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  1. #51
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Again, you are not arguing for the plaintiff and are giving too much benefit of the doubt to the defendant. Why don't you try flipping the coin and arguing for the plaintiff/victim for once. See things from their side and see what you come up with.
    THis isn't addressing the argument I posted nor the links I posted of grievous errors within DNA crime labs. And it isn't just a .00001% chance the DNA evidence is wrong. Apparently in several major crime labs there have been major errors that were consistently made.

    To that I ask, "What about the 99.9999% chance that the DNA evidence and other evidence collected in the case is correct? What about the 12 year old girl who was raped, mutilated, and murdered? What about justice for her and for her family who has to live with knowing their daughter's killer gets to live off their tax dollars for the rest of his life-- which he is more than content with doing?
    So, executing him which would cost more tax dollars then a life sentence is better? A life sentence is more of a punishment then the death penalty.

    So we get to feed him, house him, allow himself to be entertained by watching television, playing recreation, etc. ... all because you are ignoring the 99.9999% chance he is guilty and are arguing the .000001% chance that the forensic evidence is wrong?
    This is a very weak argument. The death penalty again is a long process, where the execution date could be many years away and it actually costs more then a life sentence. So that's a fallacious argument.

    Something tells me that if this happened to a daughter of yours, a sister, etc. you would be singing a much different tune.
    I'm calling BS on that one. Try to stay away from red herrings. I'm not in favor of state sanctioned murder no matter the case.

    On a side note, where people are getting this idea that putting criminals found guilty of committing heinous crimes to death is barbaric, is truly beyond me. What they did was "barbaric". We don't torture them. We don't cut off their heads, throw acid in their eyes (like in Iran), cut off limbs ... etc.
    It is barbaric because it's state sanctioned murder and it's not better then the crime itself. And your reasoning is poorly supported at best.

    We put them to death because they have zero place being in our society for the crimes they committed and are enacting justice for their victims and their families.
    It's nothing about justice. It's about exacting revenge, and when that happens what good is the justice system? Why don't you just skip trials, and go right to street justice?

    And I'm going to agree with the other poster who replied to this. Your post is just scare mongering... and it doesn't even provide any proof. Maybe you should take the time and refute the sources I've posted. In the meantime stay away from strawman and red herring arguments.

  2. #52
    JUB Addict MystikWizard's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    THis isn't addressing the argument I posted nor the links I posted of grievous errors within DNA crime labs. And it isn't just a .00001% chance the DNA evidence is wrong. Apparently in several major crime labs there have been major errors that were consistently made.

    So, executing him which would cost more tax dollars then a life sentence is better? A life sentence is more of a punishment then the death penalty.

    This is a very weak argument. The death penalty again is a long process, where the execution date could be many years away and it actually costs more then a life sentence. So that's a fallacious argument.

    I'm calling BS on that one. Try to stay away from red herrings. I'm not in favor of state sanctioned murder no matter the case.

    It is barbaric because it's state sanctioned murder and it's not better then the crime itself. And your reasoning is poorly supported at best.

    It's nothing about justice. It's about exacting revenge, and when that happens what good is the justice system? Why don't you just skip trials, and go right to street justice?

    And I'm going to agree with the other poster who replied to this. Your post is just scare mongering... and it doesn't even provide any proof. Maybe you should take the time and refute the sources I've posted. In the meantime stay away from strawman and red herring arguments.
    It's 10:43 at night for me on the East Coast and I have to get up at 5 in the morning. I am not going to do one of these line by line responses this evening, as I simply don't have time to do it. Bed time for me. Maybe tomorrow.

    All I will say for tonight is that the majority in the rest of the country simply disagree with your outlook on the Death Penalty for some reason. The majority in this country, Republicans and Democrats, agree the Death Penalty should stay. And they have their reasons for it.

    So come up with this, that, and every other excuse you want, the bottom line is that it isn't going to do any good and you aren't going to get your way.

    Too bad. Life isn't fair.
    Telling it like it is.

  3. #53
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    All I will say for tonight is that the majority in the rest of the country simply disagree with your outlook on the Death Penalty for some reason. The majority in this country, Republicans and Democrats, agree the Death Penalty should stay. And they have their reasons for it.
    And I've said I don't care about majority opinion. I'm sure a slight majority still disagree with same sex marriage. Majority opinion isn't how I view what is just or not. The majority doesn't have valid reasons to keep the death penalty. Many who support it follow the sheep mentality (and I'm not saying anyone here, but rather in general).

