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  1. #51
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Yes, of course Zimmerman's claim is absurd, but "Stand Your Ground" laws make it difficult to prosecute people who use guns against other people. That's the whole idea of "Stand Your Ground" laws.

    Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch captain. His "ground" was the entire neighborhood. He felt threatened by the presence of black children in his neighborhood. Under Florida law, he was "standing his ground."

    The neighborhood watch captain as appointed by whom? He had no authority, except as he might have imagined.

    Your interpretation of Stand Your Ground is wrong. It's about the right to self protection. This incident does not appear, so far, to fall within the defense availed to citizens by that law.

  2. #52
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    This law has set the foundations to do exactly the same thing as you suggest banning guns would do.

    Secondly, knife crime has been addressed accordingly, knives are now banned in public. Knife crime is down, murder rates are down.
    And in the U.S., the number of guns is up and the amount of violent crime is down.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  3. #53
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    I echo this sentiment.

    Mitchymo, it wouldn't do any good anyway. The assailants would just use knives.
    I've heard about all the knifings in London.

    The root of this problem is how the law is written. As has ben previously mentioned, it's far too broad.
    Yes.

    According to my handgun safety course, following someone is escalation of a situation, and escalation means you've forfeited any grounds for claiming self-defense. In essence, by following the kid, our neanderthal jerk made himself the aggressor.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #54
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    The neighborhood watch captain as appointed by whom? He had no authority, except as he might have imagined.
    Under Florida law, I'm not sure that it matters whether Zimmerman was "officially" appointed or not. He felt threatened by a kid in his neighborhood. In the past, he would have been compelled under the law to withdraw from a situation of conflict. Under "Stand Your Ground," it is perfectly legal for him to "defend" himself with a gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Your interpretation of Stand Your Ground is wrong. It's about the right to self protection. This incident does not appear, so far, to fall within the defense availed to citizens by that law.
    It's not my interpretation that matters. The Florida authorities are claiming they have not arrested Zimmerman because, under "Stand Your Ground," he does not appear to have done anything wrong.

    The interpretation is theirs, not mine.

  5. #55

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Erm... societies with strict gun controls have very few gun murders.
    Just saying, like.

  6. #56

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Shooting somebody doesn't need to be violent....

    Fact is, murder rates are between 3 and 4 times higher per 100,000 than in the rest of the West. Take away the guns and its still 1.5-3x higher depending where you compare.

    So why is that? Why are americans more likely to kill? Is it because you're born killers, or because you have the right tool for taking things one step too far?
    America is a country borne out of a revolution. Violence is part of our culture. Have a problem? Can't get along with someone? Shoot them. Kill them. Solve your problems with a gun.

    The NRA isn't going to be happy until everyone in the country is carrying around a gun just like the wild west.

  7. #57
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Shooting somebody doesn't need to be violent....
    Huh? You don't think a bullet does violence to a body? ? ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Fact is, murder rates are between 3 and 4 times higher per 100,000 than in the rest of the West. Take away the guns and its still 1.5-3x higher depending where you compare.
    Fact is, the number of guns in the U.S. has been climbing, and violent crime has been deceasing.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    So why is that? Why are americans more likely to kill? Is it because you're born killers, or because you have the right tool for taking things one step too far?
    Maybe it's the result of a grand genetic experiment: much of the population of Europe willing to take risks packed up and moved over here, leaving one continent with a genarally more peaceful population and the other with a more aggressive one.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #58
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    So you think it's a good idea to give the aggressive one more weapons?

    Honestly, I am ever fascinated by your position on guns issues.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    Going off topic....

    ...Rick Steves tells all his readers to wear a money belt below the pants, and to carry a fake wallet in the front pocket of the pants.

    Even so, that fake wallet of his has been pickpocketed six times. He likes to leave a paper note in the wallet saying,"Get a job."

    (Don't ask me; I don't know how they cat pick a front pocket, either.)


    OK, back to topic....
    I had a guy who knew what he was doing demonstrate picking a front pocket once. He had us all put a wallet or something in a front pocket, then we got cookies and juice and milled around like a cocktail party.

    A couple minutes later he whistled for our attention and held up my wallet. Grinning, he asked, "So did you see how I did that?"

    The horrible part was I didn't even remember him being near me!


    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #60
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    America is a country borne out of a revolution. Violence is part of our culture. Have a problem? Can't get along with someone? Shoot them. Kill them. Solve your problems with a gun.

