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  1. #1
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    'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Has there ever been any discussions or objections to the Atlanta Braves 'Tomahawk Chop'?


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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Yes, there has been discussion. No, it's not PC at all.

    Everyone except Braves fans knows it's racist, but then the very name of the team is racist. I think they got rid of the little Indian with the nose as big as the rest of his head as their mascot, but still.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Also, Atlanta may be relatively cosmopolitan, but it IS in Georgia, which is the state responsible (with the help of the federal government of the time) for one of the worst genocides in US history, if not THE worst: the Trail of Tears. They wanted the land the Cherokees (and related tribes) were on for white people to use, see.

    The fact that the team is called the Braves and they still use the Tomahawk Chop shows that not only racism, but deeply clueless, shameless racism, is alive and well in Georgia.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  4. #4

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Is someone offended? Have they spoken of how they're offended?

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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Is someone offended? Have they spoken of how they're offended?
    They have. Repeatedly. Their pleas have fallen on deaf ears.

    I'm offended by the TC for an unrelated reason: it's doing hostile magic against the opposing team. It's not a cheer, exactly: it's intended to disconcert the opposing team so they don't play as well. This is deeply unsportsmanlike IMO.

    But no one listens to me about sports, or there would be no Ultimate Fighting, and no boxing either.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  6. #6

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    …not THE worst: the Trail of Tears…
    Are you sure it was the worst?

    Not when you compare it to~

    The Troubles

    The Holocaust

    the Diaspora

    The Intervention

    The Dispossessed

    The Sons of Liberty

    The Stolen Ones

    The Lost Generation

    and all those other campaigns

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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    ^Criostoir is offended...

    And yet...

    He comes from Hoboken -- which MOST of the REST of the country finds offensive...

    Seriously though...

    Its just a way to get the crowds riled up...

    I sincerely doubt anyone is thinking of the "trail of tears"...

    And the only scalping that is going on -- happened BEFORE the game...

    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

  8. #8

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    They have. Repeatedly. Their pleas have fallen on deaf ears.…
    I'm in another continent with tragedies of our own. Is there a Wiki link to their tears and their pleas which have fallen on deaf ears?

  9. #9

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    …Its just a way to get the crowds riled up... …
    I actually am slightly offended by whiteys doing the haka

  10. #10
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Are you sure it was the worst?

    Not when you compare it to~

    The Troubles

    The Holocaust

    the Diaspora

    The Intervention

    The Dispossessed

    The Sons of Liberty

    The Stolen Ones

    The Lost Generation

    and all those other campaigns
    Showing your ignorance yet again I see. Given you're an Aussie and are clueless about Native American history, you might want to refrain from commenting. Why don't you start another thread on the Jews running Hollywood / the media? I haven't seen you mention them for at least 2 weeks now.

  11. #11
    I can't breathe. Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Are you sure it was the worst?

    Not when you compare it to~

    The Troubles

    The Holocaust

    the Diaspora

    The Intervention

    The Dispossessed

    The Sons of Liberty

    The Stolen Ones

    The Lost Generation

    and all those other campaigns
    List the ones that happened in the US, OK? That's why I said "in US history." I know your country has committed worse genocides, and other countries have a lot to answer for, but the Trail of Tears kinda tops the list over here.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  12. #12
    johaninsc
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    I opened the thread


    ...might as well post





    Go Braves!

    edit: Hostile magic ?...never heard it put that way before

  13. #13

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    …your country has committed worse genocides…
    Quote Originally Posted by Enduster View Post
    … you're an Aussie and are clueless about Native American history…
    And we're all clueless about the numbers who have died. And how the much greater number in your country and mine is those who were killed by the 'disease' of unfamiliar germs rather than deliberate killing.

    All the hand-wringers in my country —when they're confronted by the documentation— acknowledge that less than a few hundred were killed in that way.

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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    But pat, we're not talking about the Australian genocides. In fact even the Trail of Tears is relevant only to provide context for the racism of Georgians.

    The Tomahawk Chop is racist. That's the topic here.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Three years ago in The Netherlands at a Feijenoord-Ajax match...



    (0:26) "Hamas, Hamas, Jews in the gas chamber!"


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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    It was a simple question asked out of curiosity. I saw it on Desperate Landscapes this afternoon and the cheerleaders were on it. That's all. I didn't expect WWIII.