    So come up with this, that, and every other excuse you want, the bottom line is that it isn't going to do any good and you aren't going to get your way.

    Too bad. Life isn't fair.
    Wow. Where did I say I wanted to get my way in this country? I know this country has a lot of fear mongering irrational people... that won't change. In the meantime I will do my own thing.

    I think your same line there is what anti-gay marriage people say to gay people "What you are doing isn't going to do any good and you aren't going to get your way"... sure.

    Life isn't fair? I'm not going to make this personal, but that was just silly to say to me.

  4. #54
    mitchymo
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    I don't know if it WAS Gandhi who said it actually, or just mis-attributed to him, but, "you can judge a greatness of a nation by the way it treats its animals"

    Yes, he was referring to livestock, but serial killers etc are hardly human.

    The most just, and morally acceptable punishment is to life imprisonment without release.

    Chance1 listed some crimes which he felt were deserving of the death penalty and noted that he did not feel uncivilised. Well, take a trip to Iran, and ask the average man there, if he feels uncivilised about gay people being hung.

    Its not about being civil, its about being humane.
    If you claim that murder is abhorrent, you need to practice that mentality, and the death penalty contradicts that. Justifiying it, is simply excusing yourselves for your lack of humanity.

  5. #55

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    <<Have any of you who live in states that have the death penalty can explain this fact? How do you conceive this atrocity?>>

    I am an American and I can't explain it at all. It saddens me that this is something that goes on and that so many citizens support it. I've always belived that you can judge the quality of a country by how it treats the least of it's citizens. So many countries have abolished capital punishment and are doing just fine

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    I believe that the application of the death penalty depends on the crime being committed. It should be reserved for the most extreme cases, if used at all.

    Take this case for example. This crime was abhorrent. It is one of the most disturbing and horrifying acts you could possibly imagine. The woman and her cousin that planned and carried out the crime deserved the death penalty. They murdered three people (including a 10 year old girl) and cut an unborn child from the mother's womb. THAT is a crime deserving of the death penalty.

  7. #57

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    <<Take this case for example. This crime was abhorrent. It is one of the most disturbing and horrifying acts you could possibly imagine. The woman and her cousin that planned and carried out the crime deserved the death penalty. They murdered three people (including a 10 year old girl) and cut an unborn child from the mother's womb. THAT is a crime deserving of the death penalty. >>

    I can read that and absolutely say, "Wow, those people don't deserve to be alive".... That still doesn't mean that the country should do the same things and kill the person. When Bin Laden was killed I immediately thought that he never really paid for his crimes. His victims never had the chance to see him really punished because he was probably instantly killed and didn't even know what was happening.. Does anyone else agree??

  8. #58

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    All I will say for tonight is that the majority in the rest of the country simply disagree with your outlook on the Death Penalty for some reason. The majority in this country, Republicans and Democrats, agree the Death Penalty should stay. And they have their reasons for it.
    This is no longer necessarily true. CNN did a poll recently and found that a slight majority favored life in prison over the death penalty. http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/im.../12/rel16j.pdf

    The death penalty is barbaric. No civilized country executes people. It's really that simple. The death penalty is not a deterrent. Indeed, the states that execute people have higher crime rates than the states that don't. The existence of the death penalty demeans our country. It should be abolished.

  9. #59
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    This is no longer necessarily true. CNN did a poll recently and found that a slight majority favored life in prison over the death penalty. http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/im.../12/rel16j.pdf

    The death penalty is barbaric. No civilized country executes people. It's really that simple. The death penalty is not a deterrent. Indeed, the states that execute people have higher crime rates than the states that don't. The existence of the death penalty demeans our country. It should be abolished.
    Well said. Greece ceased to execute many years ago.

    Greece is experiencing a rapidly increasing crime rate - possibly because of our deepening economic crisis - especially in fraud, burglary, and petty offences such as pick pocketing on public transport. Nevertheless our crime rate remains very, very low when comparing with the United States.

  10. #60

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    One of the reasons we need the death penalty is to protect society from liberal judges, eager to release vicious criminals into society on technicalities. It is only way to insure finality.

