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  1. #101
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Here's a link detailing executions in the United States for the year 2014 where, it is noted that several states, apart from Texas continue to execute:

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2014

  2. #102
    The Hard Snow Held Me Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The fact remains that the majority of American states retain the right to execute....that today this right is not being exercised as once it was, does not change the fact that many states retain the right to execute....spin that fact any way you wish....until the laws are changed that fact of death remains on the statute books of many states....
    Yet you called my statement of facts optimistic.

    Thank you

  3. #103
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    ^Clearly my referencing "facts"...see my last link... in preference to your spin has not impressed you...let me make the facts transparent also noting that Texas is not the only state executing...it's amazing what revealing facts can do to enlighten the uninformed person

    Execution List 2014

    1/7/14 1360 FL Askari Muhamma 62 B 1 White Lethal Injection 3-drug w/ midazolam hydrochloride 30
    1/9/14 1361 OK Michael Wilson 38 B 1 White Lethal Injection 3-drug w/ pentobarbital 16
    1/16/14 1362 OH Dennis McGuire 53 W 1 White Lethal Injection 2-drug (midazolam + hydromorphone) 20
    1/22/14 1363 TX Edgar Tamayo~ 46 L 1 White Lethal Injection 1-drug (pentobarbital) 20
    1/24/14 1364 OK Kenneth Hogan 52 W 1 White Lethal Injection 3-drug w/ pentobarbital 11
    1/29/14 1365 MO Herbert Smulls 56 B 1 White Lethal Injection 1-drug (pentobarbital) 22
    2/5/14 1366 TX Suzanne Bassoƒ 59 W 1 White Lethal Injection 1-drug (pentobarbital) 15
    2/12/14 1367 FL Juan Chavez~ 46 L 1 White Lethal Injection 3-drug w/ midazolam hydrochloride 16
    2/26/14 1368 MO Michael Taylor 47 B 1 White Lethal Injection 1-drug (pentobarbital) 23
    2/26/14 1369 FL Paul Howell 48 B 1 White Lethal Injection 3-drug w/ midazolam hydrochloride 19
    3/19/14 1370 TX Ray Jasper 33 B 1 White Lethal Injection 1-drug (pentobarbital) 14
    3/20/14 1371 FL Robert Henry 55 B 1 White, 1 Black Lethal Injection 3-drug w/ midazolam hydrochloride 26
    3/26/14 1372 MO Jeffrey Ferguson 59 W 1 White Lethal Injection 1-drug (pentobarbital) 19

  4. #104
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by flashgordon85 View Post
    The backward countries have the death penalty. America prides itself to be a great democracy, but it is a country where firearms 's market is free .... and where the state kills people. It's terrible.
    I don't know what you mean by "firearm 's market is free", but the right to keep and bear arms is an inherent right. To deny its exercise is to deny human dignity -- to say, "You can't have the means of self-defense of your choice" is to say "Your life isn't worth defending".

    As an extension of that, the only legitimate place for the death penalty is at the hands of the intended victim(s), except perhaps in egregious cases of mass murder.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  5. #105
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The fact remains that the majority of American states retain the right to execute....that today this right is not being exercised as once it was, does not change the fact that many states retain the right to execute....spin that fact any way you wish....until the laws are changed that fact of death remains on the statute books of many states....
    You contradict yourself. There's no "fact of death" unless the law is actually applied.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  6. #106
    The Hard Snow Held Me Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    The "state" as a whole does not execute. The federal government has performed three executions since 1976, and the last one was in 2003.

  7. #107
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I don't know what you mean by "firearm 's market is free", but the right to keep and bear arms is an inherent right. To deny its exercise is to deny human dignity -- to say, "You can't have the means of self-defense of your choice" is to say "Your life isn't worth defending".
    All of history, and particularly that of your country, proves yours to be a false claim. Any illusion of merit in it can only be sustained in a society of mutual fear and contempt, and, indeed, disregard for human dignity.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    All of history, and particularly that of your country, proves yours to be a false claim. Any illusion of merit in it can only be sustained in a society of mutual fear and contempt, and, indeed, disregard for human dignity.
    You've got it totally backwards.

    The current European system merely says we'll let criminals decide who dies, and sort them out if we can catch them.

