawful order', but like I said--it will be a very important part of this case. And it will lead to Zimmerman's downfall when he tries to repeatedly pull the self-defense line. His actions led to this supposed 'confrontation'...

    either way, this is going to cost him. His life will never be the same.

    That dispatcher told him the one thing that could have saved his ass, but he chose to ignore it. He will pay for
    not following that 'suggestion'.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    To add to what Mitch said - non-violent people aren't likely to use a gun even if they have one and are threatened. There's a strong chance that gun will be forcefully taken from them in a violent situation and used against them. Not to mention naturally aggressive people who are not criminals but given a weapon in their hands would be trigger happy and seeking a chance to use it. Kuli himself said Americans are more violent than Europeans. So shouldn't it be the other way around then? Guns in Europe, where people are mature and calm enough not to use them, and no guns here when every other redneck wants to prove what a tough man he is?

  3. #203
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntneo(PT) View Post
    Sure, it wasn't a 'lawful order', but like I said--it will be a very important part of this case. And it will lead to Zimmerman's downfall when he tries to repeatedly pull the self-defense line. His actions led to this supposed 'confrontation'...
    I think it depends on whether his actions would simply be regarded as foolish.

    Can he be charged with murder, if Trayvon assaulted him in self defence, or will this be regarded as provocation for the shooting?

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    In all liklihood, there wouldn't have been a confrontation if it wasn't for the existance of STY. Furthermore, in a case where there lacks evidence, you cannot disprove its applicability.
    Nonsense. Zimmerman would have initiated a confrontation regardless.

  5. #205
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Nonsense. Zimmerman would have initiated a confrontation regardless.
    That is far more speculative than the statement which I made. Furthermore, Zimmerman would be in jail right now.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Statistics would show, that in the first 2-3yrs of Chigago introducing strict gun regulations, crime actually fell. This didn't last. The reason for that is obvious. When you have an entire nation of guns, and one city regulates, it attracts criminal activity from outside of the city as well as from criminals within becoming more brazen. Then, when regulation was taken away, the drop in crime reflects those who have no easy target anymore.
    Location specific controls don't work well. Either the whole state is subject to the regulations, or no part is.
    Yeah, no. The statistics show no such thing. The handgun ban in Chicago had NO effect on crime in the city whatsoever.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    That is far more speculative than the statement which I made. Furthermore, Zimmerman would be in jail right now.
    You are speculating that SYG was the cause for the confrontation, while the evidence wholly contradicts that.

  8. #208
    mitchymo
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    You are speculating that SYG was the cause for the confrontation, while the evidence wholly contradicts that.
    That is not what i am speculating. I am pointing out a basic principle of criminal law here, that guilt rests on 3 factors, intent, motivation and means.

    SYG plays an instrumental part in the 'means' aspect of this case.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    That is not what i am speculating. I am pointing out a basic principle of criminal law here, that guilt rests on 3 factors, intent, motivation and means.

    SYG plays an instrumental part in the 'means' aspect of this case.
    That isn't what you said:

    In all liklihood, there wouldn't have been a confrontation if it wasn't for the existance of STY
    You are saying that without this law, there wouldn't have been a confrontation. Given this individual's past behavior, that is purely speculation on your part. It has nothing to do with the bolded part of your post.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I think it depends on whether his actions would simply be regarded as foolish.

    Can he be charged with murder, if Trayvon assaulted him in self defence, or will this be regarded as provocation for the shooting?
    If Trayvon acted in self-defense, Zimmerman is sunk.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    You are saying that without this law, there wouldn't have been a confrontation. Given this individual's past behavior, that is purely speculation on your part. It has nothing to do with the bolded part of your post.
    I'd say there would have been a confrontation anyway. Zimmerman had a hundred pounds of body weight on Martin, and was plainly determined to intercept this "suspicious" kid. Given that neighbors had already complained about his behavior, I can't see where not having a gun would have made him back off.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'd say there would have been a confrontation anyway. Zimmerman had a hundred pounds of body weight on Martin, and was plainly determined to intercept this "suspicious" kid. Given that neighbors had already complained about his behavior, I can't see where not having a gun would have made him back off.
    That's what I'm saying too. But Mitch seems to think that the only reason why Zimmerman decided to follow the kid was because of Stand Your Ground, and he wouldn't have done it without the law being there.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    That's what I'm saying too. But Mitch seems to think that the only reason why Zimmerman decided to follow the kid was because of Stand Your Ground, and he wouldn't have done it without the law being there.
    It probably would have been a different kind of confrontation, is all.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #214
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager



    Any JUBbers in the Chicago area tomorrow? Come on down!

