Posting Guidelines

[quasar]

Below are the new Guidelines for the Fetish and Kink forum.

They have been produced following consultation with, and advice from, the Moderation Team, Mark - JUB's owner, Chad - BluMedia's lawyer and general input from members.

They are designed to provide a safe, legal and open environment in which members can discuss non-vanilla sexual activities without being judged by other members.

We have drawn your attention to the most contentious issues that have legal implications so that you are fully informed before you create a discussion.

Whilst we feel they are fair and clear, we would appreciate and value your comments in this thread.

If you wish to discuss anything privately with us, please create a thread in the Ask The Moderator forum.

Cheers guys,

Centexfarmer & Quasar

[quasar]

The following are posting Guidelines for the Fetish, Kink, and other Porn Forum. They are in addition to the main Code of Conduct.

• Negative or judgemental comments about a Fetish or Kink that’s being shared or posted here will result in your being Banned from posting in this forum for a minimum of 7-Days, up to and including a permanent Ban.
• Comments regarded as 'trolling' or baiting will be removed without discussion and will also result in a minimum 7-day forum ban.

Whilst most topics are very straight forward, there are some that require more thought in order to avoid moderator action. We aren't saying these topics can't be discussed, but we would advise that they are presented as a fantasy rather than an actual event due to the legal implications of their nature.

When creating a topic thread for discussion ask yourself the following:

Is it Legal, is it Consensual, and is it Safe?

For example:
Legal:

• In many US states and other countries it is illegal to knowingly transmit the HIV virus from one person to another.
• Incest is considered illegal in most all civilized countries, and is considered by most to be taboo.
• Taking something from someone to fulfill a Fetish is theft. ie sweaty jockstrap etc.
• Forced sex/Rape is illegal.
• Having sexual relations with someone while they are asleep, intoxicated, passed out, or incapable of giving their consent is also considered RAPE.
• Torture/Abuse against someone's will is considered assault.

Again, we strongly recommend that any threads dealing with the above topics should be discussed as a fantasy scenario - and not an actual event. As per the Code of Conduct, no mention of any characters, real or ficticious, that are under 18 will be permitted.

LEGAL NOTICE:
JUB is an open forum. If you post about an actual crime you have committed, you are posting a written confession that can be used against you. While JUB will not try and sort out what is fantasy and what is a confession of a real crime, we strongly urge our posters not to write about actual crimes they have been stupid enough to commit. JUB complies with valid requests from law enforcement agencies investigating crime.

Consensual:

• Rape is generally non-consensual and illegal.
• Having sexual relations with someone while they are asleep, intoxicated, passed out, or incapable of giving their consent is also considered RAPE.
• Taking something from someone without their consent is theft and NOT consensual.

Safe:

• We welcome any discussion if there’s a question about the safety, or concerns that a member might have about engaging in various types of Fetish; BDSM, S&M, the use of sex-toys, hygiene or “safe-sex” practices.
• Whilst we are prepared to accept barebacking as a Fetish, we do not condone indiscriminate or irresponsible barebacking practices. We have no issue with it being sensibly discussed or in a fantasy scenario.
• We do not consider 'Gifting/Bug Chasing' to be a Fetish or Kink. Any discussion about this should be in the Hot Topics or Health & Wellbeing forums.
• If you have any Health/Safety issues raised by the content of some of the thread topics created, then create your own thread for your OWN discussion rather than 'hijack' someone else's thread (because it's viewed as an unwanted disruption).
  At that point the same rules for this forum will apply in your thread, but not as a comment in another member's thread.
  

This is an Adult Forum where mature subject matter is being discussed, the Mod Team expects everyone who posts here to be responsible and to act accordingly.

So keep it Legal, keep it Consensual, Be Safe, and Have Fun Posting!

[bulge]

Nothing is said about verbal abuse. I guess verbal abuse in the explicit context of "verbal abuse" is still OK. The forum has quite some posts about it and they quite interest me.

I guess everything in context is OK, but not OK is everything out of the specific fetish context.

[bankside]

I think those look like workable guidelines and I'm pleased to see recognition that the whole pozzing/bug chasing thing is not being regarded as a fetish.

There are posters in this forum who sometimes invite open-ended discussion about a particular fetish "Do you like XXX?" or "What do you think about XXX?" That's different from a thread that says "Post your hottest story about XXX." Debating the sexiness of a kink in a thread where you're supposed to post your hottest story is clearly off-topic.

But I hope these new guidelines will still allow for free discussion between people who truly do, and truly do not, enjoy a particular kink, in select threads where that would be appropriate based on the OP. Maybe those threads could be marked somehow? Sometimes those are great discussions even between people who have very different instinctive reactions.

[AsianDream]

These seem to be mostly good guidelines – though there doesn’t seem to be much of a problem with people posting unwanted “YUK” comments.

Does not mentioning ages under 18 only apply to fantasy scenarios involving illegal acts or to all topics?

If to all topics - a lot of people will have had sexual experiences before the age of 18. So would these new guidelines mean it is OK to talk about these provided no age is mentioned?

Or does this depend on what the legal age of consent is in the location where these took place (eg: for both sexes the age of consent is 14 in Macau – but was 21 for gay sex in Hong Kong till recently).

Sometimes the broad term “Legal” is hard to define. In some countries any homosexual act is illegal – also before 2003 oral or anal sex was a crime in several US states (eg: a blow job in Alabama in 2002 would have been a crime).

Though I've no personal interest in these - there are often threads on Incest at the moment and a ban on these might be unneccesary.

Incest is in fact legal in Belgium, Brazil, China, India, Israel, Japan, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Russia, Spain and Turkey. So is perfectly legal for around half the world's population and till quite recently was legal for more people than homosexuality was.

There also seems to be no substantial genetic argument against incest and Switzerland is at the moment considering repealing its incest laws on the basis that these are obsolete and are only based on religious ideas.

In China - till the law was changed - there were rules against homosexuality but not against Incest.

On the other hand - if JUB is based in the USA - the site owners could be forced to hand over details of members who describe a crime that took place there - so to some extent these new guidelines are protecting members.

