Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

[Kulindahr]

Oh, so to hell with the treatment then???

?? What "treatment"??

[Kulindahr]

The claim of under the stand your ground law is specious at best. Zimmerman was following Martin around an area that wasn't even his own property.

Zimmerman was acting as a self appointed town watchman. Watching for suspicious people and reporting what you see to authorities is great. Getting involved where you have no lawful authority to do so, is not.

It's got nothing to do with Florida's gun laws or stand your ground. It appears to have everything to do with cold blooded murder. If it was, Florida has a working death penalty that would be appropriate in this instance.

And the statement by one cop that Zimmerman had returned to his vehicle and Treyvon followed and attacked Zimmerman is ludicrous. That's just racism trying to cover for racism.

A neighborhood watch is really a militia function. If this jerk claimed he was a captain, then he should have been elected, to make him a legitimate militia captain. If he was elected, his militia should have been registered with bot mayor and governor, as any proper militia should do.

From the evidence, he did none of these things -- he just assigned himself a role. One article reported his neighbors complained about his activities. So if there's any way to charge him for any of that, it should be done.

The length of time he followed the teen is sufficient to make this qualify for premeditated murder. I'd like to see it prosecuted that way.

[jackoroe]

And the statement by one cop that Zimmerman had returned to his vehicle and Treyvon followed and attacked Zimmerman is ludicrous. That's just racism trying to cover for racism.

A neighborhood watch is really a militia function. If this jerk claimed he was a captain, then he should have been elected, to make him a legitimate militia captain. If he was elected, his militia should have been registered with bot mayor and governor, as any proper militia should do.

From the evidence, he did none of these things -- he just assigned himself a role. One article reported his neighbors complained about his activities. So if there's any way to charge him for any of that, it should be done.

The length of time he followed the teen is sufficient to make this qualify for premeditated murder. I'd like to see it prosecuted that way.

We need to see where the evidence leads before reaching those kinds of conclusions. One thing I did learn today, is that Martin laid in the morgue for three days. Nobody made an attempt to figure out who he was or contact any family members. Martin did have a cell phone on his person. I'm not entirely sure, but I'd guess that might be a clue as to his identity or at least a means to notify somebody of his death.

The state's attorney is conducting the investigation in conjunction with the grand jury. The police chief is taking a temporary leave until the matter is resolved. Quite the circus they've got going on!

[T-Rexx]

Unless I can use the instrument of my choice which enables me to stand up to the worst of assailants, my right to self-defense means nothing.

No, the right of self-defense does not allow you the right to any weapon of your choice.

You may not use an automatic weapon, an RPG, a bazooka, or a cannon.

You may not use a grenade or bomb.

You may not lay land mines around your property or park a tank in your yard.

You may not build a dirty bomb or a nuclear device.

It does not matter how threatened you feel, or what adversary you face. You may not do any of those things in America.

Thanks to the NRA and Republican legislatures, however, it is perfectly legal to shoot unarmed children in parts of America - so long as they are threatening you with their bag of candy.

[chrisrobin]

This just in:

Sanford sheriff has just resigned. Link to follow.

[mitchymo]

It's got nothing to do with Florida's gun laws or stand your ground. It appears to have everything to do with cold blooded murder.

It has everything to do with them. This guy has abused the law. His guilt will rest on the strength of the evidence. If the evidence is weak, watch him walk.

?? What "treatment"??

If you can't cure the idiots, those who abuse guns, then applying treatment, banning handguns, is the next best thing.

[T-Rexx]

The claim of under the stand your ground law is specious at best. Zimmerman was following Martin around an area that wasn't even his own property.

Yes, of course Zimmerman's claim is absurd, but "Stand Your Ground" laws make it difficult to prosecute people who use guns against other people. That's the whole idea of "Stand Your Ground" laws.

Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch captain. His "ground" was the entire neighborhood. He felt threatened by the presence of black children in his neighborhood. Under Florida law, he was "standing his ground."

[Kulindahr]

If you can't cure the idiots, those who abuse guns, then applying treatment, banning handguns, is the next best thing.

Ah, the old "punish the innocent but protect the guilty" procedure.

[Kulindahr]

Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch captain. His "ground" was the entire neighborhood. He felt threatened by the presence of black children in his neighborhood. Under Florida law, he was "standing his ground."

But was he really? That's what he told the cops, but that national Neighborhood Watch organization said NOT!, and there were reports his neighbors had complained about him. I'm thinking he was self-appointed.

[JohannBessler]

Ah, the old "punish the innocent but protect the guilty" procedure.

I echo this sentiment.