    ...with history the final judge of our deeds. - JFK

  15. #215
    mitchymo
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    You are saying that without this law, there wouldn't have been a confrontation. Given this individual's past behavior, that is purely speculation on your part. It has nothing to do with the bolded part of your post.
    You clearly didn't read my post properly. I said "in all liklihood". I DID NOT say 'wouldn't', there is a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    That's what I'm saying too. But Mitch seems to think that the only reason why Zimmerman decided to follow the kid was because of Stand Your Ground, and he wouldn't have done it without the law being there.
    Again, that is not what i think. I think SYG played a significant part in the 'means' part of the crime. Having a gun contributes to that also. Whether he still would have followed without these 'means', is pure speculation, but v
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It probably would have been a different kind of confrontation, is all.
    Exactly. Trayvon probably wouldn't be dead.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post


    Any JUBbers in the Chicago area tomorrow? Come on down!
    Damn, wish I could be there.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    I've been having a very hard time understanding the public outrage over this. Is it sad, yes? But here we have a law which says that you're allowed to use force if you fear physical harm. There is nothing in the law saying you can't go looking for trouble, which people have decided Zimmerman did. Did he fear for his physical health? Witnesses have said they saw Martin beating Zimmerman, and Zimmerman was found at the scene with cuts on the back of his head, a busted nose, and his clothing showing evidence of rolling around on the ground. There is no hard evidence saying that this wasn't self-defense.

    Whatever happened to being innocent until proven guilty? It's times like this that I really hate the media. Yes, it's wonderful that stories get brought to light so we can see what's wrong with this nation, but at the same time it really brings out what's wrong with this nation. A $10,000 bounty on his head? People posting pictures of him on facebook saying "Each like is 100 punches"? The public have already destroyed this man's life. Did he do something wrong? Yes, but according to the court of law, he's fully innocent until proven otherwise.

  18. #218
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Non-violent people aren't likely to use a gun even if they have one and are threatened... ...Not to mention naturally aggressive people who are not criminals but given a weapon in their hands would be trigger happy and seeking a chance to use it.
    A significant amount of research has been done on the psychology of bearing a weapon.

    When you slip behind the wheel of a car, your brain automatically begins to think about places you can drive, and how to get there.

    When someone hands you a basketball, your brain automatically begins looking for hoops at which to shoot, and calculating the best angles to get the ball through.

    When someone puts a gun in your hand, your brain automatically begins looking for things to shoot.

    The mere presence of a gun changes the way people think. It changes the dynamic of conflict resolution. An armed person is far more likely to confront those around him aggressively. An unarmed person is far more likely to try to withdraw. That is, in fact, why Florida law used to require that armed persons at least attempt to withdraw from dangerous situations. Paradoxically, SYG encourages confrontation among those who are most able and likely to do harm.

    If George Zimmerman had not chosen to carry a firearm, he would not likely have pursued Trayvon Martin, especially after he was told not to. If George Zimmerman had not chosen to carry a firearem, both he and Trayvon Martin would be alive today.


    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Nonsense. Zimmerman would have initiated a confrontation regardless.
    Maybe. But, SYG encourages confrontation, not withdrawal. Before SYG, Zimmerman would have been legally obligated to try to withdraw. If SYG was not law in Florida, Zimmerman would be in jail at least for breaking the law by initiating a confrontation, if not for killing another human being.

  19. #219
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Exactly. Trayvon probably wouldn't be dead.
    I'm thinking that SYG should be implemented as an addition to concealed carry, requiring its own class in conflict avoidance and tactics. The intent of the law was never to enable vigilantes, but to allow citizens to fight back when there was no other choice evident. A guy who outweighs a kid by a hundred pounds can't possibly be in much danger unless that kid is either a high-ranking martial arts student or is carrying something potentially lethal like a baseball bat or ski poles or such.

    Tonight I listened to the guy's friends or neighbors or whoever they were who got interviewed. My gut feeling is they're flat out lying, even though I can't think of a motive for that. And I'm positive that racist, incompetent scrag band calling itself a police department is lying.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Damn, wish I could be there.
    Me, too. I'd wear my Life Member NRA cap with gold braid and my NRA jacket with its Endowment Member patch. That would attract attention, so if I got lucky I could chew out Wayne LaPierre on national television.