    The NRA isn't going to be happy until everyone in the country is carrying around a gun just like the wild west.
    The "wild west" was safer and had fewer gun crimes per capita than the citified east.

    The NRA will be happy when liberal statists stop trying to turn us all into cattle.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  11. #61
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    So you think it's a good idea to give the aggressive one more weapons?

    Honestly, I am ever fascinated by your position on guns issues.
    I'm fascinated that the focus is always on the predator, but the "solution" targets no one but the prey.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  12. #62
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    This just in:

    Sanford sheriff has just resigned. Link to follow.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...6pLid%3D145808


    This is a good read.

    It sounds like the Sanford Police Department has a history of racism and of covering things up.


    Local residents and community leaders, particularly in the black community, have said they have absolutely no faith in the Sanford police or Lee, who came into office less than a year ago after another scandal brought down the previous chief of police.

    Chief Lee's predecessor, Brian Tooley, was forced from office last year amid a scandal involving a lieutenant's son who was captured on video attacking a homeless black man. As the homeless man lay bleeding on the ground, police officers reportedly drove his attacker from the scene. The lieutenant's son, Justin Collison, 21, was not arrested at the time. A month later he turned himself in after video surfaced on Youtube.

    For years the local NAACP and others have claimed that the police protected their own and routinely harassed and embarrassed blacks. And in the last few years, some Sanford officers have displayed questionable behavior: a couple have been arrested for taking bribes and kickbacks, and one was fired last summer for falsely accusing a suspect of attempted murder. In one case, the NAACP said that an officer had refused to investigate the rape of a black woman until the organization put pressure on the department.
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  13. #63
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Thynight View Post
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...6pLid%3D145808


    This is a good read.

    It sounds like the Sanford Police Department has a history of racism and of covering things up.
    Whoa. Sounds like the sort of old South John Grisham touched on in a novel or two. I don't generally think of Florida that way!


    edit: that town's police department sounds like a cesspit. I hope the DoJ kicks them all out and starts over.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #64
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'm fascinated that the focus is always on the predator, but the "solution" targets no one but the prey.
    You really have no proof of that. Occam's razor says that more guns means more chances of gun use. That's statistically undeniable. Everything else is speculation. To claim that crime drop has been because of more guns is speculation. A thousand thousand things have changed since 1994, so to claim that this one thing is the cause, is basically choosing one out of many potential reasons because it fits your argument.

    Also, personal guns are illegal in my home country. We have average crime rate, but the rate of murders is VERY low. To say that it has nothing to do with gun restriction and put it down to some sort of "different human nature" is... well, not a stable argument.

  15. #65
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    The two legislators who wrote Florida's Stand your Ground law says it DOES NOT apply in this case and the local police clearly misinterpreted both the intent and letter of the law applying it.

    The law gives a law abiding citizen the right to:
    1. Defend themselves without a requiring an attempt to retreat.
    2. Meet force with force.

    It DOES NOT however give you the right to initiate a confrontation or initiate the use of force. Zimmerman lost any rights he had under Stand your Ground when he started stalking the boy thus initiating a confrontation.

    Stand Your Ground authors: Tayvon Martin's shooter should be charged.... Miami Herald
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  16. #66
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Under Florida law, I'm not sure that it matters whether Zimmerman was "officially" appointed or not. He felt threatened by a kid in his neighborhood. In the past, he would have been compelled under the law to withdraw from a situation of conflict. Under "Stand Your Ground," it is perfectly legal for him to "defend" himself with a gun.



    It's not my interpretation that matters. The Florida authorities are claiming they have not arrested Zimmerman because, under "Stand Your Ground," he does not appear to have done anything wrong.

    The interpretation is theirs, not mine.
    First, let's post the relevant portion of the statute, so we're all on the same page.

    776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
    (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...0776/0776.html

    So, Zimmerman is required to reasonably believe that a 17 year old kid, some 100 lbs.less than him, who he was chasing poses an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. With me so far?

    Now, the Senator who wrote the law is on record on this matter. He says, Zimmerman is, as I contended, not entitled to the protections of the law as he was the aggressor in this instance.

    It is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.

    "The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Miami Herald. "When he said 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...rayvon-martin/

    The Stand Your Ground doctrine is not at issue. I know the left wants it be to be the case, but it's just garden variety murder based on what we currently know.

