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  1. #101
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Come on now, you're not as dense as you're pretending to be. If he has any defensive wounds at all, his lawyers are going to make the case that he was defending himself. I bet he's as clean as a whistle, however.
    Yes, of course the lawyers will argue that any wounds on Zimmerman exonerate him of guilt under "Stand Your Ground."

    The point is that that is a stupid reason to acquit someone of murder. Perpetrators should not be allowed to attack people, then prove innocence on the grounds that their victims tried to defend themselves. So, why does Florida sanction such stupidity?


    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    It doesn't encourage conflict or people to get in life-threatening situations. All the law says is that if your life is threatened in a confrontation, you can respond with deadly force. That's it.
    Of course it encourages people to get into life-threatening confrontations.

    The law used to require people to avoid conflict. Now, it exonerates them from legal responsibility for the outcome of conflict.


    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    The purpose of the law was to prevent people that WERE retreating from being killed or seriously injured by an aggressor that doesn't walk away.
    No. The purpose of the law was to encourage people to carry firearms by reducing the liability for any bad consequences which might arise from doing so. The bill was sponsored by the NRA. People who were retreating from conflict were already permitted to defend themselves. Under SYG, gun owners are also permitted to attack.

    That's why SYG is often called the "Shoot first, ask questions later" statute.

  2. #102
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Lest anyone think that the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin case in Florida is some kind of fluke, it's not. It has drawn international attention because of its racist overtones and the fact that the victim was a child. But there have been other, similar cases as well.

    The case of Trevor Dooley/David James is before the Florida court even now.

    In September 2010, David James was playing basketball with his 8 y.o. daughter on a court in Valrico, FL. A kid began using the court to skateboard. A bystander, Trevor Dooley, told the kid he was not allowed to skateboard there. David James stood up for the skateboarder. James and Dooley got into an argument over this, which ended with Dooley shooting James dead. James was armed only with a basketball.

    In the past, Dooley would clearly have been guilty of murder. In the past, Florida law required beligerents to withdraw from a situation of conflict. Under "Stand Your Ground," however, Dooley may legitimately claim he felt threatened by James and was merely "standing his ground." Under "Stand Your Ground," the prosecutors must prove that Dooley could not have felt threatened by James, an almost impossible requirement.

    A decision has yet to be made in the Dooley case. He may yet be found guilty - if prosecutors can "prove" that he could not have felt threatened by the unarmed man with whom he was arguing. But, what was once a straightforward prosecution of murder now becomes a probable acquittal of murderer. Florida prosecutors report that they are today more reluctant to pursue charges of murder (even when murder is obvious), because "Stand Your Ground" sometimes turns what we once called "murder" into "standing your ground."

    Stand Your Ground has been a disaster.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/opinio...tin/index.html

  3. #103
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    All that is necessary "to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm" is for the participants in a conflict to withdraw.
    . . . .

    The law used to require that. Now, under "Stand Your Ground," Florida law not only encourages Floridians to carry guns, but it reassures them that there is no need to withdraw from conflict when dangerous situations arise. In addition, SYG makes it more difficult to prosecute murder through the criminal justice system.
    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    It doesn't encourage conflict or people to get in life-threatening situations. All the law says is that if your life is threatened in a confrontation, you can respond with deadly force. That's it. The purpose of the law was to prevent people that WERE retreating from being killed or seriously injured by an aggressor that doesn't walk away.
    But it's not a wide-open authorization -- deadly force has to be necessary "to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm". If fleeing will end the possibility of that, then flight is to be used -- deadly force is authorized ONLY if that's the only way to end the threat.

    And it doesn't cover you if you initiated a confrontation.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #104
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Lest anyone think that the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin case in Florida is some kind of fluke, it's not. It has drawn international attention because of its racist overtones and the fact that the victim was a child. But there have been other, similar cases as well.

    The case of Trevor Dooley/David James is before the Florida court even now.

