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  1. #1

    Death penality in American's states

    Why America is considered the empire of democracy if it still exists in some states the death penalty??

    I am European and I can not conceive the death penalty, I can not understand it.

    Some centuries ago, Cesare Beccaria spoke about death penalty ..... and I can not conceive how America is still behind mentally.

    Have any of you who live in states that have the death penalty can explain this fact? How do you conceive this atrocity?

  2. #2
    loki81
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    the death penalty is morally abhorrent... but I don't understand what it has to do with the US being considered a democracy?

  3. #3

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    In a democracy, the laws are made by the people, either directly or through their elected representatives. In most States the people prefer to retain the death penalty. Some crimes are so horrible that no other outcome seems fair. If the taking if life is not punished by the maximum, it devalues human life.

  4. #4
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    No developed country that considers itself a democracy should have the death penalty. I believe the US executes more people then Saudi Arabia. And we can also consider this country in the same level as Belarus. It doesn't matter what the people prefer to retain. Sometimes the majority can be wrong.

    The death penalty needs to be phased out immediately.

  5. #5
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by flashgordon85 View Post
    Have any of you who live in states that have the death penalty can explain this fact? How do you conceive this atrocity?
    It is part of the social contract. Specific offenses call for the citizen carrying out such a crime to forfeit his/her life.

    My state performed 4 of the 43 executions that took place last year in the US.

  6. #6

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Look up the definition of democracy. It is the choice of the people to make, even if you disagree.

  7. #7
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Look up the definition of democracy. It is the choice of the people to make, even if you disagree.
    Sounds like mob rule to me. Look at it this way, a majority of people once approved of banning interracial marriage. A majority of people in certain states once approved of segregation. Does that make it right? No.

    That's not the definition of democracy... and certainly not a definition of the so called "republic" this country is supposed to be.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Even though I am a Democrat, I do support the Death Penalty in certain cases. My opinion is going to be very hard to change on that.

    If there is strong enough evidence (including DNA) of a certain heinous crime, then yes, I will support it. I think there is a tendency to provide too much benefit to the defendant as opposed to seeking justice for the victim. Many Liberals will say "oh, but we just aren't sure" or "there is that chance they didn't do it" or "it's barbaric" ... and all that stuff.

    Let's say a little girl gets raped, murdered, and her head gets cut off by the killer ... and we have strong DNA evidence which places the suspect at the crime scene, testimonials from citizens claiming that something about the suspect "wasn't right" ... he shows a history of abuse, etc. ... are we really going to argue for the defendant in this case? What about justice for the little girl who was murdered and mutilated? What about justice for her family? That kind of sick, twisted individual has no place in our society.

    But like I said, this needs to be a pretty open and shut case, and there needs to be strong DNA evidence to support the verdict to consider the Death Penalty. Otherwise, it should be "Life in Prison with No Parole".

    I do think the costs to put someone to death are ridiculous, however.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    I strongly believe that some crimes are so heinous, so horrific, so unfathomable that the death penalty is warranted, that the best thing to do would be to remove this person from society permanently. Research the work of some prominent serial killers and tell me that you think the families of the victims should feel secure knowing that the person who raped/murdered/dismembered their child (and possibly other unspeakable things) is sitting alive in jail, not even having to worry about how they are going to get their next meal because somebody is providing it for them, most likely satisfied and happy with themselves for having done what they've done.
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  10. #10
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    I think one who commits a horrible rape should have a life sentence. The death penalty is just an easy way out... I'd rather the rapist or murderer spend the rest of their life in prison. Of course, evidence permitting.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Sounds like mob rule to me. Look at it this way, a majority of people once approved of banning interracial marriage. A majority of people in certain states once approved of segregation. Does that make it right? No.

    That's not the definition of democracy... and certainly not a definition of the so called "republic" this country is supposed to be.
    Pure democracy is basically the same as mob rule.

  12. #12
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    Pure democracy is basically the same as mob rule.
    There is no pure democracy. And America is a republic, supposedly.

  13. #13

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    You are never given the option of executing only the guilty . I can think ( Canada ) of three cases where people who in the States could have been executed who were later found to be innocent . You can only execute all and hope they are all 100% guilty and issue a sincere heartfelt apology when you later find you executed an innocent .

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    There is no pure democracy. And America is a republic, supposedly.
    The official name of our system of government is "federal republic".