  17. #67
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    The two legislators who wrote Florida's Stand your Ground law says it DOES NOT apply in this case and the local police clearly misinterpreted both the intent and letter of the law applying it.

    The law gives a law abiding citizen the right to:
    1. Defend themselves without a requiring an attempt to retreat.
    2. Meet force with force.

    It DOES NOT however give you the right to initiate a confrontation or initiate the use of force. Zimmerman lost any rights he had under Stand your Ground when he started stalking the boy thus initiating a confrontation.

    Stand Your Ground authors: Tayvon Martin's shooter should be charged.... Miami Herald
    That was my assessment -- glad to hear it from the source.

    I just head on ABC that the Department of Justice is considering prosecution under hates crime law, regardless of what the State of Florida does.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #68
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    This just in:

    Sanford sheriff has just resigned. Link to follow.
    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...on-martin-case

    Temporary? I think not. I was waiting for, "I need to spend more time with my family."

  19. #69
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You really have no proof of that. Occam's razor says that more guns means more chances of gun use. That's statistically undeniable. Everything else is speculation. To claim that crime drop has been because of more guns is speculation. A thousand thousand things have changed since 1994, so to claim that this one thing is the cause, is basically choosing one out of many potential reasons because it fits your argument.
    Occam's razor says nothing about gun crime.

    If you don't think more guns means less crime, don't claim it. I didn't.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  20. #70
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    So, Zimmerman is required to reasonably believe that a 17 year old kid, some 100 lbs.less than him, who he was chasing poses an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. With me so far?

    Now, the Senator who wrote the law is on record on this matter. He says, Zimmerman is, as I contended, not entitled to the protections of the law as he was the aggressor in this instance.


    The Stand Your Ground doctrine is not at issue. I know the left wants it be to be the case, but it's just garden variety murder based on what we currently know.
    The local police department want it to be the issue as well -- they've said it covers Zimmerman.

    DoJ should investigate the department and clean house.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Occam's razor says nothing about gun crime.

    If you don't think more guns means less crime, don't claim it. I didn't.
    No, you just repeatedly imply it. And this topic is a clear example of something that would not have happened if gun ownership was restricted. Or do you think a tragedy of this type is an aberration and an exception?

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, you just repeatedly imply it. And this topic is a clear example of something that would not have happened if gun ownership was restricted. Or do you think a tragedy of this type is an aberration and an exception?
    Of course it's an aberration/exception. Usually when an innocent kid is gunned down it's a cop who did it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  23. #73
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    More guns do mean more crimes and stupid incidents like this one. This is why I have a big problem with the gun laws in this country. They are way too lax. And the one in Florida is downright ridiculous and practically invite incidents like this one.

    Time to clamp down on allowing citizens to have guns.
    No, just time to make neighborhood watch people certified and trained.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  24. #74
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Let's not turn this thread into a gun debate and stay on topic. The attention and focus needs to be on Zimmerman being arrested. The murderer is still free and hasn't been charged yet.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    Let's not turn this thread into a gun debate and stay on topic. The attention and focus needs to be on Zimmerman being arrested. The murderer is still free and hasn't been charged yet.
    I heard something about he'd fled or something. Maybe the FBI should take hm into protective custody.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  26. #76
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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    Yes Jackaroe it certainly is.

    You already know I support the right of a citizen to bear arms. So for me (and you know I'm a leftist) the gun's not the problem.

    The law is.

    And here's why: there's a central, devastating flaw to the law—when the victim perishes, he is no longer able to give his version of the events. That leaves one sole vitness—the pepetrator. All the perpetrator has to say is that,"He attacked me."

    That opens doors Jackaroe and you're smart enough to see it.

    You can just bet that if the victim were white, this whole debate would be different.

    That law needs to go, or at least be rewritten.
    Not quite: the person shot has to have been a credible threat to the shooter. On that alone, this is murder.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    But the victim is usually dead and can't testify.

    Kulindahr, I'm speaking of a bigger picture, not just this case alone.
    As Sherlock Holmes would say, even if he's dead, he can testify -- we just have to listen, or rather look, harder.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Zimmerman is required to reasonably believe that a 17 year old kid, some 100 lbs.less than him, who he was chasing poses an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm.

    According to the Sanford police, this is exactly what Zimmerman is claiming. Apparently, the police believe this claim, since they have yet to arrest Zimmerman.



    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Now, the Senator who wrote the law is on record on this matter. He says, Zimmerman is, as I contended, not entitled to the protections of the law as he was the aggressor in this instance.
    It is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.