    And in the communities where I've lived where there are firearms in every household, and the kids learn to use them safely when they're old enough to be Boy Scouts, are the places where the regard for human dignity is highest -- along with personal safety.

    I have NEVER seen a community where firearms are few, that you can leave your door unlocked on house and car both, but I have lived in communities where you can see teenagers riding their bikes along the street to go out shooting where that is not just possible but the rule.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #109
    The Hard Snow Held Me Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    All of history, and particularly that of your country, proves yours to be a false claim. Any illusion of merit in it can only be sustained in a society of mutual fear and contempt, and, indeed, disregard for human dignity.


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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post

    Indeed appropriate to cite a work of fantasy in support of the gun lobby.

    Comprehensive disarmament demonstrates mutual respect for dignity. Readying oneself to shoot one's neighbours does not.

  11. #111
    The Hard Snow Held Me Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Indeed appropriate to cite a work of fantasy in support of the gun lobby.

    Comprehensive disarmament demonstrates mutual respect for dignity. Readying oneself to shoot one's neighbours does not.
    Not just a work of fiction, but a fable.

    LOL we are not readying to shoot our neighbors. You really don't understand American gun culture at all.

  12. #112
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    I understand US constitutional gun fetishism by its results. Here's a good primer at Slate.


    It's a failed social experiment and a constitutional embarrassment. And in thinking that disarmament is a kind of vulnerability, you show the limits of your own understanding.

  13. #113
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    As for the status of executions still being legal in 32 states, that's more noteworthy than which states are and are not using that "right" of applying the ultimate punishment. Just because one of those states (such as Georgia, I think - I didn't look at the list) is rarely if ever using it, doesn't mean that it could all change after the course of just one election. That, plus just one particularly horrific crime within that state's borders well before the election, could be enough for politicians to campaign on broader use of the death penalty - and win - and perhaps replace some important judges/justices. Death Row could become a (dis)assembly line...quickly.
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  14. #114
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Just because one of those states (such as Georgia, I think - I didn't look at the list) is rarely if ever using it …
    There have been five executions under the current governor. (Past 3 years, 2 months)

  15. #115
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I understand US constitutional gun fetishism by its results. Here's a good primer at Slate.


    It's a failed social experiment and a constitutional embarrassment. And in thinking that disarmament is a kind of vulnerability, you show the limits of your own understanding.
    So once again, you chime in on the side of the criminal, telling those of us who are alive because we were armed that we ought to be dead.

    That shows no regard for human dignity or the value of human life.


    BTW, the Slate article is so unscientific that citing it is a joke.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #116
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Not just a work of fiction, but a fable.

    LOL we are not readying to shoot our neighbors. You really don't understand American gun culture at all.
    Exactly. American gun culture is the Boy Scout cleaning his rifle in the living room who sees a cop go down across the street and moves to save the cop's life. It's the guy hiking in the woods seeing some pervert peeking into the sleeping bags of kids and chasing him away. It's the local heads of households turning out to keep watch to catch the armed convicts reported in the area. It's the mother seeing the coyote that's attacked pets and kids and ending that predator's life with a shot out the kitchen window. It's the father teaching about individual responsibility, civic duty, and safety in everything.

    What Slante and similar publications look at is American criminal culture, which is not the same thing at all.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #117
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Indeed appropriate to cite a work of fantasy in support of the gun lobby.

    Comprehensive disarmament demonstrates mutual respect for dignity. Readying oneself to shoot one's neighbours does not.
    Appropriate indeed to ignore truth because you don't like the source.

    And typical to stand on the side of the criminal. Your attitude would tell the gals I know who have been raped to just put up with it, and the one who had the gun that she should have just surrendered and put up with it.

    As for your last sentence, stop living in bullshit land.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #118
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Indeed appropriate to cite a work of fantasy in support of the gun lobby.

    Comprehensive disarmament demonstrates mutual respect for dignity. Readying oneself to shoot one's neighbours does not.
    What a wonderful world it must have been back in the days before the invention of the firearm when everyone lived in mutual respect and dignity?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  19. #119
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    What a wonderful world it must have been back in the days before the invention of the firearm when everyone lived in mutual respect and dignity?


    Priceless.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  20. #120
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    There have been five executions under the current governor. (Past 3 years, 2 months)
    It's worthwhile emphasising facts... there are a few here who prefer to deny published facts, preferring spin to defend the indefensible.