Also - as an example of a legal "quirk" - In New Zealand, publishing anything promoting or supporting urolagnia (watersports), whether in print or online, is an offense punishable by up to ten years in prison. So not a good place to site any JUB servers

[BENDERBOY]

What your not allowed to say you stole some guys jock at the gym to wack-off into,really,what if it was say 20 years ago?

[AWP82]

Those guidelines sound good to me, but I have one question...

In the topics that are to be presented as fantasy only (i.e. incest), is "calling bullshit" (lie or embellishment accusations) on people's stories considered baiting, trolling, or hijacking? I sure hope so, because most of the time, it's an unwanted disruption that ends up derailing a thread and ultimately ruining the fun of it, due to the hostile environment it creates that inhibits people from posting comfortably in general. I know people are entitled to their opinions but they don't have to be killjoys about it. That's just rude and annoying. Now that such stories are required to be (presented as) "fake", calling bullshit on them would be pointless and unnessecary since "real" ones aren't allowed, due to their legal ramifications (if I understand correctly).

Other than that, I like the new guidelines.

[AsianDream]

What your not allowed to say you stole some guys jock at the gym to wack-off into,really,what if it was say 20 years ago?

I can see the site owners dilemma here - this is a confesion of a criminal offence (theft) which is illegal in every country in the world.

So they could in theory be forced to disclose details of the member that has "conffesed" to this crime.

On the other hand - if you just borrowed a guys jock at the gym to wack-off into - and did not have the intent to "permanatly deprive" him of his property - then this is not a criminal act. So could be posted if you actually returned the property.

Though there is a case for saying that ejaculating into clothing could be construed as "Criminal Dammage". In which case - if you properly washed and disinfected the item of clothng before returning ths to it's rightfull owner - this would still be a legal act.

In which case - all "jock strap" stories should maybe include the statement

"All items of clothing refered to in this posting were returned to their rightfull owner after having been suitably cleansed and disinfected prior to such return"

[AsianDream]

Those guidelines sound good to me, but I have one question...

In the topics that are to be presented as fantasy only (i.e. incest), ..... calling bullshit on them would be pointless and unnessecary since "real" ones aren't allowed, due to their legal ramifications

While Incest isn't at all my thing - I do think these guidelines are unduly proscriptive in this respect – and as such are mostly based on religious ideas prevalent in “Anglo Saxon” cultures.

So the statement in the OP that “Incest is considered illegal in most all civilized countries” is patently false. For a lot of the world this is legal (as I posted previously)

I guess all of us should at least have the intellectual honesty to know when we are talking bullshit.

On the other hand – If the owners of JUB have been legally advised that allowing free speech on this topic is risky for them – then I do think they have no other option than to curtail discussions in this area and obey the rules (however irrational) of the government that they operate under.

[AsianDream]

BTW - if i didn'd value this site - I wouldn't waste my time in posting a response to this new policy.

Where I do think you have made a mistake is in dealing with the incest topic - and possibly you have taken a pure "Legalistic view" on other matters,

Though to be frank - in most cases - if the "Powers that be" have decided on a course of action - even when they pretend to consult "Stakeholders" (like me) the outcome is already determined in advance.

So probably anythiing I have to say is just "pissing in the wind" - you will impose rules on the rest of us - however we feel about this.

If the rules you impose on the rest of us are too bad - we can always "vote with our feet" and go to other sites

[Willie Boy]

These seem to be mostly good guidelines – though there doesn’t seem to be much of a problem with people posting unwanted “YUK” comments.

Does not mentioning ages under 18 only apply to fantasy scenarios involving illegal acts or to all topics?

As is the rule throughout the rest of JUB any talk about under 18 in a sexual context is forbidden. As the Kink forum is sexual in nature that is pretty self explanatory.

Those guidelines sound good to me, but I have one question...

In the topics that are to be presented as fantasy only (i.e. incest), is "calling bullshit" (lie or embellishment accusations) on people's stories considered baiting, trolling, or hijacking?

If they are presented as fantasies wouldn't "calling bullshit" be a bit...... for lack of a better word, stupid? The story is presented as "not real" and someone would be claiming it to be "not real". What would be the point, beyond disrupting the thread?

[CTF]

We've also included a set of thread-prefixes which are already in place:

Thread prefixes have been created that can be added when creating your discussion thread in order for the members reading your thread to know what type of input that your looking for or encouraging (and to help us better moderate the discussion within that thread):

• On-Topic
• Need Advice
• Health/Safety
• Fetish
• Kink
• Porn
• Fantasy
• Oh-Yeah!
• Scat!

The thread prefixes work pretty good in identifying up front the type of discussion that the OP wants to encourage, and to help us have an idea of how the OP expects it to be moderated.

[AsianDream]

As is the rule throughout the rest of JUB any talk about under 18 in a sexual context is forbidden. As the Kink forum is sexual in nature that is pretty self explanatory.

Does this rule on not mentioning experiences under the age of 18 still apply where this was perfectly legal in the jurisdiction where this took place?

In my case I have talked about events which took place when I was under 18 – however I was above the legal age of consent in the place where this occurred. So this was a totally legal activity.

On the issue of your proposed ban of any mention of Incest after 27 June. Though this does not effect me personally – this is not justified – and is a real constraint on freedom of speech on this site,

As you have invited comments on your proposed changed rules – this is one where you are clearly pandering to those who have religious based views

[CTF]

Those guidelines sound good to me, but I have one question...

In the topics that are to be presented as fantasy only (i.e. incest), is "calling bullshit" (lie or embellishment accusations) on people's stories considered baiting, trolling, or hijacking?

The "yuk, ewwws, that's gross, that's bullshit, etc." or any other comments that makes a judgement against any other fetish or kink, and therefore disrupts the flow of the discussion, will result in a 7-Day Forum ban, and we don't care who makes it. Period of Story.

We expect those comments to be post reported immediately so that we can take immediate action.

