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  1. #151
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    American gun culture is about responsibility and civic duty. For some it is even about survival. A gun is a sacred object to be treated with respect. One of the major problems facing safety with guns is a deterioration of American gun culture in recreational gun use. Tragedy strikes when American gun culture is betrayed, and guns end up in the wrong person's hands. No one should support a gun free for all or deregulation. American gun culture must be ordained by education and law, or we will continue to see gun violence. Trying to stamp it out also won't work. Gun ownership is in our blood.
    But we need to get rid of the politicians who aren't willing to apply Congress' authority "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and ... training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress". A "well-regulated militia" doesn't leave firearms around for anyone to pick up and use, and certainly doesn't include people known to be dangerous to others.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #152
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Stop dodging.

    You asserted that because there's a law on the books, there's a "fact of death". That's false.
    Not according to the execution statistics which you insist on denying despite me providing the facts of death repeated here for your education. Your sophistic replies might well mesmerise you...not me...

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2014

  3. #153
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Not according to the execution statistics which you insist on denying despite me providing the facts of death repeated here for your education. Your sophistic replies might well mesmerise you...not me...

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2014
    Another dodge.

    You said that having laws on the books was a fact of death. But you defend your position by ignoring other facts: many states with death penalty laws on the books aren't using them, so [law on the books] does not equal [death]. And the statistics you're providing prove it: if your point was correct, then every state with a death penalty law would be executing people, but your figures show that's not true.

    So first you make a false assertion, and then you defend it with statistics that prove it's false.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; March 28th, 2014 at 01:08 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #154
    JUB Addict vulgar_newcomer's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    But we need to get rid of the politicians who aren't willing to apply Congress' authority "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and ... training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress". A "well-regulated militia" doesn't leave firearms around for anyone to pick up and use, and certainly doesn't include people known to be dangerous to others.
    Do you know odd your repeated stance is in these threads? It sounds very para-military ridiculous to many in urban or the sprawling megalopolis suburbs. I know it's not your intent and you are serious but its laughable in 2014 to think such a program would even be considered in a sea of fast food, Best Buys, Targets, & SUVS pulling up to soccer Moms 2/3 car garage cookie cutter homes sprawling out in the burbs.
    I am not in favor of banning guns nor afraid of them. I understand the desire to have a gun. I have a couple rifles and a Glock 9 mm, but this civilian militia stuff is too funny.
    Disciplining , organizing, & arming.... man to much!!! If anyone wants that they can join the volunteer armed forces, this isn't 1777 or even 1812.

  5. #155
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by vulgar_newcomer View Post
    Do you know odd your repeated stance is in these threads? It sounds very para-military ridiculous to many in urban or the sprawling megalopolis suburbs. I know it's not your intent and you are serious but its laughable in 2014 to think such a program would even be considered in a sea of fast food, Best Buys, Targets, & SUVS pulling up to soccer Moms 2/3 car garage cookie cutter homes sprawling out in the burbs.
    I am not in favor of banning guns nor afraid of them. I understand the desire to have a gun. I have a couple rifles and a Glock 9 mm, but this civilian militia stuff is too funny.
    Disciplining , organizing, & arming.... man to much!!! If anyone wants that they can join the volunteer armed forces, this isn't 1777 or even 1812.
    So you think people with guns should be allowed to behave any way they please? Just leave them laying around, let other people walk off with them and shoot people, buy guns even though public institutions know the individuals are a danger to others?

    What you're saying here boils down to "I endorse the slack policies that have allowed mental cases to shoot up people in public over the last couple of decades".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  6. #156
    Civis Americanus Sum Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Private militias are a bad idea. They answer to no authority or democratic organ. Any organized armed force must operate under the rule of law.

  7. #157
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Private militias are a bad idea. They answer to no authority or democratic organ. Any organized armed force must operate under the rule of law.
    Why bring up "private militias"?

    In the militia concept as held by the Founding Fathers and Framers, and embodied in the Constitution, any organized militia would have to be registered with the state governor and have officers that meet standards set by Congress. So those "private militias" running around in Idaho are, IMO, borderline illegal gangs.

    Just off the cuff, I'd say that officers for a citizens militia would have to have had the equivalent of two years in university ROTC, and every member would have to sign an agreement that in case of emergency the governor could call them up, preferably through the local sheriff, for local duty, at need. They'd effectively be signing up to be an on-call posse and emergency-response teams.