    "The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Miami Herald. "When he said 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

    If that's what Peadon intended, he should have written it into his law. He didn't.

    The legal precedent which has developed in Florida concerning this law is that it protects the shooter even in cases where the shooter is pursuing the victim. The law states only that the shooter must have felt threatened by the victim. In the seven years since Peadon's "Stand Your Ground" law was passed, it has been invoked to protect the shooter in 93 cases involving 65 deaths in Florida. In almost every case, the shooter was exonerated.

    http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...l-go-free.html

    It would seem that only guilty people in Florida die when they get shot.



    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    The Stand Your Ground doctrine is not at issue. I know the left wants it be to be the case, but it's just garden variety murder based on what we currently know.

    If this is so cut and dry, and it is so clear that his is "just garden variety murder based on what we currently know," why is the murderer still free?

    And if "The Stand Your Ground doctrine is not an issue" here, why do Florida authorities keep insisting that they cannot arrest Zimmerman because it is?

    Do we JUBbers understand Florida law better than the Florida authorities?

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, just time to make neighborhood watch people certified and trained.
    Except, as you, yourself have pointed out, George Zimmerman may not have been a "real" neighborhood watch captain.

    In America, the way we protect ourselves from crazy people with guns is by handing out ever more guns to ever more crazy people.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    According to the Sanford police, this is exactly what Zimmerman is claiming. Apparently, the police believe this claim, since they have yet to arrest Zimmerman.

    Now think about that logically, for a moment. Anybody who would claim protection under the Stand Your Ground law is exempt from even arrest and subsequent charging? Yet the Uniform Crime Report consistently reports approximately 650 people being charged with murder since the law taking effect. Some of them claimed protection under Stand Your Ground. They were still charged.

    Here's the 2010 numbers.
    http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/..._annual10.aspx



    If this is so cut and dry, and it is so clear that his is "just garden variety murder based on what we currently know," why is the murderer still free?

    Because the issue is being under investigation by a grand jury. They are a deliberative body by their very nature. Since murder has no statute of limitations there are no time constraints on their investigation.
    And if "The Stand Your Ground doctrine is not an issue" here, why do Florida authorities keep insisting that they cannot arrest Zimmerman because it is?

    People are arrested all the time even though they claim immunity under Stand Your Ground in Florida.

    http://news.bostonherald.com/news/na...osition=recent
    Do we JUBbers understand Florida law better than the Florida authorities?
    I'd have to say we do. The alternative is they are right and therefore murder is legal. It isn't legal as evidenced by the fact that people get charged with murder in fairly consistent numbers, despite the existence of this law.

    Sanford PD is horribly incompetent. They failed to even so much as notify Martin's family of his death for three days. That is inexcusable. If you can get it together sufficiently to make appropriate victim notifications, your ability to conduct investigations is certainly at issue.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    According to the Sanford police, this is exactly what Zimmerman is claiming. Apparently, the police believe this claim, since they have yet to arrest Zimmerman.




    And if "The Stand Your Ground doctrine is not an issue" here, why do Florida authorities keep insisting that they cannot arrest Zimmerman because it is?

    Do we JUBbers understand Florida law better than the Florida authorities?
    The local authorities at least are racist bigots. Higher up, I don't know.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Sanford PD is horribly incompetent. They failed to even so much as notify Martin's family of his death for three days. That is inexcusable. If you can get it together sufficiently to make appropriate victim notifications, your ability to conduct investigations is certainly at issue.
    They were working out the story with the shooter.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    As Sherlock Holmes would say, even if he's dead, he can testify -- we just have to listen, or rather look, harder.
    There were no gunpowder tests. There were no trajectory tests. Acts of commission or omission? I don't think the local P.D. had any intention of investigating the "event".

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    There were no gunpowder tests. There were no trajectory tests. Acts of commission or omission? I don't think the local P.D. had any intention of investigating the "event".
    I don't either.

    The police chief should resign permanently, and the DoJ should give him a new home with nice steel bar decor.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  35. #85

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    I presume Mr Zimmerman will soon be charged with an offence which he could not have committed under Florida law.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    There were no gunpowder tests. There were no trajectory tests. Acts of commission or omission? I don't think the local P.D. had any intention of investigating the "event".
    In Oregon cops are required by law to examine all such things. The only leeway they have is whether or not to take the shooter into custody. If, God forbid, I ever have to fire in self-defense, a can expect to be interrogated and have my firearm kept as evidence, even if it's obvious the guy was after me with a lethal weapon.