  17. #17
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    ^Criostoir is offended...

    And yet...

    He comes from Hoboken -- which MOST of the REST of the country finds offensive...

    Seriously though...

    Its just a way to get the crowds riled up...

    I sincerely doubt anyone is thinking of the "trail of tears"...

    And the only scalping that is going on -- happened BEFORE the game...

    Before you rag on Hoboken, you should know that's where the first baseball game was ever played.

    http://www.hobokenbaseball.com/

    It's also where Frank Sinatra was born. It's about one square mile and has tons of bars and great places to eat.

    http://www.hoboken-bar.net/bars/all.php

    Hoboken is actually a very cool town.

  18. #18

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    I agree that it's creepy that over-fed whiteys are using hawk as an symbol of aggression but I guess other teams are using guns as their their symbol of aggression.

    I reckon using the simple word 'racist' as an insult doesn't cover this complexities in this cross-cultural issue.

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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    Three years ago in The Netherlands at a Feijenoord-Ajax match...

    (0:26) "Hamas, Hamas, Jews in the gas chamber!"
    Wow. I hope those people wake up one day to find themselves right in front of the most trigger-happy members of the IDF. With that same sentiment tattooed on their foreheads in Hebrew.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Before you rag on Hoboken, you should know that's where the first baseball game was ever played.

    http://www.hobokenbaseball.com/

    It's also where Frank Sinatra was born. It's about one square mile and has tons of bars and great places to eat.

    http://www.hoboken-bar.net/bars/all.php

    Hoboken is actually a very cool town.
    You know, jackoroe, it's not often you and I agree, but you're right on here!
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  20. #20

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Isn't sport used to sap the aggression of the proletariat so they don't bash up the gangs in the next street?

  21. #21
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    ^^I'm sorry...

    I DID DO the ROTFLMAO thingy though...

    I have been to NJ WAY TOO MANY times (usually North Brunswick, Newark) -- but have NEVER been to Hoboken...

    And, quite honestly, as HORRIBLE as the towns were -- they had AWESOME deli's!!!

    My apologies...





    p.s. and QUITE HONESTLY, criostoir was picking on MY town a LITTLE bit!!!

    p.p.s my partner is 1/4 Injun -- and he can "chop" BETTER than ANYONE...
    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

  22. #22
    johaninsc
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    ... over-fed whiteys ...
    Pat, would you please not use that word..it's racist and offensive

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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    Wow. I hope those people wake up one day to find themselves right in front of the most trigger-happy members of the IDF. With that same sentiment tattooed on their foreheads in Hebrew.
    IDF wouldn't win from them in any place the supporters were likely to go.

    In this context "Jews" doesn't necessarily mean Hebrews, but inhabitants of Amsterdam, notably the other team (Ajax) and its supporters.

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Isn't sport used to sap the aggression of the proletariat so they don't bash up the gangs in the next street?



  24. #24
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    I agree that it's creepy that over-fed whiteys are using hawk as an symbol of aggression
    I didn't realize you didn't know the word. A tomahawk isn't a hawk, it's a small hatchet of a kind used by some Native American tribes. It's a war hatchet IIRC.

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    p.s. and QUITE HONESTLY, criostoir was picking on MY town a LITTLE bit!!!
    I didn't say anything bad about Atlanta, except that their team has a racist name and racist fans and is in a relatively racist state with a horrifically racist history. Do you disagree with any of that?
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    IDF wouldn't win from them in any place the supporters were likely to go.
    You don't understand. I'm hoping they go to sleep one night and wake up mysteriously transported to the most hostile border Israel has, in the middle of running toward the trigger-happy and heavily-armed IDF boys (and girls).

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    In this context "Jews" doesn't necessarily mean Hebrews, but inhabitants of Amsterdam, notably the other team (Ajax) and its supporters.
    Yeah right. Because using 'Jew' as a general-purpose insult is soooooo much better. [/sarcasm]
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  26. #26

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    ^ Hmmm… I'm reminded of the woman at the top of this picture, below, who walked among the dead. She made an oath that none shall forget this dishonour. She vowed that 'All must suffer for this injustice… All must rend their shirts and tear their hair and weep till the end of time' she said.

    'All life must stop' she said.



    In my country we have a Reconciliation Commission which pays millions of dollars per year to pay for past sins and remind everybody else in the country of those past sins.