    BTW, I agree with LaPierre that an armed society is a polite society. But getting from here to there can be a bloody bloody mess if it isn't done right.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #221
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    A significant amount of research has been done on the psychology of bearing a weapon.

    When you slip behind the wheel of a car, your brain automatically begins to think about places you can drive, and how to get there.

    When someone hands you a basketball, your brain automatically begins looking for hoops at which to shoot, and calculating the best angles to get the ball through.

    When someone puts a gun in your hand, your brain automatically begins looking for things to shoot.
    That doesn't fit anyone I've ever known who has firearms and shoots anywhere near regularly. The first thing that comes to my mind when I strap on a sidearm is the sincere hope and prayer that everyone around me that day will stay civilized, so I won't even have to think about touching it. The next is the need for constant vigilance to make sure no one else gains control of my weapon. The third is the immense responsibility I'm assuming for the safety of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The mere presence of a gun changes the way people think. It changes the dynamic of conflict resolution. An armed person is far more likely to confront those around him aggressively. An unarmed person is far more likely to try to withdraw. That is, in fact, why Florida law used to require that armed persons at least attempt to withdraw from dangerous situations. Paradoxically, SYG encourages confrontation among those who are most able and likely to do harm.
    Sure it changes the way people think. But the only people it will make aggressive are the ones who want to be aggressive anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Maybe. But, SYG encourages confrontation, not withdrawal. Before SYG, Zimmerman would have been legally obligated to try to withdraw. If SYG was not law in Florida, Zimmerman would be in jail at least for breaking the law by initiating a confrontation, if not for killing another human being.
    I wonder if SYG negated the principle of non-escalation, too.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #222
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    A significant amount of research has been done on the psychology of bearing a weapon.

    When you slip behind the wheel of a car, your brain automatically begins to think about places you can drive, and how to get there.

    When someone hands you a basketball, your brain automatically begins looking for hoops at which to shoot, and calculating the best angles to get the ball through.

    When someone puts a gun in your hand, your brain automatically begins looking for things to shoot.

    The mere presence of a gun changes the way people think. It changes the dynamic of conflict resolution. An armed person is far more likely to confront those around him aggressively. An unarmed person is far more likely to try to withdraw. That is, in fact, why Florida law used to require that armed persons at least attempt to withdraw from dangerous situations. Paradoxically, SYG encourages confrontation among those who are most able and likely to do harm.

    If George Zimmerman had not chosen to carry a firearm, he would not likely have pursued Trayvon Martin, especially after he was told not to. If George Zimmerman had not chosen to carry a firearem, both he and Trayvon Martin would be alive today.




    Maybe. But, SYG encourages confrontation, not withdrawal. Before SYG, Zimmerman would have been legally obligated to try to withdraw. If SYG was not law in Florida, Zimmerman would be in jail at least for breaking the law by initiating a confrontation, if not for killing another human being.
    THAT!

    I am surprised Kuli didn't reply to it. That's how I view it, that's how the rest of the Western world views it. The cowboys here though grew up thinking not having a gun emasculates them somehow...


    Edit: Ah, he did. Sorry, those are very vague answers. And I don't see why you're defending HIS point - yes, violent people would be even more prone to violence, especially with laws that encourage them to seek confrontation. That's an argument AGAINST gun possession, not FOR it.

    So far I haven't seen a decent argument explaining why having a gun is BETTER than not having one and how the present gun laws are making America a safer place than the UK for example.

    I repeat - a gun is a weapon for killing things or dealing serious and often permanent damage to them. It's not a tazer, it's not a pepper spray. It maims and kills. You do not need an instrument of murder to defend yourself. You need an instrument of defense to defend yourself. You need an instrument of murder to commit murder.

    It's really THAT simple.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Maybe. But, SYG encourages confrontation, not withdrawal. Before SYG, Zimmerman would have been legally obligated to try to withdraw. If SYG was not law in Florida, Zimmerman would be in jail at least for breaking the law by initiating a confrontation, if not for killing another human being.
    You're stretching a bit there. Just following someone or saying something is not enough to be charged with anything. If Zimmerman laid a hand on him first, yes, he would be charged. But if he was swung at by TW, he wouldn't. (granted, this is all theoretical. But SYG no more encourages confrontation than any one of us being alive does)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    SYG gives you incentive to not shy away from it. Combine that with confrontational urges and it is exactly an encouragement for confrontation. Which would be fine if you had a pepper spray as your only weapon as I said in my edit above.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That doesn't fit anyone I've ever known who has firearms and shoots anywhere near regularly.
    Just because you have anecdotal alternative impressions does not change what we know of human psychology.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The first thing that comes to my mind when I strap on a sidearm is the sincere hope and prayer that everyone around me that day will stay civilized, so I won't even have to think about touching it. The next is the need for constant vigilance to make sure no one else gains control of my weapon. The third is the immense responsibility I'm assuming for the safety of others.
    In other words, you have to exert quite an effort to think about your gun and not do something stupid with it.