  11. #61
    mitchymo
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    One of the reasons you don't need the death penalty is to protect society from conservative judges, eager to impose excessive sentences onto potential innocents on technicalities. It is the only way to insure fairness.

  12. #62
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Of course the DNA can be wrong. ANY chance that someone can be executed from flawed evidence or someone testifying or outright lying is the main reason executions must be stopped.
    FrankFrank you are right about putting white men on the jury. There is proof that the prosecuting attorney wants the conviction and therefore caused the judge to not accept evidence that would prove them wrong.

    And, chance when you learn something about what goes on in Texas then you can respond to threads about it. Race and sexual orientation are very much a part of this discussion.
    Why must you always bring your demeaning other posters every time you post?
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  13. #63
    Banned chance1's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    ^ sounds like a state issue to me

    not an issue with the idea that capital punishment for the most extreme criminals - murderers, rapists and terrorists who are convicted - is not a valid policy and one that serves the public good

    i suggest u read the thread again

    i don't demean those who believe that capital punishment is barbaric or uncivilized

    i DISAGREE with them

    i respect their opinion

    it's not an ALL OR NOTHING thing

    it's a divergence of opinion thing

    and 61% or americans think one way

    if it was the opposite, I'd be hard pressed to make my case

    yet the ones who do make it sound like they're the only ones with valid thoughts on the issue

    JUB a dub dub

  14. #64
    Sex God PolterGUYst's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    What about when somebody has admitted to their heinous crimes? What about when there is evidence on tape of somebody committing a heinous crime, or they're simply caught in the act? What then, when there is no doubt that this person committed these crimes?

    I agree that unless there is concrete evidence, the death penalty should not be an option. However, there are cases where the evidence is concrete.
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  15. #65
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    This is no longer necessarily true. CNN did a poll recently and found that a slight majority favored life in prison over the death penalty. http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/im.../12/rel16j.pdf

    The death penalty is barbaric. No civilized country executes people. It's really that simple. The death penalty is not a deterrent. Indeed, the states that execute people have higher crime rates than the states that don't. The existence of the death penalty demeans our country. It should be abolished.
    One keeps bringing up a 61% number, but that poll clearly shows that opinions are shifting, especially over the past few years. Now a slight majority favor life imprisonment instead of the death penalty.

    Even those few developed countries in Asia that still have it on the books rarely implement it and are in the process of phasing it out. I'm a bit ashamed of California though with regards to the death penalty. It's something we need to abolish immediately.

  16. #66
    mitchymo
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    You can justify it as much as you like, its still just legalised murder. The reason is not a humane one, its revenge, its punishment, its abhorrent, and thats why most of the west don't want it back on their books.

  17. #67

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    This is not a debate which you can win with labels.

  18. #68
    Sex God PolterGUYst's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The reason is not a humane one,
    One could easily argue that keeping certain prisoners in tiny rooms for hours and hours a day on end with no human contact is inhumane. Give it a try sometime and I'm sure it won't take you long to feel the effects. Does that mean we shouldn't lock dangerous criminals up?

    I want to ask all of you whether or not you were happy when, say, Osama bin Laden was killed. Yes, I know he wasn't an American citizen on trial in a courtroom, but he was an individual who committed heinous crimes against humanity, and he was hunted down and killed. If he was, for whatever reason, captured alive, would you have supported his right to live? Because frankly, if you wouldn't have, then you're being completely hypocritical.
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    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by PolterGUYst View Post
    One could easily argue that keeping certain prisoners in tiny rooms for hours and hours a day on end with no human contact is inhumane. Give it a try sometime and I'm sure it won't take you long to feel the effects. Does that mean we shouldn't lock dangerous criminals up?

    I want to ask you people whether or not you were happy when, say, Osama Bin Laden was killed. Yes, I know he wasn't an American citizen on trial in a courtroom, but he was an individual who committed heinous crimes against humanity, and he was hunted down and killed. If he was captured alive, would you have supported his right to live?
    Yes, because I do not permit him to impose his sense of justice upon my choices.

  20. #70
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by PolterGUYst View Post
    If he was, for whatever reason, captured alive, would you have supported his right to live? Because frankly, if you wouldn't have, then you're being completely hypocritical.
    I'll answer this. Yes, I think he should have been tried and sent to prison for the rest of his life. It also wouldn't create a martyr. I'm against the death penalty in all circumstances.