    And anyone who wants to own a fully automatic weapon would have to be a member, and the weapon would have to be either stored at the militia's secure facility, or its release countersigned by a militia officer -- who, in case of criminal misuse, would be liable right along with the owner.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #158
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Another dodge.

    You said that having laws on the books was a fact of death. But you defend your position by ignoring other facts: many states with death penalty laws on the books aren't using them, so [law on the books] does not equal [death]. And the statistics you're providing prove it: if your point was correct, then every state with a death penalty law would be executing people, but your figures show that's not true.

    So first you make a false assertion, and then you defend it with statistics that prove it's false.
    Keep playing the game...remain blind, and deaf it addresses your belief that executions are remote from your daily reality....when they are in fact a daily reminder that capital punishment is a regular routine in many American states....

  9. #159
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Keep playing the game...remain blind, and deaf it addresses your belief that executions are remote from your daily reality....when they are in fact a daily reminder that capital punishment is a regular routine in many American states....
    Five out of thirty-two states with the death penalty have made use of it recently*. In other words, eighty-four percent of the states did not kill anyone. In other words, eighty-four percent of the states with a death penalty law on the books had no deaths. In other words, eighty-four percent of the states with death penalty laws had no "fact of death".

    In other words, you are persisting with a lie you made.

    And now you add to it, because five states is not "many" by any means. And with only fourteen executions so far this year, it isn't "regular" by any stretch of the imagination. Last year there were thirty-nine executions, in nine states.+

    In other words, you're adding more deception to your original false claim.






    *http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2014
    +http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2013

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #160

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    If a group of people took someone off the street, locked them in a garage for several years, told them they would be killed on a certain day, arbitrarily changed the date, several times, then took them in chains, strapped them to a gurney and injected them with poison, or electrocuted them or gassed them to death in front of an invited audience, it would be deemed to be a heinous act of cruel, tortuous, premeditated first degree murder. So, those who facilitate and carry out the death penalty should face the same fate.

    There have been way too many cases where the person executed was believed to be 100% guilty but later turned out to be 100% innocent. Even with the most advanced forensic evidence, the most certain witnesses, the most determined legal minds, mistakes are possible, fraud is possible, corruption is possible, blind prejudice is possible, incompetence is possible. Resurrection of the dead is not.

    The death penalty is cold blooded revenge. It is demonstrably not a deterrent, in fact I would be willing to bet that the possibility of execution causes more murders than it prevents - why leave possible witnesses - they can only execute you once whether you kill 1 or the whole family?
    "I'm not a moccodity"

  11. #161
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    If a group of people took someone off the street...
    The difference is that a random person off the street has done nothing wrong. That's a big difference from someone who has committed a heinous crime.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  12. #162
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    If a group of people took someone off the street, locked them in a garage for several years, told them they would be killed on a certain day, arbitrarily changed the date, several times, then took them in chains, strapped them to a gurney and injected them with poison, or electrocuted them or gassed them to death in front of an invited audience, it would be deemed to be a heinous act of cruel, tortuous, premeditated first degree murder. So, those who facilitate and carry out the death penalty should face the same fate.
    This:

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The difference is that a random person off the street has done nothing wrong. That's a big difference from someone who has committed a heinous crime.
    The argument can be applied to taxes far better than to the death penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    There have been way too many cases where the person executed was believed to be 100% guilty but later turned out to be 100% innocent. Even with the most advanced forensic evidence, the most certain witnesses, the most determined legal minds, mistakes are possible, fraud is possible, corruption is possible, blind prejudice is possible, incompetence is possible. Resurrection of the dead is not.
    This is a valid argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    The death penalty is cold blooded revenge.
    "Revenge"? No, it just proceeds from a different philosophical approach to the dignity of human life.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #163

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The difference is that a random person off the street has done nothing wrong. That's a big difference from someone who has committed a heinous crime.
    And as I went on to say, many of those executed turn out to be a random person off the street and not guilty of a heinous crime.

    It also still does not counter my argument that the act of execution of a prisoner is in and of itself an act of cold blooded, premeditated murder. It is the deliberate killing of an unarmed person who, at the time he is killed, poses no threat to anyone.