    That's exactly my point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I wonder if SYG negated the principle of non-escalation, too.
    Obviously, it does. Under SYG, there is no such thing as escalation - only increasingly necessary means of "self-defense."

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    You're stretching a bit there. Just following someone or saying something is not enough to be charged with anything. If Zimmerman laid a hand on him first, yes, he would be charged. But if he was swung at by TW, he wouldn't. (granted, this is all theoretical. But SYG no more encourages confrontation than any one of us being alive does)
    Sure it does, for a small portion of the population. They're the kind who think they're tough and go strutting about as though they're superior (even if only mentally). Let them out with a gun, they'll think they have reason to believe they're tough; give them reason to think they can be rude, offensive, and aggressive and believe they can fall back on their firearm if things get rough, and confrontation is encouraged.

    I consider these people extra terrestrials -- terrestrials we could really do without. But there's no way of screening for them unless you want a government-paid program to use personality tests and such.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    SYG gives you incentive to not shy away from it. Combine that with confrontational urges and it is exactly an encouragement for confrontation. Which would be fine if you had a pepper spray as your only weapon as I said in my edit above.
    Pepper spray just makes some people mad. There was a guy in the area here who almost got killed after pepper spraying a guy, not too far back.

    A taser is nice, but when cops came to my mom's place last year to evict a squatter from my RV, he assaulted and injured one in spite of having those barbs in him, discharging. Then they had to get him medical attention when the second cop hit him with an additional taser.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Just because you have anecdotal alternative impressions does not change what we know of human psychology.
    Since I have no knowledge of any such study, and since I've gone shooting with dozens of people, sure it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    In other words, you have to exert quite an effort to think about your gun and not do something stupid with it.

    That's exactly my point.
    That's your imagination at work. Even when I go out shooting, I have to make myself choose a target. I have no desire to just shoot things, and I've never had any desire to do "something stupid" with it -- nor, again, have any of the people I've ever shot with. I have to have a rational reason to shoot something.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Obviously, it does. Under SYG, there is no such thing as escalation - only increasingly necessary means of "self-defense."
    If the law doesn't state so, then it doesn't nullify the non-escalation principle.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  29. #229
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    ^ I would link you to the scientific studies, but I have observed that science makes no impression on you, when it comes to guns.

    This is a religion for you, and your god does not respond to evidence, reason, scholarship, or data.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Even when I go out shooting, I have to make myself choose a target. I have no desire to just shoot things...
    If you have no desire to "just shoot things," why do you go out and shoot at targets in the first place?

  30. #230
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Pepper spray just makes some people mad. There was a guy in the area here who almost got killed after pepper spraying a guy, not too far back.

    A taser is nice, but when cops came to my mom's place last year to evict a squatter from my RV, he assaulted and injured one in spite of having those barbs in him, discharging. Then they had to get him medical attention when the second cop hit him with an additional taser.
    It fascinates me that someone as intelligent as you doesn't see how you're contradicting yourself. Yet again what you say are arguments FOR more gun control. Do you notice the difference between your examples and the one this topic is built on? Let me give you a hint - yours lack fatalities. You seem to just accept it as a starting point that fatalities are ok in a confrontation if you should be threatened. I do not.


    I am still waiting for a relevant argument FOR gun laws and comparison with Europe. I refuse to accept the idea that people in Europe are somehow magically different and therefore a comparison is impossible.

  31. #231
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    In the "quite interesting" department, I just paid a visit to the NRA website, where as an Endowment Member I intended to make my opinion known. But every time I tried to leave a message on the legislative page, all I got was messages about technical difficulties.

    Maybe they're getting swamped by irate members?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    ^ I would link you to the scientific studies, but I have observed that science makes no impression on you, when it comes to guns.

    This is a religion for you, and your god does not respond to evidence, reason, scholarship, or data.
    Science definitely makes an impression. But most of the anti-gun stuff people link to is trash science, flawed in methodology.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    If you have no desire to "just shoot things," why do you go out and shoot at targets in the first place?
    Practice. Why else? That, and to exercise a skill.

