The Official MADONNA Discussion Thread!

[Paws]

Don't see what the big deal is really. Let her circumsize the kid, its not like it matters in the long run.

My foreskin is sacred. Rub it and you see a genie appear.

[belamy]

Is this really about circumcision or about Madonna?

[Green_Man_007]

She is going to far, first just taking the baby and now this. She needs a reality check, as she just seems to be living in the clouds at the moment. I used to like her but this whole adoption thing has turned me very much against her, she has no idea of the Malawian people or their culture and just does as she wants. Bitch.

David Ritchie isn't going to be raised Malawian, but British. After his biological mother died, his biological father -- who was obviously widowed -- gladly sent him away for the boy to escape poverty and all the pains that follow it.

At age 18, David will be able to vote as British, serve in the British Royal military, travel with a UK passport, and do all the things that a normal British citizen can.

That's what adoption means --- beoming part of another family, and their culture by extension.

My cousin and her husband adopted an orphan girl from Russia, but no-one expects them to force her into mink boots and quiz her on the Romanov dynasty while she slams vodka.

[Green_Man_007]

Oh please the woman thinks she can do anything she wants because of who she is. When she first got the kid she said she wasn't going to change him or anything, seems she has a short memory.

If she wanted to help those people she should have given some of her vast fortune to help more people rather than take a kid from his home to use as some sort of trophy!!! I would have had more respect for her doing that rather than put this kid through the 'Madonna Circus' which he finds himself in.

You know nothing about how she raises kids.

[SouthBeach30]

Let me see if I got this right:

Madonna is evil because:

She wants to have her adopted child circumsised
She adopted a child from Malawi

Have any of you actually been to Africa? I'm not talking about the southern tip, the islands off Africa or the pyramids. I mean places like Malawi, which have problems with widespread starvation, disease, HIV and high infant mortality. I very much doubt you have. Maybe Madonna could have just thrown some money at Malawi, smiled pretty for the cameras, got back on her jet and left. Instead, she adopted a child and thus brought far more attention to this crisis that had ever been paid to it before. She is also enriching the life of one person, who will hopefully, serve as an example of what the children in Malawi can become if the international community got off it's collective ass and did something concrete for the people other than sending their government money.

As for the removal of the child's foreskin: get over it! I know many of you have strong feelings about this, but calling it "barbaric mutilation" is a bit much in my opinion. She is doing this for her own reasons, be they hygenic or religious. I don't think circumcision is a good thing, but as far a I can tell, nobody has asked me for my opinion on what Madonna should do with her child.

I think "barbaric mutilation" might be what happened to the men and women in Congo who had their arms, legs, feet, ears and eyelids cut off, tounges cut out, fingers snapped off, etc. during the Congo Wars. Or maybe "barbaric mutiliation" describes the damage the US inflicted on people we partially burned alive with Napalm.

[Green_Man_007]

She's rich. And a media darling. Doesn't that give her the right to do whatever the hell she wants to do?

Actually, it does

Where have you been?

We let Paris Hilton drive on public roads, Stephen "BioDome" Baldwin be a missionary, Courtney Love reproduce, and Mel Gibson make an Aramaic snuff film.

Adopting a foreign baby is done all the time by average people.

[belamy]

This thread reminds me so much of the one about the recent havoc wreaked on that dancing penguin...

[xcasex]

OH my God.
I am SOOOOOO Fucking tired of hearing about Mandonna.
She wants to circumcise HER kid.
What exactly is so barbaric about that?
I can see if she wanted to get "Madonna's Kid" branded on his forehead or something. But circumcision? Let's be real. It's 2006. He isn't the first.

[Green_Man_007]

Is this really about circumcision or about Madonna?

Great question

I'm not a huge fan of Madonna as a performer, but I admire her as a business woman.

I also have great respect for her as a mother.

As much as she likes to stire the media into frenzy, you'll never see her let them exploit her children, and you'd only see them wearing outrageous outfits on Hallowe'en, if they so choose to wear them and be photographed.

