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  1. #151
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I still say the simplest solution is for NOBODY to have a gun in a private citizen capacity. Then NOBODY gets shot, regardless of circumstances. It's very weird to me that some people seem to not see that...
    It never works out that way. In Chicago, which up until last year had incredibly strict gun control regulations, gun crime went UP not down. Interestingly enough, when those regulations were taken away, gun crimes began falling rapidly. (Not suggesting cause/effect, but it did happen)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntneo(PT) View Post
    + 1000

    ..this will be what eventually does Zimmerman in. That's going to be a very important part in this case...no matter how it plays out.
    Except the dispatcher did not give him a lawful order, because he wasn't able to. In the eyes of the law, it was a suggestion that holds no legal weight.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    That's the thing, Mitchy—GUN crime. What about other types of crime?

    Doggone it guys, every time I come to the Political Room I get so cotton-pickin' mad that I just want to knock heads, because no one wants to tell the truth.

    Is there a way to ban oneself from the Political Forum, and no other forum? I already tried Editing my Hosts File; it doesn't work.
    Anti-gun zealots never want to tell the whole truth.

  4. #154

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    I guess it's legal for adults to menace children in Florida. Zimmerman outweigh Trayvon by more than 100 lbs I believe. If Zimmerman provoked a scuffle, or physically confronted Trayvon, Trayvon had the right to fight back and defend himself. This reminds me of the joke about the guy who killed his parents, then begged the judge for mercy because he was an orphan.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    I guess it's legal for adults to menace children in Florida. Zimmerman outweigh Trayvon by more than 100 lbs I believe. If Zimmerman provoked a scuffle, or physically confronted Trayvon, Trayvon had the right to fight back and defend himself. This reminds me of the joke about the guy who killed his parents, then begged the judge for mercy because he was an orphan.
    And that's why stand your ground isn't applicable. There wouldn't have been a confrontation if Zimmerman didn't initiate one.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    It doesn't matter to pro-gun lobbyists, if you were to point out that gun crime is highest in Finland, and then Switzerland, as far as Europe is concerned, and that Finland, then Switzerland, rank at the top of relaxed gun law nations. It doesn't take a genius to work out that removing guns from society helps to reduce the abuse of guns.
    And there are more automobile accidents on paved roads.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    The right wing is much worse, though.

    Maybe the problem is me.

    Maybe it's unrealistic for me to expect people to tell the truth in a political forum, but how is one supposed to make intelligent decisions without knowing the truth?
    Ask Wayne LaPierre.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    To add to what Mitch said - non-violent people aren't likely to use a gun even if they have one and are threatened. There's a strong chance that gun will be forcefully taken from them in a violent situation and used against them. Not to mention naturally aggressive people who are not criminals but given a weapon in their hands would be trigger happy and seeking a chance to use it. Kuli himself said Americans are more violent than Europeans. So shouldn't it be the other way around then? Guns in Europe, where people are mature and calm enough not to use them, and no guns here when every other redneck wants to prove what a tough man he is?

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    In all liklihood, there wouldn't have been a confrontation if it wasn't for the existance of STY. Furthermore, in a case where there lacks evidence, you cannot disprove its applicability.
    Nonsense. Zimmerman would have initiated a confrontation regardless.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Statistics would show, that in the first 2-3yrs of Chigago introducing strict gun regulations, crime actually fell. This didn't last. The reason for that is obvious. When you have an entire nation of guns, and one city regulates, it attracts criminal activity from outside of the city as well as from criminals within becoming more brazen. Then, when regulation was taken away, the drop in crime reflects those who have no easy target anymore.
    Location specific controls don't work well. Either the whole state is subject to the regulations, or no part is.
    Yeah, no. The statistics show no such thing. The handgun ban in Chicago had NO effect on crime in the city whatsoever.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    That is far more speculative than the statement which I made. Furthermore, Zimmerman would be in jail right now.
    You are speculating that SYG was the cause for the confrontation, while the evidence wholly contradicts that.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    That is not what i am speculating. I am pointing out a basic principle of criminal law here, that guilt rests on 3 factors, intent, motivation and means.

