Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

[jackoroe]

I hear ya. But as i see it. Trayvon had the reason to be threatened, he had the need to defend himself. The whole incident would NEVER have happened, if Zimmerman had backed the hell off, the kid was on his way home. Now he is dead. Zimmerman instigated the incident from the outset, and legal protection or not, this was murder. Call it justifiable by your laws, but its murder.

It's certainly a tragedy. I'm just trying to figure out why like everybody else. It's one of those confluences where if one small thing is changed, nothing bad would have happened. Zimmerman having the flu and not going out, Martin taking a different path home, or even going through earlier or later. It's just remarkable how something so small could have such a huge effect on the outcome when you think about it.

[T-Rexx]

Trayvon had the reason to be threatened, he had the need to defend himself. The whole incident would NEVER have happened, if Zimmerman had backed the hell off, the kid was on his way home. Now he is dead. Zimmerman instigated the incident from the outset, and legal protection or not, this was murder. Call it justifiable by your laws, but its murder.

If Trayvon Martin had had a gun, and he had felt threatened because some creep was following him, he could have justifiably shot and killed that creep (Zimmerman) because he felt threatened. He would merely have been "standing his ground" in the face of a threat.

If Zimmerman was following Martin and was challenged by Martin because of it, Zimmerman may justifiably shoot and kill Martin because he felt threatened by Martin's challenge. Zimmerman would merely have been "standing his ground." Martin's self-defense is Zimmerman's threat.

As you can see, "Stand Your Ground" is a license to kill. There is no such thing as murder in Florida.

In the past, belligerents in Florida were compelled to withdraw from conflict. Now, they are encouraged to escalate violence by "standing their ground" with a gun.

"Stand Your Ground" is absurd beyond all reason. That's why Republicans love it!

[T-Rexx]

It's certainly a tragedy. I'm just trying to figure out why like everybody else. It's one of those confluences where if one small thing is changed, nothing bad would have happened. Zimmerman having the flu and not going out, Martin taking a different path home, or even going through earlier or later. It's just remarkable how something so small could have such a huge effect on the outcome when you think about it.

It is probability and statistics. It is the odds that a person (or persons) with a lethal weapon encounters another person or persons under circumstances that at least one of them misinterprets dangerously.

As more and more people start to carry guns, more and more such encounters will undoubtedly occur. And more and more people will die.

But at least it won't increase the murder rate, so long as we make it legal with "Stand Your Ground" laws.

[jackoroe]

If Trayvon Martin had had a gun, and he had felt threatened because some creep was following him, he could have justifiably shot and killed that creep (Zimmerman) because he felt threatened. He would merely have been "standing his ground" in the face of a threat.

If Zimmerman was following Martin and was challenged by Martin because of it, Zimmerman may justifiably shoot and kill Martin because he felt threatened by Martin's challenge. Zimmerman would merely have been "standing his ground." Martin's self-defense is Zimmerman's threat.

As you can see, "Stand Your Ground" is a license to kill. There is no such thing as murder in Florida.

In the past, belligerents in Florida were compelled to withdraw from conflict. Now, they are encouraged to escalate violence by "standing their ground" with a gun.

"Stand Your Ground" is absurd beyond all reason. That's why Republicans love it!

Except that Federal law prohibits people under the age of 18 from possessing handguns.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-i-5300-2.pdf

[mitchymo]

It's certainly a tragedy. I'm just trying to figure out why like everybody else. It's one of those confluences where if one small thing is changed, nothing bad would have happened. Zimmerman having the flu and not going out, Martin taking a different path home, or even going through earlier or later. It's just remarkable how something so small could have such a huge effect on the outcome when you think about it.

I'm sorry, but that seems like trivialisation. The BIGGEST factor in this was nothing small at all, it was the law of the land, working in the hands of an abuser of that law. Both criminal AND legislators are responsible for Trayvon's death. The means was provided (unintentional perhaps) and Zimmerman took advantage. The law has a responsibility to ensure public safety, not just individual rights.

