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  1. #201
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Trayvon was tested for Drugs after his killing.....He had no Drugs in his system...Zimmermans Sharks have every right to try and paint a picture of Trayvon but his suspension from school is the best they got...They WISH they had more but they don't...Next the Sharks will go after Travon's Parents...

    George Zimmerman has an arrest record for assaulting a Law officer and his wife...The charges were thrown out for various reasons but he is the one with the Police-record on file....There's enough on Zimmerman to prove he's a Self-appointed-Night watchman-Cop-wanna-be Gone MAD...

    George can claim to Cry every day over the shooting but I still don't believe Trayvon followed him and attacked him...The 911 call tells a different story.....

    George has a history of Violence and if you're bold enough to put your hands on a Law-Officer & your Spouse then you're certainly bold enough to put your hands on a random stranger...

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMajestic View Post
    Trayvon was tested for Drugs after his killing.....He had no Drugs in his system...Zimmermans Sharks have every right to try and paint a picture of Trayvon but his suspension from school is the best they got...They WISH they had more but they don't...Next the Sharks will go after Travon's Parents...

    George Zimmerman has an arrest record for assaulting a Law officer and his wife...The charges were thrown out for various reasons but he is the one with the Police-record on file....There's enough on Zimmerman to prove he's a Self-appointed-Night watchman-Cop-wanna-be Gone MAD...

    George can claim to Cry every day over the shooting but I still don't believe Trayvon followed him and attacked him...The 911 call tells a different story.....

    George has a history of Violence and if you're bold enough to put your hands on a Law-Officer & your Spouse then you're certainly bold enough to put your hands on a random stranger...
    "Zimmerman" is a monster, a criminal and a thug. Do you want a laugh? "Zimmerman" was trying to become a police officer, despite his waistline and criminal past.

    People who mention Martin's suspension from school are the same people that say women deserved to be raped because of the way they dress.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    "Zimmerman" is a monster, a criminal and a thug. Do you want a laugh? "Zimmerman" was trying to become a police officer, despite his waistline and criminal past.

    People who mention Martin's suspension from school are the same people that say women deserved to be raped because of the way they dress.
    To the point of obsession...I mean he's been TRYING hard and making connections but nothing panned out...

    I know one guy that would have given his left arm to become a Cop but his health issues put an end to his dream. To this day he is bitter about it...And he's originally from Florida...LOL...Must be something in the Oranges down there?

    Zimmerman must have sat in his car at the Club House daily being Angry at everything..Zimmerman's Family & friends don't even realize he's got problems...

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMajestic View Post
    To the point of obsession...I mean he's been TRYING hard and making connections but nothing panned out...

    I know one guy that would have given his left arm to become a Cop but his health issues put an end to his dream. To this day he is bitter about it...And he's originally from Florida...LOL...Must be something in the Oranges down there?

    Zimmerman must have sat in his car at the Club House daily being Angry at everything..Zimmerman's Family & friends don't even realize he's got problems...
    When someone has been arrested for domestic violence and hitting a cop, you don't defend him and call him "average" and a "good guy" like CNN and his friends have done.

  5. #205
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMajestic View Post
    Trayvon was tested for Drugs after his killing.....He had no Drugs in his system...Zimmermans Sharks have every right to try and paint a picture of Trayvon but his suspension from school is the best they got...They WISH they had more but they don't...Next the Sharks will go after Travon's Parents...

    George Zimmerman has an arrest record for assaulting a Law officer and his wife...The charges were thrown out for various reasons but he is the one with the Police-record on file....There's enough on Zimmerman to prove he's a Self-appointed-Night watchman-Cop-wanna-be Gone MAD...

    George can claim to Cry every day over the shooting but I still don't believe Trayvon followed him and attacked him...The 911 call tells a different story.....

    George has a history of Violence and if you're bold enough to put your hands on a Law-Officer & your Spouse then you're certainly bold enough to put your hands on a random stranger...
    That's all that matters. He's entitled to a presumption of innocence.

    All of this crap about what people look like, how they dress, if they're holding a blunt, or why their suspended from school means nothing.

    It's about whether Zimmerman reasonably believed he was in imminent danger of death or injury allowing him the use of force against Martin. A week ago, I thought it was a slam dunk that Zimmerman shot Martin unprovoked. Now we're seeing disinterested witnesses providing accounts that may support Zimmerman's version of events.

    I realize that society is geared towards instant gratification. But we need to be patient and wait until the grand jury speaks. We also need to be prepared to accept whatever they decide in a peaceful, civil manner on both sides.

  6. #206
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Well as more of Zimmerman's side of this story is not coming to light this case is not as clear cut as we first believed.

    Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went for his Gun

    If indeed Zimmerman did not confront Martin but was heading back to his car when Martin confronted and attacked him, SYG may be valid. Zimmerman may have contributed to the circumstances by following the boy but if he did not initiate the violence.....?

    And now we have a vigilante bounty from the Black Panthers?!!! This is getting way out of hand.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I believe that there is enough evidence to show Zimmerman's account doesn't quite add up including a phone call. Witnesses can't possibly be disinterested at this point. Zimmerman needs to face justice. Of course he has the assumption of innocence before proven guilty. That's just how the system works.

    And even if there are witnesses that may support Zimmerman's account, that still doesn't provide justification for what he did.
    Of the two phone calls we have heard, 911 and the girlfriend, what exactly conflicts with the Zimmerman account? I tried to see it but I'm afraid that if you look at it unbiased it doesn't conflict. I was all set to convict Zimmerman too with the rest of the court of public opinion but it is not so clear now.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Of the two phone calls we have heard, 911 and the girlfriend, what exactly conflicts with the Zimmerman account? I tried to see it but I'm afraid that if you look at it unbiased it doesn't conflict. I was all set to convict Zimmerman too with the rest of the court of public opinion but it is not so clear now.
    "George 'Zimmerman' saved his own life," according to a friend of "Zimmerman." He followed Martin against the dispatcher's direction, had a gun and got his ass whipped by someone half his age and weight and "Zimmerman" is in the right?