    SYG plays an instrumental part in the 'means' aspect of this case.
    That isn't what you said:

    In all liklihood, there wouldn't have been a confrontation if it wasn't for the existance of STY
    You are saying that without this law, there wouldn't have been a confrontation. Given this individual's past behavior, that is purely speculation on your part. It has nothing to do with the bolded part of your post.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I think it depends on whether his actions would simply be regarded as foolish.

    Can he be charged with murder, if Trayvon assaulted him in self defence, or will this be regarded as provocation for the shooting?
    If Trayvon acted in self-defense, Zimmerman is sunk.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    You are saying that without this law, there wouldn't have been a confrontation. Given this individual's past behavior, that is purely speculation on your part. It has nothing to do with the bolded part of your post.
    I'd say there would have been a confrontation anyway. Zimmerman had a hundred pounds of body weight on Martin, and was plainly determined to intercept this "suspicious" kid. Given that neighbors had already complained about his behavior, I can't see where not having a gun would have made him back off.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'd say there would have been a confrontation anyway. Zimmerman had a hundred pounds of body weight on Martin, and was plainly determined to intercept this "suspicious" kid. Given that neighbors had already complained about his behavior, I can't see where not having a gun would have made him back off.
    That's what I'm saying too. But Mitch seems to think that the only reason why Zimmerman decided to follow the kid was because of Stand Your Ground, and he wouldn't have done it without the law being there.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    That's what I'm saying too. But Mitch seems to think that the only reason why Zimmerman decided to follow the kid was because of Stand Your Ground, and he wouldn't have done it without the law being there.
    It probably would have been a different kind of confrontation, is all.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #167
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager



    Any JUBbers in the Chicago area tomorrow? Come on down!

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post


    Any JUBbers in the Chicago area tomorrow? Come on down!
    Damn, wish I could be there.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    I've been having a very hard time understanding the public outrage over this. Is it sad, yes? But here we have a law which says that you're allowed to use force if you fear physical harm. There is nothing in the law saying you can't go looking for trouble, which people have decided Zimmerman did. Did he fear for his physical health? Witnesses have said they saw Martin beating Zimmerman, and Zimmerman was found at the scene with cuts on the back of his head, a busted nose, and his clothing showing evidence of rolling around on the ground. There is no hard evidence saying that this wasn't self-defense.

    Whatever happened to being innocent until proven guilty? It's times like this that I really hate the media. Yes, it's wonderful that stories get brought to light so we can see what's wrong with this nation, but at the same time it really brings out what's wrong with this nation. A $10,000 bounty on his head? People posting pictures of him on facebook saying "Each like is 100 punches"? The public have already destroyed this man's life. Did he do something wrong? Yes, but according to the court of law, he's fully innocent until proven otherwise.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Non-violent people aren't likely to use a gun even if they have one and are threatened... ...Not to mention naturally aggressive people who are not criminals but given a weapon in their hands would be trigger happy and seeking a chance to use it.
    A significant amount of research has been done on the psychology of bearing a weapon.

    When you slip behind the wheel of a car, your brain automatically begins to think about places you can drive, and how to get there.

    When someone hands you a basketball, your brain automatically begins looking for hoops at which to shoot, and calculating the best angles to get the ball through.

    When someone puts a gun in your hand, your brain automatically begins looking for things to shoot.

    The mere presence of a gun changes the way people think. It changes the dynamic of conflict resolution. An armed person is far more likely to confront those around him aggressively. An unarmed person is far more likely to try to withdraw. That is, in fact, why Florida law used to require that armed persons at least attempt to withdraw from dangerous situations. Paradoxically, SYG encourages confrontation among those who are most able and likely to do harm.

    If George Zimmerman had not chosen to carry a firearm, he would not likely have pursued Trayvon Martin, especially after he was told not to. If George Zimmerman had not chosen to carry a firearem, both he and Trayvon Martin would be alive today.