  21. #121
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You contradict yourself. There's no "fact of death" unless the law is actually applied.
    The law (execution - a fact of death) is being applied with some 13 executions, over several states (not just bad ass Texas) so far in 2014...

    Seemingly you've decided to over look the death list..2014..thus, far:

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2014
    Last edited by kallipolis; March 27th, 2014 at 01:37 AM.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Having lived in the heart of the so called bible belt in the states, my favourite is the so called Christian Right telling you that only God can take a live, that abortion is wrong but believing in the death penalty. Hypocrites and ass holes.

  23. #123
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So once again, you chime in on the side of the criminal, telling those of us who are alive because we were armed that we ought to be dead.

    That shows no regard for human dignity or the value of human life.
    Much like a poker player with a twitch, whenever you begin a reply with "So you..." it invariably indicates you don't like having to contend with an idea someone has posted, that you have no reply to the concept, and that you'd like to spin it as fast as you can.

    Anyway, I'm telling you you should be alive not because you're a better marksman than your would-be assailant, but because your assailant should never have been in a position to threaten you such that it would even matter if you were armed or not.

    Americans gun culture teaches you to live in a dangerous community because if anything goes wrong you can always shoot 'em. American gun culture teaches you to live with political incompetence and incipient tyrants because if anything goes wrong you can always shoot 'em. American gun culture teaches you to put up with the threat of rape because if anything goes wrong you can always shoot 'em.

    It is the most reactive, after-the-horse-has-left-the-barn way of arranging a community securely and guaranteeing the safety of the individuals within it. Indeed it is hard to imagine a community attitude toward safety with less foresight than that of American gun culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    BTW, the Slate article is so unscientific that citing it is a joke.
    I predict that only two posts after dismissing a published piece of journalism with disclosed methodology as my source, you will complain that I dismiss the wisdom of a fictional character from an adolescent fantasy novel as a credible source in support of the gun lobby.

  24. #124
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The law (execution - a fact of death) is being applied with some 13 executions, over several states (not just bad ass Texas) so far in 2014...

    Seemingly you've decided to over look the death list..2014..thus, far:

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2014
    Stop dodging.

    You asserted that because there's a law on the books, there's a "fact of death". That's false.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #125
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Anyway, I'm telling you you should be alive not because you're a better marksman than your would-be assailant, but because your assailant should never have been in a position to threaten you such that it would even matter if you were armed or not.
    So you want to ban two-by-fours, surf boards, and tire irons.

    Your position is a fantasy. There's no way to take lethal items away from people who want to be lethal.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Americans gun culture teaches you to live in a dangerous community because if anything goes wrong you can always shoot 'em. American gun culture teaches you to live with political incompetence and incipient tyrants because if anything goes wrong you can always shoot 'em. American gun culture teaches you to put up with the threat of rape because if anything goes wrong you can always shoot 'em.
    You've got it backwards in every case. American gun culture says to come to the aid of someone being raped. Your view says let 'em be raped, it'll only last till the cops get here. And it's the newspapers that tell us we live in a dangerous community.

    You insist that we trust those in power to take care of us. Ask the Jews of Warsaw how that turned out.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It is the most reactive, after-the-horse-has-left-the-barn way of arranging a community securely and guaranteeing the safety of the individuals within it. Indeed it is hard to imagine a community attitude toward safety with less foresight than that of American gun culture.
    Again backwards. Your position says I should get beaten up and possibly killed, and we only worry about it when the cops arrive half an hour later. It's NOT being able to defend yourself that is a "after-the-horse-has-left-the-barn way of arranging a community securely" -- you wait until after people have been murdered or raped or assaulted to do anything.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  26. #126
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    American gun culture is about responsibility and civic duty. For some it is even about survival. A gun is a sacred object to be treated with respect. One of the major problems facing safety with guns is a deterioration of American gun culture in recreational gun use. Tragedy strikes when American gun culture is betrayed, and guns end up in the wrong person's hands. No one should support a gun free for all or deregulation. American gun culture must be ordained by education and law, or we will continue to see gun violence. Trying to stamp it out also won't work. Gun ownership is in our blood.
    Last edited by Alnitak; March 27th, 2014 at 03:19 PM.