Mitchymo, it wouldn't do any good anyway. The assailants would just use knives.
I've heard about all the knifings in London.

The root of this problem is how the law is written. As has ben previously mentioned, it's far too broad.

[mitchymo]

Ah, the old "punish the innocent but protect the guilty" procedure.

A) Not being shot by somebody abusing their 'rights', vs
B) Having a gun in case i need it.

Yep, i'll choose option A, every time.

This law has punished the innocent, and presumably, the guilty is hoping this law protects him. Only the crucial evidence of witnesses is going to help get justice done, if there were no witnesses.....

[mitchymo]

I echo this sentiment.

Mitchymo, it wouldn't do any good anyway. The assailants would just use knives.
I've heard about all the knifings in London.

The root of this problem is how the law is written. As has ben previously mentioned, it's far too broad.

This law has set the foundations to do exactly the same thing as you suggest banning guns would do.

Secondly, knife crime has been addressed accordingly, knives are now banned in public. Knife crime is down, murder rates are down.

[jackoroe]

Yes, of course Zimmerman's claim is absurd, but "Stand Your Ground" laws make it difficult to prosecute people who use guns against other people. That's the whole idea of "Stand Your Ground" laws.

Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch captain. His "ground" was the entire neighborhood. He felt threatened by the presence of black children in his neighborhood. Under Florida law, he was "standing his ground."

The neighborhood watch captain as appointed by whom? He had no authority, except as he might have imagined.

Your interpretation of Stand Your Ground is wrong. It's about the right to self protection. This incident does not appear, so far, to fall within the defense availed to citizens by that law.

[Kulindahr]

This law has set the foundations to do exactly the same thing as you suggest banning guns would do.

Secondly, knife crime has been addressed accordingly, knives are now banned in public. Knife crime is down, murder rates are down.

And in the U.S., the number of guns is up and the amount of violent crime is down.

[Kulindahr]

I echo this sentiment.

Mitchymo, it wouldn't do any good anyway. The assailants would just use knives.
I've heard about all the knifings in London.

The root of this problem is how the law is written. As has ben previously mentioned, it's far too broad.

Yes.

According to my handgun safety course, following someone is escalation of a situation, and escalation means you've forfeited any grounds for claiming self-defense. In essence, by following the kid, our neanderthal jerk made himself the aggressor.

[mitchymo]

And in the U.S., the number of guns is up and the amount of violent crime is down.

Shooting somebody doesn't need to be violent....

Fact is, murder rates are between 3 and 4 times higher per 100,000 than in the rest of the West. Take away the guns and its still 1.5-3x higher depending where you compare.

So why is that? Why are americans more likely to kill? Is it because you're born killers, or because you have the right tool for taking things one step too far?

[T-Rexx]

The neighborhood watch captain as appointed by whom? He had no authority, except as he might have imagined.

Under Florida law, I'm not sure that it matters whether Zimmerman was "officially" appointed or not. He felt threatened by a kid in his neighborhood. In the past, he would have been compelled under the law to withdraw from a situation of conflict. Under "Stand Your Ground," it is perfectly legal for him to "defend" himself with a gun.

Your interpretation of Stand Your Ground is wrong. It's about the right to self protection. This incident does not appear, so far, to fall within the defense availed to citizens by that law.

It's not my interpretation that matters. The Florida authorities are claiming they have not arrested Zimmerman because, under "Stand Your Ground," he does not appear to have done anything wrong.

The interpretation is theirs, not mine.

[JohannBessler]

Shooting somebody doesn't need to be violent....

Fact is, murder rates are between 3 and 4 times higher per 100,000 than in the rest of the West. Take away the guns and its still 1.5-3x higher depending where you compare.

So why is that? Why are americans more likely to kill? Is it because you're born killers, or because you have the right tool for taking things one step too far?

Rick Steves, who's a prominent travel writer, warns Americans that Europe is very dangerous in terms of pickpockets. He asserts,"It's not a question of 'if', it's a question of 'when'."

He himself has been pickpocketed six times, and has been mugged twice—both times, in London.

And this is coming from a man who is a very experienced traveller and knows all the tricks. Ordinary Americans are sitting ducks while in Europe.

Why am I even mentioning this, Mitchymo? You're implying that the United States has a monopoly on crime. I assert that this belief is mistaken, to put it kindly.

[EastMed]

Erm... societies with strict gun controls have very few gun murders.
Just saying, like.

[JohannBessler]

Erm... societies with strict gun controls have very few gun murders.
Just saying, like.

Yeah...very few gun murders. Other types of murders are often (conveniently) not mentioned.

I have always scorned the right wing for lying when it comes to politics, but the left wing does it, too, from time to time.