    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Nonsense. Zimmerman would have initiated a confrontation regardless.
    Maybe. But, SYG encourages confrontation, not withdrawal. Before SYG, Zimmerman would have been legally obligated to try to withdraw. If SYG was not law in Florida, Zimmerman would be in jail at least for breaking the law by initiating a confrontation, if not for killing another human being.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Exactly. Trayvon probably wouldn't be dead.
    I'm thinking that SYG should be implemented as an addition to concealed carry, requiring its own class in conflict avoidance and tactics. The intent of the law was never to enable vigilantes, but to allow citizens to fight back when there was no other choice evident. A guy who outweighs a kid by a hundred pounds can't possibly be in much danger unless that kid is either a high-ranking martial arts student or is carrying something potentially lethal like a baseball bat or ski poles or such.

    Tonight I listened to the guy's friends or neighbors or whoever they were who got interviewed. My gut feeling is they're flat out lying, even though I can't think of a motive for that. And I'm positive that racist, incompetent scrag band calling itself a police department is lying.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #172
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Damn, wish I could be there.
    Me, too. I'd wear my Life Member NRA cap with gold braid and my NRA jacket with its Endowment Member patch. That would attract attention, so if I got lucky I could chew out Wayne LaPierre on national television.

    BTW, I agree with LaPierre that an armed society is a polite society. But getting from here to there can be a bloody bloody mess if it isn't done right.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  23. #173
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    A significant amount of research has been done on the psychology of bearing a weapon.

    When you slip behind the wheel of a car, your brain automatically begins to think about places you can drive, and how to get there.

    When someone hands you a basketball, your brain automatically begins looking for hoops at which to shoot, and calculating the best angles to get the ball through.

    When someone puts a gun in your hand, your brain automatically begins looking for things to shoot.
    That doesn't fit anyone I've ever known who has firearms and shoots anywhere near regularly. The first thing that comes to my mind when I strap on a sidearm is the sincere hope and prayer that everyone around me that day will stay civilized, so I won't even have to think about touching it. The next is the need for constant vigilance to make sure no one else gains control of my weapon. The third is the immense responsibility I'm assuming for the safety of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The mere presence of a gun changes the way people think. It changes the dynamic of conflict resolution. An armed person is far more likely to confront those around him aggressively. An unarmed person is far more likely to try to withdraw. That is, in fact, why Florida law used to require that armed persons at least attempt to withdraw from dangerous situations. Paradoxically, SYG encourages confrontation among those who are most able and likely to do harm.
    Sure it changes the way people think. But the only people it will make aggressive are the ones who want to be aggressive anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Maybe. But, SYG encourages confrontation, not withdrawal. Before SYG, Zimmerman would have been legally obligated to try to withdraw. If SYG was not law in Florida, Zimmerman would be in jail at least for breaking the law by initiating a confrontation, if not for killing another human being.
    I wonder if SYG negated the principle of non-escalation, too.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    A significant amount of research has been done on the psychology of bearing a weapon.

    When you slip behind the wheel of a car, your brain automatically begins to think about places you can drive, and how to get there.

    When someone hands you a basketball, your brain automatically begins looking for hoops at which to shoot, and calculating the best angles to get the ball through.

    When someone puts a gun in your hand, your brain automatically begins looking for things to shoot.

    The mere presence of a gun changes the way people think. It changes the dynamic of conflict resolution. An armed person is far more likely to confront those around him aggressively. An unarmed person is far more likely to try to withdraw. That is, in fact, why Florida law used to require that armed persons at least attempt to withdraw from dangerous situations. Paradoxically, SYG encourages confrontation among those who are most able and likely to do harm.

    If George Zimmerman had not chosen to carry a firearm, he would not likely have pursued Trayvon Martin, especially after he was told not to. If George Zimmerman had not chosen to carry a firearem, both he and Trayvon Martin would be alive today.




    Maybe. But, SYG encourages confrontation, not withdrawal. Before SYG, Zimmerman would have been legally obligated to try to withdraw. If SYG was not law in Florida, Zimmerman would be in jail at least for breaking the law by initiating a confrontation, if not for killing another human being.
    THAT!