    Are we not appalled by the use of the death penalty in other countries? Particularly in cases we see as going against our (current) view of morality and criminality (eg, Iran hanging gay people, Afghanistan stoning adulterous women, Pakistan executing blasphemers, N Korea executing political dissidents). Also there are many, not that far from holding the reigns of power, who would be happy to see some of those punishments meted out in America).
    "I'm not a moccodity"

  14. #164
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    And as I went on to say, many of those executed turn out to be a random person off the street and not guilty of a heinous crime.
    "Many" is an exaggeration. "Few" is the reality. But the institutions of Justice must be held to a higher standard: the only way to ensure the justice system can hope to make amends to someone wrongfully convicted, is to not kill the prisoner.

    But I must point this out: there are many crimes for which the criminal has no further ethical claim to his own right to life. He is not entitled to live. But the justice system is obliged to be able to correct its mistakes, and thus the prisoner must live as an incidental of this obligation.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  15. #165

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    "Many" is an exaggeration. "Few" is the reality. But the institutions of Justice must be held to a higher standard: the only way to ensure the justice system can hope to make amends to someone wrongfully convicted, is to not kill the prisoner.

    But I must point this out: there are many crimes for which the criminal has no further ethical claim to his own right to life. He is not entitled to live. But the justice system is obliged to be able to correct its mistakes, and thus the prisoner must live as an incidental of this obligation.
    For me, 1 is too many. Are you still OK with a margin of error if YOU happen to be the wrongly executed person? Haven't there been around 145 convictions overturned in recent years in America? There was a guy the other day who has spent 25 years in jail in New York (not a death penalty case, but could have been in other states) for a murder committed in New York when he was in Florida (and the police new this and hid the evidence).

    As for the right to life. The universal right to life covers everyone. I have no issue with people being killed in the commission of a crime or if they are a threat to those trying to arrest them, or if they are soldiers in battle. Once they are caught and incarcerated they are rendered safe and have the same right to life as anyone else.
    "I'm not a moccodity"

  16. #166
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    "Many" is an exaggeration. "Few" is the reality. But the institutions of Justice must be held to a higher standard: the only way to ensure the justice system can hope to make amends to someone wrongfully convicted, is to not kill the prisoner.

    But I must point this out: there are many crimes for which the criminal has no further ethical claim to his own right to life. He is not entitled to live. But the justice system is obliged to be able to correct its mistakes, and thus the prisoner must live as an incidental of this obligation.
    This depends on one's view of what society is, and the sort of contract under which it exists. Under some models, yes, someone who has committed certain crimes has forfeited his claim to any right to live. In essence, though, such models intrinsically hold that it is possible for the actions of a person can be an offense against others who were involved in no way, not even as innocent bystanders. That's where the "Mr. Wander v the State of New Murkistan" business comes from: it assumes some sort of situation where when Mr. Wander cut across the corner of Ms. Fitz's private land results in harm to not just Ms. Fitz but in some mysterious fashion to all her neighbors and every other person in Murkistan. That's a rather bizarre claim on the face of it; the claim becomes no less bizarre if Mr. Wander walked off with a pet or livestock or some other bit of Ms. Fitz's property.

    But when we get to the level of serious personal violation -- rape and murder being the big two -- the claim starts to seem more reasonable. We should ask ourselves why that's so, and whether it's rational or not.

    I skip pass that whole sorry mess by focusing only on who was actually harmed. No one not harmed has any business butting in (this gets a bit more complex when groups of associated persons are involved, but I'd rather stick to the simple situation here). The result is that only those who were harmed really have any say in matters of punishment, especially when the punishment is terminal.

    And we need that written into law: unless the family of a murder victim ask for the death penalty, the state shouldn't even be allowed to consider it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #167
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    For me, 1 is too many. Are you still OK with a margin of error if YOU happen to be the wrongly executed person? Haven't there been around 145 convictions overturned in recent years in America? There was a guy the other day who has spent 25 years in jail in New York (not a death penalty case, but could have been in other states) for a murder committed in New York when he was in Florida (and the police new this and hid the evidence).

    As for the right to life. The universal right to life covers everyone. I have no issue with people being killed in the commission of a crime or if they are a threat to those trying to arrest them, or if they are soldiers in battle. Once they are caught and incarcerated they are rendered safe and have the same right to life as anyone else.
    "1 is too many".