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    If there is a reasonable opportunity to escape, then that is the option to take. If that option doesn't exist, deadly force is acceptable, if, and only if, there is a high probability of losing your own life.
    Your response is quite thorough and I thank you for answering my question. It appears that homeowners (or renters, for that matter) in the UK do not have a duty to retreat from within their own homes. I note that “a proposal to give householders greater rights to forcibly tackle burglars” was defeated in the House of Commons in early 2004.

  10. #210
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    "George 'Zimmerman' saved his own life," according to a friend of "Zimmerman." He followed Martin against the dispatcher's direction, had a gun and got his ass whipped by someone half his age and weight and "Zimmerman" is in the right?
    I'm not saying he is 'in the right' just that it is no longer so clear he is 'in the wrong'. The one conclusion we have all been jumping to is that Zimmerman initiated the actual conflict and confronted Martin. It looks like it may have been Martin who actually initiated the violence, at a point when Zimmerman was actually withdrawing. This is no longer a clear cut case.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  11. #211
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Well as more of Zimmerman's side of this story is not coming to light this case is not as clear cut as we first believed.

    Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went for his Gun

    If indeed Zimmerman did not confront Martin but was heading back to his car when Martin confronted and attacked him, SYG may be valid. Zimmerman may have contributed to the circumstances by following the boy but if he did not initiate the violence.....?

    And now we have a vigilante bounty from the Black Panthers?!!! This is getting way out of hand.
    Ya got a cite for that "vigilante bounty"? I would like to read it and add it to my file. Thanks
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  12. #212
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Zimmerman is a liar and he's lied and weaseled himself out of justice before. Why should I believe anything he says? Trayvon was running... not going for his gun. And why did a so called "neighborhood" watch guy have a gun to begin with? He wasn't authorized to carry one.

    Zimmerman's account definitely does conflict with the facts. Zimmerman is a liar, and that will be proven to bet the case in a court of law.

    I'm not all set to convict Zimmerman. I know he will have his day in court. I, however, will not declare he's innocent nor do I believe he acted in self defense.

    You can look at this unbiased, and see that he went way too far and that he should face justice. Zimmerman didn't act in self defense, especially not against someone half his size. Zimmerman followed Trayvon against the advice of the police dispatcher. So no, I'm not buying your explanation, stardreamer.

    What doesn't make this so clear? The media, Zimmerman and his friends (who weren't there) trying to destroy Trayvon's reputation?
    Note, *I* haven't presented any explanation. I linked the GMA story and interview with Zimmerman's lawyer and friend. But I am just as suspicious of Zimmerman's Lawyer and friend's accounts as you are, I was looking at the police report, the account of the 13 year old witness and what has been reported so far from the telephone calls. Nothing in those accounts disagrees with the idea that Martin initiated the violence and fits the described scene. Before the reports of Zimmerman's injuries and the witness report it fit the conclusion we were jumping to but it is now not so clear.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  13. #213
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Ya got a cite for that "vigilante bounty"? I would like to read it and add it to my file. Thanks
    New Black Panther leader arrested as group sets bounty in Florida Shooting - Atlanta Journal Constitution

    The New Black Panther Party is offering a $10,000 bounty for the capture of Zimmerman, the Florida neighborhood watch captain who shot and killed Martin, an unarmed teenager, last month.

    "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," Black Panther leader Mikhail Muhammad said Saturday at a rally in Sanford, where Martin was killed Feb. 26, according to Fox News.

    Zimmerman has claimed he shot Martin in self-defense, but the New Black Panthers are calling for mobilization of 10,000 black men to capture Zimmerman, who has gone into hiding, the Orlando Sentinel reported.

    "He should be fearful for his life," Muhammad said. "You can't keep killing black children."
    Now there is no current warrant for Zimmerman's arrest nor is he a fugitive from justice, what exactly is he expecting these bounty hunters to do with Zimmerman if they catch him? The highlighted comments suggest he would like to be using and may be suggesting a word other than 'capture' if he thought he could get away with it.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  14. #214
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And why should I believe anything Zimmerman or his lawyer says? As well as what his friends say? Martin didn't initiate the violence and evidence supports that claim. He was confronted by Zimmerman, and there may have been an altercation, however, that does not excuse the lethal use of force. Zimmerman's injuries? Minor from what I heard.

    You are not suspicious like I am. I am suspicious of any police report. The police chief stepped aside because this case was mishandled. Even the prosecutor stepped aside, and a new one was appointed. If there was such strong evidence of self defense, as you are claiming, then why did these officials step aside? Because they know the police report was trumped up, distorted and the entire case was mishandled.

    The witness report may not be accurate, especially with the great deal of media attention occurring right now.

    You are, once again, making assumptions. Zimmerman initiated the attack, Zimmerman fired the lethal shot, and he needs to face justice. It doesn't get anymore clear then taht.
    The point is we are both making assumptions. It why I'm looking at the evidence that isn't colored by someone's viewpoint, like the lawyer's comments. Once you set that aside, it is not clear that Zimmerman is lying or telling the truth. Which is why I asked and no one has yet pointed out where that evidence contradicts Zimmerman's story?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    New Black Panther leader arrested as group sets bounty in Florida Shooting - Atlanta Journal Constitution



    Now there is no current warrant for Zimmerman's arrest nor is he a fugitive from justice, what exactly is he expecting these bounty hunters to do with Zimmerman if they catch him? The highlighted comments suggest he would like to be using and may be suggesting a word other than 'capture' if he thought he could get away with it.
    Thank you, all I could find were unheard of blogs.
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    I'm trying to find the link for:
    'Today on Hard Copy Chris was talking to the friend and the lawyer. Somewhere in the convo someone said that he called Trayvon a coon. One of them said it was a term of endearment. I nearly fell off my chair. Now I'm trying to find who said what and if I heard right.
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Okay the phone calls:
    Here a independent transcript of the 911 call (it is not an official record but made by news transcribers listening to the recording)

    George Zimmerman's 911 call transcript

    Hell reading to that you can't tell that he DIDN'T follow the 911 callers advice. Some audio experts are questioning the 'coon' reference saying he might be saying 'goon'. As racial slurs go its not in common use anymore among people under about 50.