    I am surprised Kuli didn't reply to it. That's how I view it, that's how the rest of the Western world views it. The cowboys here though grew up thinking not having a gun emasculates them somehow...


    Edit: Ah, he did. Sorry, those are very vague answers. And I don't see why you're defending HIS point - yes, violent people would be even more prone to violence, especially with laws that encourage them to seek confrontation. That's an argument AGAINST gun possession, not FOR it.

    So far I haven't seen a decent argument explaining why having a gun is BETTER than not having one and how the present gun laws are making America a safer place than the UK for example.

    I repeat - a gun is a weapon for killing things or dealing serious and often permanent damage to them. It's not a tazer, it's not a pepper spray. It maims and kills. You do not need an instrument of murder to defend yourself. You need an instrument of defense to defend yourself. You need an instrument of murder to commit murder.

    It's really THAT simple.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Maybe. But, SYG encourages confrontation, not withdrawal. Before SYG, Zimmerman would have been legally obligated to try to withdraw. If SYG was not law in Florida, Zimmerman would be in jail at least for breaking the law by initiating a confrontation, if not for killing another human being.
    You're stretching a bit there. Just following someone or saying something is not enough to be charged with anything. If Zimmerman laid a hand on him first, yes, he would be charged. But if he was swung at by TW, he wouldn't. (granted, this is all theoretical. But SYG no more encourages confrontation than any one of us being alive does)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    SYG gives you incentive to not shy away from it. Combine that with confrontational urges and it is exactly an encouragement for confrontation. Which would be fine if you had a pepper spray as your only weapon as I said in my edit above.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That doesn't fit anyone I've ever known who has firearms and shoots anywhere near regularly.
    Just because you have anecdotal alternative impressions does not change what we know of human psychology.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The first thing that comes to my mind when I strap on a sidearm is the sincere hope and prayer that everyone around me that day will stay civilized, so I won't even have to think about touching it. The next is the need for constant vigilance to make sure no one else gains control of my weapon. The third is the immense responsibility I'm assuming for the safety of others.
    In other words, you have to exert quite an effort to think about your gun and not do something stupid with it.

    That's exactly my point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I wonder if SYG negated the principle of non-escalation, too.
    Obviously, it does. Under SYG, there is no such thing as escalation - only increasingly necessary means of "self-defense."

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    You're stretching a bit there. Just following someone or saying something is not enough to be charged with anything. If Zimmerman laid a hand on him first, yes, he would be charged. But if he was swung at by TW, he wouldn't. (granted, this is all theoretical. But SYG no more encourages confrontation than any one of us being alive does)
    Sure it does, for a small portion of the population. They're the kind who think they're tough and go strutting about as though they're superior (even if only mentally). Let them out with a gun, they'll think they have reason to believe they're tough; give them reason to think they can be rude, offensive, and aggressive and believe they can fall back on their firearm if things get rough, and confrontation is encouraged.

    I consider these people extra terrestrials -- terrestrials we could really do without. But there's no way of screening for them unless you want a government-paid program to use personality tests and such.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    SYG gives you incentive to not shy away from it. Combine that with confrontational urges and it is exactly an encouragement for confrontation. Which would be fine if you had a pepper spray as your only weapon as I said in my edit above.
    Pepper spray just makes some people mad. There was a guy in the area here who almost got killed after pepper spraying a guy, not too far back.

    A taser is nice, but when cops came to my mom's place last year to evict a squatter from my RV, he assaulted and injured one in spite of having those barbs in him, discharging. Then they had to get him medical attention when the second cop hit him with an additional taser.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Just because you have anecdotal alternative impressions does not change what we know of human psychology.
    Since I have no knowledge of any such study, and since I've gone shooting with dozens of people, sure it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    In other words, you have to exert quite an effort to think about your gun and not do something stupid with it.