    In September 2010, David James was playing basketball with his 8 y.o. daughter on a court in Valrico, FL. A kid began using the court to skateboard. A bystander, Trevor Dooley, told the kid he was not allowed to skateboard there. David James stood up for the skateboarder. James and Dooley got into an argument over this, which ended with Dooley shooting James dead. James was armed only with a basketball.

    In the past, Dooley would clearly have been guilty of murder. In the past, Florida law required beligerents to withdraw from a situation of conflict. Under "Stand Your Ground," however, Dooley may legitimately claim he felt threatened by James and was merely "standing his ground." Under "Stand Your Ground," the prosecutors must prove that Dooley could not have felt threatened by James, an almost impossible requirement.

    A decision has yet to be made in the Dooley case. He may yet be found guilty - if prosecutors can "prove" that he could not have felt threatened by the unarmed man with whom he was arguing. But, what was once a straightforward prosecution of murder now becomes a probable acquittal of murderer. Florida prosecutors report that they are today more reluctant to pursue charges of murder (even when murder is obvious), because "Stand Your Ground" sometimes turns what we once called "murder" into "standing your ground."

    Stand Your Ground has been a disaster.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/opinio...tin/index.html
    They've got to get the "reasonable" requirement slotted where it is with all other laws: that "reasonable" means that any reasonable person would think so in that situation. No reasonable person would find someone "armed" with a basketball to be a mortal threat. No reasonable person would find someone "armed" with Skittles to be a mortal threat.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  5. #105
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    But it's not a wide-open authorization -- deadly force has to be necessary "to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm". If fleeing will end the possibility of that, then flight is to be used -- deadly force is authorized ONLY if that's the only way to end the threat.
    ANY argument with almost any other party can be considered a reasonable threat of "imminent death or great bodily harm." "He was bigger than me." "He tried to punch me." "I thought he might have a weapon." Under "Stand Your Ground," there is almost no situation in which you cannot somehow justify the use of deadly force.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    And it doesn't cover you if you initiated a confrontation.
    As far as "initiating a confrontation," has there ever been a conflict in the history of civilization in which it was not "the other guy" who started it? Even Zimmerman, who clearly pursued and initiated a confrontation with Martin, will claim he was "just defending himself" when Martin went crazy and tried to kill him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    They've got to get the "reasonable" requirement slotted where it is with all other laws: that "reasonable" means that any reasonable person would think so in that situation. No reasonable person would find someone "armed" with a basketball to be a mortal threat. No reasonable person would find someone "armed" with Skittles to be a mortal threat.
    There is almost always some "reasonable" suspicion in any conflict that you might be somehow significantly harmed. "I thought that bag of skittles in his hand was a rock." "He looked like he was going to take a swing at me." "I thought he had a gun." "He threatened to kill me." "I thought that tea was a bottle of acid he was going to throw on me." Etc., etc., etc.

    It's a confrontation. Confrontation means, almost by definition, that you feel threatened. Therefore, every confrontation is a reason for deadly force, under this ridiculous law.

    "Stand Your Ground" laws are stupid beyond belief. But what's even stupider is that people continue to insist that such laws - for all the harm they have done - make for good public policy. Only someone who believes that Obama is a Muslim, or that he was born in Kenya, or that global climate change is a conspiracy of climatologists, or that "intelligent design" is science, or that gay marriage will harm families, could believe in something that stupid.

  6. #106

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    The reaction from some black parents is illuminating:

    My daughter is only six years old, yet I find myself teaching her "the rules" without even knowing it. "The rules" are do's and don'ts for African Americans living in a racist society. My parents taught me "the rules" because they knew what the world was like for African Americans. "The rules" include:

    • Don't touch anything when you go into stores.

    • Always ask for a bag for the items you purchased.

    • Go where you say you are going and come straight home.

    • Know who you are. You can't do everything they do.