[mitchymo]

Rick Steves, who's a prominent travel writer, warns Americans that Europe is very dangerous in terms of pickpockets. He asserts,"It's not a question of 'if', it's a question of 'when'."

He himself has been pickpocketed six times, and has been mugged twice—both times, in London.

And this is coming from a man who is a very experienced traveller and knows all the tricks. Ordinary Americans are sitting ducks while in Europe.

Why am I even mentioning this, Mitchymo? You're implying that the United States has a monopoly on crime. I assert that this belief is mistaken, to put it kindly.

Europe, dangerous in terms of pickpockets? That i CAN believe, particularly in London. But so long as you keep your valuables in your front pockets and not your back pockets, or worse, your jacket, there won't be a problem. You're not likely going to get killed either way, so life not in danger.

And Rick Steves....learn man, learn.

[mitchymo]

Yeah...very few gun murders. Other types of murders are often (conveniently) not mentioned.

I have always scorned the right wing for lying when it comes to politics, but the left wing does it, too, from time to time.

If you do the research, US gun deaths unattributed to firearms (which count for approx 67%), is STILL way higher than other Western nations by 1.5 - 3x more.

[JohannBessler]

If you do the research, US gun deaths unattributed to firearms (which count for approx 67%), is STILL way higher than other Western nations by 1.5 - 3x more.

Gun deaths unattributed to firearms?

Huh?

<scratches head>

[JohannBessler]

And Rick Steves....learn man, learn.

Going off topic....

...Rick Steves tells all his readers to wear a money belt below the pants, and to carry a fake wallet in the front pocket of the pants.

Even so, that fake wallet of his has been pickpocketed six times. He likes to leave a paper note in the wallet saying,"Get a job."

(Don't ask me; I don't know how they cat pick a front pocket, either.)

OK, back to topic....

[mitchymo]

Gun deaths unattributed to firearms?

Huh?

<scratches head>

Omit gun and it makes sense

[JohannBessler]

Omit gun and it makes sense

Maybe you mean "deaths unattributed to firearms"?

(The first time you said "gun deaths unattributed to firearms", which would have been an oyxmoron.)

[CowboyBob]

Shooting somebody doesn't need to be violent....

Fact is, murder rates are between 3 and 4 times higher per 100,000 than in the rest of the West. Take away the guns and its still 1.5-3x higher depending where you compare.

So why is that? Why are americans more likely to kill? Is it because you're born killers, or because you have the right tool for taking things one step too far?

America is a country borne out of a revolution. Violence is part of our culture. Have a problem? Can't get along with someone? Shoot them. Kill them. Solve your problems with a gun.

The NRA isn't going to be happy until everyone in the country is carrying around a gun just like the wild west.

[Kulindahr]

Shooting somebody doesn't need to be violent....

Huh? You don't think a bullet does violence to a body? ? ?

Fact is, murder rates are between 3 and 4 times higher per 100,000 than in the rest of the West. Take away the guns and its still 1.5-3x higher depending where you compare.

Fact is, the number of guns in the U.S. has been climbing, and violent crime has been deceasing.

So why is that? Why are americans more likely to kill? Is it because you're born killers, or because you have the right tool for taking things one step too far?

Maybe it's the result of a grand genetic experiment: much of the population of Europe willing to take risks packed up and moved over here, leaving one continent with a genarally more peaceful population and the other with a more aggressive one.

[Rolyo85]

So you think it's a good idea to give the aggressive one more weapons?

Honestly, I am ever fascinated by your position on guns issues.

[Kulindahr]

Going off topic....

...Rick Steves tells all his readers to wear a money belt below the pants, and to carry a fake wallet in the front pocket of the pants.

Even so, that fake wallet of his has been pickpocketed six times. He likes to leave a paper note in the wallet saying,"Get a job."

(Don't ask me; I don't know how they cat pick a front pocket, either.)

OK, back to topic....

I had a guy who knew what he was doing demonstrate picking a front pocket once. He had us all put a wallet or something in a front pocket, then we got cookies and juice and milled around like a cocktail party.

A couple minutes later he whistled for our attention and held up my wallet. Grinning, he asked, "So did you see how I did that?"

The horrible part was I didn't even remember him being near me!

[Kulindahr]

America is a country borne out of a revolution. Violence is part of our culture. Have a problem? Can't get along with someone? Shoot them. Kill them. Solve your problems with a gun.

The NRA isn't going to be happy until everyone in the country is carrying around a gun just like the wild west.

The "wild west" was safer and had fewer gun crimes per capita than the citified east.

The NRA will be happy when liberal statists stop trying to turn us all into cattle.