    That's exactly my point.
    That's your imagination at work. Even when I go out shooting, I have to make myself choose a target. I have no desire to just shoot things, and I've never had any desire to do "something stupid" with it -- nor, again, have any of the people I've ever shot with. I have to have a rational reason to shoot something.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Obviously, it does. Under SYG, there is no such thing as escalation - only increasingly necessary means of "self-defense."
    If the law doesn't state so, then it doesn't nullify the non-escalation principle.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    ^ I would link you to the scientific studies, but I have observed that science makes no impression on you, when it comes to guns.

    This is a religion for you, and your god does not respond to evidence, reason, scholarship, or data.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Even when I go out shooting, I have to make myself choose a target. I have no desire to just shoot things...
    If you have no desire to "just shoot things," why do you go out and shoot at targets in the first place?

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Pepper spray just makes some people mad. There was a guy in the area here who almost got killed after pepper spraying a guy, not too far back.

    A taser is nice, but when cops came to my mom's place last year to evict a squatter from my RV, he assaulted and injured one in spite of having those barbs in him, discharging. Then they had to get him medical attention when the second cop hit him with an additional taser.
    It fascinates me that someone as intelligent as you doesn't see how you're contradicting yourself. Yet again what you say are arguments FOR more gun control. Do you notice the difference between your examples and the one this topic is built on? Let me give you a hint - yours lack fatalities. You seem to just accept it as a starting point that fatalities are ok in a confrontation if you should be threatened. I do not.


    I am still waiting for a relevant argument FOR gun laws and comparison with Europe. I refuse to accept the idea that people in Europe are somehow magically different and therefore a comparison is impossible.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    In the "quite interesting" department, I just paid a visit to the NRA website, where as an Endowment Member I intended to make my opinion known. But every time I tried to leave a message on the legislative page, all I got was messages about technical difficulties.

    Maybe they're getting swamped by irate members?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    ^ I would link you to the scientific studies, but I have observed that science makes no impression on you, when it comes to guns.

    This is a religion for you, and your god does not respond to evidence, reason, scholarship, or data.
    Science definitely makes an impression. But most of the anti-gun stuff people link to is trash science, flawed in methodology.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    If you have no desire to "just shoot things," why do you go out and shoot at targets in the first place?
    Practice. Why else? That, and to exercise a skill.

    Do you think people play golf because they have some desire to hit things? or to knock things into holes?
    Do people take driving lessons because they have a desire to race about like madmen everywhere?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  35. #185
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It fascinates me that someone as intelligent as you doesn't see how you're contradicting yourself. Yet again what you say are arguments FOR more gun control. Do you notice the difference between your examples and the one this topic is built on? Let me give you a hint - yours lack fatalities. You seem to just accept it as a starting point that fatalities are ok in a confrontation if you should be threatened. I do not.
    How irrational! The failure of the things you want to replace guns is an argument FOR gun control?

    Guns stop the threat. Pepper spray and tasers do not do so dependably.

    If you don't think fatalities are okay, that's fine for you. But since I own my life, not you, it's my choice of how to protect it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I am still waiting for a relevant argument FOR gun laws and comparison with Europe. I refuse to accept the idea that people in Europe are somehow magically different and therefore a comparison is impossible.
    The relevant argument is that it's a right. That European countries are deficient in human rights is not something I'm going to bother myself with.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    How irrational! The failure of the things you want to replace guns is an argument FOR gun control?

    Guns stop the threat. Pepper spray and tasers do not do so dependably.

    If you don't think fatalities are okay, that's fine for you. But since I own my life, not you, it's my choice of how to protect it.
    Not when your choice of protection leads to someone else's death. Then you are infringing on someone else's rights (I know how much you love talking about rights). Guns stop the threat by KILLING A PERSON. An argument can't get more absurd than that. This is vigilante territory - taking the law into your own hands. And if you trust yourself to be all moral and mature about it, I do not know you, and it horrifies me that I have to trust you too. And what's worse - I have to also trust that every simpleminded, drunk, homophobic, violent redneck I may end up stumbling upon by accident would share your thoughtfulness and won't kill me for fun just because he happens to be in a bad/crazy mood and has a gun available.

