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  1. #51
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    There was a draconian law in my country which allowed anyone to subpoena and sue an employer if they terminated your employment for any reason.

    Our courts were clogged.

    You have us at an advantage. Which country?

    I am fairly sure that those operating in the hospitality industry will not tempt fate by attempting to play smart now the matter has been settled.

    I appreciate that an appeal may overturn this decision.

  2. #52
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    quasar's thoughts are particularly British in their appeal to reason, moderation and consensus in addressing the conscience driven concerns of those people living according to their interpretation of religious principles.

    Nevertheless when the matter is one of discriminatory behaviour I do not believe that an opt out facility should be encouraged under any circumstances.

    I rather believe that there are very few bed and breakfast establishments in the UK which would not rent a room to a same gender couple as a result of the owner's religious principles.

    Those operating within the hospitality industry who are aghast at the result of this legal decision might well wish to consider alternative employment, or learn to live with the wishes of a nation that rejects such discriminatory behaviour as inhumane.

    I appreciate that quasar has made a subtle reference to Christianity being singled out, with Islam being a reminder of more extreme forms of discriminatory behaviour, that society would prefer not to deal with for fear of terrorist reactions. This may well be a fair observation.
    quasar's appeal makes better sense in countries like Spain, where rights are gained by decree and imposition by one government, without any real consensus, with a great deal of general indifference or laziness among the bulk of the population, and a very strong group, even if actually a minority, opposing those rights.

    What quasar shows reflects the real state of things to which I often make reference, to wit, that outside the USA, and to some degree in Britain, there is a deep mentality that people take as the real norm and truth, even in those Western countries taking themselves for thoroughly modern, democratic, Western countries, a mentality which takes as the basis of their societies and culture the same principles that prevail in countries they despise as barbarians and anti-Western: a prevalence of old, stale, rigid, simplistic religious prejudices and morals, valued above the capacity of democracy and law to realities that those morals and prejudices won't accept in the first place, much less deal with them.
    Since people lived for centuries with prejudiced morals based on religion, and while Modern Western law and science, just a few centuries old, reveal themselves as not providing the magic solve-it-all power that people expect from them and they just want to feel safe again without caring for "complexities" removed from their own interests, it is only a matter of time to return to "good ol'" morals and obscurities, a dangerously simplistic civilization idealized as perfectly simple.
    Of course that exists, rampantly, in the USA, but to prevail first they have to bowdlerize the laws and leave just the titles: Constitution, Bill of Rights... and to relaunch America just like John Smith relaunched Christianity with a totally different content under the same name, according to their own righteousness and prejudices of what is fascist, what is evil, un-American...

    In that, the help of the supposed liberal, progressive, open-minded or whatever will be priceless when their defense is in fact so much like the attacks, so that for people simply used to a state of things without being aware of where it comes from and what it means, won't be able to tell, under all the word banding what is being a real "fascist" imposition of the law and what is an attempt to topple law to impose a true "fascist" society.

  3. #53
    @ The House of Grimshaw pat grimshaw's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    It seems just a short time ago there were lots of Angry Young Men with long hair and pugnacious attitudes declaring they were Rebels and Sexual Outlaws!.

    Now, they are middle-aged and quite respectable!

    Quote Originally Posted by ~~~
    … The Law is clear…
    Quote Originally Posted by ~~
    … The law's the law…

  4. #54
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by belamo View Post
    quasar's appeal makes better sense in countries like Spain, where rights are gained by decree and imposition by one government, without any real consensus, with a great deal of indifference and a very strong group, even if actually a minority, opposing those rights.
    What quasar shows reflects the real state of things to which I often make reference, to wit, that outside the USA, and to some degree in Britain, there is a deep mentality that people take as the real norm and truth, even in those Western countries taking themselves for thoroughly modern, democratic, Western countries, a mentality which takes as the basis of their societies and culture the same principles that prevail in countries they despise as barbarians and anti-Western: a prevalence of old, stale, rigid, simplistic religious prejudices and morals, valued above the capacity of democracy and law to realities that those morals and prejudices won't accept in the first place, much less deal with them.
    Since people lived for centuries with prejudiced morals based on religion, and while Modern Western law and science, just a few centuries old, reveal themselves as not providing the magic solve-it-all power that people expect from them and they just want to feel safe again without caring for "complexities" removed from their own interests, it is only a matter of time to return to "good ol'" morals and obscurities, a dangerously simplistic civilization idealized as perfectly simple.
    On the contrary the United Kingdom is the definitive example of a society that attempts to legislate its social inter relationships with an eye on consensus, rather than by the dictates of government operating by conviction.