[jackoroe]

It is probability and statistics. It is the odds that a person (or persons) with a lethal weapon encounters another person or persons under circumstances that at least one of them misinterprets.

As more and more people start to carry guns, more and more such encounters will undoubtedly occur. And more and more people will die.

But at least it won't increase the murder rate, so long as we make it legal with "Stand Your Ground" laws.

I believe they are categorized as justifiable homicides, locally. The Uniform Crime Report considers any willful killing of another to be "murder" for statistical purposes.

http://www.ci.durham.nc.us/departmen.../mdr/ucr1.html

[mitchymo]

Except that Federal law prohibits people under the age of 18 from possessing handguns.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-i-5300-2.pdf

Strange really when you think about it, kids are far more vulnerable than adults...i wonder when the next NRA-pushed law will introduce armed paperboys.

[T-Rexx]

Except that Federal law prohibits people under the age of 18 from possessing handguns.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-i-5300-2.pdf

I am aware of that, but the illustration stands. SYG makes murder legal.

And the fact that "Stand Your Ground" makes life even more dangerous for children than adults just adds irony to its stupidity.

[Lostlover]

The plot seems to be thickening. There's a witness to the whole episode who claims Martin attacked Zimmerman. There is also physical evidence to support the witnesses account.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...erman-03232012

Does this allegation make a difference? Did Martin have a gun? The dispatcher told fat ass not to follow him.

There's no plot to thicken. It's only a matter of time before "Zimmerman" is hogtied like the pig that he is by some law enforcement agency.

[Lostlover]

Except that Federal law prohibits people under the age of 18 from possessing handguns.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-i-5300-2.pdf

Hey Jackoroes, I got to thinking on my long flight from the east coast about this incident. And I have a question: Why aren't guns allowed on flights if gun ownerships insures public safety, according to conservatives?

[jackoroe]

Hey Jackoroes, I got to thinking on my long flight from the east coast about this incident. And I have a question: Why aren't guns allowed on flights if gun ownerships insures public safety, according to conservatives?

There are structural considerations when shooting inside a plane. Not a real good idea to shoot holes in pressurized cabins. But some people (just not you) carry guns on planes. Pilots, Sky Marshals and other Federal law enforcement among them. The Marshals have a special frangible ammo designed to fragment on impact with solid objects so they don't poke holes in the plane, just the bad guy.

[T-Rexx]

There are structural considerations when shooting inside a plane. Not a real good idea to shoot holes in pressurized cabins. But some people (just not you) carry guns on planes. Pilots, Sky Marshals and other Federal law enforcement among them. The Marshals have a special frangible ammo designed to fragment on impact with solid objects so they don't poke holes in the plane, just the bad guy.

Although, occasionally, the pilots will shoot holes in the plane.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-3965159.html

[MisterMajestic]

Have those pundits over at Fox News gone completely insane?

Geraldo Rivera said on Fox and Friends that wearing a hooded sweatshirt was responsible for his killing. He said:

“I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin’s death as George Zimmerman was.”

Good grief. The shit that comes out of that network is just unreal.

I Love Geraldo and he's a Legend...I've agreed and disagreed with him on many issues..His statement about the "Hoody" is Insane & Absurd..I have a "Sean-John" Hoody that was given to me as a gift years ago..I will continue to wear it for years to come......I wear Dress-clothes and dress-khakis to work 4 days a week...I've gone into Department stores before & after work in dress clothes and the White Male & Female sales-reps still follow me around or look at me as if I'm up to something..This does not happen every time I shop at a Men's clothing store but it happens and I pretend not to notice.....It's not about the "clothes" it is about the Skin Color..Just call it what it is....

George Zimmerman has been "trigger happy" and itching to Shoot somebody for a Long ass time....It was gonna happen....

[jackoroe]

I am aware of that, but the illustration stands. SYG makes murder legal.