[AsianDream]

The "yuk, ewwws, that's gross, that's bullshit, etc." or any other comments that makes a judgement against any other fetish or kink, and therefore disrupts the flow of the discussion, will result in a 7-Day Forum ban, and we don't care who makes it. Period of Story.|

Yet as part of your same new rules your are proposing to ban any mention of incest and various other things?

OK - so you have the power to do whatever you feel like doing on this site - the rest of us can only vote with our feet (by leaving this site).

To my way of thinking - part of these "New Guidelines" are something you should be ashamed of - and make this site a subject of ridicule.

Personally - however much I dissaprove of these changes - while being wrong - they do not effect me personally.

So however much I think these reflect shame on you - I'm sure nothing I can say will stop you enforceing your new rules.

[CTF]

Does this rule on not mentioning experiences under the age of 18 still apply where this was perfectly legal in the jurisdiction where this took place?

The idea is how the discussion is framed (i.e. when I was 16...) is a far different from (I'll really like to [insert desire] a 16 year old).

Topic discussions that sexualize individuals u/a the of 18 won't be allowed, along with their images, depictions. Nothing has changed in this forum in that regard, as it's the rule throughout of the whole of JUB.

In my case I have talked about events which took place when I was under 18 – however I was above the legal age of consent in the place where this occurred. So this was a totally legal activity.

Yes, and because you talked about something that happened, not something you're currently doing, or have the desire to do.

The age of consent here on JUB is 18, it doesn't matter what the legal age of consent is in the country that you're posting from.

On the issue of your proposed ban of any mention of Incest after 27 June. Though this does not effect me personally – this is not justified – and is a real constraint on freedom of speech on this site,

As you have invited comments on your proposed changed rules – this is one where you are clearly pandering to those who have religious based views

There's no pandering here.

There's a difference between sexual fantasy, and breaking the law. This is where we're making the distinction, and expect members to adhere to the guidelines as presented.

The Mod Team has been in discussion for a couple of months now on how to best set some boundaries and parameters to assist all of us in Moderating this forum, and we've received legal counsel on where the bright line is.

We've presented that line here in the proposed posting guidelines.

We are in NO WAY attempting to restrict discussion, but rather attempting to make aware of how we expect certain discussions to be presented, and how they can expect to be moderated in the future.

If you're not sure the best way to approach a topic that you would like to discuss, you're always free to address the whole of the Mod Team in the Ask the Moderators forum. We'll be more than happy to help walk you through it.

[quasar]

Yet as part of your same new rules your are proposing to ban any mention of incest and various other things?...

There is no ban on the topic of incest

What we are saying is that in some jurisdictions it is a crime, and that if you want to write about something that happened to you in real life, you need to be aware that you may be opening yourself up for legal action by posting details of a crime.

We are not going to question whether it was fact or fiction.

This applies to incest, rape/forced sex, molestation, theft, and torture/physical abuse.

You can write about all of the above - we are simply pointing out that there may be legal implications if what you're discussing ACTUALLY happened.

[AWP82]

If they are presented as fantasies wouldn't "calling bullshit" be a bit...... for lack of a better word, stupid? The story is presented as "not real" and someone would be claiming it to be "not real". What would be the point, beyond disrupting the thread?

Exactly. That was part of my point.

The "yuk, ewwws, that's gross, that's bullshit, etc." or any other comments that makes a judgement against any other fetish or kink, and therefore disrupts the flow of the discussion, will result in a 7-Day Forum ban, and we don't care who makes it. Period of Story.

We expect those comments to be post reported immediately so that we can take immediate action.

Gotcha. Thanks.

[CTF]

Yet as part of your same new rules your are proposing to ban any mention of incest and various other things?

I'd advise you to go back and read the proposed guidelines again.

OK - so you have the power to do whatever you feel like doing on this site - the rest of us can only vote with our feet (by leaving this site).

Members come and go every day, and this forum is the third most popular on the whole of JUB, but yet it's generally the least moderated.

We've recognized for awhile now that members have been leaving this forum because trolls have been coming in here and disrupting the flow of threads, but members (unlike in other forums) haven't been post reporting anything.

The Moderators Consulted with each other back here, along with the owner's of JUB to figure out a way to best fascilitate open discussion in this forum, and then to present some guidelines on how we can all go about doing that, moderators and members alike.

To my way of thinking - part of these "New Guidelines" are something you should be ashamed of - and make this site a subject of ridicule.

Visit a lot of Fetish, and Kink sites do you? Because I have, and everyone one them have some form of guidelines, while JUB had absolutely NONE.

We've incorporated what we feel are standard guidelines for these types of discussions.

Personally - however much I dissaprove of these changes - while being wrong - they do not effect me personally.

Well then thank you for taking the time to contribute to this discussion.

So however much I think these reflect shame on you - I'm sure nothing I can say will stop you enforceing your new rules.

And those are the types of "judgement" posts that will earn members a 7-Day Forum ban after June 27th.

After that then they can take it up with the Mod Team either via Post Report, Ask the Moderators Forum, and/or PM.

[CTF]

There is no ban on the topic of incest

What we are saying is that in some jurisdictions it is a crime, and that if you want to write about something that happened to you in real life, you need to be aware that you may be opening yourself up for legal action by posting details of a crime.

We are not going to question whether it was fact or fiction.

This applies to incest, rape/forced sex, molestation, theft, and torture/physical abuse.

You can write about all of the above - we are simply pointing out that there may be legal implications if what you're discussing ACTUALLY happened.

B I N G O!

[AsianDream]

There's no pandering here.

There's a difference between sexual fantasy, and breaking the law. This is where we're making the distinction, and expect members to adhere to the guidelines as presented.

The Mod Team has been in discussion for a couple of months now on how to best set some boundaries and parameters to assist all of us in Moderating this forum, and we've received legal counsel on where the bright line is.

We've presented that line here in the proposed posting guidelines.

We are in NO WAY attempting to restrict discussion, but rather attempting to make aware of how we expect certain discussions to be presented, and how they can expect to be moderated in the future.

In some areas you are not right on this - an exampe being Incest - that is legal for half the world's population. also in terms of legal age of consent (which was 14 in my case).