    The only other first world country I know that still has capital punishment is Japan.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by csb999 View Post
    You are never given the option of executing only the guilty . I can think ( Canada ) of three cases where people who in the States could have been executed who were later found to be innocent . You can only execute all and hope they are all 100% guilty and issue a sincere heartfelt apology when you later find you executed an innocent .
    Which is why it needs to be an open and shut case. DNA evidence must be present in order to even begin simply considering the Death Penalty, in my opinion.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    In a democracy, the laws are made by the people, either directly or through their elected representatives. In most States the people prefer to retain the death penalty. Some crimes are so horrible that no other outcome seems fair. If the taking if life is not punished by the maximum, it devalues human life.
    How so ?
    Money devalues human life !!!


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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    There is no pure democracy. And America is a republic, supposedly.
    I'm aware of that, it just seemed like your post was saying that mob rule was not the definition of democracy, and I was just saying that in a basic sense it is.

  18. #18

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    I've always thought life without parole is a worse sentence than death. To live within a prison with no hope of release is to me the ultimate penalty--which I would prefer.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Despite being fairly liberal... I can back up the death penalty for the worst offences. But only in zero doubt situations. The USA has sent so many people to death only to find out later that they were innocent. That's a sin, man. Think about those peoples's families. Their relative's name run through the mud and then killed... Sorry just doesn't cut it.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Last year there was a thread about the executions in Texas. I was FOR the death penalty however posting in that thread I was convinced to change my position, and I have. This is the main cause of that change in me.
    Cameron Willingham was executed because our fine upstanding Republican Governor, Rick Perry, who ran an embarrassing campaign for President failed to take the information about this being wrong and he let Willingham be executed. Therefore, I will always say that our Governor is a murderer.
    Read through this Innocent Project site and you will see what is being tried to get the death penality stopped.
    I like GiancarloC's suggestion. Let them rot in jail for the rest of their lives.


    http://www.innocenceproject.org/Cont...d_in_Texas.php

    Cameron Todd Willingham: Wrongfully Convicted and Executed in Texas

    Cameron Todd Willingham was executed in Texas in 2004 for allegedly setting a fire that killed his three young daughters 13 years earlier. He always claimed his innocence, and the arson investigation used to convict him was questioned by leading experts before Willingham was executed. Since 2004, further evidence in the case has led to the inescapable conclusion that Willingham did not set the fire for which he was executed.

    The Texas Forensic Science Commission issued its report on the convictions of Cameron Todd Willingham and Ernest Willis on April 15, 2011 recommending more education and training for fire investigators and implementing procedures to review old cases (the commission issued an addendum to the report on October 28, 2011.
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    That poor bastard! First he loses his children, then his government destroys his life, then his government kills him...

  22. #22
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Last year there was a thread about the executions in Texas. I was FOR the death penalty however posting in that thread I was convinced to change my position, and I have. This is the main cause of that change in me.
    Cameron Willingham was executed because our fine upstanding Republican Governor, Rick Perry, who ran an embarrassing campaign for President failed to take the information about this being wrong and he let Willingham be executed. Therefore, I will always say that our Governor is a murderer.
    Read through this Innocent Project site and you will see what is being tried to get the death penality stopped.
    I like GiancarloC's suggestion. Let them rot in jail for the rest of their lives.


    http://www.innocenceproject.org/Cont...d_in_Texas.php
    Wow. That just proves my case. One wrongly convicted and executed person amounts to reason to end capital punishment entirely. And to think that people were willing to support Rick Perry. I did not know about that case...

    At least with jail, if future evidence comes up they can get their convictions overturned. If there is evidence proving ones innocent found after the fact, the state executed a innocent man. Or with the gross incompetence of a politician failing to stop an execution that was wrong.

    It simply has to end. There can always be mistakes too... even with the so called iron clad DNA evidence.

    http://www.forensicsguy.com/benchnot...-dna-evidence/

    https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/(S(o...ookieSupport=1

    Ask yourself this: What if one is convicted with DNA evidence, and the case against the defendant seems 100% secure. The defendant is then sentenced to death. The defendant is executed. A short while later, the crime lab is faulted for mistakes and turns out the evidence was incorrect.

    And one might say... well the defense should dispute the credibility... but what if it doesn't? Not every defendant can afford the best defense attorneys.