[Nonimus]

Let me see if I got this right:

Madonna is evil because:

She wants to have her adopted child circumsised
She adopted a child from Malawi

Have any of you actually been to Africa? I'm not talking about the southern tip, the islands off Africa or the pyramids. I mean places like Malawi, which have problems with widespread starvation, disease, HIV and high infant mortality. I very much doubt you have. Maybe Madonna could have just thrown some money at Malawi, smiled pretty for the cameras, got back on her jet and left. Instead, she adopted a child and thus brought far more attention to this crisis that had ever been paid to it before. She is also enriching the life of one person, who will hopefully, serve as an example of what the children in Malawi can become if the international community got off it's collective ass and did something concrete for the people other than sending their government money.

As for the removal of the child's foreskin: get over it! I know many of you have strong feelings about this, but calling it "barbaric mutilation" is a bit much in my opinion. She is doing this for her own reasons, be they hygenic or religious. I don't think circumcision is a good thing, but as far a I can tell, nobody has asked me for my opinion on what Madonna should do with her child.

I think "barbaric mutilation" might be what happened to the men and women in Congo who had their arms, legs, feet, ears and eyelids cut off, tounges cut out, fingers snapped off, etc. during the Congo Wars. Or maybe "barbaric mutiliation" describes the damage the US inflicted on people we partially burned alive with Napalm.

A good point well made. I have a good freind from Rawanda, and he told me about part of his puberty initiation rite which occurred when he was 12 years old:

He and a group of other 12 year old boys who were also being 'initiated' were marched down to the riverside stark naked. It was at the crack of dawn, and the riverside was chosen because it was cold and would make their penis shrivell.

Then the leader of the community stood them over a tree stump, yanked their foreskin forward and 'slash' down came the chopper - the boy's were now 'men'.

Circumcision is a rite belonging to made cultures world-wide ancient and modern, not just the Jews or indeed the "Kabbalah cult".

So back to Belamy's question: Is this about Madonna or about Circumcision?

[Soilwork]

I will say this...

ciscumcision is a barbaric practice done by parents who think of their children as property and not people.

I have never forgiven my parents for doing it to me, and I never will.

If you're that hell bent on ciscumcision, you should get it done as an adult and not take that decision away from a baby who has no say in the matter.



That being said.. Madonna isn't even fucking Jewish.. she's some Kabala poseur who's publicity stunts have included pretending to be a lesbian, walking around naked in public, wearing underwear in public, making "controvescial videos" for sub-par songs in an effort to have another hit, dating Michael Jackson, pretending she can act, shaing off her eye brows, making a coffee table book that featured close-up photos of her vagina, having her first daughter and parading around the latino man she chose as the donor at a press conference, being a bitch to David Letterman and Arsenio Hall on their shows and countless other stupid things which are just too ridiculous to mention.

She's a genius, that's for sure... she's made being famous possible for LOTS of people who can't sing, can't act, can't dance and can't write songs.

She'll be Catholic again in a year or two, and she'll still have circumcized her son... which let's face it.. is just YET ANOTHER fucking publicity stunt.

[Zero gravitas.]

Belamy, Nonimus.

It's about both.
Madonna the creature who would inflict her religious doctrine upon a child, her using the child as an accessory, and her complete and utter reversion to the dark ages in circumcising the boy.

EDIT: Perfectly said, Soilwork.

[Nonimus]

Belamy, Nonimus.

It's about both.
Madonna the creature who would inflict her religious doctrine upon a child, her using the child as an accessory, and her complete and utter reversion to the dark ages in circumcising the boy.

EDIT: Perfectly said, Soilwork.

Fair enough, that's your opinion, although the use of the 'Dark Ages' is questionable to say the least, I take it you're using it as a metaphor. I'm sure there's more to life than having a piece of skin on the end of your penis. Mine was removed as an infant and I have no bitterness or resentment - It has never been an issue or a problem.

[luminum]

This is more of a circumcision thread, obviously.

I feel that circumcision is wrong. The reasons for doing it are hardly worth the rediculousness of the proceedure and the high rates of messing the operation up. the rate of a penis being messed up is 2 in 100. That's two boys with penises damaged or even worse,d estroyed, by botched circumcisions.

Statistically, any 'protection' and 'hygiene' offered by circumcision is pathetically minimal. Even studies regarding increased protection from STD's are conflicted, one group achieving great results, another reaching no difference in protection.

Is it worth that?