In many countiies just being gay is breaking the law.

You have the power on this site to impose rules. I'm rather used to this sort of arbirary power being abused in real life - it's an everyday fact of life in China - we don't have much option other than to obey the authorities.

I don't have a probelm to adhere to your guidelines as presented. But I do think shame on you for imposing these rules on others.

To my way of thinking - the "powers that be" on this site are bringing it into disripute.

I've been here for 4 years - you're new guidlines do look to me as being very flawed - and maybe you will regret these later.

[larryng]

Can someone explain to me what "trolling" or "baiting " means?

I've only heard someone being called a "troll" once here. The word "troll" in that context meant the poster was a total lair.

[Corny]

In some areas you are not right on this - an exampe being Incest - that is legal for half the world's population. also in terms of legal age of consent (which was 14 in my case).

In many countiies just being gay is breaking the law.

Although JUB is international, it is based in the United States, and the owners are US citizens. Thus US law applies. Which means that we stick to US law in those guidelines. If being gay is illegal in your country, you can still write about your gay experiences here, as it is legal in the US. However, this could be used against you in your country. And vice versa - if writing about your sexual experiences with 14 year olds is ok in your country due to your local age of consent laws, that doesn't make it OK in the US and JUB will not allow it.

[quasar]

Nothing is said about verbal abuse. I guess verbal abuse in the explicit context of "verbal abuse" is still OK. The forum has quite some posts about it and they quite interest me.

I guess everything in context is OK, but not OK is everything out of the specific fetish context.

The four or five items that we've singled out are there purely to highlight the potential legal implications of some of the most common topics here. Obviously, I guess there is a potential legal issue with verbal abuse being perceived as harrassment etc. I think the mantra of 'Is it Legal, Consensual, Safe?' is a great check to help you decide how you may want to approach certain topics.

I think those look like workable guidelines and I'm pleased to see recognition that the whole pozzing/bug chasing thing is not being regarded as a fetish.

There are posters in this forum who sometimes invite open-ended discussion about a particular fetish "Do you like XXX?" or "What do you think about XXX?" That's different from a thread that says "Post your hottest story about XXX." Debating the sexiness of a kink in a thread where you're supposed to post your hottest story is clearly off-topic.

But I hope these new guidelines will still allow for free discussion between people who truly do, and truly do not, enjoy a particular kink, in select threads where that would be appropriate based on the OP. Maybe those threads could be marked somehow? Sometimes those are great discussions even between people who have very different instinctive reactions.

Absolutely. Free discussion without judgement is the end goal. There is a huge difference between open, constructive debate, and an open, destructive free for all - and the latter is what we want to stop. Where a question has been asked, most of us don't have an issue with someone saying, "I don't like scat because...." but there will be no place for "Eew, you guys are gross" discussions. We have added thread pre-fixes for people to use, but there's room for more if you guys have suggestions - and I will add 'Open Discussion' to them for the purpose you've mentioned above.

[quasar]

What your not allowed to say you stole some guys jock at the gym to wack-off into,really,what if it was say 20 years ago?

No, you CAN say it, but in doing so you have to accept that you've just confessed to a crime, and if a legal authority wanted to take it further, then JUB would have to comply with any criminal investigation. We're just trying to make sure that YOU are aware of the potential implications of your posts.

Those guidelines sound good to me, but I have one question...

In the topics that are to be presented as fantasy only (i.e. incest), is "calling bullshit" (lie or embellishment accusations) on people's stories considered baiting, trolling, or hijacking? I sure hope so, because most of the time, it's an unwanted disruption that ends up derailing a thread and ultimately ruining the fun of it, due to the hostile environment it creates that inhibits people from posting comfortably in general. I know people are entitled to their opinions but they don't have to be killjoys about it. That's just rude and annoying. Now that such stories are required to be (presented as) "fake", calling bullshit on them would be pointless and unnessecary since "real" ones aren't allowed, due to their legal ramifications (if I understand correctly).

Other than that, I like the new guidelines.

Well, members can still post real life events - we aren't stopping them, merely pointing out that if they start a thread "I just blew my sleeping friend", they will have to accept any legal action arising out of confessing to rape on an open forum.

We aren't going to patrol the threads and pick out which ones may be real or fantasy, but I agree with you, there should be no room for calling people out - as it may be real... or fantasy. We'll keep an eye out for that too.

[AWP82]

Well, members can still post real life events - we aren't stopping them, merely pointing out that if they start a thread "I just blew my sleeping friend", they will have to accept any legal action arising out of confessing to rape on an open forum.

We aren't going to patrol the threads and pick out which ones may be real or fantasy, but I agree with you, there should be no room for calling people out - as it may be real... or fantasy. We'll keep an eye out for that too.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

[quasar]

Can someone explain to me what "trolling" or "baiting " means?

I've only heard someone being called a "troll" once here. The word "troll" in that context meant the poster was a total lair.

Trolling is basically where someone posts a deliberately provocative comment knowing it will create drama, and then never returns to that thread to counter any arguments against his post. (Kind of 'hit and run'). There is less and less difference between trolls and baiters as time goes on.

Baiting is where a poster posts something stupid or contentious in order to get a response. Once someone is hooked, they'll often carry on. It used to be used to help build up post counts. Nowadays it's done because they think they're being clever - unfortunately, most people see through this and so the 'baiter' actually looks stupid.

There are some here who select who they bait - mainly in the Political forum - and then cry to the Mods when they realise they've bitten off more than they can chew...

[LittleDove]

There are posters in this forum who sometimes invite open-ended discussion about a particular fetish "Do you like XXX?" or "What do you think about XXX?" That's different from a thread that says "Post your hottest story about XXX." Debating the sexiness of a kink in a thread where you're supposed to post your hottest story is clearly off-topic.

But I hope these new guidelines will still allow for free discussion between people who truly do, and truly do not, enjoy a particular kink, in select threads where that would be appropriate based on the OP.

My question(s) or comments sort of follow off bankside's. I've been involved to one degree or another in the BDSM world for pretty much all of my adult life, and actually before my life became adult, but it's probably best to not go there, for a number of reasons, some of which are part of your new guidlines.