    Unfortunately he hangs up before the actual encounter. So we have to go to the reported call from Martin's girlfriend. This gives us the actual words between the two just before the scuffle.

    The girl told Crump that Martin told her he was being followed and that she had encouraged him to run.

    "She knew details about what went on because he was telling her," Crump said.

    He said the girl heard the initial confrontation between Martin and Zimmerman.

    "Trayvon said, 'Why you following me, man?'" and Zimmerman said, 'What are you doing here?'" Crump said.

    He said the girl could tell by Martin's voice that he was then pushed. She thinks Martin's cellphone headset came off and then the call was disconnected, Crump said.
    Phone call reveals final moments of slain Florida Teen - Reuters

    The girl's comments that Martin was attacked are useful but as GianCarlo would point out her viewpoint may be colored by her involvement. What is clear here is Martin spoke first and Zimmerman answered then someone started the scuffle. It could have been either one.

    Now this is Zimmerman's story
    The Orlando Sentinel released details of George Zimmerman’s claim to self-defense. Zimmerman claimed he was on his way to the grocery store when he saw Trayvon Martin walking through the gated community, The Retreat at Twin Lakes. On grounds of suspicion, he immediately called the police and reported that a black male was acting strangely and might be under the influence of drugs.

    According to Zimmerman, after making the call he was walking back towards his SUV when Trayvon Martin approached him from behind. The pair “exchanged words” before Martin punched him in the nose. He fell to the ground, but Martin continued to beat him, bashing his head against the sidewalk. The 28-year-old self-appointed neighborhood watch volunteer told the police he shot the teenager in self-defense.

    George Zimmerman’s attorney, Craig Sooner, reiterated his statements to ABC News, saying that his client had a broken nose and suffered a gash to the back of his head.

    The Orlando Sentinel quoted witnesses who claimed that they saw Trayvon Martin on top of Zimmerman. The latter was crying for help as Martin continued to punch him.

    However, other witnesses narrated the opposite, claiming that they saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of Trayvon's body, and his hands pressed on his back."
    Trayvon Martin Murder Case: George Zimmerman’s side of story revealed

    The witness testimony is conflicted a bit but that is common in eyewitness reports in an incident like this. But overall they do not rule out Zimmerman's story. We also have the injuries that Zimmerman obtained, how did he get them?

    So IF he was returning to his car, this would be in keeping with the 911 call which suggests he had lost Martin and was following the dispatcher's request to meet the police. When Martin came up to him, confronted him, then hit him knocking him to the ground jumped on top of him and started banging his head against the sidewalk, suddenly self defense becomes a viable defense again.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  18. #218
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    OK I found it.

    Joe Oliver, the friend, was asked about Zimmerman used the term coon. Oliver said in the south a lot of people use coon asses. Well, that's true, at lease over here.
    But Oliver said his daughter said the term was a "term of endearment"! Pure bullshit!

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#46861605


    Friend: Zimmerman was afraid for his life.

    It's a video so you have to open the one labeled as above^^.
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  19. #219
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I'm trying to find the link for:
    'Today on Hard Copy Chris was talking to the friend and the lawyer. Somewhere in the convo someone said that he called Trayvon a coon. One of them said it was a term of endearment. I nearly fell off my chair. Now I'm trying to find who said what and if I heard right.
    The question is did he call him a coon? The tape is not real clear at that point and some folks trying to analyize the tape say he could be saying goon. It was the goon comment that someone was saying may be a term of endearment among current high schoolers but I haven't heard it used that way since the 50s. But then most folks don't use coon anymore either.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  20. #220
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Okay the phone calls:
    Here a independent transcript of the 911 call (it is not an official record but made by news transcribers listening to the recording)

    George Zimmerman's 911 call transcript

    Hell reading to that you can't tell that he DIDN'T follow the 911 callers advice. Some audio experts are questioning the 'coon' reference saying he might be saying 'goon'. As racial slurs go its not in common use anymore among people under about 50.

    Unfortunately he hangs up before the actual encounter. So we have to go to the reported call from Martin's girlfriend. This gives us the actual words between the two just before the scuffle.



    Phone call reveals final moments of slain Florida Teen - Reuters

    The girl's comments that Martin was attacked are useful but as GianCarlo would point out her viewpoint may be colored by her involvement. What is clear here is Martin spoke first and Zimmerman answered then someone started the scuffle. It could have been either one.

    Now this is Zimmerman's story

    Trayvon Martin Murder Case: George Zimmerman’s side of story revealed
    The Orlando Sentinel released details of George Zimmerman’s claim to self-defense. Zimmerman claimed he was on his way to the grocery store when he saw Trayvon Martin walking through the gated community, The Retreat at Twin Lakes. On grounds of suspicion, he immediately called the police and reported that a black male was acting strangely and might be under the influence of drugs.

    According to Zimmerman, after making the call he was walking back towards his SUV when Trayvon Martin approached him from behind. The pair “exchanged words” before Martin punched him in the nose. He fell to the ground, but Martin continued to beat him, bashing his head against the sidewalk. The 28-year-old self-appointed neighborhood watch volunteer told the police he shot the teenager in self-defense.

    George Zimmerman’s attorney, Craig Sooner, reiterated his statements to ABC News, saying that his client had a broken nose and suffered a gash to the back of his head.

    The Orlando Sentinel quoted witnesses who claimed that they saw Trayvon Martin on top of Zimmerman. The latter was crying for help as Martin continued to punch him.

    However, other witnesses narrated the opposite, claiming that they saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of Trayvon's body, and his hands pressed on his back."
    The witness testimony is conflicted a bit but that is common in eyewitness reports in an incident like this. But overall they do not rule out Zimmerman's story. We also have the injuries that Zimmerman obtained, how did he get them?