    Do you think people play golf because they have some desire to hit things? or to knock things into holes?
    Do people take driving lessons because they have a desire to race about like madmen everywhere?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  33. #233
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It fascinates me that someone as intelligent as you doesn't see how you're contradicting yourself. Yet again what you say are arguments FOR more gun control. Do you notice the difference between your examples and the one this topic is built on? Let me give you a hint - yours lack fatalities. You seem to just accept it as a starting point that fatalities are ok in a confrontation if you should be threatened. I do not.
    How irrational! The failure of the things you want to replace guns is an argument FOR gun control?

    Guns stop the threat. Pepper spray and tasers do not do so dependably.

    If you don't think fatalities are okay, that's fine for you. But since I own my life, not you, it's my choice of how to protect it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I am still waiting for a relevant argument FOR gun laws and comparison with Europe. I refuse to accept the idea that people in Europe are somehow magically different and therefore a comparison is impossible.
    The relevant argument is that it's a right. That European countries are deficient in human rights is not something I'm going to bother myself with.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  34. #234
    JohannBessler
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Yeah, no. The statistics show no such thing. The handgun ban in Chicago had NO effect on crime in the city whatsoever.
    As we have previously discussed, neither handguns, nor handgun laws, have any significant effect on crime.

    I think that has been pretty conclusively proven.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    How irrational! The failure of the things you want to replace guns is an argument FOR gun control?

    Guns stop the threat. Pepper spray and tasers do not do so dependably.

    If you don't think fatalities are okay, that's fine for you. But since I own my life, not you, it's my choice of how to protect it.
    Not when your choice of protection leads to someone else's death. Then you are infringing on someone else's rights (I know how much you love talking about rights). Guns stop the threat by KILLING A PERSON. An argument can't get more absurd than that. This is vigilante territory - taking the law into your own hands. And if you trust yourself to be all moral and mature about it, I do not know you, and it horrifies me that I have to trust you too. And what's worse - I have to also trust that every simpleminded, drunk, homophobic, violent redneck I may end up stumbling upon by accident would share your thoughtfulness and won't kill me for fun just because he happens to be in a bad/crazy mood and has a gun available.

    I am sorry, but you really aren't making sense here. Yes, the other means are flawed. They are flawed in that they are NOT FINAL. Most aggressors will stop at the threat of being tazed or sprayed the same way as by the threat of a gun.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The relevant argument is that it's a right. That European countries are deficient in human rights is not something I'm going to bother myself with.
    I'm just going to calmly call Wild West bullshit on that. I am not even going to bother checking whether it is defined anywhere as a right. the very idea that you have a right to a lethal weapon is about half a step behind the idea that you have a right to shoot people you don't like.

    And it is also a very immature way of answering my question. I ask for valid reasons, not debatable morality and "rights". If you don't want to offer any such reasons, I'll just have to accept that you really are not logical about this issue as was suggested by someone earlier in this page, and calmly step back before I get shot...

  36. #236
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Here's a link I think y'all would be interested in. It is things everyone should know about Treyvon. It has links to just about anything that happened since the murder.

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...tin-1995-2012/

    What Everyone Should Know About Trayvon Martin (1995-2012)

    By Judd Legum on Mar 18, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    On February 26, 2012, a 17-year-old African-American named Trayvon Martin was shot and killed in Sanford, Florida. The shooter was George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old white man. (Zimmerman was described by the police as white. According to his family he is also Hispanic.) Zimmerman admits killing Martin, but claims he was acting in self-defense. Weeks after Martin’s death, no arrest has been made and Zimmerman remains free.

    Here is what everyone should know about the case:
    Last edited by White Eagle; March 26th, 2012 at 09:53 AM. Reason: stuff
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  37. #237
    mitchymo
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The intent of the law was never to enable vigilantes, but to allow citizens to fight back when there was no other choice evident.
    This is a bullshit argument, sorry kuli .
    This argument is ridiculous, that this law, supposedly affords people the right to not walk away from a threat, when they COULD, in order to protect them when there is NOTHING else that they can do (i.e., COULDN'T get away). Can you see the hypocrisy there?
    Then SYG is a completely unnecessary law, since if you cannot distance yourself from a threat, you have a right to self defence anyway. All that SYG does, is give people the protection of law that allows them not to keep the peace. Its a law that favours the crook, the dumbass's, and the irresponsible.