It's probably somewhat of an exaggeration, albeit a slight one, to say that more than half my time spent taking to people about the subject or teaching them about it, especially with those who are new to everything or just new to a particular scene, has consisted of being something of a wet blanket, of asking people to pause for a moment, to come up for air, and to think about the things they're considering.

Many people have a hard time transitioning from the world of fantasy to the world of reality, and all that reality may entail. Some simply don't realise the possible complications of what they're proposing, and some of those may mortally resent having the fantasy bubble they've constructed for themselves and around themselves being pricked.

For example, say someone comes to the forum and states they want to get into bondage, and want some pointers. I assume it's allowed to answer the first, stated part of the question. But is it also allowed to answer the unasked question there, of how to do that safely? From my point of view, there's no point in providing the first part of the answer without the second, but it concerns me as to how you'll respond when someone doesn't like having it be pointed out to them some of the possible complications and/or dangers like, say, cutting off circulation to a limb or appendage for an extended period of time.

It also concerns me when someone presents a fantasy that, IMO, cannot be done with any reasonable guarantee of safety. I could give a number of examples, but I'll settle for the moment for one that's more accessible: autoerotic asphyxiation. If someone presents this as their fantasy or fetish, something that they're into or looking at getting into, given my opinion -- that it cannot be done with any reasonable guarantee of safety -- am I allowed to voice that opinion, or is it best for me to keep my mouth shut and move on and try to pretend I didn't see the thread, if I want to continue as a member of the forum?

[quasar]

We've also included a set of thread-prefixes which are already in place:
.......

The thread prefixes work pretty good in identifying up front the type of discussion that the OP wants to encourage, and to help us have an idea of how the OP expects it to be moderated.

Additional pre-fixes added

• Content Warning - For use with potentially 'surprising' images ie. images that may require discretion. I remember once opening a thread to be greeted with an image of a dildo shoved up a guys dick. That was my introduction to 'sounding' and I really wish that I could 'unsee' that particular image - along with many others over the years!

• Open Discussion - For use when open and honest discussion is required. ie "What do you think about fisting?" This kind of discussion allows for different viewpoints made in a respectful manner - even if you may disagree with the subject. Do not think it is an opportunity to be judgemental though.

[quasar]

...For example, say someone comes to the forum and states they want to get into bondage, and want some pointers. I assume it's allowed to answer the first, stated part of the question. But is it also allowed to answer the unasked question there, of how to do that safely? From my point of view, there's no point in providing the first part of the answer without the second, but it concerns me as to how you'll respond when someone doesn't like having it be pointed out to them some of the possible complications and/or dangers like, say, cutting off circulation to a limb or appendage for an extended period of time.

I'm really pleased you brought this up! Once the guidelines are finalised, there will be other 'stickies' that gradually appear - including Health and Safety issues. In particular to your specific point raised, pointing out the complications and/or dangers would be totally permissable. Like rimming or bareback sex, you wouldn't be judging the fetish by pointing out sensible health and safety precautions that would enable someone to better enjoy their particular fetish or kink. In fact I think it would remiss of us if we DIDN'T play our part in this.

In fact if anyone has links to what they regard as excellent advice on any fetishes, kinks and health and safety, we'd be happy to consider them for posting here.

It also concerns me when someone presents a fantasy that, IMO, cannot be done with any reasonable guarantee of safety. I could give a number of examples, but I'll settle for the moment for one that's more accessible: autoerotic asphyxiation. If someone presents this as their fantasy or fetish, something that they're into or looking at getting into, given my opinion -- that it cannot be done with any reasonable guarantee of safety -- am I allowed to voice that opinion, or is it best for me to keep my mouth shut and move on and try to pretend I didn't see the thread, if I want to continue as a member of the forum?

Again, we positively encourage members to share helpful advice on the boards. Not discussing a topic doesn't mean it isn't going to happen, and again you wouldn't be judging his fetish. In this particular case all we can do is make sure that the member has all the available facts so that they can make an informed decision.

We have the potential to create a great 'one-stop' forum here, and everyone's input is invaluable to us.

[CTF]

My question(s) or comments sort of follow off bankside's. I've been involved to one degree or another in the BDSM world for pretty much all of my adult life, and actually before my life became adult, but it's probably best to not go there, for a number of reasons, some of which are part of your new guidlines.

It's probably somewhat of an exaggeration, albeit a slight one, to say that more than half my time spent taking to people about the subject or teaching them about it, especially with those who are new to everything or just new to a particular scene, has consisted of being something of a wet blanket, of asking people to pause for a moment, to come up for air, and to think about the things they're considering.

We haven't exactly figured out how to specifically address that just yet. Which is why we've added thread prefixes, which can also be added to a thread that has already been created, to point out a specific direction that a thread has gone into, or to better identify the OP's intent for discussion.

We've already addressed this in our discussion back here, and we feel that in some instances it is necessary for anyone of us (mods and members) to be able to address any health risks or dangers regarding certain fetishes or kink when those opportunities present themselves.

So the Mod Team is right there with you, and hopefully it would be ideal to create a "Fetish/Kink Health and Safety" Thread to include some "warnings" that we've either studied up upon, or experienced on a first hand basis.

Until then we'll just have to take each instance as it's presented, and deal with it from there in a positive and constructive manner.

Many people have a hard time transitioning from the world of fantasy to the world of reality, and all that reality may entail. Some simply don't realise the possible complications of what they're proposing, and some of those may mortally resent having the fantasy bubble they've constructed for themselves and around themselves being pricked.

Because it's a "fantasy" some folks honestly don't want an interruption of individuals coming into their thread and "tossing in a wet blanket."

Which is why we hope (because someone's discussion reminded them of certain health risks/dangers) that members will create a thread for their own discussion topic (while remaining respectful of the member who created that thread that reminded them) using the thread prefixes that we've provided for their own discussion.

Does that make sense?