    This negligence screams "corruption!" to me.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by EastMed View Post
    I presume Mr Zimmerman will soon be charged with an offence which he could not have committed under Florida law.


    I've been expecting this, also.

    Public outrage has a way of making the impossible possible.

  38. #88

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Have those pundits over at Fox News gone completely insane?

    Geraldo Rivera said on Fox and Friends that wearing a hooded sweatshirt was responsible for his killing. He said:

    “I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin’s death as George Zimmerman was.”

    Good grief. The shit that comes out of that network is just unreal.

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...m-to-zip-it-up

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Chris Mathews on Hardball had a statement on this.
    It was the police explaining what Zimmerman told them or what they found out.
    The cop who found Trayvon, said Zimmerman was bloody and was beat up by Trayvon. He had other cites but I cannot remember them and I haven't found them on the web. But I did come across these.
    http://www.thegrio.com/specials/tray...rd-florida.php
    Trayvon Martin: 15 facts you need to know about case of teen shot in Sanford, Florida



    Martin weighed 140 pounds.
    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,3161920.story
    Zimmerman weighs 250 pounds.
    http://www.wdbo.com/news/news/sanfor...s-shoot/nLRC3/
    This is precious. Here is Trayvon weighing in at 140 and Zimmerman 250. So this kid was beating up this asshole so asshole decided to kill him.
    Did y'all read my signature" Deja Moo.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  40. #90

    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I found this today that y;all may be interested in. There are links from several newspapers about what they quote in this article.
    There has been another thread opened in the forum.

    http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews...ee/#paragraph5
    The Zimmerman dude is hispanic ... not white.

    Let justice take it's course ... people like the crazy man, Rev. Al, need to stay away. He should be at home mourning his mother's death like any other person would do ... but Al can'd resist more money, more fame.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Chris Mathews on Hardball had a statement on this.
    It was the police explaining what Zimmerman told them or what they found out.
    The cop who found Trayvon, said Zimmerman was bloody and was beat up by Trayvon. He had other cites but I cannot remember them and I haven't found them on the web. But I did come across these.


    This is precious. Here is Trayvon weighing in at 140 and Zimmerman 250. So this kid was beating up this asshole so asshole decided to kill him.
    Did y'all read my signature" Deja Moo.
    You'd better hope this isn't the case. That would give Zimmerman legal justification.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    You'd better hope this isn't the case. That would give Zimmerman legal justification.
    Are you serious right now. The replies in this thread are killing me. Have you ever hit someone with your fists or fought someone almost twice your size. It's like your just saying whatever pops in your head first. Where are Zimmerman's defensive wounds? I'm sorry this thread has just angered me

    I had a feeling this was going to turn into a mini gun rights debate.

    Everyone in this thread knows (as when any other time a minority gets shot and it makes national news) a big stink will be made, the lead up to the trial will take a few years, and the perpetrator gets a slap on the wrist. Please, stop the faux outrage. It's sickening.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    I love how CNN went on to describe him as "average," only to follow up with this description by saying he had a domestic violence charge and assaulting an officer on his record. There's nothing 'average" about plea bargains and community service to avoid jail time.

    I wonder where "Zimmerman" is hiding? I hope it is in Florida since he will have that "Stand Your Ground" statue to protect himself from one of "these guys."

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by archive View Post
    Are you serious right now. The replies in this thread are killing me. Have you ever hit someone with your fists or fought someone almost twice your size. It's like your just saying whatever pops in your head first. Where are Zimmerman's defensive wounds? I'm sorry this thread has just angered me

    I had a feeling this was going to turn into a mini gun rights debate.

    Everyone in this thread knows (as when any other time a minority gets shot and it makes national news) a big stink will be made, the lead up to the trial will take a few years, and the perpetrator gets a slap on the wrist. Please, stop the faux outrage. It's sickening.
    Twice my size, no. A Lot bigger, yes. The law in Florida doesn't make a distinction as it relates to size, nor should it. Here's the standard for use of deadly force from the Florida law.  He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself. So, I hope that Zimmerman is without a scratch. Otherwise he may be able to demonstrate a reasonable belief. That's a problem.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Twice my size, no. A Lot bigger, yes. The law in Florida doesn't make a distinction as it relates to size, nor should it. Here's the standard for use of deadly force from the Florida law.  He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself. So, I hope that Zimmerman is without a scratch. Otherwise he may be able to demonstrate a reasonable belief. That's a problem.
    What I'm mostly worried about is that silly assertions such as this one get into peoples minds. (I know you're just pointing it now, but still.) Who in their right mind I honestly believe that a boy was terrifying a man. And as I said earlier , the shit show begins . Blame everything besides the perpetrator.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    ^You'll notice that gun ownership or gun control had absolutely nothing to do with it.