    So IF he was returning to his car, this would be in keeping with the 911 call which suggests he had lost Martin and was following the dispatcher's request to meet the police. When Martin came up to him, confronted him, then hit him knocking him to the ground jumped on top of him and started banging his head against the sidewalk, suddenly self defense becomes a viable defense again.
    I went back to the Hard ball video :
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#46861605


    You have to look up this title to the video. "Friend: Zimmerman was afraid for his life."
    In it that friend "Joe Oliver" says Zimmerman was coming from the grocery store.

    Now who is telling the truth?
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  21. #221
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The phone call does go against what Zimmerman has said.
    Good this is what I'm asking for, what part disagrees?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And injuries? From what I've heard, his injuries weren't anything serious and certainly not indicative of Trayvan bashing his head into the ground repeatedly. Didn't he have barely a scratch?
    Other than comments that he declined to be taken to the hospital and had stitches put in the next day, I haven't see any reports on how serious his wounds were. What I have heard is that he was bleeding from injuries on the back of his neck and that his clothes were dirty like he had been rolling on the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Overall, there are serious conflicts with Zimmerman's story and there is no question that Zimmerman is a liar and did not listen to the 911 dispatcher.
    Good this what I'm asking for what is it that conflicts? Would it be this:
    911 dispatcher:

    Are you following him? [2:24]

    Zimmerman:

    Yeah. [2:25]

    911 dispatcher:

    OK.

    We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

    Zimmerman:

    OK. [2:28]

    [Cut Dispatcher asking for information to save space]

    911 dispatcher:

    Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?

    Zimmerman:

    Yeah.

    911 dispatcher:

    Alright, where are you going to meet with them at?

    Zimmerman:

    Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]

    911 dispatcher:

    Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]

    Zimmerman:

    Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]
    It sounds like he is going back to his car.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Self defense is most definitely NOT a viable defense. Nice try though. You're telling me a guy twice Trayvan's size was knocked to the ground and his head repeatedly bashed on the ground? Have anything else outlandish?
    If he got a sucker punch in then yes it is possible

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    There is no "IF" he was returning to his car. Zimmerman instigated the attack from the evidence I have seen.
    Good WHAT evidence is that?

    I AM NOT saying you are wrong, I'm simply pointing out that the evidence is not so clear cut and that it is possible that the conclusions we have all been jumping to may be wrong.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Well, kulindahr, most are not familiar with the law, so as it stands I would at least want to see a revision made to this certain law. We have our differences as far as the 2nd amendment goes, so lets just keep this thread about Trayvon.
    There will never be a revision. Marion Hammer practically owns over half the Florida legislature. But they just might manage a resolution stating what the law is supposed to mean -- and it would be effectively binding on the courts, because courts always look to what the legislature meant a law to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Marijuana is something I have never done in my life. But at any rate, maybe he smoked it once or twice, but so did certain politicians. Trayvon seemed like a good kid... and now they are trying to put his reputation through the meat grinder... it's an attempt to justify what Zimmerman did. And to me that's quite foul.
    Someone should remind those vile, pitiful excuses for cops that the Reverend Pat Robertson says marijuana should be legal, and tell them to shut up.

    Of course they want to put Trayvon's reputation through the meat grinder -- they want to poison the views of any potential jurors for the trial they know is coming.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    What was that law called?
    Seems a stupid law to 'require' people to do that. Surely, the law also would've been unconstitutional, since you are being required 'not' to defend yourself. Unless of course, it infringes upon another right, say oh, the right to life. But, you get around that don't you, with the whole, criminals breaking 'the contract' (which they don't sign so isn't legal anyway) to justify your manipulation of rights in order to take liberty with another right.
    Oregon still has that law -- it's called 'duty to retreat'. It even gets applied to situations where an intruder has shot holes in your door to gain entry.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Rather a hundred innocent men sit in jail and pay massive bail than for one guilty man to walk free for lack of evidence to secure a murder conviction, i say (not to mention some innocents death).
    That's a position that's hostile to liberty. I'll stand with the old British adage, which I believe is found in Blackstone's commentaries: better for a hundred guilty to walk free than one innocent man be punished. That's eminently pro-liberty and pro-life.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    If you want to cut down the number of people willing to be violent, you need to teach people the meaning of respect. Its not a right, but its common courtesy, one that the US political arena, with all its vitriol, proves the nation is failing to address. I can only assume, it must be very bad in the US, because people don't live their lives here in any fear, even when we know it happens frequently, which makes your scaremongering argument about making people prey, really baseless.
    That's an outgrowth of self-ownership. It's part of the contract arising from wanting one's own rights respected. And of the political parties in the U.S., only the Libertarians pay attention to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Quite right, it ironically appears to increase safety with just a nominal reduction of liberty!
    Boy, was that a major typo I ded!
    Maybe I should watch CSI-type shows while responding to posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Bet Europe has an easier cure!
    I suppose. Increasing liberty is easier than teaching people to grow up.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Kuli - do you seriously think that in an environment where you are part of a community, you should have the liberty to defend yourself any way you want? What happens when I want to defend myself with an eclectic fence, a trench with alligators and molten tar? Also what if I feel that only a rocket launcher will guarantee my safety while outside? Or even better - a hand grenade?

    I mean, would you take away my liberty to defend myself as I see fit?

    I am a huge fan of not allowing paranoia to dictate laws...
    I hate misunderstandings that arise from ignorance of what a militia is.

    The right to keep and bear arms comes under the parameters of a militia. It's the right to the personal arms common to all soldiers. That comes down to a rifle, a sidearm, and possibly a knife.

    The right to any other weapons comes only in aggregate, when multiple militia members act together in concert, in a situation where such weapons pertain, e.g. severe civil unrest, outright rebellion, or invasion.

    This understanding in turn rests on the relation between individual and clan from back before the Norman invasion. I haven't traced in back well, though I'd like to one of these days because it may provide the flip side to total individualism, hopefully in a way that rests on its own set of root principles.