  27. #127
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    American gun culture is about responsibility and civic duty. For some it is even about survival. A gun is a sacred object to be treated with respect. One of the major problems facing safety with guns is a deterioration of American gun culture in recreational gun use. Tragedy strikes when American gun culture is betrayed, and guns end up in the wrong person's hands. No one should support a gun free for all or deregulation. American gun culture must be ordained by education and law, or we will continue to see gun violence. Trying to stamp it out also won't work. Gun ownership is in our blood.
    But we need to get rid of the politicians who aren't willing to apply Congress' authority "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and ... training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress". A "well-regulated militia" doesn't leave firearms around for anyone to pick up and use, and certainly doesn't include people known to be dangerous to others.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  28. #128
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Stop dodging.

    You asserted that because there's a law on the books, there's a "fact of death". That's false.
    Not according to the execution statistics which you insist on denying despite me providing the facts of death repeated here for your education. Your sophistic replies might well mesmerise you...not me...

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2014

  29. #129
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Not according to the execution statistics which you insist on denying despite me providing the facts of death repeated here for your education. Your sophistic replies might well mesmerise you...not me...

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2014
    Another dodge.

    You said that having laws on the books was a fact of death. But you defend your position by ignoring other facts: many states with death penalty laws on the books aren't using them, so [law on the books] does not equal [death]. And the statistics you're providing prove it: if your point was correct, then every state with a death penalty law would be executing people, but your figures show that's not true.

    So first you make a false assertion, and then you defend it with statistics that prove it's false.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; March 28th, 2014 at 01:08 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    But we need to get rid of the politicians who aren't willing to apply Congress' authority "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and ... training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress". A "well-regulated militia" doesn't leave firearms around for anyone to pick up and use, and certainly doesn't include people known to be dangerous to others.
    Do you know odd your repeated stance is in these threads? It sounds very para-military ridiculous to many in urban or the sprawling megalopolis suburbs. I know it's not your intent and you are serious but its laughable in 2014 to think such a program would even be considered in a sea of fast food, Best Buys, Targets, & SUVS pulling up to soccer Moms 2/3 car garage cookie cutter homes sprawling out in the burbs.
    I am not in favor of banning guns nor afraid of them. I understand the desire to have a gun. I have a couple rifles and a Glock 9 mm, but this civilian militia stuff is too funny.
    Disciplining , organizing, & arming.... man to much!!! If anyone wants that they can join the volunteer armed forces, this isn't 1777 or even 1812.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by vulgar_newcomer View Post
    Do you know odd your repeated stance is in these threads? It sounds very para-military ridiculous to many in urban or the sprawling megalopolis suburbs. I know it's not your intent and you are serious but its laughable in 2014 to think such a program would even be considered in a sea of fast food, Best Buys, Targets, & SUVS pulling up to soccer Moms 2/3 car garage cookie cutter homes sprawling out in the burbs.
    I am not in favor of banning guns nor afraid of them. I understand the desire to have a gun. I have a couple rifles and a Glock 9 mm, but this civilian militia stuff is too funny.
    Disciplining , organizing, & arming.... man to much!!! If anyone wants that they can join the volunteer armed forces, this isn't 1777 or even 1812.
    So you think people with guns should be allowed to behave any way they please? Just leave them laying around, let other people walk off with them and shoot people, buy guns even though public institutions know the individuals are a danger to others?

    What you're saying here boils down to "I endorse the slack policies that have allowed mental cases to shoot up people in public over the last couple of decades".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  32. #132
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Private militias are a bad idea. They answer to no authority or democratic organ. Any organized armed force must operate under the rule of law.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Private militias are a bad idea. They answer to no authority or democratic organ. Any organized armed force must operate under the rule of law.
    Why bring up "private militias"?

    In the militia concept as held by the Founding Fathers and Framers, and embodied in the Constitution, any organized militia would have to be registered with the state governor and have officers that meet standards set by Congress. So those "private militias" running around in Idaho are, IMO, borderline illegal gangs.

    Just off the cuff, I'd say that officers for a citizens militia would have to have had the equivalent of two years in university ROTC, and every member would have to sign an agreement that in case of emergency the governor could call them up, preferably through the local sheriff, for local duty, at need. They'd effectively be signing up to be an on-call posse and emergency-response teams.