    A guy who outweighs a kid by a hundred pounds can't possibly be in much danger unless that kid is either a high-ranking martial arts student or is carrying something potentially lethal like a baseball bat or ski poles or such.
    You can't make the assumption that someone, 'can't possibly', be threatened by someone half their size and age. The mentality of those involved is just as important as the physicality.


    If you don't think fatalities are okay, that's fine for you. But since I own my life, not you, it's my choice of how to protect it.
    Even at the cost of other innocent lives? That is not the attitude of somebody who respects the right to life.

    The relevant argument is that it's a rights abuse.
    There, thats better.
    That European countries are deficient in human rights is not something I'm going to bother myself with.
    Europe is deficient? Then why is the US the one that is sick?

  38. #238
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    The law in Florida lets people take the law into their own hands, and at that point it's an irrational law and there is no legal defense of it. We can't have a bunch of vigilantes in this country with guns anymore... something has to change. Gun rights need to be restricted. And frivolous laws like the one in Florida need to be removed immediately.

  39. #239
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    … this law, supposedly affords people the right to not walk away from a threat, when they COULD, in order to protect them when there is NOTHING else that they can do (i.e., COULDN'T get away).
    Under the castle doctrine, homeowners are not required to flee from someone who is threatening them at the place of their residence. The doctrine allows them to remain in place and defend themselves, to perhaps include the use of deadly force.*

    Should the homeowner be required to exit the premises, rather than remain in place and attempt to protect their life or the lives of other members of their family?

    The point of my question is to determine if you think there is any circumstance in which a person may justifiably use deadly force – even though he/she may have a reasonable opportunity to escape from someone who appears intent to inflict serious physical/bodily harm.


    *(The principle may be variable with regard to specific circumstances or applications, according to laws in each respective jurisdiction.)

  40. #240
    mitchymo
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Under the castle doctrine, homeowners are not required to flee from someone who is threatening them at the place of their residence. The doctrine allows them to remain in place and defend themselves, to perhaps include the use of deadly force.*

    Should the homeowner be required to exit the premises, rather than remain in place and attempt to protect their life or the lives of other members of their family?
    We don't have a castle doctrine here. Homeowners are advised to put their safety first and call police, but, as an englishmans home is his castle, we are well within our rights to fight back. There doesn't need to be a written guideline for that, certainly not one that gives permission for you to kill someone who is a percieved threat. We don't permit the taking of life, and we don't justify it beforehand. If someone kills in self defence, and its pretty rare, the courts, and police, and public are sympathetic, and justice will be done. Normally it involves no charges being pressed. In the UK, when bad things happen, that may not have happened if the victim had a gun to defend themselves, it is a tragedy, but, in the US, when someone is killed because someone has abused their so-called 'right' to defend themselves (with a gun), that is a shame. And when people support guns, they are aiding that shame.


    The point of my question is to determine if you think there is any circumstance in which a person may justifiably use deadly force – even though he/she may have a reasonable opportunity to escape from someone who appears intent to inflict serious physical/bodily harm.
    If there is a reasonable opportunity to escape, then that is the option to take. If that option doesn't exist, deadly force is acceptable, if, and only if, there is a high probability of losing your own life. 'He had a knife and was threatening me with it whilst he robbed my house' would NEVER stand up in court. 'he hit me' would not stand up in court. 'I thought i was going to die' would not stand up in court. 'He punched me several times in the face and knocked me to the floor, and was about to hit me with an iron, when i grabbed a knife and stabbed him' probably would.
    The kinds of incidents that castle doctrine and SYG are leading to, is pure abuse of the law. Thats not to say there are no genuine cases, perhaps even the majority ARE. But there is far too much abuse, and that cannot be impacted upon without making a small sacrifice, banning handguns, or at least a step in the right direction, banning these associated laws.
    Since SYG was adopted in Florida, there have been around 130 cases involving SYG. Over 70% of those involved a fatality. 28 of those had evidence to suggest that foul play may have been involved, and indeed, 19 of those cases taken before the courts resulted in a homicide conviction. What about the other 9? Were they innocent, or lacked strong evidence? What about the 20+ that didn't get to court at all? Clear-cut 'justifiable', or evidence non-existant?

    What good is it to the people, to diagnose abuse, after the fact? The abuse happens, some responsibility should be taken to prevent it from happening again, not simply brush a high profile incident associated with SYG to the side by arguing how bad Zimmerman or racism is, when there is an opportunity to minimise the risk to the next Trayvon, by eradicating this moronic notion that guns do more good than harm. Not even 100,000 people being saved from a beating is worth as much as one innocent life.