    I am sorry, but you really aren't making sense here. Yes, the other means are flawed. They are flawed in that they are NOT FINAL. Most aggressors will stop at the threat of being tazed or sprayed the same way as by the threat of a gun.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The relevant argument is that it's a right. That European countries are deficient in human rights is not something I'm going to bother myself with.
    I'm just going to calmly call Wild West bullshit on that. I am not even going to bother checking whether it is defined anywhere as a right. the very idea that you have a right to a lethal weapon is about half a step behind the idea that you have a right to shoot people you don't like.

    And it is also a very immature way of answering my question. I ask for valid reasons, not debatable morality and "rights". If you don't want to offer any such reasons, I'll just have to accept that you really are not logical about this issue as was suggested by someone earlier in this page, and calmly step back before I get shot...

  37. #187
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Here's a link I think y'all would be interested in. It is things everyone should know about Treyvon. It has links to just about anything that happened since the murder.

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...tin-1995-2012/

    What Everyone Should Know About Trayvon Martin (1995-2012)

    By Judd Legum on Mar 18, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    On February 26, 2012, a 17-year-old African-American named Trayvon Martin was shot and killed in Sanford, Florida. The shooter was George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old white man. (Zimmerman was described by the police as white. According to his family he is also Hispanic.) Zimmerman admits killing Martin, but claims he was acting in self-defense. Weeks after Martin’s death, no arrest has been made and Zimmerman remains free.

    Here is what everyone should know about the case:
    Last edited by White Eagle; March 26th, 2012 at 09:53 AM. Reason: stuff
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  38. #188
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    … this law, supposedly affords people the right to not walk away from a threat, when they COULD, in order to protect them when there is NOTHING else that they can do (i.e., COULDN'T get away).
    Under the castle doctrine, homeowners are not required to flee from someone who is threatening them at the place of their residence. The doctrine allows them to remain in place and defend themselves, to perhaps include the use of deadly force.*

    Should the homeowner be required to exit the premises, rather than remain in place and attempt to protect their life or the lives of other members of their family?

    The point of my question is to determine if you think there is any circumstance in which a person may justifiably use deadly force – even though he/she may have a reasonable opportunity to escape from someone who appears intent to inflict serious physical/bodily harm.


    *(The principle may be variable with regard to specific circumstances or applications, according to laws in each respective jurisdiction.)

  39. #189

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Here's a link I think y'all would be interested in. It is things everyone should know about Treyvon. It has links to just about anything that happened since the murder.

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...tin-1995-2012/
    Here's some more info you should know ....

    He was staying with his father's girlfriend because he had been suspended from school for possession of a bag that had traces of marijuana in it.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...t-trayvon.html

    Trayvon's mother has applied for two trademarks of her son's name. Not you usual way to morn a child who has been killed

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/tr...ademark?page=0

    Former NAACP chapter president, "C. L. Bryant is accussing Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton of "exploiting" theTrayvon Martin tradegy to "racially divide this country.""

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/fo...rayvon-martin/

    It's time for everyone to chill and let justice take it's course. It's one of the things that makes the USA special.

  40. #190
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    This is a bullshit argument, sorry kuli .
    This argument is ridiculous, that this law, supposedly affords people the right to not walk away from a threat, when they COULD, in order to protect them when there is NOTHING else that they can do (i.e., COULDN'T get away). Can you see the hypocrisy there?
    Really? Check the debate in the Florida legislature. Ask the guys who wrote the law. Frak, even ask Wayne LaPierre, who was ectstatic about passage of the law!

    The law used to require people to run away even if it would get them killed, at least outside their own homes. The point of this was that if they couldn't get away safely, they no longer had to run and expose themselves to assault, possibly lethal.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Then SYG is a completely unnecessary law, since if you cannot distance yourself from a threat, you have a right to self defence anyway. All that SYG does, is give people the protection of law that allows them not to keep the peace. Its a law that favours the crook, the dumbass's, and the irresponsible.
    Without the SYG, you MIGHT have a self-defense plea, but you'd sit in jail and have massive bail to get loose.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    You can't make the assumption that someone, 'can't possibly', be threatened by someone half their size and age. The mentality of those involved is just as important as the physicality.
    I already gave the qualifiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Even at the cost of other innocent lives? That is not the attitude of somebody who respects the right to life.
    Absolutely it is -- it doesn't make everyone prey to those who want to do violence. And there's no intent to take innocent lives -- if you want to argue that, we may as well make everyone go naked and not allow anything pointed or weighting more than maybe a half pound.