Up until recently (and we're talking really recently) circumcisions were performed without any form of anesthetic because doctors had some kind of perverse notion that babies couldn't feel pain, or even if they could, they wouldn't remember it, so babies were held down and skinned.

As for brises (sp?), I doubt dropping some wine in a kid's mouth is really going to make things that much better.

And besides medically, circumcision is a decision that only the person with the foreskin should make. Doing anything else, out of pure aesthetic or fluidity of religion or cultural tradition is a violation of personal body. Madonna, of all people, should understand how religious and cultural beliefs can change.

And this doesn't just apply to her, but all people who understand personal choice in all things moral, religious, and based in the body.

So yes, I think it's just as 'barbaric' and outdated a mutilation when made without consent when the person is unable to consent as female circumcision. Just because it's a cultural or religious tradition doesn't make it right.

[J-23]

So first she adopts a son (for publicity purposes). And now she's mutilating him (for publicity purposes) in the name of a religion with which she associates herself (for publicity purposes). Yay for attention whores!

[RenaissanceMan]

ciscumcision is a barbaric practice done by parents who think of their children as property and not people.

On the other hand, your parents do get to decide a lot in your early years about your future...and there are I guess some hygienic reasons for circumcision. Children may not be property, but parents quite well deserve some influence over their children. My parents didn't do it because it was also unheard of in their culture, though I ended up needing it for medical reasons. Why this is a religious thing, I'm not sure. My circumcision was not my choice, but it was far from barbaric. Now, if they purposely tried to prolong my pain...

[Zero gravitas.]

What I am also concerned about is that just when the practice is in decline this 'celebrity' goes and publicly contemplates it. I sincerely hope that her followers don't blindly follow her and make it fashionable again, for however short a period.

[Soilwork]

On the other hand, your parents do get to decide a lot in your early years about your future...and there are I guess some hygienic reasons for circumcision.

I asked my parents why they did it, and they didn't know.

"We didn't really give it any thought.. they just said 'we'll circumcize them tomorrow' at the hospital and we just had it done..."

they didn't do it for any reason other than... they just let it happen.

(and that hygenic reason is a lie... there's no truth to it at all. You may as well cut off my ears because you're too lazy to teach me to clean behind them)

[theReckless]

Parents have their kids circumcised every day.
Why does Madonna get a huge debate about it?

[gabriel1]

My foreskin is sacred. Rub it and you see a genie appear.

The only thing is when the genie "SPITS in my eye" OUCHHH!

[sb]

what will be the next controversy?...... Madonna takes adopted baby to doctor to get needles filled with vaccines against diseases jabbed in its body

If I had a child I wouldn't have it circumcized but a baby getting circumcized is hardly scandal worthy.

[J-23]

what will be the next controversy?...... Madonna takes adopted baby to doctor to get needles filled with vaccines against diseases jabbed in its body

If I had a child I wouldn't have it circumcized but a baby getting circumcized is hardly scandal worthy.

Well, protecting your child against potentially fatal diseases is a bit different than mutilating its genitalia for absolutely no reason.

And I think people find it scandal-worthy because she's doing it in the name of a religion that she only "practices" in order to attract attention to herself. Plus the fact that she said her son is too young to be associated with any belief system.

[Nonimus]

Well, protecting your child against potentially fatal diseases is a bit different than mutilating its genitalia for absolutely no reason.

And I think people find it scandal-worthy because she's doing it in the name of a religion that she only "practices" in order to attract attention to herself. Plus the fact that she said her son is too young to be associated with any belief system.

I wasn't aware that Madonna had made such a statement, and if such is true then that makes her stance hypocritcal. From the same source as jlukes19 refers:

"Malawi is a country ravaged by poverty, hunger, and disease. Here, more than half the population lives on less than 50 cents a day and with one of the highest rates of HIV infection in the world life, expectancy is 41 years."

To take a child from that kind of background and introduce it to a land where opportunity flourishes is good thing. I'm no Madonna fan at all, in fact - I've never bought ONE of her singles, but she has to be applauded for making a difference in one person's life.