    And anyone who wants to own a fully automatic weapon would have to be a member, and the weapon would have to be either stored at the militia's secure facility, or its release countersigned by a militia officer -- who, in case of criminal misuse, would be liable right along with the owner.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Another dodge.

    You said that having laws on the books was a fact of death. But you defend your position by ignoring other facts: many states with death penalty laws on the books aren't using them, so [law on the books] does not equal [death]. And the statistics you're providing prove it: if your point was correct, then every state with a death penalty law would be executing people, but your figures show that's not true.

    So first you make a false assertion, and then you defend it with statistics that prove it's false.
    Keep playing the game...remain blind, and deaf it addresses your belief that executions are remote from your daily reality....when they are in fact a daily reminder that capital punishment is a regular routine in many American states....

  35. #135
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Keep playing the game...remain blind, and deaf it addresses your belief that executions are remote from your daily reality....when they are in fact a daily reminder that capital punishment is a regular routine in many American states....
    Five out of thirty-two states with the death penalty have made use of it recently*. In other words, eighty-four percent of the states did not kill anyone. In other words, eighty-four percent of the states with a death penalty law on the books had no deaths. In other words, eighty-four percent of the states with death penalty laws had no "fact of death".

    In other words, you are persisting with a lie you made.

    And now you add to it, because five states is not "many" by any means. And with only fourteen executions so far this year, it isn't "regular" by any stretch of the imagination. Last year there were thirty-nine executions, in nine states.+

    In other words, you're adding more deception to your original false claim.






    *http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2014
    +http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2013

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  36. #136

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    If a group of people took someone off the street, locked them in a garage for several years, told them they would be killed on a certain day, arbitrarily changed the date, several times, then took them in chains, strapped them to a gurney and injected them with poison, or electrocuted them or gassed them to death in front of an invited audience, it would be deemed to be a heinous act of cruel, tortuous, premeditated first degree murder. So, those who facilitate and carry out the death penalty should face the same fate.

    There have been way too many cases where the person executed was believed to be 100% guilty but later turned out to be 100% innocent. Even with the most advanced forensic evidence, the most certain witnesses, the most determined legal minds, mistakes are possible, fraud is possible, corruption is possible, blind prejudice is possible, incompetence is possible. Resurrection of the dead is not.

    The death penalty is cold blooded revenge. It is demonstrably not a deterrent, in fact I would be willing to bet that the possibility of execution causes more murders than it prevents - why leave possible witnesses - they can only execute you once whether you kill 1 or the whole family?
    "I'm not a moccodity"

  37. #137
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    If a group of people took someone off the street...
    The difference is that a random person off the street has done nothing wrong. That's a big difference from someone who has committed a heinous crime.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    If a group of people took someone off the street, locked them in a garage for several years, told them they would be killed on a certain day, arbitrarily changed the date, several times, then took them in chains, strapped them to a gurney and injected them with poison, or electrocuted them or gassed them to death in front of an invited audience, it would be deemed to be a heinous act of cruel, tortuous, premeditated first degree murder. So, those who facilitate and carry out the death penalty should face the same fate.
    This:

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The difference is that a random person off the street has done nothing wrong. That's a big difference from someone who has committed a heinous crime.
    The argument can be applied to taxes far better than to the death penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    There have been way too many cases where the person executed was believed to be 100% guilty but later turned out to be 100% innocent. Even with the most advanced forensic evidence, the most certain witnesses, the most determined legal minds, mistakes are possible, fraud is possible, corruption is possible, blind prejudice is possible, incompetence is possible. Resurrection of the dead is not.
    This is a valid argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    The death penalty is cold blooded revenge.
    "Revenge"? No, it just proceeds from a different philosophical approach to the dignity of human life.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  39. #139

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The difference is that a random person off the street has done nothing wrong. That's a big difference from someone who has committed a heinous crime.
    And as I went on to say, many of those executed turn out to be a random person off the street and not guilty of a heinous crime.

    It also still does not counter my argument that the act of execution of a prisoner is in and of itself an act of cold blooded, premeditated murder. It is the deliberate killing of an unarmed person who, at the time he is killed, poses no threat to anyone.