    • Recognize that if you choose a boyfriend of another ethnic group, you might face criticism and even violence from others.

    The whole episode is really ghastly. Just another statistic to add to the 8,000+ Americans who die each year by the gun.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...rents-reaction

  7. #107
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    The Zimmerman dude is hispanic ... not white.

    Let justice take it's course ... people like the crazy man, Rev. Al, need to stay away. He should be at home mourning his mother's death like any other person would do ... but Al can'd resist more money, more fame.
    This only shows you didn't read the thread. We all talked about him being white-latino. I can't see where I said he was white.
    Al is doing what needs to be done. Bring to the front that this racist pig killed Trayvon.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  8. #108

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    This only shows you didn't read the thread. We all talked about him being white-latino. I can't see where I said he was white.
    Al is doing what needs to be done. Bring to the front that this racist pig killed Trayvon.
    The man is hispanic not white. Most people call Obama black -- he's even said the kid killed could have been his son.

    Yet you'd call Obama a white-black person?

    Get real man. This sad killing is being used to start a race war between whites and blacks by people like Rev. Al, Jesse Jackson .. and to some extent President Obama. Very sad.

    President Obama, Rev. Al, Jesse, and especially you should feel the pain and suffering of all the black people killed in cities around the US by fellow blacks. Stop that killing and you've accomplished something.

    Let the justice system work.

  9. #109
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    This sad killing is being used to start a race war between whites and blacks by people like Rev. Al, Jesse Jackson .. and to some extent President Obama. Very sad.
    Indeed. The president is trying to start a race war.

    Sometimes, there are no words to describe what I read in this forum.

    I think I have figured out Jack's secret identity. He is Kim Jong-un's press secretary.

  10. #110
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    How can there be any guarantee, that 'what went down', actually did, unless there is critical evidence. If that evidence doesn't exist to disprove a law abuser's explanation, they'll get away with murder.
    Except it's on record that he initiated a confrontation.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  11. #111
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Today Zimmermans lawyer said Zimm has a broken nose and injuries to the back of his head,. I wonder which officer did the damage.
    With all the past crimes he has committed I believe he has something on the police dept. They are protecting him too much. Keep him out of jail and he won't talk.
    And Jack, you keep saying I said he was white. Show me where I said that. I don't know what you are drinking or smoking but please quit all your assumptions.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  12. #112

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Today Zimmermans lawyer said Zimm has a broken nose and injuries to the back of his head,. I wonder which officer did the damage.
    With all the past crimes he has committed I believe he has something on the police dept. They are protecting him too much. Keep him out of jail and he won't talk.
    And Jack, you keep saying I said he was white. Show me where I said that. I don't know what you are drinking or smoking but please quit all your assumptions.
    Read the links in your own posts man.

  13. #113
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Today Zimmermans lawyer said Zimm has a broken nose and injuries to the back of his head,. I wonder which officer did the damage.
    With all the past crimes he has committed I believe he has something on the police dept. They are protecting him too much. Keep him out of jail and he won't talk.
    And Jack, you keep saying I said he was white. Show me where I said that. I don't know what you are drinking or smoking but please quit all your assumptions.
    It doesn't really matter is "Zimmerman" has broken bones, bruises or a concussion; he picked a fight with someone half his size, and half his age and brought out a gun to settle it. I understand that this is his lawyer's spin but people will leap on it to justify the shooting of an unarmed teenager minding his business.

  14. #114

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Indeed. The president is trying to start a race war.

    Sometimes, there are no words to describe what I read in this forum.

    I think I have figured out Jack's secret identity. He is Kim Jong-un's press secretary.
    Oh c'mon now. Kim Jong-un is much more intelligent than him.

  15. #115
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    It doesn't really matter is "Zimmerman" has broken bones, bruises or a concussion; he picked a fight with someone half his size, and half his age and brought out a gun to settle it. I understand that this is his lawyer's spin but people will leap on it to justify the shooting of an unarmed teenager minding his business.