On the topic of circumsicion: Statements such as 'barbaric' and 'dark ages' are pathetic and emotive if there's nothing more to your life than a piece of skin on the end of your dick - i pity you. There are people out there who treat their kids like shit, ignore them, abuse them put them down at every chance and even reject them for trivial matters such as not doing well in school to being gay. All parents fuck up at some point or another, this kid got a lucky break - let's just hope he realizes what benefits have been placed before him.

[paul107]

To take a child from that kind of background and introduce it to a land where opportunity flourishes is good thing. I'm no Madonna fan at all, in fact - I've never bought ONE of her singles, but she has to be applauded for making a difference in one person's life.

And by giving some money to the people that live in the same village as the child to get a new water system or drugs to help diseases, something like that she could have made a difference to more than just one life. If she'd done that she'd be getting a lot more respect instead of using her celebrity status to rush an adoption through. She's only doing it to keep up with the Pitts!

On the topic of circumsicion: Statements such as 'barbaric' and 'dark ages' are pathetic and emotive if there's nothing more to your life than a piece of skin on the end of your dick - i pity you. There are people out there who treat their kids like shit, ignore them, abuse them put them down at every chance and even reject them for trivial matters such as not doing well in school to being gay. All parents fuck up at some point or another, this kid got a lucky break - let's just hope he realizes what benefits have been placed before him.

But it's unnecessary. It was original done to stop kids wanking as it's a sin (although that could be an urban myth, lol).......and let's see did it really work? Cleanliness? Bollocks I've never had any problem with that issue. Wash properly when you have a shower or a bath and that will solve that issue. Also the theory that it stops HIV infection is still under heavy debate and isn't proven........then again sticking a condom on will also reduce the risk of HIV spreading and is a lot less drastic than loping off the foreskin of every single male!

You know this happens everytime the cut v uncut debate comes up. I don't give a shit if a cock is cut or uncut. The person it's attached to is more important than his cock. There's no point having an incredible dick is the guy is a cunt!

I do think that it should be the person's choice and not the parents, the doctors or religions. Personally I'm pleased I still have mine.

And yeah Nomi there are people who treat their kids like shit but circumcision is an emotive issue for some people........whenever these threads come up we get the same arguments from both sides which proves it!! And I think this thread is more about people thinking Madonna is a bitch then the issue of circumcision.

[Nonimus]

Several points Paul:

1) There's no point having an incredible dick is the guy is a cunt! - Good point for both sides

2) whenever these threads come up we get the same arguments from both sides which proves it!! - Which is why i cringed once i had pressed the 'enter' button

3) And I think this thread is more about people thinking Madonna is a bitch then the issue of circumcision - true people will make judgements according to their own personal prejudice rather than the facts each time - like gay adoption

4)And yeah Nomi there are people who treat their kids like shit but circumcision is an emotive issue for some people - It's NONI not Nomi!!!

[paul107]

4)And yeah Nomi there are people who treat their kids like shit but circumcision is an emotive issue for some people - It's NONI not Nomi!!!

Sorry

Ironic we were talking about dicks, as I feel a bit of a one now.

[Nonimus]

You should be!

But since you've obviously been upgraded with Windows XP - I'll forgive you.

[Riverrick]

Is this really about circumcision or about Madonna?

Good question. Seems to be about Madonna.

I would have hope that she would have seen this custom for what it is, though. I don't know why it bothers me that Madonna in particular is choosing this for her child but it sort of does.

[paul107]

You should be!

But since you've obviously been upgraded with Windows XP - I'll forgive you.

How was snogging a Cyberman???

Joking aside I apologise!! I hate it when people spell my name wrong.

[paul107]

I would have hope that she would have seen this custom for what it is, though. I don't know why it bothers me that Madonna in particular is choosing this for her child but it sort of does.

Has the adoption actually been finalised yet?

[Zero gravitas.]

Not yet, and I sincerely hope it isn't, as the father has re-married and I would hope he and his new (pregnant) wife would want him back.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/19112006/32...remarries.html

(And why can't I just write 'link' instead of it pasting the whole addy?)