  5. #55
    @ The House of Grimshaw pat grimshaw's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    You have us at an advantage. Which country?…
    I'm not fighting. I think we gay men can try a little moderation. We can be a little gracious now that we, at long last, are in favour with the powerbrokers.

  6. #56
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    I'm not fighting. I think we gay men can try a little moderation. We can be a little gracious now that we, at long last, are in favour with the powerbrokers.
    I am attempting to relate to your comments on employment legislation that prompted an avalanche of lawsuits that clogged the courts.

    Is my question so difficult to answer?

    Knowing the name of your country will assist me to better appreciate your point.

    Moderation is the foundation of a harmonious society.

  7. #57
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    It seems just a short time ago there were lots of Angry Young Men with long hair and pugnacious attitudes declaring they were Rebels and Sexual Outlaws!.

    Now, they are middle-aged and quite respectable!
    They are holding the power now... what pissed the so-called "conservative" is not so much the principles that they don't accept, as the fact of lacking the effective power to trample and smother them.

    It is never about the ideas, the principles, what is "right", at least not ultimately so, maybe only as a beginning... in the end, it's power and the course of life of individuals exerting power and of regimes leading towards settlement, security, and the power that you need to achieve and preserve them, what drives societies.

  8. #58
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    I'm not fighting. I think we gay men can try a little moderation. We can be a little gracious now that we, at long last, are in favour with the powerbrokers.
    That's one fine example of what Spaniards call "throwing a stone and then hiding your hand".

  9. #59
    @ The House of Grimshaw pat grimshaw's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by asadoyayunta View Post
    The size of the business is entirely irrelevant. And don't believe all the stories about this "poor"…
    You cast aspersions on this "poor" couple but do you earn your income from the sweat of your own labour?

  10. #60
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    On the contrary the United Kingdom is the definitive example of a society that attempts to legislate its social inter relationships with an eye on consensus, rather than by the dictates of government operating by conviction.
    That's why quasar's description of the situation fit better a country like Spain, or "The Continent" in general.

  11. #61
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    You cast aspersions on this "poor" couple but do you earn your income from the sweat of your own labour?
    They shouldn't have put to risk that hard-earned income with a prejudiced and unlawful behavior which tries to make a rule out of their personal whims and peeves in the first place. If they can not or, rather, WON'T understand what a simple law says, they should have remained toiling, for their own safety and peace of mind, instead of trying to step out of their proper place by exerting a judicial sense which they had denied to themselves to begin with.
    You always, of course, have a sense of your own righteousness or even a plain prejudice, but pretending to pass it as a right and a rule just because you "feel" it or, worse, because you feel your god or your ideas and beliefs compel you to do so, is the sort of imposition that identifies with what you call "fascist" behaviour.

    This is the exact same problem that so many want to identify exclusively with Islamic morals: do you deem it an interference in the personal beliefs of those two very hard and decent workers the fact that they are asked to treat to married men as a perfectly legal marriage? Is that the "fascism" you were talking about?

  12. #62
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    They can keep their money to themselves, but they just can't get away with a plain case of immoral and unlawful discrimination without the corresponding lawsuit... that's not acceptable, at least not in the very core of the Western world that gave birth and full sense to the concepts of "law" and "right" and even "dignity" as we have them today.

  13. #63
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    After a shocking series of agreements with Quasar in other threads, I have to disagree with him on this. It may be very British to suggest a compromise which exempts some people from the law, but I feel it would be entirely wrong to do so here.

    It's not a tenet of the Christian faith that homosexuals should be discriminated against in the way that happened in this case. Most Christians have no trouble abiding by this law and, as I said in an earlier post, the church hierarchy, many of whom are members of the House of Lords which approved the Act, have not opposed it.

    If we allow one couple an exemption because their particular, perverse interpretation of the Bible compels them to discriminate, then we open the floodgates. Every bigot in the land only has to say that their homophobia is based on religious principles and they too will be allowed to do exactly as they please.