    BTW, on your own property you should be quite entitled to indulge your whims about defending your 'castle'. Just be careful -- that tar could make you liable to charges of chemical trespass if it seeps into your neighbor's soil or gives off fumes of any irritating sort.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Also, the common uniform of someone robbing a liquor store.
    Got a link for that? or is that just another smear attempt?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    It's about whether Zimmerman reasonably believed he was in imminent danger of death or injury allowing him the use of force against Martin. A week ago, I thought it was a slam dunk that Zimmerman shot Martin unprovoked. Now we're seeing disinterested witnesses providing accounts that may support Zimmerman's version of events.
    It's not even about that. If he initiated the confrontation, he has no self-defense claim; at the minimum he has assault and murder. Given that he was following Trayvon and continued to do so when police advised he shouldn't, there was sufficient time for it to be a case of premeditated murder.

    I don't believe these witnesses are disinterested; I'm not even sure I believe they were witnesses. We know that several people heard Trayvon yell for help, and that a travesty of a police officer engaged in tampering with a witness. We know that Trayvon tried to get away.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    I realize that society is geared towards instant gratification. But we need to be patient and wait until the grand jury speaks. We also need to be prepared to accept whatever they decide in a peaceful, civil manner on both sides.
    Really? If they say there's no case for prosecuting Zimmerman, I have no plan to be peaceful or civil.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I believe that there is enough evidence to show Zimmerman's account doesn't quite add up including a phone call. Witnesses can't possibly be disinterested at this point. Zimmerman needs to face justice. Of course he has the assumption of innocence before proven guilty. That's just how the system works.
    That phone call makes it plain Zimmerman and the cops are conspiring together to impede justice. Once Zimmerman is locked up, those cops should go with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And even if there are witnesses that may support Zimmerman's account, that still doesn't provide justification for what he did.
    I hope those alleged witnesses are caught in perjury and given a year in jail and a ten thousand dollar fine.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Then stop saying I'm wrong as you are doing. You have not presented anything that has convinced me that this was nothing more then a case of murder. It's nots elf defense. And you keep saying it's clear cut, yet you don't post anything how. You're just trying to give Zimmerman credibility. His credibility is non-existent and his story is manufactured.

    And I'm not wrong.
    I haven't said your were, I just asked what part of the evidence that YOU keep saying is so clear cut specifically contradicts Zimmerman's story and you have provided nothing. I have presented the available information to show that there is a question and the case is not clear cut.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And you keep saying it's clear cut,
    I've said exactly the opposite

    this case is not as clear cut as we first believed. MSG 270

    it is not so clear now MSG 271

    This is no longer a clear cut case. MSG 275

    but it is now not so clear. MSG 278
    You are the one who saying the case is clear cut and obvious, I'm asking you is to show me, I've provided all the relevant sources and you are free to provide your own. Of the information we have what contradicts the 'police' version?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Of the two phone calls we have heard, 911 and the girlfriend, what exactly conflicts with the Zimmerman account? I tried to see it but I'm afraid that if you look at it unbiased it doesn't conflict. I was all set to convict Zimmerman too with the rest of the court of public opinion but it is not so clear now.
    Huh?

    From the conversation with the girlfriend, Trayvon continued walking and trying to get away right up till Zimmerman shot him. How does that allow for the two talking, Zimmerman heading back for his truck, the two fighting, Trayvon going for Zimmerman's gun, and all that?


    edit: besides which, how the frak did Trayvon manage to keep taking on his cell phone during all that?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  29. #229
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    It just goes to show his wounds weren't serious at all. Any altercation is one he started... Trayvan was simply trying to get away.



    Doesn't sound like that at all. And he didn't listen to the dispatcher when he as told not to pursue Trayvan. Nothing in that transcript you posted proves anythingg.

    No it's not, and it's not self defense. A sucker punch? You're kidding me right? That's outlandish. And I'm not going to give Zimmerman any credibility or his stupid argument because he's nothing more then a thug.



    Then stop saying I'm wrong as you are doing. You have not presented anything that has convinced me that this was nothing more then a case of murder. It's nots elf defense. And you keep saying it's clear cut, yet you don't post anything how. You're just trying to give Zimmerman credibility. His credibility is non-existent and his story is manufactured.

    And I'm not wrong.

    I'm getting really annoyed. There is no argument for self defense. It wasn't a case of self defense. It's quite clear cut to me and the facts speak loud and clearly. Your argument is weak at best and doesn't even correspond with the links you're posting.

    One can cherry pick transcripts to justify what Zimmerman did (which was murder), but it won't change the reality. Zimmerman didn't act in self defense. He wast twice the size of the kid... he shot and murdered him. How is this a case of self defense? No one has demonstrated that.
    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I went back to the Hard ball video :
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#46861605


    You have to look up this title to the video. "Friend: Zimmerman was afraid for his life."
    In it that friend "Joe Oliver" says Zimmerman was coming from the grocery store.

    Now who is telling the truth?
    You will note I'm not paying any real relevance to what Zimmerman's lawyer and friend are saying, they are biased sources. I'm trying to compare Zimmerman's and the police's acccounts against the available sources, the phone calls and third party witnesses to see where it didn't add up. I WANTED IT NOT TO ADD UP, I EXPECTED IT NOT TO ADD UP. I was surprised to find that I when looked at it that way I can't say that account is not the truth. I can't say its a lie either but I'm still waiting for someone to show me it is.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  30. #230
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Huh?

    From the conversation with the girlfriend, Trayvon continued walking and trying to get away right up till Zimmerman shot him. How does that allow for the two talking, Zimmerman heading back for his truck, the two fighting, Trayvon going for Zimmerman's gun, and all that?


    edit: besides which, how the frak did Trayvon manage to keep taking on his cell phone during all that?
    The girl told Crump that Martin told her he was being followed and that she had encouraged him to run.

    "She knew details about what went on because he was telling her," Crump said.

    He said the girl heard the initial confrontation between Martin and Zimmerman.

    "Trayvon said, 'Why you following me, man?'" and Zimmerman said, 'What are you doing here?'" Crump said.