And the fact that "Stand Your Ground" makes life even more dangerous for children than adults just adds irony to its stupidity.

The overall violent crime rate in Florida per 100,000 is less than half of what it was in 1990. Homicide in 1990 was 1387. In 2010 it was 987, exactly 400 less. This despite the fact that Florida has an additional 5,500,000 people living there today than in 1990.

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/...ent-Crime.aspx

I've previously pointed out that Florida continues to charge approximately 650 people per year with murder, so it isn't exactly legal is it?

[jackoroe]

Although, occasionally, the pilots will shoot holes in the plane.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-3965159.html

That's technically referred to as an "Oopsie".

[T-Rexx]

The overall violent crime rate in Florida per 100,000 is less than half of what it was in 1990. Homicide in 1990 was 1387. In 2010 it was 987, exactly 400 less. This despite the fact that Florida has an additional 5,500,000 people living there today than in 1990.

Violent crime and homicide has fallen just about everywhere in the USA since 1990. Even in places that do not have "Stand Your Ground."

I've previously pointed out that Florida continues to charge approximately 650 people per year with murder, so it isn't exactly legal is it?

But successful prosecutions of murder have fallen since SYG was passed in 2005.

[Lostlover]

There are structural considerations when shooting inside a plane. Not a real good idea to shoot holes in pressurized cabins. But some people (just not you) carry guns on planes. Pilots, Sky Marshals and other Federal law enforcement among them. The Marshals have a special frangible ammo designed to fragment on impact with solid objects so they don't poke holes in the plane, just the bad guy.

It's also not a real idea to shoot inside a school or library or park.

Gun control is permitted in the skies, but not parks where parents take their children?

[opinterph]

The overall violent crime rate in Florida per 100,000 is less than half of what it was in 1990. Homicide in 1990 was 1387. In 2010 it was 987, exactly 400 less. This despite the fact that Florida has an additional 5,500,000 people living there today than in 1990.

A decrease in crime seems to be happening in most areas of the US – especially less densely populated places.

United States Crime Index Rates Per 100,000 Inhabitants [Link]

Violent:

1990 = 731.8
2010 = 403.6 = 55.2% of 1990

Total:

1990 = 5,820.3
2010 = 3,345.5 = 57.4% of 1990

In all regions, the country appears to be safer. The odds of being murdered or robbed are now less than half of what they were in the early 1990s, when violent crime peaked in the United States.

Steady Decline in Major Crime Baffles Experts

[jackoroe]

Violent crime and homicide has fallen just about everywhere in the USA since 1990. Even in places that do not have "Stand Your Ground."


But successful prosecutions of murder have fallen since SYG was passed in 2005.

23 other states have SYG laws that mirror Florida's. That's 46% of the country. Now given that fact, is crime going up or down nationwide?

Well, murder has been going down every year as far back as I looked, which was 1990. So, you're hard pressed to make the argument that SYG has resulted in mass murder and mayhem.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

As to successfully prosecuting people for murder, it shouldn't be easy to put somebody in jail for the rest of their lives or to execute them. It should be the most difficult case for anybody to make given the stakes.

[jackoroe]

It's also not a real idea to shoot inside a school or library or park.

Gun control is permitted in the skies, but not parks where parents take their children?

It's not a real good idea to shoot anywhere except a range, if you can avoid it. Sometimes circumstances make that decision for you, unfortunately.

[Kulindahr]

Why the frak would Martin have attacked Zimmerman? What's the motive?

[Stardreamer]

If the cell phone calls are in indication, Zimmerman confronted him and it turned into a scuffle.

[frankfrank]

It's not a real good idea to shoot anywhere except a range, if you can avoid it. Sometimes circumstances make that decision for you, unfortunately.

However, it's impossible to shoot a mouse if it runs out from under your kitchen stove, because it's out of your range.

This controversy may be part of the political dialogue all the way to November, or later. I certainly agree with the majority here. If Z. was "threatened," why did he keep chasing Trayvon, even when he was told not to?