    Think of it as evolution in action.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    There, thats better.
    You always want to decrease liberty. Decreasing liberty does not reduce safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Europe is deficient? Then why is the US the one that is sick?
    They're both sick -- just with different diseases.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  41. #191
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The law in Florida lets people take the law into their own hands, and at that point it's an irrational law and there is no legal defense of it. We can't have a bunch of vigilantes in this country with guns anymore... something has to change. Gun rights need to be restricted. And frivolous laws like the one in Florida need to be removed immediately.
    No, it only makes people think that. All the hype in the press about the law was "You don't have to run away! Shoot if you feel threatened!" But that isn't what the law says, nor is it the intent.

    It would have been ironic justice if someone who heard Martin's calls for help had seen Zimmerman attacking someone much smaller -- and shot Zimmerman.

    All that's needed is for the Florida legislature to pass a resolution -- it doesn't even have to be a new law -- restating the purpose and what isn't the purpose of the law. Though if I had my druthers, all concealed carry license holders would be required to take a "Stand Your Ground" class on how to resolve things peacefully, and the line when peacefulness could be abandoned.

    Zimmerman wasn't even on the same planet as a legitimate application of the law.

    It occurs to me that the writers of the law (the outline came from Wayne LaPierre and his friends) made a very basic mistake with legislation: they assumed everyone understood the subject the way they did. This time their mistake cost a life.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  42. #192
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Should the homeowner be required to exit the premises, rather than remain in place and attempt to protect their life or the lives of other members of their family?

    The point of my question is to determine if you think there is any circumstance in which a person may justifiably use deadly force – even though he/she may have a reasonable opportunity to escape from someone who appears intent to inflict serious physical/bodily harm.
    You already answered it: if there are other lives at stake, the citizen shouldn't be required to withdraw if he's their defense -- and that should apply to place of business, too.

    But defensive shooting in public spaces -- street, park, mall -- is an entirely different thing. It takes more thorough tactical thinking, for starters. I seriously think anyone wanting to carry in public should have to take a tactical defense class for public spaces.

    And at the moment, that would disqualify me; I've had a general defensive tactics class, but it didn't focus much on public situations.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  43. #193
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    It's completely immaterial to this case about what they found in his bag. Trace amounts of marijuana isn't justification for what Zimmerman did.
    Even right-wing elephangelical prophet Pat Robertson would agree with that -- he says legalize the stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Trayvon's mother may be creating a foundation for her son. Simple as that. A sort of legal foundation.
    Bingo. And as this case is going to head up the ladder, she may be thinking about legal expenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Why are you telling us to chill? What is so special here about what is going on? You've seen such a major failure at the local level that the local police chief has had to step aside. Local justice has been mishandled, so I hope the DOJ and FBI can find a way to intervene in this case and make it a federal case (which they would have to prove that the attack was based on racist motives).
    Bullseye. My bet is the local chief resigned because he wants to be out of the wa, and hopefully not get pegged for the racist, corrupt, incompetent jerk he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    This country has failed Trayvon legally. And this country is definitely suffering... someone said Europe is deficient. If that's the case, this country is far beyond help and suffering from a serious cancer in comparison. Certain people, myself included, are anti-gun. That doesn't mean they are anti-liberty.
    If you deny my right to defend myself as I choose, you make me into easy prey. That's anti-liberty.

    But that doesn't even apply here. The information given in this thread is enough to know that Zimmerman wasn't defending, he was attacking. There is no right to attack. He's a murderer, plain and simple.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  44. #194
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Actually, that's not true. It is basically what the overbroad law says. The law should be challenged on its merits and thrown out because it meets exactly the definition of what I said. It's a vague law and it has no justification.
    Understood under standard legal doctrine, the law isn't vague. Taken out of that... average citizens will think it says what it doesn't.