    Look, it has happened before... DNA Crime labs have made grievous errors. I'm not undermining the significance of DNA evidence. It is vital for cases. However, there is always the possibility of lab error... is this a chance you're willing to take?

    Even Japan rarely implements the death penalty anymore. There is great public debate to outlaw it in that country.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    No developed country that considers itself a democracy should have the death penalty. I believe the US executes more people then Saudi Arabia. And we can also consider this country in the same level as Belarus. It doesn't matter what the people prefer to retain. Sometimes the majority can be wrong.

    The death penalty needs to be phased out immediately.
    i agree that sometimes the majority can be "wrong" as in the case of civil rights for individuals who have done no wrong

    as for the death penalty, reasonable people can disagree as to what is to be done with criminals who have committed heinous crimes

    I am for the death penalty in cases of:

    murder
    rape
    treason

    and I don't believe it is uncivilized

  24. #24
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    i agree that sometimes the majority can be "wrong" as in the case of civil rights for individuals who have done no wrong

    as for the death penalty, reasonable people can disagree as to what is to be done with criminals who have committed heinous crimes

    I am for the death penalty in cases of:

    murder
    rape
    treason

    and I don't believe it is uncivilized
    There is always the chance that there can be errors with evidence, and there has been with DNA evidence in the past. I cannot and will not support the death penalty.

    Reasonable people should understand that the state shouldn't be executing anyone. It's been phased out in numerous countries. There is more to one serving the rest of his natural life in prison that seems more of a punishment in my eyes.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Wow. That just proves my case. One wrongly convicted and executed person amounts to reason to end capital punishment entirely. And to think that people were willing to support Rick Perry.
    Not merely support him...but give a STANDING OVATION when it's mentioned that he had executed 234 people, more than anybody else in American judicial history.

    Barbaric.

    Retarded.
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    There is only one standard for conviction under the criminal code of civilised countries: beyond the shadow of a doubt.

    Yet we have seen time and time again that this standard was insufficient to protect entirely innocent people from being convicted. And I don't mean "guilty people who were wrongfully convicted." I mean innocent people who had no part in the crime for which they were made to pay.

    So, I accept the premise that some people commit crimes bad enough that they deserve to forfeit their lives. I accept the death sentence as fitting. However I would also insist on a revolving 80 year stay of execution, where the clock counting down from 80 again any time proof is uncovered of an innocent person being convicted.

    The criminal justice system has to go smoothly with no miscarriages of justice for more than a generation until it can be said to be fit to implement the death penalty.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    There is always the chance that there can be errors with evidence, and there has been with DNA evidence in the past. I cannot and will not support the death penalty.

    Reasonable people should understand that the state shouldn't be executing anyone. It's been phased out in numerous countries. There is more to one serving the rest of his natural life in prison that seems more of a punishment in my eyes.
    there's always a chance that when you step outside your door you can get hit by lightning

    there's always a chance .......... is not the reason to do or not do something

    as for "reasonable people should understand"

    that's just not the case - it's YOUR case and that's cool - but thinking that YOUR POV is the only one is just dumb

    people disagree about this and it's a legit disagreement

    here's a gallup poll and the #s suggest this is not just a republican/democrat thing - 61% favor it in the case of murder - 61%


  28. #28
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    there's always a chance that when you step outside your door you can get hit by lightning

    there's always a chance .......... is not the reason to do or not do something

    as for "reasonable people should understand"

    that's just not the case - it's YOUR case and that's cool - but thinking that YOUR POV is the only one is just dumb

    people disagree about this and it's a legit disagreement
    That's such a weak argument. Walking out your door and getting hit by lightning is not comparable to the state wrongly executing an innocent person (which has happened). I'm sorry, but if there is even 1 or 2 innocents people who get executed out of hundreds, the entire concept needs to be phased out.

    Can you respond to an argument without posting strawmans and meaningless polls? I wasn't talking about about public support for capital punishment in this country. You can't seem to respond to anything else I write, especially regarding to crime lab error. And of course it's a reason to end the death penalty.

    I never said my POV is the only one. Obviously there are those in favor of capital punishment. What I am saying is that outlawing capital punishment is the only sensible thing to do.

    here's a gallup poll and the #s suggest this is not just a republican/democrat thing - 61% favor it in the case of murder - 61%
    I don't care. The majority can be wrong and this case are.