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    Sex God PolterGUYst's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    But it's okay that he was shot and killed, right? It's okay that he was basically sentenced to death for his crimes? Are you going to tell me that you were disgusted when you heard he was killed? For all intents and purposes, he was given the death penalty - the US government took away his life. Do you consider that wrong?
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  22. #72
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by PolterGUYst View Post
    But it's okay that he was shot and killed, right? It's okay that he was basically sentenced to death for his crimes? Are you going to tell me that you were disgusted when you heard he was killed? For all intents and purposes, he was basically given the death penalty - the US government took away his life. Do you consider that wrong?
    I think he should have been captured and tried in a court of law. I'm not going to answer the other loaded questions. The US government basically created a martyr and for that they made a major error.

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    Sex God PolterGUYst's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    He was going to be seen as a martyr to extremists regardless of what was done to him.
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  24. #74
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by PolterGUYst View Post
    He was going to be seen as a martyr to extremists regardless of what was done to him.
    Not exactly. If he was captured, less so.

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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by PolterGUYst View Post
    I want to ask all of you whether or not you were happy when, say, Osama bin Laden was killed. Yes, I know he wasn't an American citizen on trial in a courtroom, but he was an individual who committed heinous crimes against humanity, and he was hunted down and killed. If he was, for whatever reason, captured alive, would you have supported his right to live? Because frankly, if you wouldn't have, then you're being completely hypocritical.
    It is illegal for the US government to go out and assassinate people. Is that always enforced? I don't have a clue.

    What happened to Bin Laden isn't applicable, there are too many other factors involved that set him apart from serial killers. If you want to draw a parallel, use Timothy McVeigh, who was tried and convicted under out system.

    The question for me and most people is not whether there are evil people, it's whether you are willing to accept executing the inevitable innocent or two in order to execute the rest.

    Well? Are you?

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I'll answer this. Yes, I think he should have been tried and sent to prison for the rest of his life. It also wouldn't create a martyr. I'm against the death penalty in all circumstances.
    Unless there are serious questions surrounding their guilt, those that are executed aren't viewed as anything resembling martyrs after they die. Most often, they're just forgotten, as if they never existed.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    It is illegal for the US government to go out and assassinate people. Is that always enforced? I don't have a clue.

    What happened to Bin Laden isn't applicable, there are too many other factors involved that set him apart from serial killers. If you want to draw a parallel, use Timothy McVeigh, who was tried and convicted under out system.

    The question for me and most people is not whether there are evil people, it's whether you are willing to accept executing the inevitable innocent or two in order to execute the rest.

    Well? Are you?
    The answer any thinking person would give is no. However, it is not an all or nothing situation as you are attempting to cast it. Just because execution exists does not mean that there will always be one or two innocents executed among the rest.

    What is needed are stricter usage guidelines for it. Simple murder is not enough to justify its use. Situations like that case I posted above, or with McVeigh, should be up for discussion.

  28. #78
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Not exactly ,jb3. He still would be viewed as a martyr... who died at American hands.

    Still doesn't change the fact that the death penalty is immoral and barbaric. It has no place in any modern legal system.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    The answer any thinking person would give is no. However, it is not an all or nothing situation as you are attempting to cast it. Just because execution exists does not mean that there will always be one or two innocents executed among the rest.

    What is needed are stricter usage guidelines for it. Simple murder is not enough to justify its use. Situations like that case I posted above, or with McVeigh, should be up for discussion.
    In fact it is an all or nothing situation because there is no judicial system that is without error. Period. Every system that uses capitol punishment in the history of mankind has executed the innocent, sometimes egregiously so. It only becomes a grey area once you can guarantee that no innocents will be executed.

    As it stands, you are either willing to accept that, or you are not. I'm not making a value judgment as you are attempting to cast it. fact is that a lot of people are willing to overlook that.

    I bring it up because people inevitably argue that X is heinous and deserves to die - therefore death penalty.

    X may in fact be heinous and deserve to die, but Y was innocent and we killed him anyway, can you accept that?