    This is a case that illustrates one factor why I think lawyers shouldn't be involved in government: they don't speak our language. This may be one of a very small set of points where I agree on something with Rush Limbaugh: he's supported what's been called the "Ordinary language amendment", which would require that laws pertinent to ordinary citizens be written in ordinary language that those citizens understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    If they don't do that, I still think the law can be challenged on its merit as being too vague. See even you admit that there needs to be a revision of the law. My problem is with these "stand your ground" laws is they allow too many uneducated people to take the law into their own hands.
    They don't allow people to take the law into their own hands, they just make people think so -- and the media have been co-conspirators in making people think that.

    But I doubt Florida will even pass a resolution clarifying and stating the intent very specifically -- Marion Hammer, a good NRA president once but now the chief NRA attack hound lobbyist will go into high gear and lean on everyone involved.

    I know I'm only one of a couple of thousand Endowment Members of the NRA, but I'm going to do my best to lean on Marion Hammer.

    I may have to resort to snail mail -- their site is still having difficulties.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    In other words, they may not even read the law... but only see "stand your ground" and make an interpretation.
    That's exactly what Wayne LaPierre's propaganda machine did, and the press did it in a different way. Result: sub-human barbarians like Zimmerman think they can just go shoot people they don't approve of.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    This is exactly my problem with the law. It's too vague and it doesn't make clear definitions.
    For common people, yes. Many of us familiar with gun laws -- because we have to be -- get it right off. People who aren't so familiar . . . not even a bit.

    They need that resolution. And if they won't do that, a federal court needs to order them to clarify it, suspending it until they do.


    The more I read, the more I'm pissed. I'm wishing right now that Wayne LaPierre would get subpoenaed to testify, and get his name dragged through the mud so deep that other NRA members will join me in saying he's got to go.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  45. #195
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    Oh, I know!

    Can you just imagine? They actually found marijuana in his bag. Marijuana! The horror!

    How can we live with such a monster? I thank I'm goanna faint.

    <grasps for smelling salts>
    Ten pounds of marijuana wouldn't have been justification.

    Might have been enough to bribe the asshole to go away, though.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  46. #196
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Kerrville
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Something I found that is Pretty Cool.

    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/atta...1&d=1332796414

    Miami Heat.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails MiamiHeat.jpg  
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  47. #197
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Kuli - do you seriously think that in an environment where you are part of a community, you should have the liberty to defend yourself any way you want? What happens when I want to defend myself with an eclectic fence, a trench with alligators and molten tar? Also what if I feel that only a rocket launcher will guarantee my safety while outside? Or even better - a hand grenade?

    I mean, would you take away my liberty to defend myself as I see fit?

    I am a huge fan of not allowing paranoia to dictate laws...

  48. #198

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    lol For sure.

    I was just making fun of Jack Springer's insinuation.

    <turns around to face Jack Springer>

    JackSpringer, surely that's the silliest argument you have ever offered us.
    I didn't suspend the guy from school -- the school district did.

    Don't make the guy into a saint that he isn't.

    No comment on the mother trying to make money off her son's name. Interesting, but not surprising.

  49. #199

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Something I found that is Pretty Cool.

    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/atta...1&d=1332796414

    Miami Heat.
    Also, the common uniform of someone robbing a liquor store.

  50. #200
    The Boy Next Door LuvFindsAndyHardy's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    No comment on the mother trying to make money off her son's name. Interesting, but not surprising.
    Actually there WAS a comment. You were so busy smearing the dead kid and his mother that you missed it. It may very well be that she doesn't want other people to make money from his name or that she is starting something like a foundation. It's curious you want everyone to "chill" and wait for the facts when it comes to Zimmerman yet you are ready to assume (with NO facts) that his mother is already planning a clothing line or some such money making scheme.

    You are also going out of your way to give irrelevant tidbits (such as the marijuana and suspension) to paint a specific picture of the victim as though these things might justify Zimmerman feeling threatened enough to shoot. Very strange.

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