For example, say someone comes to the forum and states they want to get into bondage, and want some pointers. I assume it's allowed to answer the first, stated part of the question. But is it also allowed to answer the unasked question there, of how to do that safely? From my point of view, there's no point in providing the first part of the answer without the second, but it concerns me as to how you'll respond when someone doesn't like having it be pointed out to them some of the possible complications and/or dangers like, say, cutting off circulation to a limb or appendage for an extended period of time.

We can only assume that they're looking for as much information that they can gather on that topic. And at that point it pretty much becomes an open discussion, even for those who didn't create that thread but have some questions of their own.

It also concerns me when someone presents a fantasy that, IMO, cannot be done with any reasonable guarantee of safety. I could give a number of examples, but I'll settle for the moment for one that's more accessible: autoerotic asphyxiation.

That very topic came up in conversation back here too, and to be honest many of us aren't comfortable with that form of "fetish/kink" because of the inherent dangers and risks involved.

If someone presents this as their fantasy or fetish, something that they're into or looking at getting into, given my opinion -- that it cannot be done with any reasonable guarantee of safety -- am I allowed to voice that opinion, or is it best for me to keep my mouth shut and move on and try to pretend I didn't see the thread, if I want to continue as a member of the forum?

Yes, you're allowed to present your opinion on the topic, and if you're not sure then please Post Report that topic and allow the Mod Team to decide whether that's a conversation that we want to allow or have in this forum.

Let the Mod Team take the heat for it rather than risk violating the posting guidelines, or our Code of Conduct here.

So long as the comments aren't being judgemental, distracting, or irresponsible, we've got some "wiggle room."

This is a forum for Mature Adults, and maturity has more to do with experience than with age, and come June 27, 2011 we expect everyone to comport themselves accordingly.

[AsianDream]

Although JUB is international, it is based in the United States, and the owners are US citizens. Thus US law applies. Which means that we stick to US law in those guidelines. If being gay is illegal in your country, you can still write about your gay experiences here, as it is legal in the US. However, this could be used against you in your country. And vice versa - if writing about your sexual experiences with 14 year olds is ok in your country due to your local age of consent laws, that doesn't make it OK in the US and JUB will not allow it.

As you point out JUB is a USA controlled site - and thus has to abide by the religion based laws of that juristiction.

However - looking at the new censorship rules you are planning to impose to comply with US laws - some threads now allowed will be banned.

I do disaprove of these new rules - but clearly these have alreadu been decided and you are not seeking any genuine input on these from members.

[CTF]

As you point out JUB is a USA controlled site - and thus has to abide by the religion based laws of that juristiction.

However - looking at the new censorship rules you are planning to impose to comply with US laws - some threads now allowed will be banned.

I do disaprove of these new rules - but clearly these have alreadu been decided and you are not seeking any genuine input on these from members.

And you're obviously looking to pick a fight with the Moderators and Owners of this website.

There will be new Posting Guidelines for this Forum, that decision has already been agreed upon.

We didn't come to this decision because of "religion based laws," or to comply with any new U.S. Pornography code.

In fact our Code of Conduct pretty much already covers most of that.

However, we have noticed some emotionally immature individuals who like to come into this forum, and judge actions, fetish, and kink of other members, and we want to put a stop to that, to allow for a more free flowing discussion.

We've identified some of the inherent legal risks, we feel that we're able to provide some solutions to better facilitate some of the discussions that members want to have here.

The "legal" aspects really kind of came as an after thought really, and we consulted with the legal counsel of Just Us Boys.com, and this is JUB's position, and by extension the Mod Team's position.

We're seeking input for any topic, or instance that that we may have missed, or that members feel that they're unclear upon in how these new guidelines will be implemented.

If you're suggestion is to do nothing, and to keep things the way that they've been? Then duly noted.

[Corny]

AsianDream, I am not sure what your problem is. Topics that are banned by US law, no matter how that law came into existence in the first place, won't be discussed here. And that is NOT up for a discussion.
I am certain there are things that are illegal in Honk Kong but are legal in other parts of the world. Yet you wouldn't demand on any site hosted in HK that they allow that discussion, would you?

[quasar]

...However - looking at the new censorship rules you are planning to impose to comply with US laws - some threads now allowed will be banned.

Can you please tell me which threads will be banned? Nowhere have we banned a particular topic.

I do disaprove of these new rules - but clearly these have alreadu been decided and you are not seeking any genuine input on these from members.

You do not know this site very well. We often amend guidelines based on what our members want - providing we can legally do it. Allowing discussions about sex with minors is simply not something that is negotiable. There are many quirks in the law around the world. Here in the UK, I can legally have sex with a 16yr old - however he would be breaking the law if he watched a porn DVD as part of any foreplay, and I would be breaking the law if I allowed him to watch it!!! It is impossible to monitor posts and moderate them based on the laws of the country that the particluar member came from, so it is easier to have a simple rule based on common laws - and here at JUB it is that people under 18 are not permitted to be discussed in a sexual manner.

[unloadonme]

Overall, this seems like a complete minefield for the unwary. I think I'll stick to F&G.

[CTF]

Overall, this seems like a complete minefield for the unwary. I think I'll stick to F&G.

Sometimes that's the best option.

[AsianDream]

Can you please tell me which threads will be banned? Nowhere have we banned a particular topic.

I do appreciate that this is a potential minefield for web site owners.

I guess my fight is more with many of these laws themselves - and the fact that there is often no valid reason for many of them.

One example of a current thread which I think would breach the new guidelines is Father-Son Incest which has around 950 posts and has been viewed over 640,000 times.

But correct me if I am wrong and you feel that all of the posts on this thread would still be acceptable under the new policy?

However - just looking at a small sample of other threads active in the last week - there would also seem to be many other threads which to me would seem to have problems under the new rules:

Ever caught your dad/uncle/bro/cuz jerking off? (subsequent posts)
Spycams, Hidden Cams, Voyeur!
Brother on Brother-Incest (subsequent posts)
Fetish - Public Sex? (in that public sex is illegal in the USA)

As I mentioned before - though I'm not in New Zealand - my pet persoanl hated dumb law is that nation's ban on publishing anything promoting or supporting watersports - whether in print or online (not just pictures - but even writing about it).

