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Thread: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

      
   
  1. #51
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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    Yeah, because that Laissez-faire everyone gets to market whatever kind of financial products they want model worked so well for our system 3 years ago. The Republicans propensity for collective amnesia is truly epic.

    The housing bubble was caused in part by the government convincing banks to make loans to people who could not afford to pay them back. The government thinks everyone should own a house. Everyone who has the ability to actually repay a loan should have an opportunity to own a home.

    Ironically, and I'm sure you're unaware of it, under a laissez-faire (sometimes called the free market) system, banks would never have made these bad loans because the government would not have cajoled banks into making them and certainly wouldn't have guaranteed them.

    A truly free market would have prevented any of this from ever happening.

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    The housing bubble was caused in part by the government convincing banks to make loans to people who could not afford to pay them back. The government thinks everyone should own a house. Everyone who has the ability to actually repay a loan should have an opportunity to own a home.

    Ironically, and I'm sure you're unaware of it, under a laissez-faire (sometimes called the free market) system, banks would never have made these bad loans because the government would not have cajoled banks into making them and certainly wouldn't have guaranteed them.

    A truly free market would have prevented any of this from ever happening.
    Nonsense. The banks were eager to make predatory loans because the interest was making them tons of money. They were not reluctant.

    And the most serious problem that caused the financial collapse was not the loans themselves but the way they were allowed to be leveraged and marketed. Some additional oversight was sorely needed to prevent the pure deceit that the large investment houses knowingly engaged in.

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    Nonsense. The banks were eager to make predatory loans because the interest was making them tons of money. They were not reluctant.

    And the most serious problem that caused the financial collapse was not the loans themselves but the way they were allowed to be leveraged and marketed. Some additional oversight was sorely needed to prevent the pure deceit that the large investment houses knowingly engaged in.
    In a free market, banks don't make loans to people based on stated income. They can only make money on loans if people repay them. Therefore, they will require that you have a job, meet lending guidelines and have a sufficient down payment to protect their interests.

    Government regulation distorts the marketplace.

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    We desperately need yet another government agency like I need a dose of the clap.
    You write as though all government agencies are the same -- but they're not. There's a vast difference between an agency that tuns around telling people what to do and one that is there to protect people.

    This one is to protect people. It's sad that we need it, but until the financial sector climbs back out of warlord ethics, we do.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Tribe is also ideologically motivated. Fact is, there is a huge amount of disagreement over it. They all center on whether the President has the right to say that a legislative body isn't actually in session, when the body itself says that it is. It will end up at the supreme court.

    MSNBC
    Making an accusation of ideological motivation stick against Tribe is tough. He calls things the way they read, whether he likes it or not.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Now you allude to the Keynesian model which has been discredited everywhere but here for some reason. Over $5 Trillion in new debt and we still have 8 1/2% unemployment and GDP of something less than 2%. The only inconvenient fact is that Obama's economic policies are a complete disaster. And please, spare me the "It would have been much worse" tripe. You cannot quantify it, so it is little more than mental masturbation.
    You're being deceptive here: "Over $5 Trillion in new debt and we still have 8 1/2% unemployment and GDP of something less than 2%."

    That $5 trn is not all related to Keynsian notions -- only about .8 trn is... and arguably only about .3 trn.

    BTW, quite a few economists have in fact "quantified it".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    A truly free market would have prevented any of this from ever happening.
    No -- a free market is only a requisite; it is not sufficient. A free market which operates fairly and justly rests on it being operated by men of character in high positions.

    That the banking sector lacks men of character is amply demonstrated by the bestowing of ample bonuses to people who had screwed us all.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    In a free market, banks don't make loans to people based on stated income. They can only make money on loans if people repay them. Therefore, they will require that you have a job, meet lending guidelines and have a sufficient down payment to protect their interests.

    Government regulation distorts the marketplace.
    This is oversimplified.

    The bankers made bad loans deliberately, not because the government coerced them, but because they figured out a way to pass the risk on to others at a profit. They did as Soviet contractors did in apartment buildings: fill the structure with crap, and cover it with the appearance of high quality, and move on before disaster strikes.

    Yes, government regulation distorts the marketplace. But it only does so for the same reason it is often needed: humans tend to be unscrupulous. The old adage about power corrupting does not apply solely to government -- if it did, the Roman Catholic Church would be the epitome of humble, sacrificial service such that the world would be in awe.

    The answer isn't really government regulation, it's to correct the problem of "too big to fail" -- the banks that hosed us all should have been broken into pieces sufficiently small that their failure wouldn't even make a ripple in the national economy. Let the pieces compete, and hope those with integrity come out on top. But acting to ensconce the deceptive in their places is damaging to the Republic.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Making an accusation of ideological motivation stick against Tribe is tough. He calls things the way they read, whether he likes it or not.
    Not considering his support for and previous relationship with Obama. Its one of those nice little conflict of interest arguments that call into question his judgement.

    But, like I said, there's a pretty large disagreement within the constitutional scholar community about it, so saying that one is right and the other isn't (for both sides) isn't a fair assessment.