    And one can only look at the argument you presented basically saying: A innocent person might get executed, but that's no reason to stop the death penalty...

    You can't make this up. I'm sorry but that's completely unreasonable.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    ^ strawmans and meaningless polls?

    get over yourself

    as usual you're incapable of believing that anything that is in opposition to YOUR POV is reasonable or sensible

    that it could just be a reasonable difference of opinion

  30. #30
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    You get over yourself. This discussion that is beyond your conceptual understanding. I'm happy that my thread on common versus civil law wasn't wrecked by your one liners and lack of proof.

    I've just made a solid case against you, and you can't dispute it.

    You basically said "If one or two innocent people are executed who cares? It's no reason to stop the death penalty". And I'm saying that's a nonsensical argument.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    The argument against capitol punishment has never been that there are no people so evil they deserve to die.

    Trying to make that the argument is easy and makes you feel all tingly and superior - but it's utterly beside the point.

    The question is -are you willing to permit the inevitable executions of innocent people and call that acceptable losses.

    We here in Texas are intimately familiar with that dilemma, and a lot of people in this country are quite willing to overlook the execution of a few innocents in order to feel all righteous and shit - and that is indeed barbaric.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    I don't think that a fallible human institution like our justice system (not to mention one that is suspect on a number of touchy issues like race and sexual orientation) should be making irreversible decisions.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    You get over yourself. This discussion that is beyond your conceptual understanding. I'm happy that my thread on common versus civil law wasn't wrecked by your one liners and lack of proof.

    I've just made a solid case against you, and you can't dispute it.

    You basically said "If one or two innocent people are executed who cares? It's no reason to stop the death penalty". And I'm saying that's a nonsensical argument.
    conceptual understanding?

    it's a very basic argument - yours is simply that an error can be made - and has been made

    and that it's barbaric

    it's not a difficult thing to understand

    it's quite simple actually so don't overthink it

    I think executions/death penalty should be used sparingly - i don't know enough about the state of texas to say one way or the other that they use is too frequently or that they don't apply the strictest of measures

    i believe there some crimes where the only just result is death

    and 61% of the american public believe it

    so get off your high horse cause it's making you dizzy

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The argument against capitol punishment has never been that there are no people so evil they deserve to die.
    Actually you do sometimes hear that argument coming from Europe or parts of Canada (Quebecers of all political stripes, or socialists from the West Coast) and I've always found it laughable. Of course some people merit death by their actions.

    It is the willingness of a justice system to inflict collateral damage on innocent people where the line is crossed to barbarism.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I don't think that a fallible human institution like our justice system (not to mention one that is suspect on a number of touchy issues like race and sexual orientation) should be making irreversible decisions.
    race and sexual orientation???

    why are you bringing this up?

  36. #36
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post

    I think executions/death penalty should be used sparingly - i don't know enough about the state of texas to say one way or the other that they use is too frequently or that they don't apply the strictest of measures

    i believe there some crimes where the only just result is death

    and 61% of the american public believe it

    so get off your high horse cause it's making you dizzy
    You're the one that should get off your high horse. I don't care what the American public believes. They are often wrong and in this case they are. I've already presented a case against it, and you have presented nothing in favor of it besides a poll.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    You're the one that should get off your high horse. I don't care what the American public believes. They are often wrong and in this case they are. I've already presented a case against it, and you have presented nothing in favor of it besides a poll.
    my belief is not that you're wrong

    it's that we disagree

    and there's room for that disagreement

    i get your position - i just don't agree

    so i'm not the one on the horse

    and i love the "they"

    and i love your "case"

    you love to say how great your case is all the time

    it's really fucking funny

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    race and sexual orientation???

    why are you bringing this up?
    If you can't figure it out from context, I can't help you.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Actually you do sometimes hear that argument coming from Europe or parts of Canada (Quebecers of all political stripes, or socialists from the West Coast) and I've always found it laughable. Of course some people merit death by their actions.

    It is the willingness of a justice system to inflict collateral damage on innocent people where the line is crossed to barbarism.
    I agree with you wholeheartedly.