[Eromenos]

I just have to say...none of us that are circumcised (American, Jewish, etc.) can actually remember the pain we went through. Now for adult males...the pain is excrutiating, but if they don't like their foreshin and want to remove it then cool. Reconstructive surgery to add foreskin is also available to circumcised males, so those guys that were robbed of the decision to keep their foreskin can go and buy a new one. But this idea that grown men are resenting their parents' decision to keep or remove a piece of skin is ridiculous. (i.e. I was fed meat/dairy and clothed in wool/leather by my folks until I moved out to attend college. I'm now a vegetarian. Should I resent my parents for it? No. Should I forgive them? There's nothing to forgive.) Moms and dads usually do what they think is best for their children, no matter how small or big an issue, and that includes celebrity parents. Let it go. I'm sure David will be ever so thankful that Madonna and Guy saved him from the bleakest poverty and unselfishly welcomed him into one of the most privileged families in the world.

p.s. Guys, Madonna has never claimed to have left the Catholic religion nor has she claimed to be Jewish.

[Soilwork]

Eromenos. I resent my parents for letting me be circumsized without my consent.

it's my body... and they didn't even question why part of it was being cut off.

they just let it happen without even a thought.

and it's my right to be pissed.


Oh, and Madonna now claims to be Jewish... much like she claimed to be a lesbian in the early 90s.

next she'll be an alien, I'm guessing.

[paul107]

How the fuck can she be talking about circumcised the kid if she hasn't legally adopted him yet?

[Riverrick]

But this idea that grown men are resenting their parents' decision to keep or remove a piece of skin is ridiculous.

Think about this Eromenos. They took a piece of your penis off. They went in and just lopped it off. Your penis of all fucking things! And you know that most sensitive part just under the head? Well they took a bunch of that away as well. Its called the frenulum and we no longer even have one.

And to boot, without a foreskin the head of our penis has dried up and lost its sensitivity. Why would you do that to a kid? Its totally fucked up and insane.

And the reason? For cleanliness. Well then pull all of my fingernails off so I can't get dirt under them either. Yea its an emotional issue when you cut a piece of my body off.

[RenaissanceMan]

(and that hygenic reason is a lie... there's no truth to it at all. You may as well cut off my ears because you're too lazy to teach me to clean behind them)

What about STD's? (but anyway, I'd also prefer not to do the circumcision thing unnecessarily...my mom was not just going with her culture, but actually thought about my unnecessary pain...I still got unlucky later on ).

[luminum]

Vasically, the higher risks of STD infection are probable in that there is a way tor ationalize why that could possibly happen. But the studies done were all conflicting, some showing that risk was reduced with circumcision and others showing that risk wasn't reduced. Either way, the consensus is that in the field of risk, behavioral risk is far more significant than being circumcised.

Also, urniary tract infections for boys are very low (about 1%) and for circumcised boys, it's .19% and .12%, which isn't enough between 1% (since 1% is already low) for the procedure to be done, in my opinion.

And with the rate of penile disfigurement/destruction being 2% (i.e. 2 out of every 100 boys circumcised), I'd say that it's not worth it.

[blondish]

I have never forgiven my parents for doing it to me, and I never will.

Totally agree. Thanks so much Mum and Dad

BTW I was circumsized at eight years old and very much forced into doing it and remember the pain very well (although was put under for the actual op). No discussion with me whatsoever, it was "this is what you WILL do".

[paul107]

And with the rate of penile disfigurement/destruction being 2% (i.e. 2 out of every 100 boys circumcised), I'd say that it's not worth it.

I think the 2 boys out of a 100 would disagree with you on that score.

Personally I think it's crap. I've never had a problem, but I wash under it when I shower so it's squeaky clean.

I wonder why religions feel the need to rive the foreskin off when child is born anyway? Didn't their god put it there in the first place? Did he make a mistake?

God - "Oops, what the fuck did I put that there for? It's going to give people all sorts of diseases......what the fuck was I thinking I know I'll tell them to rive it off to sort out my mistake"

[eddielee]

Calling circumcision "mutilation" is a bit too dramatic. I'm circumcised and my penis isn't mutilated. I don't mind that my parents had me circumcised. I just don't see what all the drama is about. Some of you act like it's the most horrible thing in the world. I like cocks cut, or uncut, it makes no difference.

[luminum]

I think the 2 boys out of a 100 would disagree with you on that score.

Personally I think it's crap. I've never had a problem, but I wash under it when I shower so it's squeaky clean.