    He said the girl could tell by Martin's voice that he was then pushed. She thinks Martin's cellphone headset came off and then the call was disconnected, Crump said.
    Link in msg 285, I'd welcome a more complete and transcript but she doesn't really know really what Trayvon was doing. This quote above is not inconsistent with Zimmerman's version. Which is really what threw me because it was this same statement that had convinced me of Zimmerman's guilt in the first place. Now going back and looking at it again, its not so clear.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I'm not saying he is 'in the right' just that it is no longer so clear he is 'in the wrong'. The one conclusion we have all been jumping to is that Zimmerman initiated the actual conflict and confronted Martin. It looks like it may have been Martin who actually initiated the violence, at a point when Zimmerman was actually withdrawing. This is no longer a clear cut case.
    That totally contradicts the conversation with the girlfriend, which we know continued right up until Trayvon was shot. Are we to suppose he put her on hold while he attacked Zimmerman?

    Besides which, we have no rational motive for him to attack, when the phone call makes plain all he wanted to do was get away. Should we imagine he developed a sudden hatred for Zimmerman? that he had sudden delusions that he could defeat a man over 100 pounds heavier, who had a gun?

    There's only one sensible reason he might have gone for Zimmerman's gun: Zimmerman had already drawn it and taken the safety off in order to shoot. In that case, Zimmerman wasn't standing his ground, he was committing murder.

    Zimmerman didn't turn and leave, and Trayvon didn't chase him and attack. Zimmerman threatened Trayvon's life, and Trayvon desperately fought to survive.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Exactly my friend. That's what happened. Trayvan was walking and trying to get away. Trayvan never went back after Zimmerman and never went for his gun.
    GOOD! GOOD! GOOD! THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVED UNTIL TODAY!!!!! HELP ME TO BELIEVE IT AGAIN. SHOW ME HOW WE KNOW THIS BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT NOW THAT WE HAVE THESE OTHER DETAILS????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WANT TO BELIEVE THIS!!!!!!!! Spirits why do we have to turn these into a I'm right and your an idiot fights instead of rational discussion of the issue?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    The point is we are both making assumptions. It why I'm looking at the evidence that isn't colored by someone's viewpoint, like the lawyer's comments. Once you set that aside, it is not clear that Zimmerman is lying or telling the truth. Which is why I asked and no one has yet pointed out where that evidence contradicts Zimmerman's story?
    Whoa -- where the frak do you get the idea that a man's attorney's statements aren't "colored by someone's viewpoint"? Of COURSE they're colored! He wants his client to get off!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  34. #234
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Whoa -- where the frak do you get the idea that a man's attorney's statements aren't "colored by someone's viewpoint"? Of COURSE they're colored! He wants his client to get off!
    Sorry not well phased there, my meaning is I am not trying to base my evaluation on potentially biased views from either side. I consider the lawyer and friends statements to be biased views which is why I was trying to say "biased views, "LIKE" the lawyer's"
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Then you go rant and rave about something that you saw mysteriously today in the evidence to someone else. I'm just not seeing it, and I'm not going to convince you. You are convinced that Zimmerman acted in self defense. Fine. I really don't want to continue this or else I will lose my temper.
    No I'm not convince he acted in self defense. I'm even sure if his side of the story were completely true, he would at least be negligent and an imbecile for have set the stage for the confrontation. It just no longer clear to me that the scenario we've all been building up for the last week is entirely correct and that he might have a tiny bit of justification in his self defense claim. I don't necessarily believe he does or he doesn't, if anything I'm annoyed at myself for now for not waiting to hear his side of the story before drawing conclusions. I'm trying now NOT to continue doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And Kulindahr did a better job explaining it then me in prior post. Trayvon never went back to Zimmerman and didn't attack a man 100 pounds heavier. He didn't even have a motive to do so. In addition, the phone call to his girlfriend clearly shows he was trying to get away. He was shot Trayvon while he was on the phone... was he somehow attacking Zimmerman when he was on the phone?

    You missed that fact.
    And I would love for one of you, to show me where in the girlfriend's phone conversation it is clear that Zimmerman started the attack and that Trayvon was trying to get away. She said the connection was broken the moment the fight started and it isn't clear who started it from the account I read. Is there a better one?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And I'm not convinced by anything you're trying to do here to give the claim of self defense a possibility. There is no possibility. His side of the story is pure baloney.



    The connection was broken when the fight was started... she described Trayvon are trying to get away. Why is this difficult? Why would he start the fight when he was on the phone trying to get away from a man with a gun? Did he think he could overpower a man 100 pounds heavier then him and get his gun? It doesn't make sense. The only thing that makes sense here is that Zimmerman was definitely the aggressor and shot him in cold blood.
    And we know this based on what? Can you show me the quotes? People can and do beat people who are bigger and heavier than they are. We now have two different accounts, it is likely that Zimmerman's is a lie, all I'm asking is how do we know for sure? Or do we owe Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt that is inherent in our Constitutional promise of innocent until proven guilty? I was trying to figure that out today and as I said the few things I can be sure of in the evidence FITS BOTH ACCOUNTS! So how do we know?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  37. #237
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Link in msg 285, I'd welcome a more complete and transcript but she doesn't really know really what Trayvon was doing. This quote above is not inconsistent with Zimmerman's version. Which is really what threw me because it was this same statement that had convinced me of Zimmerman's guilt in the first place. Now going back and looking at it again, its not so clear.
    I've seen a more complete version, but this is pretty solid:

    “He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on,” she said. “He said he lost the man. I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”
    source

    This contradicts Zimmerman's story all over the place. Zimmerman said Martin ran; Martin told his GF he wasn't going to run. Zimmerman said Martin had a hoodie on and it made him look suspicious; Martin didn't put his hoodie up until Zimmerman started following him; Zimmerman said Martin came and attacked him; Martin told his GF he was just going to get away.

    So if Martin hit Zimmerman, it was because Zimmerman was being threatening. Why should we think Zimmerman was being threatening? Because there were numerous complaints from neighbors that Zimmerman was aggressive and threatening. So what we have is a stalker coming after a kid, who gets scared and tries to get away, and the stalker catches up and corners him, and the kid tries to defend himself, at which point the stalker shoots him. Why would we think Zimmerman might shoot? Because almost every call he made to 911 was about a young black male, and neighbors complained he singled out young black males.