    The plot seems to be thickening. There's a witness to the whole episode who claims Martin attacked Zimmerman. There is also physical evidence to support the witnesses account.

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...erman-03232012

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I'm not being case specific here.


    This is absolutely ridiculous. Do you not see how moronic this law is. It is going to reach a point, where the rightful defender, cannot defend themselves if they want justice to be done.

    If this kid did fight back, what is the liklihood that it was self defence? He was unarmed and REALLY having to defend himself.

    If Zimmerman walks free, i't will be a disgrace, and Trayvon's blood will be on the hands of those who constructed this god awful law sin.

    If, as the article suggests, Martin attacked Zimmerman, then Zimmerman had a right under the law to use force. It makes sense as to why he wasn't charged if that's the case.

    This isn't about the relative merits of the law, but the application of the elements of the statute as it exists now. There's a difference.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I hear ya. But as i see it. Trayvon had the reason to be threatened, he had the need to defend himself. The whole incident would NEVER have happened, if Zimmerman had backed the hell off, the kid was on his way home. Now he is dead. Zimmerman instigated the incident from the outset, and legal protection or not, this was murder. Call it justifiable by your laws, but its murder.
    It's certainly a tragedy. I'm just trying to figure out why like everybody else. It's one of those confluences where if one small thing is changed, nothing bad would have happened. Zimmerman having the flu and not going out, Martin taking a different path home, or even going through earlier or later. It's just remarkable how something so small could have such a huge effect on the outcome when you think about it.

  18. #118
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Trayvon had the reason to be threatened, he had the need to defend himself. The whole incident would NEVER have happened, if Zimmerman had backed the hell off, the kid was on his way home. Now he is dead. Zimmerman instigated the incident from the outset, and legal protection or not, this was murder. Call it justifiable by your laws, but its murder.
    If Trayvon Martin had had a gun, and he had felt threatened because some creep was following him, he could have justifiably shot and killed that creep (Zimmerman) because he felt threatened. He would merely have been "standing his ground" in the face of a threat.

    If Zimmerman was following Martin and was challenged by Martin because of it, Zimmerman may justifiably shoot and kill Martin because he felt threatened by Martin's challenge. Zimmerman would merely have been "standing his ground." Martin's self-defense is Zimmerman's threat.

    As you can see, "Stand Your Ground" is a license to kill. There is no such thing as murder in Florida.

    In the past, belligerents in Florida were compelled to withdraw from conflict. Now, they are encouraged to escalate violence by "standing their ground" with a gun.

    "Stand Your Ground" is absurd beyond all reason. That's why Republicans love it!

  19. #119
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    It's certainly a tragedy. I'm just trying to figure out why like everybody else. It's one of those confluences where if one small thing is changed, nothing bad would have happened. Zimmerman having the flu and not going out, Martin taking a different path home, or even going through earlier or later. It's just remarkable how something so small could have such a huge effect on the outcome when you think about it.
    It is probability and statistics. It is the odds that a person (or persons) with a lethal weapon encounters another person or persons under circumstances that at least one of them misinterprets dangerously.

    As more and more people start to carry guns, more and more such encounters will undoubtedly occur. And more and more people will die.

    But at least it won't increase the murder rate, so long as we make it legal with "Stand Your Ground" laws.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    If Trayvon Martin had had a gun, and he had felt threatened because some creep was following him, he could have justifiably shot and killed that creep (Zimmerman) because he felt threatened. He would merely have been "standing his ground" in the face of a threat.

    If Zimmerman was following Martin and was challenged by Martin because of it, Zimmerman may justifiably shoot and kill Martin because he felt threatened by Martin's challenge. Zimmerman would merely have been "standing his ground." Martin's self-defense is Zimmerman's threat.

    As you can see, "Stand Your Ground" is a license to kill. There is no such thing as murder in Florida.