    This is a factor that was looked at in depth, when the conclusions were reached.
    Gun carrying has a nearly-negligible impact on crime -- it's positive, but within the range of statistical error. What it does is reduce crime against persons -- which tells us criminals aren't entirely stupid, or at least not all of them: they switch to a line of work where they're not likely to run into anyone, and thus into anyone with a gun.

    Of course the truly smart ones avoided people in the first place.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    Have those pundits over at Fox News gone completely insane?

    Geraldo Rivera said on Fox and Friends that wearing a hooded sweatshirt was responsible for his killing. He said:

    “I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin’s death as George Zimmerman was.”

    Good grief. The shit that comes out of that network is just unreal.

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...m-to-zip-it-up
    I understand what Rivera was getting at, but his statement is insane. A hoody can make others suspicious, because they can't see your face, but here's the thing: there had to be someone there to get suspicious because of the hoody.

    Another factor is that if a kid is adult height, the hood makes it hard to tell it's a kid. A mind inclined to be suspicious will assume adult.

    But that's hardly equal to some vigilante-minded thug hoping to find someone to shoot.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Gotta love this one:

    12. A police officer "corrected" a key witness. "The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help."
    That's astounding. Here that would be grounds for an immediate investigation of the police department to determine if it should be taken over by the state.

    This stinks.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    So, I hope that Zimmerman is without a scratch. Otherwise he may be able to demonstrate a reasonable belief. That's a problem.
    Why is it "a problem" if Zimmerman is without a scratch?

    Does getting scratched as you shoot someone exonerate you from murder in Florida?

    Do you not think that even the ability of perpetrators to make such absurd arguments indicates a problem with Florida law?

    Do you think it a good thing that Florida law sometimes allows people to get away with murder if they happen to have been injured in the act of killing?


    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    The law in Florida doesn't make a distinction as it relates to size, nor should it. Here's the standard for use of deadly force from the Florida law.  He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself.

    All that is necessary "to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm" is for the participants in a conflict to withdraw.

    That's it.

    The law used to require that. Now, under "Stand Your Ground," Florida law not only encourages Floridians to carry guns, but it reassures them that there is no need to withdraw from conflict when dangerous situations arise. In addition, SYG makes it more difficult to prosecute murder through the criminal justice system.

    If someone were to ask me if I thought it was a good idea to pass a law that encourages people to get themselves into life-threatening situations and also makes it difficult to prosecute murders which result from such situations, I would think that person crazy.

    But then, I'm not a Republican.

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    Re: Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Why is it "a problem" if Zimmerman is without a scratch?

    Does getting scratched as you shoot someone exonerate you from murder in Florida?

    Do you not think that even the ability of perpetrators to make such absurd arguments indicates a problem with Florida law?

    Do you think it a good thing that Florida law sometimes allows people to get away with murder if they happen to have been injured in the act of killing?

    Come on now, you're not as dense as you're pretending to be. If he has any defensive wounds at all, his lawyers are going to make the case that he was defending himself. I bet he's as clean as a whistle, however.


    All that is necessary "to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm" is for the participants in a conflict to withdraw.

    That's it.

    The law used to require that. Now, under "Stand Your Ground," Florida law not only encourages Floridians to carry guns, but it reassures them that there is no need to withdraw from conflict when dangerous situations arise. In addition, SYG makes it more difficult to prosecute murder through the criminal justice system.

    If someone were to ask me if I thought it was a good idea to pass a law that encourages people to get themselves into life-threatening situations and also makes it difficult to prosecute murders which result from such situations, I would think that person crazy.

    But then, I'm not a Republican.
    It doesn't encourage conflict or people to get in life-threatening situations. All the law says is that if your life is threatened in a confrontation, you can respond with deadly force. That's it. The purpose of the law was to prevent people that WERE retreating from being killed or seriously injured by an aggressor that doesn't walk away.

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