    That's the best face I can put on Zimmerman.


    But here's what I think was the case:

    Zimmerman was a self-appointed watch captain, which means he wasn't one. He was aggressive, and fixated on young black males. He finally managed to get one to engage in a defense, so he could shoot him. He's a bigot who wanted to justify shooting a black boy, a "coon". His whole point in appointing himself a "watch captain" and making a nuisance of himself around the neighborhood was in hopes of getting into a situation where he could shoot a black boy -- which boy didn't matter to him, whether the boy was doing anything wrong didn't matter to him, he just wanted to kill a black boy.
    And his friends at the police department, racists themselves, were in on it, probably joked about it, and were ready to cover for him. So when he scored his trophy, they deliberately "failed" to investigate, put out the story they'd agreed on, "corrected" witnesses to get them to agree with the 'official' story. Then they prodded the prepared witnesses to tell the prepared story, and that's what we're hearing now.

    But they didn't count on Trayvon to be on the phone with his GF, so there was someone to tell the truth and foul up all their plans. So the chief resigned to get out of the fray, and the prosecutor resigned to not be caught as part of the set-up. They counted on the chief to testify, if it came to that, and the prosecutor to declare it was covered under "stand your ground", but that wasn't going to work, so two key people stepped out of the way.


    That's how I'd put it to a jury: a man who drooled over the idea of killing a black boy finally managed to do it, his friends are trying to cover up -- but the GF gave us the truth . . . so convict.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The connection was broken when the fight was started... she described Trayvon are trying to get away. Why is this difficult? Why would he start the fight when he was on the phone trying to get away from a man with a gun? Did he think he could overpower a man 100 pounds heavier then him and get his gun? It doesn't make sense. The only thing that makes sense here is that Zimmerman was definitely the aggressor and shot him in cold blood.
    There's a good point. We have to turn to conspiracy theory thinking to believe that Trayvon attacked while talking on the phone. The most sensible explanation for the phone suddenly being dropped is that Zimmerman struck in surprise, either just hitting Trayvon or deliberately knocking the phone down to prevent evidence.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    I'm posting this to see if it is what Stardreamer is looking for.
    I think there is really something going on at the police station. This cop should not be correcting a witness in what to say about what the witness saw.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhoo...6#.T3FAbdXAnXS


    By MATT GUTMAN (@mattgutmanABC) and SENI TIENABESO (@senijr_abc)
    ORLANDO, Fla., March 13, 2012

    ABC News has uncovered questionable police conduct in the investigation of the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white neighborhood

    watch captain in Florida, including the alleged "correction" of at least one eyewitness' account.

    Sanford Police Chief Billy Lee said there is no evidence to dispute self-appointed neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman's assertion that he shot

    17-year-old Trayvon Martin out of self-defense.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I've seen a more complete version, but this is pretty solid:



    source

    This contradicts Zimmerman's story all over the place. Zimmerman said Martin ran; Martin told his GF he wasn't going to run. Zimmerman said Martin had a hoodie on and it made him look suspicious; Martin didn't put his hoodie up until Zimmerman started following him; Zimmerman said Martin came and attacked him; Martin told his GF he was just going to get away.

    So if Martin hit Zimmerman, it was because Zimmerman was being threatening. Why should we think Zimmerman was being threatening? Because there were numerous complaints from neighbors that Zimmerman was aggressive and threatening. So what we have is a stalker coming after a kid, who gets scared and tries to get away, and the stalker catches up and corners him, and the kid tries to defend himself, at which point the stalker shoots him. Why would we think Zimmerman might shoot? Because almost every call he made to 911 was about a young black male, and neighbors complained he singled out young black males.


    That's the best face I can put on Zimmerman.


    But here's what I think was the case:

    Zimmerman was a self-appointed watch captain, which means he wasn't one. He was aggressive, and fixated on young black males. He finally managed to get one to engage in a defense, so he could shoot him. He's a bigot who wanted to justify shooting a black boy, a "coon". His whole point in appointing himself a "watch captain" and making a nuisance of himself around the neighborhood was in hopes of getting into a situation where he could shoot a black boy -- which boy didn't matter to him, whether the boy was doing anything wrong didn't matter to him, he just wanted to kill a black boy.
    And his friends at the police department, racists themselves, were in on it, probably joked about it, and were ready to cover for him. So when he scored his trophy, they deliberately "failed" to investigate, put out the story they'd agreed on, "corrected" witnesses to get them to agree with the 'official' story. Then they prodded the prepared witnesses to tell the prepared story, and that's what we're hearing now.

    But they didn't count on Trayvon to be on the phone with his GF, so there was someone to tell the truth and foul up all their plans. So the chief resigned to get out of the fray, and the prosecutor resigned to not be caught as part of the set-up. They counted on the chief to testify, if it came to that, and the prosecutor to declare it was covered under "stand your ground", but that wasn't going to work, so two key people stepped out of the way.


    That's how I'd put it to a jury: a man who drooled over the idea of killing a black boy finally managed to do it, his friends are trying to cover up -- but the GF gave us the truth . . . so convict.
    I'm trying not to get into get into anyone heads at this point so I can't say if he was trophy hunting or not. I would certainly say its possible. Chances are Zimmerman is the one who is lying here, I'm inclined to agree with that. At the very least he did everything wrong for someone whose supposed to be watch captain. You know as well as I that a lawyer is going to point out that the girlfriend was not THERE, she doesn't know that Trayvon was moving away from Zimmerman even if he thought he was. The two lines of conversation she provides from when they do meet does not really illustrate who actually started to final conflict. Yes if he was holding a phone handset it seems like he wouldn't start it but how do we know he was holding a phone? She says the headset dropped, was he wearing a bluetooth headset? I really want to believe Zimmerman is guilty as sin but it just seems to be a shadow of a doubt now and I'm trying to evaluate that against the hard facts I've got.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    You've got to be kidding. He was wearing a bluetooth headset? I don't know anyone who uses a bluetooth headset outside of a car. And why would he take his time to set up bluetooth when he's being chased by someone? I really don't think you're making a good case for yourself at all. Trayvon dropped his PHONE after he was attacked by Zimmerman.
    I believe she did say "headset". I presume that means bluetooth. I see people wearing one a lot outside a car in just one situation: shopping. It leaves both hands free to grab and hold things. So I can believe it was a headset. But there's one thing puzzling there: if it was dropped on pavement, even a cheap one should have provided her some sound. If it was dropped on grass, though, only a really good one would pick up the relatively distant sounds. OTOH, if it got stepped on, that would kill the call on all the models I'm aware of.