    Tight controls on the death penalty, waiting periods, mandatory appeals are a very good idea if you're going to use it, and Texas became the execution capital of the nation because those things were relaxed, by people who argued X is heinous ad deserves to die and were perfectly willing to sacrifice a few innocents along the way - as it has been comprehensively proven we have done a lot more than once, we also execute the mentally retarded, but even tight controls and checks DO NOT guarantee infallibility.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Not exactly ,jb3. He still would be viewed as a martyr... who died at American hands.

    Still doesn't change the fact that the death penalty is immoral and barbaric. It has no place in any modern legal system.
    In your opinion. Others disagree.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    In fact it is an all or nothing situation because there is no judicial system that is without error. Period. Every system that uses capitol punishment in the history of mankind has executed the innocent, sometimes egregiously so. It only becomes a grey area once you can guarantee that no innocents will be executed.

    As it stands, you are either willing to accept that, or you are not. I'm not making a value judgment as you are attempting to cast it. fact is that a lot of people are willing to overlook that.

    I bring it up because people inevitably argue that X is heinous and deserves to die - therefore death penalty.

    X may in fact be heinous and deserve to die, but Y was innocent and we killed him anyway, can you accept that?

    Tight controls on the death penalty, waiting periods, mandatory appeals are a very good idea if you're going to use it, and Texas became the execution capital of the nation because those things were relaxed, by people who argued X is heinous ad deserves to die and were perfectly willing to sacrifice a few innocents along the way - as it has been comprehensively proven we have done a lot more than once, we also execute the mentally retarded, but even tight controls and checks DO NOT guarantee infallibility.
    It is most certainly not all or nothing, and you ignored the rest of my post on how you can make it so. The only people that make the argument that it is all or nothing are those with an agenda against the death penalty. Tighter controls, and a much more limited application would eliminate the possibility of any innocents being executed. If the pool of those criminals that is eligible for death is limited severely, and the requirements for any sentence of death, it would certainly eliminate the possibility of an innocent individual being executed.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    I didn't ignore anything, and there is no way you can eliminate the possibility of innocents being executed in any system run by humans.

    All you're saying is that we'll just make it harder - which is fine and a good idea; then pretend it's infallible - which is not.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Most of the states that still execute people in this country have a large population of people of Scotch-Irish descent. Benjamin Franklin described the Scotch-Irish as white savages. Savages support state-sanctioned murder of people. I think this should answer the op's question.
    Um...Massachusetts doesn't have a death penalty. (There are a *LOT* of Irish in Massachusetts.)

    Does Texas have the highest percentage of Scottish-Irish descent of all the states? I don't think so.

    But what matters is not the demographics of the entire state, but the demographics of those who write the laws.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    This is a very weak argument. The death penalty again is a long process, where the execution date could be many years away and it actually costs more then a life sentence. So that's a fallacious argument.
    I've ALWAYS **hated** this argument. Of course it's absolutely true - but it's also one that the Deathers love to seize upon and, therefore, say that the judicial process needs to be streamlined. Possible exculpatory evidence which might lead to an acquittal? That's a plot complication - "we don't want THAT - it will just make the process longer." Run the appeals through quickly and fry him.

    G, I agree with everything you said in this post, 100%. No number of executions has ever brought back one murdered person, and if the possibility of an extreme sentence isn't a deterrent, a possible death sentence isn't either. Generally nobody does a premeditated murder unless they think they can get away with it, unless they're considering the possibility of dying themselves (either via suicide, or suicide-by-cop).
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by PolterGUYst View Post
    One could easily argue that keeping certain prisoners in tiny rooms for hours and hours a day on end with no human contact is inhumane. Give it a try sometime and I'm sure it won't take you long to feel the effects. Does that mean we shouldn't lock dangerous criminals up?