    In the past, belligerents in Florida were compelled to withdraw from conflict. Now, they are encouraged to escalate violence by "standing their ground" with a gun.

    "Stand Your Ground" is absurd beyond all reason. That's why Republicans love it!
    Except that Federal law prohibits people under the age of 18 from possessing handguns.

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-i-5300-2.pdf

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    It is probability and statistics. It is the odds that a person (or persons) with a lethal weapon encounters another person or persons under circumstances that at least one of them misinterprets.

    As more and more people start to carry guns, more and more such encounters will undoubtedly occur. And more and more people will die.

    But at least it won't increase the murder rate, so long as we make it legal with "Stand Your Ground" laws.
    I believe they are categorized as justifiable homicides, locally. The Uniform Crime Report considers any willful killing of another to be "murder" for statistical purposes.

    http://www.ci.durham.nc.us/departmen.../mdr/ucr1.html

  22. #122
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Except that Federal law prohibits people under the age of 18 from possessing handguns.

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-i-5300-2.pdf
    I am aware of that, but the illustration stands. SYG makes murder legal.

    And the fact that "Stand Your Ground" makes life even more dangerous for children than adults just adds irony to its stupidity.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    The plot seems to be thickening. There's a witness to the whole episode who claims Martin attacked Zimmerman. There is also physical evidence to support the witnesses account.

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...erman-03232012
    Does this allegation make a difference? Did Martin have a gun? The dispatcher told fat ass not to follow him.

    There's no plot to thicken. It's only a matter of time before "Zimmerman" is hogtied like the pig that he is by some law enforcement agency.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Except that Federal law prohibits people under the age of 18 from possessing handguns.

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-i-5300-2.pdf
    Hey Jackoroes, I got to thinking on my long flight from the east coast about this incident. And I have a question: Why aren't guns allowed on flights if gun ownerships insures public safety, according to conservatives?

  25. #125
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    Hey Jackoroes, I got to thinking on my long flight from the east coast about this incident. And I have a question: Why aren't guns allowed on flights if gun ownerships insures public safety, according to conservatives?


    There are structural considerations when shooting inside a plane. Not a real good idea to shoot holes in pressurized cabins. But some people (just not you) carry guns on planes. Pilots, Sky Marshals and other Federal law enforcement among them. The Marshals have a special frangible ammo designed to fragment on impact with solid objects so they don't poke holes in the plane, just the bad guy.

  26. #126
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    There are structural considerations when shooting inside a plane. Not a real good idea to shoot holes in pressurized cabins. But some people (just not you) carry guns on planes. Pilots, Sky Marshals and other Federal law enforcement among them. The Marshals have a special frangible ammo designed to fragment on impact with solid objects so they don't poke holes in the plane, just the bad guy.
    Although, occasionally, the pilots will shoot holes in the plane.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-3965159.html

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    Have those pundits over at Fox News gone completely insane?

    Geraldo Rivera said on Fox and Friends that wearing a hooded sweatshirt was responsible for his killing. He said:

    “I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin’s death as George Zimmerman was.”

    Good grief. The shit that comes out of that network is just unreal.

    I Love Geraldo and he's a Legend...I've agreed and disagreed with him on many issues..His statement about the "Hoody" is Insane & Absurd..I have a "Sean-John" Hoody that was given to me as a gift years ago..I will continue to wear it for years to come......I wear Dress-clothes and dress-khakis to work 4 days a week...I've gone into Department stores before & after work in dress clothes and the White Male & Female sales-reps still follow me around or look at me as if I'm up to something..This does not happen every time I shop at a Men's clothing store but it happens and I pretend not to notice.....It's not about the "clothes" it is about the Skin Color..Just call it what it is....

    George Zimmerman has been "trigger happy" and itching to Shoot somebody for a Long ass time....It was gonna happen....
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I am aware of that, but the illustration stands. SYG makes murder legal.

    And the fact that "Stand Your Ground" makes life even more dangerous for children than adults just adds irony to its stupidity.