  41. #241
    JohannBessler
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    ^ He's a good person who doesn't understand the dynamics of the situation.

  42. #242
    mitchymo
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Elaborate???

  43. #243
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    I don't believe people have the training to make the decisions when it comes to SYG. In other words, SYG essentially allows the creation of vigilantism. it's just a very over broad law. Another description for an overbroad law is one that is vague.

    http://www.rotlaw.com/legal-library/...-or-overbroad/

    Vagueness is generally considered to be a due process issue, because a law that is too vague to understand does not provide adequate notice to people that a certain behavior is required or is unacceptable.
    I believe that SYG is too vague and should be under review. I haven't seen a legal justification for it. Trayvon never posed a threat to Zimmerman. And now they are going after Trayvon's reputation with trumped up stories about trace amounts of marijuana found in his school bag. That's completely immaterial to the fact that he was gunned down in cold blood. He was pleading for his life and trying to avoid a confrontation.

    The blood is not just on Zimmerman's hands here... but also those who created the incredibly vague law in Florida. Lets hope Rick Scott has some sense in his mind (which I doubt), and reviews the law. Scott is another conservative nutjob that will probably come up with a weak defense of this Jeb Bush era law.

  44. #244

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Here's a link I think y'all would be interested in. It is things everyone should know about Treyvon. It has links to just about anything that happened since the murder.

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...tin-1995-2012/
    Here's some more info you should know ....

    He was staying with his father's girlfriend because he had been suspended from school for possession of a bag that had traces of marijuana in it.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...t-trayvon.html

    Trayvon's mother has applied for two trademarks of her son's name. Not you usual way to morn a child who has been killed

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/tr...ademark?page=0

    Former NAACP chapter president, "C. L. Bryant is accussing Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton of "exploiting" theTrayvon Martin tradegy to "racially divide this country.""

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/fo...rayvon-martin/

    It's time for everyone to chill and let justice take it's course. It's one of the things that makes the USA special.

  45. #245
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    This is a bullshit argument, sorry kuli .
    This argument is ridiculous, that this law, supposedly affords people the right to not walk away from a threat, when they COULD, in order to protect them when there is NOTHING else that they can do (i.e., COULDN'T get away). Can you see the hypocrisy there?
    Really? Check the debate in the Florida legislature. Ask the guys who wrote the law. Frak, even ask Wayne LaPierre, who was ectstatic about passage of the law!

    The law used to require people to run away even if it would get them killed, at least outside their own homes. The point of this was that if they couldn't get away safely, they no longer had to run and expose themselves to assault, possibly lethal.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Then SYG is a completely unnecessary law, since if you cannot distance yourself from a threat, you have a right to self defence anyway. All that SYG does, is give people the protection of law that allows them not to keep the peace. Its a law that favours the crook, the dumbass's, and the irresponsible.
    Without the SYG, you MIGHT have a self-defense plea, but you'd sit in jail and have massive bail to get loose.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    You can't make the assumption that someone, 'can't possibly', be threatened by someone half their size and age. The mentality of those involved is just as important as the physicality.
    I already gave the qualifiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Even at the cost of other innocent lives? That is not the attitude of somebody who respects the right to life.
    Absolutely it is -- it doesn't make everyone prey to those who want to do violence. And there's no intent to take innocent lives -- if you want to argue that, we may as well make everyone go naked and not allow anything pointed or weighting more than maybe a half pound.

    Think of it as evolution in action.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    There, thats better.
    You always want to decrease liberty. Decreasing liberty does not reduce safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Europe is deficient? Then why is the US the one that is sick?
    They're both sick -- just with different diseases.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  46. #246
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    It's completely immaterial to this case about what they found in his bag. Trace amounts of marijuana isn't justification for what Zimmerman did.

    Trayvon's mother may be creating a foundation for her son. Simple as that. A sort of legal foundation.

    Why are you telling us to chill? What is so special here about what is going on? You've seen such a major failure at the local level that the local police chief has had to step aside. Local justice has been mishandled, so I hope the DOJ and FBI can find a way to intervene in this case and make it a federal case (which they would have to prove that the attack was based on racist motives).

    This country has failed Trayvon legally. And this country is definitely suffering... someone said Europe is deficient. If that's the case, this country is far beyond help and suffering from a serious cancer in comparison. Certain people, myself included, are anti-gun. That doesn't mean they are anti-liberty.