    I want to ask all of you whether or not you were happy when, say, Osama bin Laden was killed. Yes, I know he wasn't an American citizen on trial in a courtroom, but he was an individual who committed heinous crimes against humanity, and he was hunted down and killed. If he was, for whatever reason, captured alive, would you have supported his right to live? Because frankly, if you wouldn't have, then you're being completely hypocritical.
    Actually, in bin-Laden's case, if he had been captured alive and sentenced to life without chance of parole, that would have been a FAR greater punishment for his deeds. Being killed as a martyr (or however it may be looked at) is one of the pinnacles and honors for some people of the Islamic faith, so it is entirely possible that the outcome wasn't a "punishment" for him at all and, therefore, he was possibly held entirely unaccountable for his deeds.
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I'll answer this. Yes, I think he should have been tried and sent to prison for the rest of his life. It also wouldn't create a martyr. I'm against the death penalty in all circumstances.
    Uhh...you beat me to it (you have a knack of doing that, haha)
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Tight controls on the death penalty, waiting periods, mandatory appeals are a very good idea if you're going to use it, and Texas became the execution capital of the nation because those things were relaxed, by people who argued X is heinous ad deserves to die and were perfectly willing to sacrifice a few innocents along the way - as it has been comprehensively proven we have done a lot more than once, we also execute the mentally retarded, but even tight controls and checks DO NOT guarantee infallibility.
    Just curious, TX-beau, how long is the process from initial conviction to death in Texas...and, compared to elsewhere? I'm willing to bet that it is much more quick and streamlined than in most other places, which allows for shoddy verdicts and sloppy discovery, etc. The more shortcuts there are, the more likely it is that innocents will be killed.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

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  38. #88
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    if you were falsely accused of a crime, would you trust the cast of the Jersey Shore with deciding if you should live or die?

    that's all the argument I need against the death penalty.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    What is needed are stricter usage guidelines for it. Simple murder is not enough to justify its use. Situations like that case I posted above, or with McVeigh, should be up for discussion.
    Exactly. Nobody says it's okay that innocent people are sent to death. It's absolutely terrible. The guidelines should be very strict. The death penalty applies in very rare circumstances, but there have been and will be certain circumstances where there is no doubt regarding the person's guilt to heinous crimes.

    The defense that "well, you could be killing an innocent person" isn't a good argument against the death penalty in my eyes as the exact same thing could be said about any type of punishment inflicted on a person who is wrongfully found guilty, and I highly doubt most of you guys would support the elimination of our entire penal system because this has happened before. Using that logic, why don't we eliminate life in prison without the possibility of parole, also an extremely harsh and devastating sentence (some might argue a punishment worse than death if they believe the experience to be torturous), just because innocent people have been wrongly convicted before? The answer is because the issue you have is not with the punishment of life in prison itself, but with the legal process that determines when such a punishment is appropriate.
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  40. #90
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Guidelines aren't perfect. The death penalty should never be applied. And yes, it's a very good argument against the usage of the death penalty because even with the so called guidelines you can still have mistakes. There is a reason why most developed countries have phased out capital punishment.

    And life without parole can be reduced or eliminated, and the person set free if they are found to be innocent. If you execute them, and they are found to be innocent after the fact, you can't bring the person back. Now, your argument isn't a good one.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Guidelines aren't perfect. The death penalty should never be applied. And yes, it's a very good argument against the usage of the death penalty because even with the so called guidelines you can still have mistakes. There is a reason why most developed countries have phased out capital punishment.

    And life without parole can be reduced or eliminated, and the person set free if they are found to be innocent. If you execute them, and they are found to be innocent after the fact, you can't bring the person back. Now, your argument isn't a good one.
    Hence making it very, very limited, with very strict guidelines for its usage.

  42. #92
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Hence why it's better to eliminate it completely, and never implement it.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Just curious, TX-beau, how long is the process from initial conviction to death in Texas...and, compared to elsewhere? I'm willing to bet that it is much more quick and streamlined than in most other places, which allows for shoddy verdicts and sloppy discovery, etc. The more shortcuts there are, the more likely it is that innocents will be killed.
    I don't know. I think it depends on several things. One of the biggest problems though, is that the board of appeals are all political appointees - who like to appear tough on crime, just so you know, no one can say they weren't when they run for the Texas legislature.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by PolterGUYst View Post
    Exactly. Nobody says it's okay that innocent people are sent to death. It's absolutely terrible. The guidelines should be very strict. The death penalty applies in very rare circumstances, but there have been and will be certain circumstances where there is no doubt regarding the person's guilt to heinous crimes.
    Every court that ever imposed the death penalty was certain of the defendant's guilt and heinousness - or they wouldn't have imposed it. That didn't make them infallible.