    Are we not appalled by the use of the death penalty in other countries? Particularly in cases we see as going against our (current) view of morality and criminality (eg, Iran hanging gay people, Afghanistan stoning adulterous women, Pakistan executing blasphemers, N Korea executing political dissidents). Also there are many, not that far from holding the reigns of power, who would be happy to see some of those punishments meted out in America).
    "I'm not a moccodity"

  40. #140
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    And as I went on to say, many of those executed turn out to be a random person off the street and not guilty of a heinous crime.
    "Many" is an exaggeration. "Few" is the reality. But the institutions of Justice must be held to a higher standard: the only way to ensure the justice system can hope to make amends to someone wrongfully convicted, is to not kill the prisoner.

    But I must point this out: there are many crimes for which the criminal has no further ethical claim to his own right to life. He is not entitled to live. But the justice system is obliged to be able to correct its mistakes, and thus the prisoner must live as an incidental of this obligation.

  41. #141

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    "Many" is an exaggeration. "Few" is the reality. But the institutions of Justice must be held to a higher standard: the only way to ensure the justice system can hope to make amends to someone wrongfully convicted, is to not kill the prisoner.

    But I must point this out: there are many crimes for which the criminal has no further ethical claim to his own right to life. He is not entitled to live. But the justice system is obliged to be able to correct its mistakes, and thus the prisoner must live as an incidental of this obligation.
    For me, 1 is too many. Are you still OK with a margin of error if YOU happen to be the wrongly executed person? Haven't there been around 145 convictions overturned in recent years in America? There was a guy the other day who has spent 25 years in jail in New York (not a death penalty case, but could have been in other states) for a murder committed in New York when he was in Florida (and the police new this and hid the evidence).

    As for the right to life. The universal right to life covers everyone. I have no issue with people being killed in the commission of a crime or if they are a threat to those trying to arrest them, or if they are soldiers in battle. Once they are caught and incarcerated they are rendered safe and have the same right to life as anyone else.
    "I'm not a moccodity"

  42. #142
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    "Many" is an exaggeration. "Few" is the reality. But the institutions of Justice must be held to a higher standard: the only way to ensure the justice system can hope to make amends to someone wrongfully convicted, is to not kill the prisoner.

    But I must point this out: there are many crimes for which the criminal has no further ethical claim to his own right to life. He is not entitled to live. But the justice system is obliged to be able to correct its mistakes, and thus the prisoner must live as an incidental of this obligation.
    This depends on one's view of what society is, and the sort of contract under which it exists. Under some models, yes, someone who has committed certain crimes has forfeited his claim to any right to live. In essence, though, such models intrinsically hold that it is possible for the actions of a person can be an offense against others who were involved in no way, not even as innocent bystanders. That's where the "Mr. Wander v the State of New Murkistan" business comes from: it assumes some sort of situation where when Mr. Wander cut across the corner of Ms. Fitz's private land results in harm to not just Ms. Fitz but in some mysterious fashion to all her neighbors and every other person in Murkistan. That's a rather bizarre claim on the face of it; the claim becomes no less bizarre if Mr. Wander walked off with a pet or livestock or some other bit of Ms. Fitz's property.

    But when we get to the level of serious personal violation -- rape and murder being the big two -- the claim starts to seem more reasonable. We should ask ourselves why that's so, and whether it's rational or not.

    I skip pass that whole sorry mess by focusing only on who was actually harmed. No one not harmed has any business butting in (this gets a bit more complex when groups of associated persons are involved, but I'd rather stick to the simple situation here). The result is that only those who were harmed really have any say in matters of punishment, especially when the punishment is terminal.

    And we need that written into law: unless the family of a murder victim ask for the death penalty, the state shouldn't even be allowed to consider it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  43. #143
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    For me, 1 is too many. Are you still OK with a margin of error if YOU happen to be the wrongly executed person? Haven't there been around 145 convictions overturned in recent years in America? There was a guy the other day who has spent 25 years in jail in New York (not a death penalty case, but could have been in other states) for a murder committed in New York when he was in Florida (and the police new this and hid the evidence).

    As for the right to life. The universal right to life covers everyone. I have no issue with people being killed in the commission of a crime or if they are a threat to those trying to arrest them, or if they are soldiers in battle. Once they are caught and incarcerated they are rendered safe and have the same right to life as anyone else.
    "1 is too many".