The no "YUK" comments rule on a fetish is maybe a good idea - provided it applies only to threads that don't invite comments

[EJMichaels]

Do I understand correctly that most of the threads listed below are "acceptable" if the present (not past) participants are at least 18 years old, and the poster is aware of the legal risk in confessing to illegal acts? The OP of the Father-Son thread specified he meant adult sons, so it's a matter of understanding posts could be confessions of crimes.

...
One example of a current thread which I think would breach the new guidelines is Father-Son Incest which has around 950 posts and has been viewed over 640,000 times.

Ever caught your dad/uncle/bro/cuz jerking off? (subsequent posts)
Spycams, Hidden Cams, Voyeur!
Brother on Brother-Incest (subsequent posts)
Fetish - Public Sex? (in that public sex is illegal in the USA)

Regarding the item below, some people who think they are expressing an opinion are not very good at phrasing things properly - the difference between "you are gross" and "I am grossed out by it". I assume there would first be warnings if these statements appear in threads that invited personal opinions.

The no "YUK" comments rule on a fetish is maybe a good idea - provided it applies only to threads that don't invite comments

[EJMichaels]

...So the Mod Team is right there with you, and hopefully it would be ideal to create a "Fetish/Kink Health and Safety" Thread to include some "warnings" that we've either studied up upon, or experienced on a first hand basis.

....Because it's a "fantasy" some folks honestly don't want an interruption of individuals coming into their thread and "tossing in a wet blanket."

Which is why we hope (because someone's discussion reminded them of certain health risks/dangers) that members will create a thread for their own discussion topic (while remaining respectful of the member who created that thread that reminded them) using the thread prefixes that we've provided for their own discussion.

Does that make sense?


...So long as the comments aren't being judgemental, distracting, or irresponsible, we've got some "wiggle room."

So, let's say we see a fantasy thread that seems to be screaming for some health advice. It would be distracting to point out the health issues, right? Posting the issues in another thread would be better, you say. In theory, that's sensible, but theory doesn't work well much of the time. (Does the phrase "herding cats" ring any bells here?) As a compromise, I could see someone posting a health message along the lines of "I see some risks here and I've started a thread on it if you're interested."

Also -
ACT in Toronto puts out a rather comprehensive booklet "Safer Kinky Sex". Here's the link so you can see if it would be useful in a health sticky. http://www.actoronto.org/home.nsf/pages/bdsm

[quasar]

I do appreciate that this is a potential minefield for web site owners.

I guess my fight is more with many of these laws themselves - and the fact that there is often no valid reason for many of them.

One example of a current thread which I think would breach the new guidelines is Father-Son Incest which has around 950 posts and has been viewed over 640,000 times.

But correct me if I am wrong and you feel that all of the posts on this thread would still be acceptable under the new policy?

However - just looking at a small sample of other threads active in the last week - there would also seem to be many other threads which to me would seem to have problems under the new rules:

Ever caught your dad/uncle/bro/cuz jerking off? (subsequent posts)
Spycams, Hidden Cams, Voyeur!
Brother on Brother-Incest (subsequent posts)
Fetish - Public Sex? (in that public sex is illegal in the USA)

As I mentioned before - though I'm not in New Zealand - my pet persoanl hated dumb law is that nation's ban on publishing anything promoting or supporting watersports - whether in print or online (not just pictures - but even writing about it).

The no "YUK" comments rule on a fetish is maybe a good idea - provided it applies only to threads that don't invite comments

I think the only problems that will arise are ones of age. Whereas before we have been somewhat lax in editing any posts that refer to past events that happened when the poster was under 18, these will now not be permitted. The best way around that one is to simply say "when I was younger" and leave it at that.

The other threads you've mentioned are not problematic - as we've said, we're not going to decide if what people are posting is real or fantasy. If someone wants to post "I sucked off my drunken best friend last night", then that is up to them.

[quasar]

Do I understand correctly that most of the threads listed below are "acceptable" if the present (not past) participants are at least 18 years old, and the poster is aware of the legal risk in confessing to illegal acts? The OP of the Father-Son thread specified he meant adult sons, so it's a matter of understanding posts could be confessions of crimes.

Yes, ages should no longer be mentioned when describing past events. It's fine to say I lost my virginity when I was 14, but it wouldn't be fine to then continue describing the event.

Regarding the item below, some people who think they are expressing an opinion are not very good at phrasing things properly - the difference between "you are gross" and "I am grossed out by it". I assume there would first be warnings if these statements appear in threads that invited personal opinions.

"you are gross" would not be acceptable, but the latter would be acceptable.

[quasar]

...As a compromise, I could see someone posting a health message along the lines of "I see some risks here and I've started a thread on it if you're interested."

I don't see that as a problem at all.

Also -
ACT in Toronto puts out a rather comprehensive booklet "Safer Kinky Sex". Here's the link so you can see if it would be useful in a health sticky. http://www.actoronto.org/home.nsf/pages/bdsm

Thanks for that, we'll check it out!

[star-warrior]

In some areas you are not right on this - an exampe being Incest - that is legal for half the world's population. also in terms of legal age of consent (which was 14 in my case).

In many countiies just being gay is breaking the law.

You have the power on this site to impose rules. I'm rather used to this sort of arbirary power being abused in real life - it's an everyday fact of life in China - we don't have much option other than to obey the authorities.

I don't have a probelm to adhere to your guidelines as presented. But I do think shame on you for imposing these rules on others.

To my way of thinking - the "powers that be" on this site are bringing it into disripute.

I've been here for 4 years - you're new guidlines do look to me as being very flawed - and maybe you will regret these later.

OK, imagine there are no rules and guidelines. People can slag other folks off, tell them they look awful, reduce their self esteem, pick on them for their penis sizes - that'll be the end of the Show Yourself Off forum.

Folks can argue and troll each other, name calling, threatening behaviour, unpleasantness - just as in CE&P but with the knives out.

If there were no age restrictions, well there'd be people showing their underaged bits and what crowd of gawkers would that bring along?