    Quote Originally Posted by PolterGUYst View Post
    The defense that "well, you could be killing an innocent person" isn't a good argument against the death penalty in my eyes as the exact same thing could be said about any type of punishment inflicted on a person who is wrongfully found guilty, and I highly doubt most of you guys would support the elimination of our entire penal system because this has happened before. Using that logic, why don't we eliminate life in prison without the possibility of parole, also an extremely harsh and devastating sentence (some might argue a punishment worse than death if they believe the experience to be torturous), just because innocent people have been wrongly convicted before? The answer is because the issue you have is not with the punishment of life in prison itself, but with the legal process that determines when such a punishment is appropriate.
    This is just an emotional jump to extremes. Not logic. There is no parallel between a sentence that can be reversed, and one there is no possibility of reversing.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    You can't "reverse" a sentence like that. First of all, there are innocent people who have died in prison. Second of all, even for those who have been found not guilty after the fact, the damage has already been done. Their name has been soiled, years of their life wasted, abandoned by family and friends, been forced to live through an extremely traumatic experience that some will never be able to recover from. And, as I said, some may view life in prison to be torturous and therefore a worse sentence than death.

    If the defense against having harsh punishment is that there have been innocent people convicted before, then why are there not more people in favor of eliminating other punishments for the same reason? That is why, for me, that argument against the death penalty doesn't fly.
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    There are plenty of people who deplore the state of our prisons - but the fact remains, that for everything BUT the death penalty there is room for error.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    There are plenty of people who deplore the state of our prisons - but the fact remains, that for everything BUT the death penalty there is room for error.
    You cannot in one breath argue that there is no room for error with the death penalty, and in another say that there is room for error with prison sentences. You're basically saying that its perfectly okay for the defects in the system to exist, as long as only prison is involved. What I've been saying is that ANY defects at all are unacceptable.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    I'm not even talking about the state of the prisons. Even if they were cleaned up, many would consider a sentence of life in prison to be torturous.

    And arguing that finding a person not-guilty after having ruined their life is "room for error" is shaky at best. I've never gone through it myself so I couldn't say what my thoughts would be for sure in such a situation, but I can certainly envision myself relishing the idea of death if I had my lovely life absolutely destroyed after a wrongful conviction, so saying that it's somehow better to be wrongfully convicted and then found innocent than to not live at all is entirely subjective.
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    You cannot in one breath argue that there is no room for error with the death penalty, and in another say that there is room for error with prison sentences. You're basically saying that its perfectly okay for the defects in the system to exist, as long as only prison is involved. What I've been saying is that ANY defects at all are unacceptable.
    Huh? I didn't say anything about how it's just peachy keen to have defects in the system, that was invented by the two of you not me.

    In fact I'm stating CATEGORICALLY that there are defects in the system and it's NOT ok, and that's why irreversible measures SHOULD NOT be taken.

    Once you execute someone that's it. Lock someone up and throw away the key, and you can still get a locksmith to come let them out.

    Can you give them their years back? Hell no, but what would you rather have, be dead and exonerated? Or still be alive and be exonerated?


    Quote Originally Posted by PolterGUYst View Post
    I'm not even talking about the state of the prisons. Even if they were cleaned up, many would consider a sentence of life in prison to be torturous.

    And arguing that finding a person not-guilty after having ruined their life is "room for error" is shaky at best. I've never gone through it myself so I couldn't say what my thoughts would be for sure in such a situation, but I can certainly envision myself relishing the idea of death if I had my lovely life absolutely destroyed after a wrongful conviction, so somehow saying that it's better to be wrongfully convicted and then found innocent is better than death is entirely subjective.
    That's a silly comparison for anyone advocating EXECUTION. It's just so kind is it, they why are you LETTING heinous evilness GET OFF with execution? Should you not be demanding life without parole since then they'll come to "...relish the idea of death.."

    Tell my why are you so soft on evil heinousness? LOL

  50. #100

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Um...Massachusetts doesn't have a death penalty. (There are a *LOT* of Irish in Massachusetts.)

    Does Texas have the highest percentage of Scottish-Irish descent of all the states? I don't think so.

    But what matters is not the demographics of the entire state, but the demographics of those who write the laws.
    The Scotch-Irish are descendants of Scottish protestant settlers the British brought to Northern Ireland after evicting the native Irish Catholics from huge swaths of land in Ulster. The Irish in Massachusetts, and most of the Northeast, are almost entirely Irish Catholics.

    FYI, many of our early presidents were of Scotch-Irish descent, like Jackson, Polk, Buchanon, Grant, as well as a couple of 20th Century ones, like McKinley and Nixon.

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