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Not considering his support for and previous relationship with Obama. Its one of those nice little conflict of interest arguments that call into question his judgement.

    But, like I said, there's a pretty large disagreement within the constitutional scholar community about it, so saying that one is right and the other isn't (for both sides) isn't a fair assessment.
    Have you got a source that actually lays out arguments from precedent? Tribe shows that the Senate itself as an institution basically agrees with Obama's position, and that will heavily weigh any decision.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president."

    -- Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), in an interview with the National Journal, describing his goal in retaking the Senate.



  12. #62
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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_me View Post
    "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president."

    -- Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), in an interview with the National Journal, describing his goal in retaking the Senate.
    "If President Obama does a Clintonian backflip, if heís willing to meet us halfway on some of the biggest issues, itís not inappropriate for us to do business with him."

    -- Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), in the exact same interview

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    ^ killer

    Caught in a white lie

    Details details

  14. #64

    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    The problem is they aren't facts. Bush was a profligate spender, make no mistake. He took the debt from about $5 trillion to a scad over $10 trillion (not $13 as you claim) in eight years. But Obama has gone from the $10 trillion number to over $15 trillion and $16 trillion is but a few months away. What's truly horrible is he's done this in less than three years!

    Obama is spending $5 billion every single day that we do not have. He's borrowing it from the Chinese. By comparison Bush seems downright thrifty when he was spending $1.66 billion per day that we didn't have. Obama is Bush times three!

    http://startthinkingright.wordpress....ponsible-ever/

    Now you allude to the Keynesian model which has been discredited everywhere but here for some reason. Over $5 Trillion in new debt and we still have 8 1/2% unemployment and GDP of something less than 2%. The only inconvenient fact is that Obama's economic policies are a complete disaster. And please, spare me the "It would have been much worse" tripe. You cannot quantify it, so it is little more than mental masturbation.

    Now Barry has claimed that raising the debt ceiling is "unpatriotic" then he demands it be done. He promised to close Gitmo on entering his new office. Not only is it still open, but he's now allowed to send Americans with whom he disagrees with there. No trials, no bail, no charges. He complained about Bush's use of the signing statement, yet uses it himself. He's allowed his Department of Justice to furnish weapons to Mexican drug gangs, at taxpayer expense. These weapons kill scores of Mexicans and one US Border agent, Brian Terry. The attorney general hasn't only not been fired for being either wittingly or not an incompetent gun running criminal, Barry supports this idiot whole heartedly! In fact, no one has been fired or charged for this blatantly illegal conduct. Is that not even a little troubling?

    So, please help me out. Why should I not hold someone who behaves in such a reckless, irresponsible and unconstitutional manner in contempt? Why, when I'm told that my rights as an American citizen are contingent on the good will of any president, that I should not call such a despot a Fucktard?
    Keynesian economics has only been discredited in right-wing lala land. You know, that place where facts don't matter, only unbridled rage and magical thinking matter. You know, that place where people used to ride dinosaurs, slashing taxes and going to war brings the deficit down, and giving huge tax breaks to the 1% leads to robust economic growth.

    As far as the deficit, don't get so hysterical about it. Just understand it. Here's a good start:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/op...ands-debt.html

  15. #65

    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    "If President Obama does a Clintonian backflip, if heís willing to meet us halfway on some of the biggest issues, itís not inappropriate for us to do business with him."

    -- Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), in the exact same interview
    But is McConnell and the Tea Party republicans meeting him half way? No.

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    But is McConnell and the Tea Party republicans meeting him half way? No.
    Absolutely! In the same way the Indigenous Americans "met Custer half way."

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    The recess appointment is a ridiculous argument. The congress was in session for 35 seconds.


    As far as Republicans and compromise? Some of the more logical and moderate voices are still saying that the right should be compromising their way to solutions for America. They will not and are not and I hope it earns them less of a seat at the table in the next house.
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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Have you got a source that actually lays out arguments from precedent? Tribe shows that the Senate itself as an institution basically agrees with Obama's position, and that will heavily weigh any decision.
    Regardless of what the senate as an institution believes, the issue lies in the fact that the President believes that he has the authority to determine whether or not part of the legislature is in session, when that body itself has determined that it is. The constitutionality of the recess appointment itself is not in question; what IS is whether he had any right to make such an appointment considering that the Senate (which has the right to set its own rules) had not adjourned. He is forced to, whether he likes it or not, abide by the determination of the senate on their own status. He did not do so.

    (ridiculous as the senate's position is, the separation of powers is very clear here)

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    The housing bubble was caused in part by the government convincing banks to make loans to people who could not afford to pay them back. The government thinks everyone should own a house

    Ironically, and I'm sure you're unaware of it, under a laissez-faire (sometimes called the free market) system, banks would never have made these bad loans because the government would not have cajoled banks into making them and certainly wouldn't have guaranteed them.

    A truly free market would have prevented any of this from ever happening.
    And true, I have to "call the Democrats out" on that mindset, weren't Christopher Dodd and Barney Frank the strongest proponents of the "find a way to loan money to almost anybody" plan? (I'm relying on a-few-years-old memory here...)