    The overall violent crime rate in Florida per 100,000 is less than half of what it was in 1990. Homicide in 1990 was 1387. In 2010 it was 987, exactly 400 less. This despite the fact that Florida has an additional 5,500,000 people living there today than in 1990.

    http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/...ent-Crime.aspx

    I've previously pointed out that Florida continues to charge approximately 650 people per year with murder, so it isn't exactly legal is it?

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Although, occasionally, the pilots will shoot holes in the plane.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-3965159.html
    That's technically referred to as an "Oopsie".

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    The overall violent crime rate in Florida per 100,000 is less than half of what it was in 1990. Homicide in 1990 was 1387. In 2010 it was 987, exactly 400 less. This despite the fact that Florida has an additional 5,500,000 people living there today than in 1990.
    Violent crime and homicide has fallen just about everywhere in the USA since 1990. Even in places that do not have "Stand Your Ground."


    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    I've previously pointed out that Florida continues to charge approximately 650 people per year with murder, so it isn't exactly legal is it?
    But successful prosecutions of murder have fallen since SYG was passed in 2005.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    There are structural considerations when shooting inside a plane. Not a real good idea to shoot holes in pressurized cabins. But some people (just not you) carry guns on planes. Pilots, Sky Marshals and other Federal law enforcement among them. The Marshals have a special frangible ammo designed to fragment on impact with solid objects so they don't poke holes in the plane, just the bad guy.
    It's also not a real idea to shoot inside a school or library or park.

    Gun control is permitted in the skies, but not parks where parents take their children?

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    The overall violent crime rate in Florida per 100,000 is less than half of what it was in 1990. Homicide in 1990 was 1387. In 2010 it was 987, exactly 400 less. This despite the fact that Florida has an additional 5,500,000 people living there today than in 1990.
    A decrease in crime seems to be happening in most areas of the US – especially less densely populated places.

    United States Crime Index Rates Per 100,000 Inhabitants [Link]
    Violent:

    1990 = 731.8
    2010 = 403.6 = 55.2% of 1990

    Total:

    1990 = 5,820.3
    2010 = 3,345.5 = 57.4% of 1990

    In all regions, the country appears to be safer. The odds of being murdered or robbed are now less than half of what they were in the early 1990s, when violent crime peaked in the United States.

    Steady Decline in Major Crime Baffles Experts

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Violent crime and homicide has fallen just about everywhere in the USA since 1990. Even in places that do not have "Stand Your Ground."


    But successful prosecutions of murder have fallen since SYG was passed in 2005.

    23 other states have SYG laws that mirror Florida's. That's 46% of the country. Now given that fact, is crime going up or down nationwide?

    Well, murder has been going down every year as far back as I looked, which was 1990. So, you're hard pressed to make the argument that SYG has resulted in mass murder and mayhem.

    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

    As to successfully prosecuting people for murder, it shouldn't be easy to put somebody in jail for the rest of their lives or to execute them. It should be the most difficult case for anybody to make given the stakes.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    It's also not a real idea to shoot inside a school or library or park.

    Gun control is permitted in the skies, but not parks where parents take their children?
    It's not a real good idea to shoot anywhere except a range, if you can avoid it. Sometimes circumstances make that decision for you, unfortunately.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Why the frak would Martin have attacked Zimmerman? What's the motive?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    If the cell phone calls are in indication, Zimmerman confronted him and it turned into a scuffle.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    It's not a real good idea to shoot anywhere except a range, if you can avoid it. Sometimes circumstances make that decision for you, unfortunately.
    However, it's impossible to shoot a mouse if it runs out from under your kitchen stove, because it's out of your range.

    This controversy may be part of the political dialogue all the way to November, or later. I certainly agree with the majority here. If Z. was "threatened," why did he keep chasing Trayvon, even when he was told not to?