One cannot judge a book by its cover, but Zimmerman's mugshots look like a "Neanderthal redneck thug"...

[Rolyo85]

It's not a real good idea to shoot anywhere except a range, if you can avoid it. Sometimes circumstances make that decision for you, unfortunately.

I still say the simplest solution is for NOBODY to have a gun in a private citizen capacity. Then NOBODY gets shot, regardless of circumstances. It's very weird to me that some people seem to not see that...

[Ninja108]

Sorry,no matter what comes out, the fact remains that instead of staying in his car like he was told,Zimmerman got out of it and got into a fight,just like he intended to.
Self-defense won't fly here,nor should it.

[Kulindahr]

I still say the simplest solution is for NOBODY to have a gun in a private citizen capacity. Then NOBODY gets shot, regardless of circumstances. It's very weird to me that some people seem to not see that...

Rubbish. Criminals will just make their own guns. It can be done with tools that can be purchased at pretty much any mall. Criminals would be thrilled at the idea of citizens not being able to shoot back.

[Rolyo85]

Rubbish. Criminals will just make their own guns. It can be done with tools that can be purchased at pretty much any mall. Criminals would be thrilled at the idea of citizens not being able to shoot back.

Weird, isn't it, how this horrifying dystopia hasn't occured anywhere in Europe? O.o

I wanna see a random street thug MAKE a gun

[JohannBessler]

The plot seems to be thickening. There's a witness to the whole episode who claims Martin attacked Zimmerman. There is also physical evidence to support the witnesses account.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...erman-03232012

You just quoted a Fox affiliate to a bunch of lefties?

(Good Lord Almighty. Even a child could see the problem with this.)

[archive]

It just amazes me how many witnesses are coming out about a murder that happened almost a month ago. I really do loathe humankind.

[Huntneo(PT)]

If the cell phone calls are in indication, Zimmerman confronted him and it turned into a scuffle.

Does this allegation make a difference? Did Martin have a gun? The dispatcher told fat ass not to follow him.

Sorry,no matter what comes out, the fact remains that instead of staying in his car like he was told,Zimmerman got out of it and got into a fight,just like he intended to.
Self-defense won't fly here,nor should it.

+ 1000

..this will be what eventually does Zimmerman in. That's going to be a very important part in this case...no matter how it plays out.

[White Eagle]

It doesn't really matter is "Zimmerman" has broken bones, bruises or a concussion; he picked a fight with someone half his size, and half his age and brought out a gun to settle it. I understand that this is his lawyer's spin but people will leap on it to justify the shooting of an unarmed teenager minding his business.

Let me add something to that. The lawyer hadn't talked to Zimmerman yet.

[White Eagle]

Read the links in your own posts man.

How stupid. If it was in the links, I didn't say it.

[White Eagle]

You just quoted a Fox affiliate to a bunch of lefties?

(Good Lord Almighty. Even a child could see the problem with this.)

I'll ditto that! How curious that Fox found a witness.

[Ninja108]

I'll say what I said before. Zimmerman went looking for trouble and found it. No matter what Martin did,the fact remains Zimmerman ignored the dispatcher's order to stay in the car.
Yes,the order isn't binding but there is no way ZImmerman can say what happened was unavoidable,because it most certainly wasn't.

[Kulindahr]

Weird, isn't it, how this horrifying dystopia hasn't occured anywhere in Europe? O.o

I wanna see a random street thug MAKE a gun

C-level students made their own guns in wood and metal shop when I was in high school. Given a diagram, it's not that hard, just takes patience.

But the "random street thug" wouldn't be making the guns, the gang bosses would find someone talented to do that -- the "random street thug" would be a customer.

[Rolyo85]

The important part of my post was the first paragraph, not the second one. Europe operates in the way I describe, yet violent gangs with home-made guns don't roam the streets. This argument is absolutely ridiculous. And so is claiming we need weapons designed to KILL in order to "defend" ourselves. Tools of aggression aren't used for protection, they're used for aggression. As this case clearly indicates.