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    Nonsense. The banks were eager to make predatory loans because the interest was making them tons of money. They were not reluctant.

    And the most serious problem that caused the financial collapse was not the loans themselves but the way they were allowed to be leveraged and marketed. Some additional oversight was sorely needed to prevent the pure deceit that the large investment houses knowingly engaged in.
    Without the Government strongly encouraging (demanding?) that banks make these loans - which, in the end, ended up bringing in millions of "NINJA loans," I don't think it was on the banks' radar that they could profit from bogus/bad loans. However, after being told they should make those weak loans, and then finding out that they could STILL stealthily sell worthless paper to bankers and investors at levels far above the original lending banks, they went for broke, so to speak. I don't think that the government ever encouraged them to go as far as the "NINJA loans (officially known, in the industry as SISA loans - Stated Income, Stated Assets). The lower banks were pleasantly surprised when they realized they could sell even THAT shit to the investors.

    NINJA = No Income, No Job, (no) Assets

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Income_No_Asset

    But the people who are comparing Bush and Obama deficits, I find it interesting how the pro-Bush people attribute the $700somethingbillion first bailout to Obama, and how the pro-Obama people attribute it to Bush. (The truth is that it was BUSH who signed it.)
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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Regardless of what the senate as an institution believes, the issue lies in the fact that the President believes that he has the authority to determine whether or not part of the legislature is in session, when that body itself has determined that it is. The constitutionality of the recess appointment itself is not in question; what IS is whether he had any right to make such an appointment considering that the Senate (which has the right to set its own rules) had not adjourned. He is forced to, whether he likes it or not, abide by the determination of the senate on their own status. He did not do so.

    (ridiculous as the senate's position is, the separation of powers is very clear here)
    You're arguing that the letter of the law takes precedent over the spirit of the law. When applied to the Constitution, that tends to turn the document into a suicide pact; it is a view the courts have frowned on. The Constitution is a document written by reasonable men for reasonable men, and has to be interpreted reasonably when there are conflicts emerging from within.

    And in determining such things, the courts indeed look at precedent, especially precedent from times when those involved weren't deciding things according to ideological partisan agendas -- those being presumed to be more reasonable. So it's a pretty sound guess that if this goes to the courts, they're going to decide according to what the Senate itself has said for a very long time.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You're arguing that the letter of the law takes precedent over the spirit of the law. When applied to the Constitution, that tends to turn the document into a suicide pact; it is a view the courts have frowned on. The Constitution is a document written by reasonable men for reasonable men, and has to be interpreted reasonably when there are conflicts emerging from within.

    And in determining such things, the courts indeed look at precedent, especially precedent from times when those involved weren't deciding things according to ideological partisan agendas -- those being presumed to be more reasonable. So it's a pretty sound guess that if this goes to the courts, they're going to decide according to what the Senate itself has said for a very long time.

    ...Which is that the Senate determines its rules, and the President has no authority to decide for himself anything having to do with them. In other words, the default position going into any case is going to be that the Senate was in session, and the President is going to have to prove otherwise. (which is an impossible task, given that Pro Forma sessions are part of the Senate rules)

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    ...Which is that the Senate determines its rules, and the President has no authority to decide for himself anything having to do with them. In other words, the default position going into any case is going to be that the Senate was in session, and the President is going to have to prove otherwise. (which is an impossible task, given that Pro Forma sessions are part of the Senate rules)
    You didn't read Tribe's efforts, did you?

    Precedent is that when the Senate is not in town doing business, it's in recess -- that precedent having been set down by the Senate over generations.

    The recent invention by Democrats of pro-forma sessions in order to try to dodge the provisions of the Constitution, and its gleeful adoption by Republicans whose goal isn't to govern but to make governing as difficult as possible, is a blip on the radar.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  23. #73
    loki81
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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    I assume it will be appealed, but it sounds like this was officially declared unconstitutional today.

    The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit on Friday ruled that recess appointments made by President Obama to the National Labor Relations Board were unconstitutional.
    http://www.politico.com/politico44/2....html?hp=l1_b1

    a NYT article suggested this may invalidate everything done by the appointees.

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You didn't read Tribe's efforts, did you?

    Precedent is that when the Senate is not in town doing business, it's in recess -- that precedent having been set down by the Senate over generations.

    The recent invention by Democrats of pro-forma sessions in order to try to dodge the provisions of the Constitution, and its gleeful adoption by Republicans whose goal isn't to govern but to make governing as difficult as possible, is a blip on the radar.
    The courts disagree, apparently.

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    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    The Supreme Court will throw this out. Otherwise many of the recess appointoints from the past 150 years will be invalid.

  26. #76

    Re: Obama recess appoints consumer bureau chief

    From what I understand all the other recess appointments were made when the Senate was off on an extended break -- this was not the case for the Obama appointments.

    Also Obama had never brought the names up for appointment to the Senate -- the Senate had not had the opportunity to vote yea or nay.
    "Thatís the good thing about being president. I can do whatever I want.Ē Barack Obama, 2-10-14

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