Rules of the forums define user interaction which promote community based interaction to enhance and encourage users to engage with topics within bounds of decency, civility and legal requirements.

These forums are owned by someone, and as such it is a private concern. You and I are guests here. We should like be guests in someone's home observe standards of acceptable behaviour so that other guest can feel comfortable and at ease here. Rules whether they are new or amended help users know what are acceptable boundaries to operate in.

This is a community, and even though we're in the Fetish forum, there are people who whilst turned on by certain things are still unsure if they should make a contribution to the community, or to find out the things they're interest in. If all they get is someone shouting abuse at them, they'd not want to stay and move on. It'd be a loss for them, and maybe the community too. Having said that, certain things outlined also safeguard against illegal and unwanted attentions, such as those who are interest in u/a materials. There is a wide degree of freedom to write what you like how you like. If the forums do not suit your needs, then you're quite free to wander off to a different site that does do the illegal stuff you may want.

[SGTMaster]

Wow a can of worms that is turning into a truck load. It can be pretty simple if you stop and think about it. And if you don't mind, my two cents...

An important thing is, how many mods in the Fetish area are living a fetish life? It is hard to understand and see an insult to a WS, BDSM or whatever if you have no idea what is even being talked about let alone the feelings and emotions behind the posters.

Also there is how things are written. It is pretty clear from the verb-age that anything with incest, "rape" or bare backing will instantly put you in the uncivilized and below the rest of us category. There is no reason to state the social feelings on an issue in a guideline, unless it is to shame.

There is also the assumption that if you write about wanting to try something you must be a dumb ass and therefore lectured by your elders about what can go wrong. JUB is willing to assume that each member is of legal age and mental ability to consent and understand a legal agreement between JUB and a user under United States Law. Therefore JUB should also be able to assume that those same people are mentally competent to make sexual and or personal choices without a naysayer telling you about the evils of what you are doing.

There is preferential treatment on here, just not how you expect it. The "your fetish is evil" crowd has overrun a number of threads and have scared off and I am sure distressed a number of people. The verb-age of the guidelines help re-enforce that higher status of anyone that is more vanilla. Just how it is written shows that even a thought of a "taboo" subject is suspect to legal procedures against a person.

The idea that people are willing or telling others to leave for what they say never is good. A community should be just that, a group of people together. However if a person feels the need to attack over the very reason we are here in this section, maybe that is a necessary evil. I do not think 7 days for any offense is a good idea. It does not show you mean business, it shows you are a hard ass. Not to mention I see abuse with this idea.

So to put it bluntly before I write a novella, put the guidelines in black and white without veiled judgements, assume that if we are competent to enter into your user agreement we are competent to understand any and all repercussions of our actions, get some mods that live the fetish life, give warnings or day or so bans to start and maybe even allow people to bitch smack the vanilla whiners back into shape. After all, it is hard enough to even mention you have a fetish (think how hard it was to come out as gay either to yourself or others, now do it again thinking about all the pain the first time caused you and how you will further alienate yourself just so you can have a little bit of fleeting happiness in this short life), now add a bunch of people you don't know telling how you will die or go to jail for what an evil person you are. JUB could be amazing, if we allow it...

[quasar]

If I let you borrow my car to go to a certain city, I could warn you about the speed cops that are always just around the corner outside of town, or I could leave it. If you got caught speeding, you'd probably be pissed at me for not warning you. Alternatively, I could just point out a couple of side roads to take to avoid the speed cops altogether!

Many of the problems we've had in the past stem from the fetishes that have legal implications. They seem to generate more negative responses that other subjects.

Initially, the idea was to simply not accept those topics, however following consultation with our lawyer, we have decided that we CAN allow discussions on those subjects.

Whilst we accept that "JUB should also be able to assume that those same people are mentally competent to make sexual and or personal choices", we are simply highlighting that IF a legal authority comes after you because you admitted to blowing your passed out friend, then JUB is 'without harm'.

We're not saying don't do it, we're simply saying 'be safe - present it as a fantasy, not a real event'.

The 7-day forum ban is for those who come into a thread and post a 'You guys are sick/perverts etc' comment that simply serves as a judgement. Obviously, the infraction system will still be used for other Code of Conduct breaches.

It's going to take a while to see how it goes. Guidelines are never written in stone, and we are always willing to look at tweaks as we go along.

[EJMichaels]

Good speed trap analogy.

[SGTMaster]

While I agree with the idea behind the speed trap analogy I think we are losing sight of the idea behind what I said. Granted a stickie at the top can be the friendly warning of the speed trap (to continue the theme) but a person does not need someone in the car telling them how exactly to drive and reading every speed limit sign they come across. Which was what I was getting at. Sure, put up a stickie, not a bad idea in my book. But, beware of people jumping on threads to warn others. Heck, given enough time I am sure I can find a legitimate warning for pretty much every topic on here.

Always a good idea to leave a little wiggle room when dealing with anything. Personal discretion when dealing with infractions can always be a be tricky though. I have seen it on a message board before, back when I did some mod work myself. Some people posted a lot and had one opinion. That kept others from posting more than a couple comments here and there. Needless to say those people had a run of the board. If they insulted you, you must have taken it wrong...if you insult them, your an ass and here's your (insert number of days here) ban. Got some outspoken people and a mod of the other opinion and things cleared up. Just hate to see that here. Too many sites have been ruined by people feeling the need to interject their opinion at any and all opportunities.

[Huntneo(PT)]

Great work, Mods!

Sounds like a great system to me, and I can't wait to see the changes take effect. They are very MUCH needed.

[cocksucker4use]

I have been in New Zealand, and fortunately, I never wrote about water sports there. I did go swimming; never snorkled, but did not write about either, thus dodging that bullet. I, for one, never fantasized about illegal activities of any kind prior to the age of 18. That is, in the past. Now, however, as an adult person, I do sometimes fantasize about hypothetical situations that could or could not be - rightly or wrongly -- sexually suggestive to some. However, I do not judge these, my fellow travelers, for perhaps misinterpreting my hypothetical, legal, adult and private potential fantasies.