[Kulindahr]

The important part of my post was the first paragraph, not the second one. Europe operates in the way I describe, yet violent gangs with home-made guns don't roam the streets. This argument is absolutely ridiculous. And so is claiming we need weapons designed to KILL in order to "defend" ourselves. Tools of aggression aren't used for protection, they're used for aggression. As this case clearly indicates.

You still haven't figured out that the U.S. is fundamentally different from Europe or a European-style country? I thought the first paragraph was a throw-away just repeated as a matter of form.

And even with the most conservative estimates of gun use, they're used more often to stop crime than to commit it.

Besides which, guns aren't designed "to kill", they're designed to deliver a projectile to a desired point. What use is made of that is up to the one holding the gun.

To use an statistical analysis technique beloved of liberals: most guns are never fired toward a human being, therefore the purpose of guns isn't to harm human beings.

[Rolyo85]

An I even supposed to dignify that with an answer? -_- Come on, Kuli...

[mitchymo]

Weird, isn't it, how this horrifying dystopia hasn't occured anywhere in Europe? O.o

I wanna see a random street thug MAKE a gun

Quite right Rolyo. It doesn't matter to pro-gun lobbyists, if you were to point out that gun crime is highest in Finland, and then Switzerland, as far as Europe is concerned, and that Finland, then Switzerland, rank at the top of relaxed gun law nations. It doesn't take a genius to work out that removing guns from society helps to reduce the abuse of guns. Statistics appear to show that crime rates are largely unaffected by guns, or the abscence thereof. But what is most definately true, is that the outcomes have far less negative consequences in nations with less guns.

And even with the most conservative estimates of gun use, they're used more often to stop crime than to commit it.

There is a far more relevant fact that can be made here. Guns are used more often to stop crime - by law abiders. They are used for the opposite purpose by criminals.
Furthermore, the statistics can only be estimated. Quite clearly, as the case of Trayvon shows, people are using their guns to stop crime, where crime doesn't even exist.

Besides which, guns aren't designed "to kill", they're designed to deliver a projectile to a desired point. What use is made of that is up to the one holding the gun.

They were not designed with the intent of the 'desired point' being a tin can, that much is obvious.

[JB3]

I still say the simplest solution is for NOBODY to have a gun in a private citizen capacity. Then NOBODY gets shot, regardless of circumstances. It's very weird to me that some people seem to not see that...

It never works out that way. In Chicago, which up until last year had incredibly strict gun control regulations, gun crime went UP not down. Interestingly enough, when those regulations were taken away, gun crimes began falling rapidly. (Not suggesting cause/effect, but it did happen)

[JohannBessler]

Quite right Rolyo. It doesn't matter to pro-gun lobbyists, if you were to point out that gun crime is highest in Finland, and then Switzerland, as far as Europe is concerned, and that Finland, then Switzerland, rank at the top of relaxed gun law nations..

That's the thing, Mitchy—GUN crime. What about other types of crime?

Doggone it guys, every time I come to the Political Room I get so cotton-pickin' mad that I just want to knock heads, because no one wants to tell the truth.

Is there a way to ban oneself from the Political Forum, and no other forum? I already tried Editing my Hosts File; it doesn't work.

[JB3]

+ 1000

..this will be what eventually does Zimmerman in. That's going to be a very important part in this case...no matter how it plays out.

Except the dispatcher did not give him a lawful order, because he wasn't able to. In the eyes of the law, it was a suggestion that holds no legal weight.

[JB3]

That's the thing, Mitchy—GUN crime. What about other types of crime?

Doggone it guys, every time I come to the Political Room I get so cotton-pickin' mad that I just want to knock heads, because no one wants to tell the truth.

Is there a way to ban oneself from the Political Forum, and no other forum? I already tried Editing my Hosts File; it doesn't work.

Anti-gun zealots never want to tell the whole truth.