  27. #27
    johaninsc
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    I didn't know that being an Atlanta Braves fan made me a racist

  28. #28
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    In my country we have a Reconciliation Commission which pays millions of dollars per year to pay for past sins and remind everybody of those past sins.
    In my country some teachers claim the Cherokees are a Southwestern tribe (my seventh-grade Social Studies teacher told me that). In my country such things are never spoken of in the halls of power, and any claims the indigenous people may have are honored only to the extent they don't interfere with the profits of the capitalist extractionist overlords and giant corporations.

    In my country such things are lied about and covered up for decades or longer, and when they finally come to light "it was so long ago" that nothing is done.

    It's not a proud aspect of my country.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by johaninsc View Post
    I didn't know that being an Atlanta Braves fan made me a racist
    Not if you don't do the chop it doesn't. If you do, it does.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    You don't understand. I'm hoping they go to sleep one night and wake up mysteriously transported to the most hostile border Israel has, in the middle of running toward the trigger-happy and heavily-armed IDF boys (and girls).
    I don't think most people understand Dutch there.
    Also, the IDF is much too busy shooting Palestinian boys who are stupid enough to throw rocks at them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    Yeah right. Because using 'Jew' as a general-purpose insult is soooooo much better. [/sarcasm]
    You have to realize we have a rather troubled history with our Jewish minority that makes the difference significant.

  31. #31

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    In my country some teachers claim the Cherokees are a Southwestern tribe (my seventh-grade Social Studies teacher told me that....
    one of my favourite conversations at dinner parties is when we sit around and remember the stupid things, misinformation and lies that our teachers taught us at government schools

  32. #32

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    I think these controversies are ridiculous. I don't hear Irish Americans complaining about the Celtics or the Fighting Irish, and think that the Stanford Cardinal (to replace Indians) is a pretty stupid name to give a team, as stupid as the Harvard Crimson, on which it was modelled.
    Braves = Indians = heroic brave warrior. Sounds good to me.

  33. #33

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by LatimerRd View Post
    … I don't hear Irish Americans complaining about the Celtics or the Fighting Irish….
    why is that? Are those two teams winning this year?

  34. #34
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by johaninsc View Post
    I didn't know that being an Atlanta Braves fan made me a racist
    I didn't know just being in Georgia made me a catalyst to racism.

    Perhaps I should burn my "A" hat in protest? After all, it is a baseball cap, and as stated, the team is inherently racist.
    "As anarchism rears its face,

    They are answered by an iron fist..."

  35. #35
    AshyPhoenix
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Why the fuck does everything have to be all-PC, all the time these days?

  36. #36
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    I don't think most people understand Dutch there.
    That's why I said "in Hebrew."

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    You have to realize we have a rather troubled history with our Jewish minority that makes the difference significant.
    Yes, that makes it worse. Just as Georgia's history with the Trail of Tears means they should be doubly sensitive about anti-Native-American racism.

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    one of my favourite conversations at dinner parties is when we sit around and remember the stupid things, misinformation and lies that our teachers taught us at government schools
    In addition to the "Cherokees are a Southwestern tribe" thing (yeah, and they speak an Algonquian language, which should have been my first clue), I was taught that the English word 'babble' comes from the 'Babel' in the Bible (say that 10 times fast), that water goes down the drain the opposite way below the equator, and that it's bad English to split an infinitive.

    All that is nonsense, bullshit, or bullshit nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by LatimerRd View Post
    I think these controversies are ridiculous. I don't hear Irish Americans complaining about the Celtics or the Fighting Irish,
    Gee, do you suppose it could be because the Irish aren't particularly oppressed in America now? The NINA signs were a long time ago.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  37. #37
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by AshyPhoenix View Post
    Why the fuck does everything have to be all-PC, all the time these days?
    The OP asked WHETHER it was PC. It isn't. Not whether it SHOULD be or NEEDS to be.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    I didn't say anything bad about Atlanta, except that their team has a racist name and racist fans and is in a relatively racist state with a horrifically racist history. Do you disagree with any of that?
    IF I thought you were serious...

    I would take this SERIOUSLY!!!

    But -- I'd rather just disagree and laugh...




    p.s. pecan pie or peach cobbler anyone???
    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

  39. #39
    Hard-up1
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    I'll take a peach fried pie, please.

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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    ^well, aren't YOU brave...