    There have been more than one who have been killed because laws said they couldn't have the means available to defend themselves. If one is too many, then those laws must go.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #168
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    For me, 1 is too many. Are you still OK with a margin of error if YOU happen to be the wrongly executed person? Haven't there been around 145 convictions overturned in recent years in America? There was a guy the other day who has spent 25 years in jail in New York (not a death penalty case, but could have been in other states) for a murder committed in New York when he was in Florida (and the police new this and hid the evidence).

    As for the right to life. The universal right to life covers everyone. I have no issue with people being killed in the commission of a crime or if they are a threat to those trying to arrest them, or if they are soldiers in battle. Once they are caught and incarcerated they are rendered safe and have the same right to life as anyone else.
    Oh, yes, I agree. One is too many. I would leave people in jail to ensure there was never even one person wrongly put to death. The only margin of error I accept is zero. But of all those people in jail, only the innocent have a right to live worth protecting. Those guilty of genocide, rape, murder, they don't really have a right to life at all. They are just riding on the coat-tails of the theoretical person we assume to have been wrongfully convicted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    This depends on one's view of what society is, and the sort of contract under which it exists. Under some models, yes, someone who has committed certain crimes has forfeited his claim to any right to live. In essence, though, such models intrinsically hold that it is possible for the actions of a person can be an offense against others who were involved in no way, not even as innocent bystanders. That's where the "Mr. Wander v the State of New Murkistan" business comes from: it assumes some sort of situation where when Mr. Wander cut across the corner of Ms. Fitz's private land results in harm to not just Ms. Fitz but in some mysterious fashion to all her neighbors and every other person in Murkistan. That's a rather bizarre claim on the face of it; the claim becomes no less bizarre if Mr. Wander walked off with a pet or livestock or some other bit of Ms. Fitz's property.

    But when we get to the level of serious personal violation -- rape and murder being the big two -- the claim starts to seem more reasonable. We should ask ourselves why that's so, and whether it's rational or not.

    I skip pass that whole sorry mess by focusing only on who was actually harmed. No one not harmed has any business butting in (this gets a bit more complex when groups of associated persons are involved, but I'd rather stick to the simple situation here). The result is that only those who were harmed really have any say in matters of punishment, especially when the punishment is terminal.

    And we need that written into law: unless the family of a murder victim ask for the death penalty, the state shouldn't even be allowed to consider it.
    Saying a society exists due to some sort of contract is like saying a tree exists in a forest due to a contract. That there is such a thing as society is a function of there being a human population on this planet.

    If you want to find the "contract" look to our genes.

    And there is no way for a criminal wrongdoer to contain harm to just one person such that it becomes a matter of merely private concern.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  19. #169
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Saying a society exists due to some sort of contract is like saying a tree exists in a forest due to a contract. That there is such a thing as society is a function of there being a human population on this planet.

    If you want to find the "contract" look to our genes.
    If there were a social contract in our genes, all societies would be identical.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  20. #170
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If there were a social contract in our genes, all societies would be identical.
    And each, and every human person...identical...I wonder why we are not...all, identical in our behaviour?

    Can't all be a matter of genes.....

  21. #171
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    The majority of people who want the death penalty do not want abortion. Then on Sundays when thy go to church the believe it when there are told that only God can take a life. Religion equals stupidity.

  22. #172
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    ^So you keep telling us...Ad nauseum....meantime, how's the weather in London...not too depressing?

  23. #173
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If there were a social contract in our genes, all societies would be identical.
    Exactly! If there were an eye colour specified in our genes, all our eyes would be identical....
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  24. #174
    Civis Americanus Sum Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Exactly! If there were an eye colour specified in our genes, all our eyes would be identical....
    LOL

    The Golden Rule actually is universal. It is the root of most rational moral code: against theft, stealing, etc., and for equality, justice, etc. I do actually think you are contracted without your consent, by writ of DNA, to treat others how you would like to be treated or at least how a reasonable person would.

    Separately, an individual's behavior is a product of gene expression and phenotype, which means that even identical twins with the same DNA can behave or feel differently, e.g. have dissimilar sexual orientations. We might have the same genes that encode social interactions that foster harmony, but there will always be crooks.
    Last edited by Alnitak; April 15th, 2014 at 06:05 AM.

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    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Yes. And epigenetics too.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Yes. And epigenetics too.

    Well noted....theorising that the environment i.e. nurturing of the subject might well also influence matter...to change for the better.

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