[Kulindahr]

So you think it's a good idea to give the aggressive one more weapons?

Honestly, I am ever fascinated by your position on guns issues.

I'm fascinated that the focus is always on the predator, but the "solution" targets no one but the prey.

[JohannBessler]

Fact is, the number of guns in the U.S. has been climbing, and violent crime has been deceasing.

This is true.

THis fact is possibly one of the best-kept secrets about the United States. We have a media-driven reputation for violent crime, but in fact it has dropped quite dramatically since about 1994 or so.

It is true that the United States of the 70s and 80s was violent in the cities, but that's yesterday, and yesterday is no more.

[Thynight]

This just in:

Sanford sheriff has just resigned. Link to follow.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...6pLid%3D145808


This is a good read.

It sounds like the Sanford Police Department has a history of racism and of covering things up.

Local residents and community leaders, particularly in the black community, have said they have absolutely no faith in the Sanford police or Lee, who came into office less than a year ago after another scandal brought down the previous chief of police.

Chief Lee's predecessor, Brian Tooley, was forced from office last year amid a scandal involving a lieutenant's son who was captured on video attacking a homeless black man. As the homeless man lay bleeding on the ground, police officers reportedly drove his attacker from the scene. The lieutenant's son, Justin Collison, 21, was not arrested at the time. A month later he turned himself in after video surfaced on Youtube.

For years the local NAACP and others have claimed that the police protected their own and routinely harassed and embarrassed blacks. And in the last few years, some Sanford officers have displayed questionable behavior: a couple have been arrested for taking bribes and kickbacks, and one was fired last summer for falsely accusing a suspect of attempted murder. In one case, the NAACP said that an officer had refused to investigate the rape of a black woman until the organization put pressure on the department.

[Kulindahr]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...6pLid%3D145808


This is a good read.

It sounds like the Sanford Police Department has a history of racism and of covering things up.

Whoa. Sounds like the sort of old South John Grisham touched on in a novel or two. I don't generally think of Florida that way!


edit: that town's police department sounds like a cesspit. I hope the DoJ kicks them all out and starts over.

[Rolyo85]

I'm fascinated that the focus is always on the predator, but the "solution" targets no one but the prey.

You really have no proof of that. Occam's razor says that more guns means more chances of gun use. That's statistically undeniable. Everything else is speculation. To claim that crime drop has been because of more guns is speculation. A thousand thousand things have changed since 1994, so to claim that this one thing is the cause, is basically choosing one out of many potential reasons because it fits your argument.

Also, personal guns are illegal in my home country. We have average crime rate, but the rate of murders is VERY low. To say that it has nothing to do with gun restriction and put it down to some sort of "different human nature" is... well, not a stable argument.

[Stardreamer]

The two legislators who wrote Florida's Stand your Ground law says it DOES NOT apply in this case and the local police clearly misinterpreted both the intent and letter of the law applying it.

The law gives a law abiding citizen the right to:
1. Defend themselves without a requiring an attempt to retreat.
2. Meet force with force.

It DOES NOT however give you the right to initiate a confrontation or initiate the use of force. Zimmerman lost any rights he had under Stand your Ground when he started stalking the boy thus initiating a confrontation.

Stand Your Ground authors: Tayvon Martin's shooter should be charged.... Miami Herald

[jackoroe]

Under Florida law, I'm not sure that it matters whether Zimmerman was "officially" appointed or not. He felt threatened by a kid in his neighborhood. In the past, he would have been compelled under the law to withdraw from a situation of conflict. Under "Stand Your Ground," it is perfectly legal for him to "defend" himself with a gun.



It's not my interpretation that matters. The Florida authorities are claiming they have not arrested Zimmerman because, under "Stand Your Ground," he does not appear to have done anything wrong.

The interpretation is theirs, not mine.

First, let's post the relevant portion of the statute, so we're all on the same page.

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...0776/0776.html

So, Zimmerman is required to reasonably believe that a 17 year old kid, some 100 lbs.less than him, who he was chasing poses an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. With me so far?

Now, the Senator who wrote the law is on record on this matter. He says, Zimmerman is, as I contended, not entitled to the protections of the law as he was the aggressor in this instance.

It is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.

"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Miami Herald. "When he said 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...rayvon-martin/

The Stand Your Ground doctrine is not at issue. I know the left wants it be to be the case, but it's just garden variety murder based on what we currently know.

[Kulindahr]

The two legislators who wrote Florida's Stand your Ground law says it DOES NOT apply in this case and the local police clearly misinterpreted both the intent and letter of the law applying it.