    BTW, if he had any decent model, a tap of the earpiece and a short command would give him a connection.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I think Kulindahr said it better then I did. There are major contradictions in Zimmerman's story. At the very least he did everything wrongG? He committed murder. He should be on trial for that. I think there is enough in that post to show concrete evidence of the murder. Now there should be a trial. Anything less then a trial would be am miscarriage of justice as this wasn't a case of self defense.



    You've got to be kidding. He was wearing a bluetooth headset? I don't know anyone who uses a bluetooth headset outside of a car. And why would he take his time to set up bluetooth when he's being chased by someone? I really don't think you're making a good case for yourself at all. Trayvon dropped his PHONE after he was attacked by Zimmerman.

    You're not evaluating well this case well at all. And then you put a lot into the statements of an eyewitness... when the police mishandled eyewitnesses... the whole case was a disaster and mishandled by the police and prosecutor.
    I use my bluetooth all the time and I see people using them everyday in stores, walking down the street, in the mall. My running joke with the family was people talking to thin air used to be a sign of insanity before bluetooth. A lot of people use them out of concern that the handset radiation causes cancer and other just to have their hands free while the walk and talk. I hate holding my handset to my ear, not only does it get sweaty but I like to talk with my hands and long conversations get uncomfortable. A lot of phones now can be dialed from the headset using voice commands so your phone never has to leave its holster.

    But Spirits folks when did it become a crime to question your assumptions, I may not be evaluating this new evidence "well at all" but at least I'm TRYING to evaluate it not just dismiss it out of hand based on my previous assumptions. Isn't that the scientific and logical method?

    But you are all right, Zimmerman is the devil, no need to ask questions, let the Black Panthers hunt him down and save the tax payers a trial. The court of public opinion is always right and questioning the assumed truth is a fools errand. Good night.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    I knew it. It didn't take long for the usual suspects to start siding with the murderer over the black boy. Good ol' Dixie is alive and well, eh Jack_Springer and Stardreamer?
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    I knew it. It didn't take long for the usual suspects to start siding with the murderer over the black boy. Good ol' Dixie is alive and well, eh Jack_Springer and Stardreamer?
    I don't think Stardreamer is siding with anyone.

    Jack, though, is being his usual statist tool self.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And now I feel really disrespected by the assumptions that I don't want a trial and I'd rather see Zimmerman killed by the Black Panthers.
    Given the number of felons in that organization and its leadership, I'd rather use Zimmerman for bait and take out their whole "bounty" team.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I don't. I only see people using them in the car... and yes, perhaps sometimes shopping. But I don't believe that applies here. Still, even if he was wearing a headset... what does that prove? He was still attacked by Zimmerman.



    What? You're not evaluating. I've discussed the evidence throughout this thread and made several key points about it. Where am I dismissing evidence? The police mishandled this case. And Zimmerman's claim is not new evidence.



    Where did I ever say that? I've said he deserves his day in court. I've said that numerous times. You're just assuming about what I said. I've looked at the evidence available and I have a right to make a judgment. But I've always maintained he has the right to a trial.

    I'd like an apology right now. I've questioned the police and authorities in this case. Is that not questioning? I've questioned how this whole case was handled...

    I never even said anything about the court of public opinion. My opinions are based on the evidence available and that's it.
    You have my apologies. You are completely right and I'm completely wrong nothing else to be said.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    You have my apologies. You are completely right and I'm completely wrong nothing else to be said.
    Ooh, sarcasm!


    I can almost make things fit Zimmerman's version, except Martin coming back and attacking him. That just doesn't fit what Martin told his GF. At that point, everything comes unraveled for Zimmerman, because if that isn't right, basically nothing else is.

    And were I an attorney, I'd argue that the moment Zimmerman disregarded police advice, he became an aggressor, and as such not covered by the law anyway.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    That's not what I meant at all... but that's fine. I really don't want to continue this any longer.
    Yah. I think we've explored this as far as available evidence will go. Any new evidence will of course have the drawback of being suspect by appearing so late, but if there's some new big revelation we can dive back in.

    Meanwhile, I have a teensy doubt about how it went down, but not a reasonable one about Zimmerman's guilt.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    I knew it. It didn't take long for the usual suspects to start siding with the murderer over the black boy. Good ol' Dixie is alive and well, eh Jack_Springer and Stardreamer?
    For this I demand an apology. I have done nothing more than point out there may be a doubt and questioned some assumptions. I've gone through most of this thread agreeing with the assumptions about Zimmerman and his claims of self defense. Does pausing in that for one day to try and look at some new information (to me at least) on the issue impartially and questioning if my previous assumptions might be in error make me a racist? Well screw you.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Ooh, sarcasm!


    I can almost make things fit Zimmerman's version, except Martin coming back and attacking him. That just doesn't fit what Martin told his GF. At that point, everything comes unraveled for Zimmerman, because if that isn't right, basically nothing else is.

    And were I an attorney, I'd argue that the moment Zimmerman disregarded police advice, he became an aggressor, and as such not covered by the law anyway.
    I agree the motivations is all wrong. I considered the possibility that Martin just decided to confront the stranger following him but that assumes he is lying to his girlfriend and isn't aware Zimmerman is armed. And the histories of the two lean against this too, since Martin doesn't seem to have a history of violence and Zimmerman does.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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