    One cannot judge a book by its cover, but Zimmerman's mugshots look like a "Neanderthal redneck thug"...
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    It's not a real good idea to shoot anywhere except a range, if you can avoid it. Sometimes circumstances make that decision for you, unfortunately.
    I still say the simplest solution is for NOBODY to have a gun in a private citizen capacity. Then NOBODY gets shot, regardless of circumstances. It's very weird to me that some people seem to not see that...

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Sorry,no matter what comes out, the fact remains that instead of staying in his car like he was told,Zimmerman got out of it and got into a fight,just like he intended to.
    Self-defense won't fly here,nor should it.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I still say the simplest solution is for NOBODY to have a gun in a private citizen capacity. Then NOBODY gets shot, regardless of circumstances. It's very weird to me that some people seem to not see that...
    Rubbish. Criminals will just make their own guns. It can be done with tools that can be purchased at pretty much any mall. Criminals would be thrilled at the idea of citizens not being able to shoot back.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Rubbish. Criminals will just make their own guns. It can be done with tools that can be purchased at pretty much any mall. Criminals would be thrilled at the idea of citizens not being able to shoot back.
    Weird, isn't it, how this horrifying dystopia hasn't occured anywhere in Europe? O.o

    I wanna see a random street thug MAKE a gun

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    It just amazes me how many witnesses are coming out about a murder that happened almost a month ago. I really do loathe humankind.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    It doesn't really matter is "Zimmerman" has broken bones, bruises or a concussion; he picked a fight with someone half his size, and half his age and brought out a gun to settle it. I understand that this is his lawyer's spin but people will leap on it to justify the shooting of an unarmed teenager minding his business.
    Let me add something to that. The lawyer hadn't talked to Zimmerman yet.
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Read the links in your own posts man.
    How stupid. If it was in the links, I didn't say it.
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    You just quoted a Fox affiliate to a bunch of lefties?

    (Good Lord Almighty. Even a child could see the problem with this.)
    I'll ditto that! How curious that Fox found a witness.
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    I'll say what I said before. Zimmerman went looking for trouble and found it. No matter what Martin did,the fact remains Zimmerman ignored the dispatcher's order to stay in the car.
    Yes,the order isn't binding but there is no way ZImmerman can say what happened was unavoidable,because it most certainly wasn't.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Weird, isn't it, how this horrifying dystopia hasn't occured anywhere in Europe? O.o

    I wanna see a random street thug MAKE a gun
    C-level students made their own guns in wood and metal shop when I was in high school. Given a diagram, it's not that hard, just takes patience.

    But the "random street thug" wouldn't be making the guns, the gang bosses would find someone talented to do that -- the "random street thug" would be a customer.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    The important part of my post was the first paragraph, not the second one. Europe operates in the way I describe, yet violent gangs with home-made guns don't roam the streets. This argument is absolutely ridiculous. And so is claiming we need weapons designed to KILL in order to "defend" ourselves. Tools of aggression aren't used for protection, they're used for aggression. As this case clearly indicates.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    The important part of my post was the first paragraph, not the second one. Europe operates in the way I describe, yet violent gangs with home-made guns don't roam the streets. This argument is absolutely ridiculous. And so is claiming we need weapons designed to KILL in order to "defend" ourselves. Tools of aggression aren't used for protection, they're used for aggression. As this case clearly indicates.
    You still haven't figured out that the U.S. is fundamentally different from Europe or a European-style country? I thought the first paragraph was a throw-away just repeated as a matter of form.

    And even with the most conservative estimates of gun use, they're used more often to stop crime than to commit it.

    Besides which, guns aren't designed "to kill", they're designed to deliver a projectile to a desired point. What use is made of that is up to the one holding the gun.

    To use an statistical analysis technique beloved of liberals: most guns are never fired toward a human being, therefore the purpose of guns isn't to harm human beings.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    An I even supposed to dignify that with an answer? -_- Come on, Kuli...

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