I wonder why religions feel the need to rive the foreskin off when child is born anyway? Didn't their god put it there in the first place? Did he make a mistake?

God - "Oops, what the fuck did I put that there for? It's going to give people all sorts of diseases......what the fuck was I thinking I know I'll tell them to rive it off to sort out my mistake"

Um...re-read what you quoted. I said that since 2 out of 100 boys get disfigured, it's not worth circumcising kids.

[wundersteve]

Circumcising adult men may cut risk of AIDS

Updated Wed. Dec. 13 2006 3:23 PM ET
Associated Press
WASHINGTON -- Circumcising adult men may cut in half their risk of getting the AIDS virus through heterosexual intercourse, the U.S. government announced Wednesday, as it shut down two studies in Africa testing the link.
The National Institutes of Health closed the studies in Kenya and Uganda early, when safety monitors took a look at initial results this week and spotted the protection. The studies' uncircumcised men are being offered the chance to undergo the procedure.
The link between male circumcision and HIV prevention was noted as long ago as the late 1980s. The first major clinical trial, of 3,000 men in South Africa, found last year that circumcision cut the HIV risk by 60 per cent.
Still, many AIDS specialists had been awaiting the NIH's results as a final confirmation.
"Male circumcision can lower both an individual's risk of infection, and hopefully the rate of HIV spread through the community," said AIDS expert Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the NIH's National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.
But it's not perfect protection, Fauci stressed. Men who become circumcised must not quit using condoms nor take other risks -- and circumcision offers no protection from HIV acquired through anal sex or injection drug use, he noted.
"It's not a magic bullet, but a potentially important intervention," agreed Dr. Kevin De Cock of the World Health Organization.
Male circumcision is common at birth in the United States. But in sub-Saharan Africa, home to more than half of the world's almost 40 million HIV-infected people, there are large swaths of populations where male circumcision is rare.
The WHO plans an international meeting early next year to discuss the studies' results and how to translate them into policies that promote safe male circumcision -- done by trained health workers with sterile equipment -- while teaching men that it won't make them invulnerable.
Why would male circumcision play a role? Cells in the foreskin of the penis are particularly susceptible to the HIV virus, Fauci explained. Also, the foreskin is more fragile than the tougher skin surrounding it, providing a surface that the virus could penetrate more easily.
Researchers enrolled 2,784 HIV-negative men in Kisumu, Kenya, and 4,996 HIV-negative men in Rakai, Uganda, into the studies. Some were circumcised; others were just monitored.
Over two years, 22 of the circumcised Kenyans became infected with HIV compared with 47 uncircumcised men, a 53 per cent reduction. In Uganda, 22 circumcised men became infected vs. 43 of the uncircumcised, a 48 per cent reduction.
The researchers are offering all of the studies' uncircumcised men the chance to undergo the procedure, and 80 per cent of the uncircumcised Ugandans already have agreed, said lead researcher Ronald Gray of Johns Hopkins University.
Side effects were rare, including some mostly mild infections that were easily treated. The rate of side effects was comparable to those seen in circumcised U.S. infants, said Robert Bailey of the University of Illinois at Chicago, who led the Kenyan trial.

[Soilwork]

So the moral of the story is that I need to shag more men who were born in Africa.

(with condoms, of course)

[luminum]

Commentary in another study has stated that we shouldn't wait to find out if this is true and just offer it anyway so that if it is, many people need not contract HIV.

Nevertheless, I think it's important to mention the researchers and the studies that have shown that circumcision does not change contraction rates sinificantly or at all and mention that how people practice sex has a larger impact on contraction rates than their foreskin status.

[Hot_Twink]

You guys are looking at it wrong, David is a Christian and Madonna is Kabbalah. She wants to convert him to her religion and circumcision marks the formal entry into the Jewish community. Thats the problem.

[Dave_83]

QUestion: Do you twats believe everything you read??? LOL.

oh yeah! and WHO CARES.

[reinventedboy]

I think mine is Ray Of Light. Such a timeless Masterpiece.

[marcde]

I think this one has been done a few times before, but it's Christmas - so good will and spirit and all that- I'll answer again

Like A Prayer

[DryIce]

"Erotica."

[samdub]

my favourite would have to be LIKE A PRAYER. reminds me of my early teenage years!