[palemale]

I guess it's legal for adults to menace children in Florida. Zimmerman outweigh Trayvon by more than 100 lbs I believe. If Zimmerman provoked a scuffle, or physically confronted Trayvon, Trayvon had the right to fight back and defend himself. This reminds me of the joke about the guy who killed his parents, then begged the judge for mercy because he was an orphan.

[JB3]

I guess it's legal for adults to menace children in Florida. Zimmerman outweigh Trayvon by more than 100 lbs I believe. If Zimmerman provoked a scuffle, or physically confronted Trayvon, Trayvon had the right to fight back and defend himself. This reminds me of the joke about the guy who killed his parents, then begged the judge for mercy because he was an orphan.

And that's why stand your ground isn't applicable. There wouldn't have been a confrontation if Zimmerman didn't initiate one.

[JohannBessler]

Anti-gun zealots never want to tell the whole truth.

The right wing is much worse, though.

Maybe the problem is me.

Maybe it's unrealistic for me to expect people to tell the truth in a political forum, but how is one supposed to make intelligent decisions without knowing the truth?

[Kulindahr]

It doesn't matter to pro-gun lobbyists, if you were to point out that gun crime is highest in Finland, and then Switzerland, as far as Europe is concerned, and that Finland, then Switzerland, rank at the top of relaxed gun law nations. It doesn't take a genius to work out that removing guns from society helps to reduce the abuse of guns.

And there are more automobile accidents on paved roads.

[Kulindahr]

The right wing is much worse, though.

Maybe the problem is me.

Maybe it's unrealistic for me to expect people to tell the truth in a political forum, but how is one supposed to make intelligent decisions without knowing the truth?

Ask Wayne LaPierre.

[mitchymo]

It never works out that way. In Chicago, which up until last year had incredibly strict gun control regulations, gun crime went UP not down. Interestingly enough, when those regulations were taken away, gun crimes began falling rapidly. (Not suggesting cause/effect, but it did happen)

Statistics would show, that in the first 2-3yrs of Chigago introducing strict gun regulations, crime actually fell. This didn't last. The reason for that is obvious. When you have an entire nation of guns, and one city regulates, it attracts criminal activity from outside of the city as well as from criminals within becoming more brazen. Then, when regulation was taken away, the drop in crime reflects those who have no easy target anymore.
Location specific controls don't work well. Either the whole state is subject to the regulations, or no part is.

That's the thing, Mitchy—GUN crime. What about other types of crime?

This is so terribly disingenous. Gun crime is NOT a crime all of its own, is it.

And when you look at the type of crime committed where guns are not involved, they tend to be crimes NOT against the person, i.e. property crime, vehicle theft etc. Crimes such as rape and murder are made no more difficult by the presence of guns, actually helping the criminal in most cases, and only helping the victim in a few.
Overall, the abuse of guns is far more detrimental as a whole, which is why crime rates are higher in the US than in other parts of the West.

The best way to impact crime, is to invest in your police force, not to make it easier for the citizen to get involved. The former police chief of Detroit, remarked how cuts in police levels will see crime rates rise.
Guns or no guns, it is true of everywhere on the planet.
In 2011, homicide was up in Detroit, as was 'justifiable' homicide.

All that guns are doing, is giving the citizen the power to be police, judge, jury and executioner. Its the surefire way to maximise abuse.

The logic of allowing people guns is sensible in theory.
We know that in practice, it does not work well.

[mitchymo]

And that's why stand your ground isn't applicable. There wouldn't have been a confrontation if Zimmerman didn't initiate one.

In all liklihood, there wouldn't have been a confrontation if it wasn't for the existance of STY. Furthermore, in a case where there lacks evidence, you cannot disprove its applicability.

And there are more automobile accidents on paved roads.

Sarcasm doesn't translate well in text (unless you include perhaps).

The point is, that guns make crime easier for criminals, which counterbalances the ease of potential victims to defend themselves.
Crime rates are not affected overall, but the consequences ARE greater.