    There have been more than one who have been killed because laws said they couldn't have the means available to defend themselves. If one is too many, then those laws must go.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  44. #144
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    For me, 1 is too many. Are you still OK with a margin of error if YOU happen to be the wrongly executed person? Haven't there been around 145 convictions overturned in recent years in America? There was a guy the other day who has spent 25 years in jail in New York (not a death penalty case, but could have been in other states) for a murder committed in New York when he was in Florida (and the police new this and hid the evidence).

    As for the right to life. The universal right to life covers everyone. I have no issue with people being killed in the commission of a crime or if they are a threat to those trying to arrest them, or if they are soldiers in battle. Once they are caught and incarcerated they are rendered safe and have the same right to life as anyone else.
    Oh, yes, I agree. One is too many. I would leave people in jail to ensure there was never even one person wrongly put to death. The only margin of error I accept is zero. But of all those people in jail, only the innocent have a right to live worth protecting. Those guilty of genocide, rape, murder, they don't really have a right to life at all. They are just riding on the coat-tails of the theoretical person we assume to have been wrongfully convicted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    This depends on one's view of what society is, and the sort of contract under which it exists. Under some models, yes, someone who has committed certain crimes has forfeited his claim to any right to live. In essence, though, such models intrinsically hold that it is possible for the actions of a person can be an offense against others who were involved in no way, not even as innocent bystanders. That's where the "Mr. Wander v the State of New Murkistan" business comes from: it assumes some sort of situation where when Mr. Wander cut across the corner of Ms. Fitz's private land results in harm to not just Ms. Fitz but in some mysterious fashion to all her neighbors and every other person in Murkistan. That's a rather bizarre claim on the face of it; the claim becomes no less bizarre if Mr. Wander walked off with a pet or livestock or some other bit of Ms. Fitz's property.

    But when we get to the level of serious personal violation -- rape and murder being the big two -- the claim starts to seem more reasonable. We should ask ourselves why that's so, and whether it's rational or not.

    I skip pass that whole sorry mess by focusing only on who was actually harmed. No one not harmed has any business butting in (this gets a bit more complex when groups of associated persons are involved, but I'd rather stick to the simple situation here). The result is that only those who were harmed really have any say in matters of punishment, especially when the punishment is terminal.

    And we need that written into law: unless the family of a murder victim ask for the death penalty, the state shouldn't even be allowed to consider it.
    Saying a society exists due to some sort of contract is like saying a tree exists in a forest due to a contract. That there is such a thing as society is a function of there being a human population on this planet.

    If you want to find the "contract" look to our genes.

    And there is no way for a criminal wrongdoer to contain harm to just one person such that it becomes a matter of merely private concern.

  45. #145
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Saying a society exists due to some sort of contract is like saying a tree exists in a forest due to a contract. That there is such a thing as society is a function of there being a human population on this planet.

    If you want to find the "contract" look to our genes.
    If there were a social contract in our genes, all societies would be identical.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  46. #146
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If there were a social contract in our genes, all societies would be identical.
    And each, and every human person...identical...I wonder why we are not...all, identical in our behaviour?

    Can't all be a matter of genes.....

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    The majority of people who want the death penalty do not want abortion. Then on Sundays when thy go to church the believe it when there are told that only God can take a life. Religion equals stupidity.

  48. #148
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    ^So you keep telling us...Ad nauseum....meantime, how's the weather in London...not too depressing?

  49. #149
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If there were a social contract in our genes, all societies would be identical.
    Exactly! If there were an eye colour specified in our genes, all our eyes would be identical....

  50. #150
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Exactly! If there were an eye colour specified in our genes, all our eyes would be identical....
    LOL

    The Golden Rule actually is universal. It is the root of most rational moral code: against theft, stealing, etc., and for equality, justice, etc. I do actually think you are contracted without your consent, by writ of DNA, to treat others how you would like to be treated or at least how a reasonable person would.

    Separately, an individual's behavior is a product of gene expression and phenotype, which means that even identical twins with the same DNA can behave or feel differently, e.g. have dissimilar sexual orientations. We might have the same genes that encode social interactions that foster harmony, but there will always be crooks.
    Last edited by Alnitak; April 15th, 2014 at 06:05 AM.

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