The law gives a law abiding citizen the right to:
1. Defend themselves without a requiring an attempt to retreat.
2. Meet force with force.

It DOES NOT however give you the right to initiate a confrontation or initiate the use of force. Zimmerman lost any rights he had under Stand your Ground when he started stalking the boy thus initiating a confrontation.

Stand Your Ground authors: Tayvon Martin's shooter should be charged.... Miami Herald

That was my assessment -- glad to hear it from the source.

I just head on ABC that the Department of Justice is considering prosecution under hates crime law, regardless of what the State of Florida does.

[chrisrobin]

This just in:

Sanford sheriff has just resigned. Link to follow.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...on-martin-case

Temporary? I think not. I was waiting for, "I need to spend more time with my family."

[Kulindahr]

You really have no proof of that. Occam's razor says that more guns means more chances of gun use. That's statistically undeniable. Everything else is speculation. To claim that crime drop has been because of more guns is speculation. A thousand thousand things have changed since 1994, so to claim that this one thing is the cause, is basically choosing one out of many potential reasons because it fits your argument.

Occam's razor says nothing about gun crime.

If you don't think more guns means less crime, don't claim it. I didn't.

[Kulindahr]

So, Zimmerman is required to reasonably believe that a 17 year old kid, some 100 lbs.less than him, who he was chasing poses an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. With me so far?

Now, the Senator who wrote the law is on record on this matter. He says, Zimmerman is, as I contended, not entitled to the protections of the law as he was the aggressor in this instance.


The Stand Your Ground doctrine is not at issue. I know the left wants it be to be the case, but it's just garden variety murder based on what we currently know.

The local police department want it to be the issue as well -- they've said it covers Zimmerman.

DoJ should investigate the department and clean house.

[Rolyo85]

Occam's razor says nothing about gun crime.

If you don't think more guns means less crime, don't claim it. I didn't.

No, you just repeatedly imply it. And this topic is a clear example of something that would not have happened if gun ownership was restricted. Or do you think a tragedy of this type is an aberration and an exception?

[GiancarloC]

More guns do mean more crimes and stupid incidents like this one. This is why I have a big problem with the gun laws in this country. They are way too lax. And the one in Florida is downright ridiculous and practically invite incidents like this one.

Time to clamp down on allowing citizens to have guns.

[Kulindahr]

No, you just repeatedly imply it. And this topic is a clear example of something that would not have happened if gun ownership was restricted. Or do you think a tragedy of this type is an aberration and an exception?

Of course it's an aberration/exception. Usually when an innocent kid is gunned down it's a cop who did it.

[Kulindahr]

More guns do mean more crimes and stupid incidents like this one. This is why I have a big problem with the gun laws in this country. They are way too lax. And the one in Florida is downright ridiculous and practically invite incidents like this one.

Time to clamp down on allowing citizens to have guns.

No, just time to make neighborhood watch people certified and trained.

[Just_Believe18]

Let's not turn this thread into a gun debate and stay on topic. The attention and focus needs to be on Zimmerman being arrested. The murderer is still free and hasn't been charged yet.

[JohannBessler]

The Stand Your Ground doctrine is not at issue. I know the left wants it be to be the case, but it's just garden variety murder based on what we currently know.

Yes Jackaroe it certainly is.

You already know I support the right of a citizen to bear arms. So for me (and you know I'm a leftist) the gun's not the problem.

The law is.

And here's why: there's a central, devastating flaw to the law—when the victim perishes, he is no longer able to give his version of the events. That leaves one sole vitness—the pepetrator. All the perpetrator has to say is that,"He attacked me."

That opens doors Jackaroe and you're smart enough to see it.

You can just bet that if the victim were white, this whole debate would be different.

That law needs to go, or at least be rewritten.

[Kulindahr]

Let's not turn this thread into a gun debate and stay on topic. The attention and focus needs to be on Zimmerman being arrested. The murderer is still free and hasn't been charged yet.

I heard something about he'd fled or something. Maybe the FBI should take hm into protective custody.

[Kulindahr]

Yes Jackaroe it certainly is.

You already know I support the right of a citizen to bear arms. So for me (and you know I'm a leftist) the gun's not the problem.

The law is.

And here's why: there's a central, devastating flaw to the law—when the victim perishes, he is no longer able to give his version of the events. That leaves one sole vitness—the pepetrator. All the perpetrator has to say is that,"He attacked me."

That opens doors Jackaroe and you're smart enough to see it.

You can just bet that if the victim were white, this whole debate would be different.

That law needs to go, or at least be rewritten.

Not quite: the person shot has to have been a credible threat to the shooter. On that alone, this is murder.