  47. #247
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The law in Florida lets people take the law into their own hands, and at that point it's an irrational law and there is no legal defense of it. We can't have a bunch of vigilantes in this country with guns anymore... something has to change. Gun rights need to be restricted. And frivolous laws like the one in Florida need to be removed immediately.
    No, it only makes people think that. All the hype in the press about the law was "You don't have to run away! Shoot if you feel threatened!" But that isn't what the law says, nor is it the intent.

    It would have been ironic justice if someone who heard Martin's calls for help had seen Zimmerman attacking someone much smaller -- and shot Zimmerman.

    All that's needed is for the Florida legislature to pass a resolution -- it doesn't even have to be a new law -- restating the purpose and what isn't the purpose of the law. Though if I had my druthers, all concealed carry license holders would be required to take a "Stand Your Ground" class on how to resolve things peacefully, and the line when peacefulness could be abandoned.

    Zimmerman wasn't even on the same planet as a legitimate application of the law.

    It occurs to me that the writers of the law (the outline came from Wayne LaPierre and his friends) made a very basic mistake with legislation: they assumed everyone understood the subject the way they did. This time their mistake cost a life.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  48. #248
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Should the homeowner be required to exit the premises, rather than remain in place and attempt to protect their life or the lives of other members of their family?

    The point of my question is to determine if you think there is any circumstance in which a person may justifiably use deadly force – even though he/she may have a reasonable opportunity to escape from someone who appears intent to inflict serious physical/bodily harm.
    You already answered it: if there are other lives at stake, the citizen shouldn't be required to withdraw if he's their defense -- and that should apply to place of business, too.

    But defensive shooting in public spaces -- street, park, mall -- is an entirely different thing. It takes more thorough tactical thinking, for starters. I seriously think anyone wanting to carry in public should have to take a tactical defense class for public spaces.

    And at the moment, that would disqualify me; I've had a general defensive tactics class, but it didn't focus much on public situations.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  49. #249
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, it only makes people think that. All the hype in the press about the law was "You don't have to run away! Shoot if you feel threatened!" But that isn't what the law says, nor is it the intent.
    Actually, that's not true. It is basically what the overbroad law says. The law should be challenged on its merits and thrown out because it meets exactly the definition of what I said. It's a vague law and it has no justification.

    It would have been ironic justice if someone who heard Martin's calls for help had seen Zimmerman attacking someone much smaller -- and shot Zimmerman.
    But it didn't happen that way, and the boy was murdered.

    All that's needed is for the Florida legislature to pass a resolution -- it doesn't even have to be a new law -- restating the purpose and what isn't the purpose of the law. Though if I had my druthers, all concealed carry license holders would be required to take a "Stand Your Ground" class on how to resolve things peacefully, and the line when peacefulness could be abandoned.
    If they don't do that, I still think the law can be challenged on its merit as being too vague. See even you admit that there needs to be a revision of the law. My problem is with these "stand your ground" laws is they allow too many uneducated people to take the law into their own hands.

    In other words, they may not even read the law... but only see "stand your ground" and make an interpretation.

    they assumed everyone understood the subject the way they did. This time their mistake cost a life.
    This is exactly my problem with the law. It's too vague and it doesn't make clear definitions.

  50. #250
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    It's completely immaterial to this case about what they found in his bag. Trace amounts of marijuana isn't justification for what Zimmerman did.
    Even right-wing elephangelical prophet Pat Robertson would agree with that -- he says legalize the stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Trayvon's mother may be creating a foundation for her son. Simple as that. A sort of legal foundation.
    Bingo. And as this case is going to head up the ladder, she may be thinking about legal expenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Why are you telling us to chill? What is so special here about what is going on? You've seen such a major failure at the local level that the local police chief has had to step aside. Local justice has been mishandled, so I hope the DOJ and FBI can find a way to intervene in this case and make it a federal case (which they would have to prove that the attack was based on racist motives).
    Bullseye. My bet is the local chief resigned because he wants to be out of the wa, and hopefully not get pegged for the racist, corrupt, incompetent jerk he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    This country has failed Trayvon legally. And this country is definitely suffering... someone said Europe is deficient. If that's the case, this country is far beyond help and suffering from a serious cancer in comparison. Certain people, myself included, are anti-gun. That doesn't mean they are anti-liberty.
    If you deny my right to defend myself as I choose, you make me into easy prey. That's anti-liberty.

    But that doesn't even apply here. The information given in this thread is enough to know that Zimmerman wasn't defending, he was attacking. There is no right to attack. He's a murderer, plain and simple.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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