    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

  41. #41
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    IF I thought you were serious...
    Well, do you disagree that Georgia is the second most racist state, after (of course) Arizona?
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  42. #42
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    Well, do you disagree that Georgia is the second most racist state, after (of course) Arizona?
    Really? Worse than Mississippi and Alabama?

  43. #43
    johaninsc
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoufOfKhaos View Post
    I didn't know just being in Georgia made me a catalyst to racism.

    Perhaps I should burn my "A" hat in protest? After all, it is a baseball cap, and as stated, the team is inherently racist.
    Send that lovely hat to Johan..he'll put it on the A-Braves pride shelf..even give it the place of honor..front and center



    then again, maybe I need to run and hide...I'm your neighbor in South Carolina...they'll be coming after us next

    ..with torches and pitch forks

    ---------------------------------

    seriously though..sometimes Political Correctness can go too far

    ..to the point of being rediculous

  44. #44
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    I love it when white peeps whine about the world being too PC and it somehow denying them of their right to be a racist asshole without being called out on it. Too funny!

  45. #45
    johaninsc
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduster View Post
    I love it when white peeps whine about the world being too PC and it somehow denying them of their right to be a racist asshole without being called out on it. Too funny!
    was that written in response to my previous post in this thread..?

    if so, it's going to take more than a 3rd rate troll to get me to stir from my comfy place

  46. #46
    I can't breathe. Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduster View Post
    Really? Worse than Mississippi and Alabama?
    No, I was mixed up. It was Alabama that has the Arizona-like racist law, not Georgia. My apologies to Georgians for unfairly maligning your state (and for mixing it up with ALABAMA, which is an o-my-ghods-did-I-do-that-*facepalm* embarrassing mistake). Sorry about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduster View Post
    I love it when white peeps whine about the world being too PC and it somehow denying them of their right to be a racist asshole without being called out on it. Too funny!
    Yep. Whenever someone says they "aren't PC" or "refuse to be PC," what they're really talking about is their right to promote bigotry (which right they have) without being called on it (which right they do NOT have). Just as 'social conservative' is political code for "anti-gay bigot."

    Gotta learn these code words.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  47. #47

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    ^ I realise you see things which others don't and I know you don't like local tragedies being compared to outsiders' tragedies. But the chopping motion of the Atlanta tomahawk is mild and inexplicit compared to these people cutting throats~


  48. #48
    The old familiar sting blackbeltninja's Avatar
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    ^Careful, now, you're talking of foreign sports played by filthy foreigners who don't have History on their side.

    On topic:

    A genuine question - how is calling your team The Braves racist, exactly? Far as I can gather - as has been mentioned above - the Brave was the warrior part of life in the tribe; much like the Impi were in the Zulu culture, and in both cases it's hardly a derogatory term.

    I really don't have the cultural background to see how that is racist, so perhaps you could distil it down to something simple for us? The Egyptian national football team is nicknamed The Pharaohs - is that also racist, and if not, why not?

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  49. #49
    Canuck rhymes with f*ck
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    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    But the chopping motion of the Atlanta tomahawk is mild and inexplicit compared to these people cutting throats~
    Just so you know, what I saw on 'Desperate Landscapes' (with the actual cheerleaders) was accompanied by an 'Indian war chant'. I'm guessing at the 'war' thing, but since they were chopping the air with their imaginary axes, I'm pretty sure they weren't inviting the other team to tea.

    It was beyond stereotypical and I couldn't believe they were actually doing it.

  50. #50

    Re: 'Tomahawk Chop' - How PC is it?

    ^ did the 'Indian war chant' have words?

    Wiki say this 'During the Braves' rise to prominence in the early 1990s, their long-standing ethnic nickname came under much closer scrutiny, even being protested in Minneapolis when the Braves visited the Twins for Game 1 of the 1991 World Series. The team was especially criticized for selling plastic and foam tomahawks, encouraging the so-called tomahawk chop and the accompanying war cry emitted by the fans. The war cry and tomahawk chop are similar, if not identical, to what Florida State University fans do at their games. Initially, the war chant music was played by the Braves' organist, but in recent years, a recording of the FSU band has been used instead. This tradition can be traced back to the arrival of former Seminole Deion Sanders, who also played for the NFL's Atlanta Falcons at the time ...

    this war chant has words and translation~

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