  40. #40
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    my belief is not that you're wrong

    it's that we disagree

    and there's room for that disagreement

    i get your position - i just don't agree

    so i'm not the one on the horse

    and i love the "they"

    and i love your "case"

    you love to say how great your case is all the time

    it's really fucking funny
    Then I presume you have nothing to back at your argument, besides more strawmans and non-sequiters.

  41. #41

    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Most of the states that still execute people in this country have a large population of people of Scotch-Irish descent. Benjamin Franklin described the Scotch-Irish as white savages. Savages support state-sanctioned murder of people. I think this should answer the op's question.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Please. As someone of Scotch descent, I don't resemble your remark.

    Anyway the people of Scotch-Irish descent in Franklin's time were probably in fact Scots or Irish. These days we're just mostly Americans.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Most of the states that still execute people in this country have a large population of people of Scotch-Irish descent. Benjamin Franklin described the Scotch-Irish as white savages. Savages support state-sanctioned murder of people. I think this should answer the op's question.
    wow

    tell us how you really feel

    I prefer to think of Ben Franklin as discovering electricity and other inventions

    not as one who had such vile thoughts

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Most of the states that still execute people in this country have a large population of people of Scotch-Irish descent. Benjamin Franklin described the Scotch-Irish as white savages. Savages support state-sanctioned murder of people. I think this should answer the op's question.
    Whatever.


    I live in Texas and we execute more criminals than any other state in the Union and it's still not enough. Some people commit such terrible crimes that giving up there own life is justified in my opinion. We need to change how we execute people. It needs to be public and held more often.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Wow. That just proves my case. One wrongly convicted and executed person amounts to reason to end capital punishment entirely. And to think that people were willing to support Rick Perry. I did not know about that case...

    At least with jail, if future evidence comes up they can get their convictions overturned. If there is evidence proving ones innocent found after the fact, the state executed a innocent man. Or with the gross incompetence of a politician failing to stop an execution that was wrong.

    It simply has to end. There can always be mistakes too... even with the so called iron clad DNA evidence.

    http://www.forensicsguy.com/benchnot...-dna-evidence/

    https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/(S(o...ookieSupport=1

    Ask yourself this: What if one is convicted with DNA evidence, and the case against the defendant seems 100% secure. The defendant is then sentenced to death. The defendant is executed. A short while later, the crime lab is faulted for mistakes and turns out the evidence was incorrect.

    And one might say... well the defense should dispute the credibility... but what if it doesn't? Not every defendant can afford the best defense attorneys.

    Look, it has happened before... DNA Crime labs have made grievous errors. I'm not undermining the significance of DNA evidence. It is vital for cases. However, there is always the possibility of lab error... is this a chance you're willing to take?

    Even Japan rarely implements the death penalty anymore. There is great public debate to outlaw it in that country.
    Again, you are not arguing for the plaintiff and are giving too much benefit of the doubt to the defendant. Why don't you try flipping the coin and arguing for the plaintiff/victim for once. See things from their side and see what you come up with.

    You keep saying "What about the defendant if there is a .00001% chance the DNA evidence is wrong ....."


    To that I ask, "What about the 99.9999% chance that the DNA evidence and other evidence collected in the case is correct? What about the 12 year old girl who was raped, mutilated, and murdered? What about justice for her and for her family who has to live with knowing their daughter's killer gets to live off their tax dollars for the rest of his life-- which he is more than content with doing?

    So we get to feed him, house him, allow himself to be entertained by watching television, playing recreation, etc. ... all because you are ignoring the 99.9999% chance he is guilty and are arguing the .000001% chance that the forensic evidence is wrong?

    Something tells me that if this happened to a daughter of yours, a sister, etc. you would be singing a much different tune.

    On a side note, where people are getting this idea that putting criminals found guilty of committing heinous crimes to death is barbaric, is truly beyond me. What they did was "barbaric". We don't torture them. We don't cut off their heads, throw acid in their eyes (like in Iran), cut off limbs ... etc.

    We put them to death because they have zero place being in our society for the crimes they committed and are enacting justice for their victims and their families.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    you, and you can't dispute it.

    You basically said "If one or two innocent people are executed who cares? It's no reason to stop the death penalty". And I'm saying that's a nonsensical argument.
    Those who make such an argument always think that death penalties are only things that "happen to somebody else - I'LL never be caught in that trap!" "If he got the death penalty, he probably deserved it!" Well, PROBABLY just doesn't cut it. If the death penalty is to remain, there needs to be a higher level of proof than "beyond a reasonable doubt" - let's try something more extraordinary like "beyond ALL possibility of doubt."

    "Beyond a reasonable doubt" sounds the same as "probably," in my book.

    It goes without saying that those who were innocent of the charges (and, in some cases, innocent of **ANY** crime at all involving the actual event) are mostly or perhaps ALL people who thought that the death penalty "always happens to somebody else - it will NEVER be me."
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - 28th Amendment, US Constitution?
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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    At the risk of sounding hypocritical, I am against the death penalty. HOWEVER,
    I have allowed myself one execution per decade:

    1. 80s - John Wayne Gacy
    2. 90s - Ted Bundy
    3. 20s - Timothy McVeigh

    If I were to have a change of heart... if we had executions, I think they should be televised. Fox could broadcast them live. Think of the ratings! I think the condemned prisoner convulsing after a lethal injection would be a real crowd-pleaser! (especially the "right-to-lifers")

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Those who make such an argument always think that death penalties are only things that "happen to somebody else - I'LL never be caught in that trap!" "If he got the death penalty, he probably deserved it!" Well, PROBABLY just doesn't cut it. If the death penalty is to remain, there needs to be a higher level of proof than "beyond a reasonable doubt" - let's try something more extraordinary like "beyond ALL possibility of doubt."

    "Beyond a reasonable doubt" sounds the same as "probably," in my book.
    This is very well illustrated in the movie, Twelve Angry Men. (the one with Henry Fonda)

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Again, you are not arguing for the plaintiff and are giving too much benefit of the doubt to the defendant. Why don't you try flipping the coin and arguing for the plaintiff/victim for once. See things from their side and see what you come up with.

    You keep saying "What about the defendant if there is a .00001% chance the DNA evidence is wrong ....."


    To that I ask, "What about the 99.9999% chance that the DNA evidence and other evidence collected in the case is correct? What about the 12 year old girl who was raped, mutilated, and murdered? What about justice for her and for her family who has to live with knowing their daughter's killer gets to live off their tax dollars for the rest of his life-- which he is more than content with doing?

    So we get to feed him, house him, allow himself to be entertained by watching television, playing recreation, etc. ... all because you are ignoring the 99.9999% chance he is guilty and are arguing the .000001% chance that the forensic evidence is wrong?

    Something tells me that if this happened to a daughter of yours, a sister, etc. you would be singing a much different tune.

    On a side note, where people are getting this idea that putting criminals found guilty of committing heinous crimes to death is barbaric, is truly beyond me. What they did was "barbaric". We don't torture them. We don't cut off their heads, throw acid in their eyes (like in Iran), cut off limbs ... etc.

    We put them to death because they have zero place being in our society for the crimes they committed and are enacting justice for their victims and their families.
    This is just so much scare-mongering, pointlessly rigid posturing, and self-righteous paranoia.

    We do not say to victims of crime that it’s so sad but you have to do all the work, you don’t have the right to accuse – we collectively as the state jump into the victim’s corner to prosecute the accused. We say you have a right to your accusation, and the state will attempt to convict, and the vast weight of the state comes down on the side of the victim. The victims’ rights are well represented.

    Which is why the people who set up our justice system saw fit to put in place a ton of checks on the system to keep the accused from being run roughshod over. Why we have a presumption of innocence. Why we have juries and appeals, why we have mandatory counsel for the accused.

    You don’t get to take someone’s rights away because they have been accused of a crime. Sometimes the accused is guilty, sometimes not, sometimes the accuser is wrong, sometimes not – that is the purpose of trial and you don’t get to rush to your punitive short sighted judgment unless there is a conviction – and even then it seems that you don’t care if some innocent people get executed along the way so long as you get to feel smug about yourself. Yeah – real tough guy there.

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    Re: Death penality in American's states

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    race and sexual orientation???

    why are you bringing this up?
    Ask that question to a gay Black guy in Montana whose case has been appealed up to the Judge Richard Cebull court...or those judges in Texas who instruct their jury selectors to make their juries as White as possible when trying minorities.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - 28th Amendment, US Constitution?
    "But, hey, who cares about women and their rights when the religious liberty of a nationwide chain of arts and crafts stores is at stake?" - Daily Kos, 30 June 2014
    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

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