    There can be no compromise; it has to be all or nothing.

    The Equality Act requires everyone who offers services to the public to do so regardless not just of sexuality, but also of race, disability and a number of other distinguishing characteristics. Is that really so terrible? If Mr and Mrs Bull really cannot reconcile non-discrimination with their consciences, then they really ought not to be in the hotel business any longer. Recent press reports suggest that they may be driven out of business over this. Sobeit.

  14. #64
    Porn Star asadoyayunta's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    You cast aspersions on this "poor" couple but do you earn your income from the sweat of your own labour?
    Yes I do. And I actually have some sympathy for this couple because I believe they are genuine (if misguided) in their beliefs and are being encouraged, manipulated and financed in this case by malevolent far-right christian organisations who do not have their best interests at heart. By some accounts Mr Bull is awaiting heart surgery and I'm sure any worsening in his condition will only add fuel to the fire.

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    Porn Star asadoyayunta's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    You have us at an advantage. Which country?.
    In other threads Pat has claimed to live in Sydney.

  16. #66
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by asadoyayunta View Post
    In other threads Pat has claimed to live in Sydney.
    Thank you. I had already confirmed this with my own research. Pat has since sent me a PM confirming this.

  17. #67
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by asadoyayunta View Post
    Yes I do. And I actually have some sympathy for this couple because I believe they are genuine (if misguided) in their beliefs and are being encouraged, manipulated and financed in this case by malevolent far-right christian organisations who do not have their best interests at heart. By some accounts Mr Bull is awaiting heart surgery and I'm sure any worsening in his condition will only add fuel to the fire.

    It is standard practice in Common Law countries, such as England and Wales for defendants representing a conscience driven position to receive free legal support to defend their beliefs. Thus atheist action groups will support those atheists defending their conscience driven position, as will gay rights groups offer similar support when defending gays.

    This particular case has tested the appropriate legislation so that a precedent is established to guide people should a similar set of circumstances arise. Case law is both instructive, and an incentive to follow the relevant legislation or face penalties. All parties benefit from the the clarification that this legal decision offers the interested person.

  18. #68
    Porn Star asadoyayunta's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    It is standard practice in Common Law countries, such as England and Wales for defendants representing a conscience driven position to receive free legal support to defend their beliefs. Thus atheist action groups will support those atheists defending their conscience driven position, as will gay rights groups offer similar support when defending gays.

    This particular case has tested the appropriate legislation so that a precedent is established to guide people should a similar set of circumstances arise. Case law is both instructive, and an incentive to follow the relevant legislation or face penalties. All parties benefit from the the clarification that this legal decision offers the interested person.
    Except in this case I don't think the far-right christian organisations are acting benevolently to seek legal clarification. They know there is very little chance of this couple winning their appeal. The case could ultimately end up in the European Court and they will not win there. Their supporters motives are more to do with keeping the story in the press and stirring up homophobia in Middle England.

  19. #69
    @ The House of Grimshaw pat grimshaw's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case



    I wonder if I should I feel flattered or intimidated that I and my 'claims' are 'researched' and that I am spoken of in the third person?


  20. #70
    @ The House of Grimshaw pat grimshaw's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    This seems to be another case of a high-minded heavy-handed English judiciary creating chaos for people trying to run a small business.
    Furious that one of his staff had stolen hundreds of pounds from his business, Simon Cremer hung a sign saying ‘thief’ around the man’s neck and frogmarched him to a police station.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1EB6FtQS6
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ating-him.html

  21. #71
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    I am using the word 'entrapment' in the sense that I suspect they were Laborites who deliberately chose an hotel who was likely to refuse service to them in order to create a media scandal during the election campaign.
    First of all, it would be Labourites. Secondly, the gays who complained were Liberal Democrats, who are now part of the governing coalition alongside the Conservatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kensei View Post
    Things to consider:

    1. It's their business.
    2. It's their business inside their home.
    They could put their business in their home or inside Ann Coulter's left nostril for all I care; if I show up with a reserved room and my husband, I'm bloody well staying the night.

    The bottom line is, it is unreasonable to expect the consumer to confirm in advance whether any particular aspect of his being conforms to the prejudices of the business owner.

    That's why we have ordinary consumer rights legislation, let alone human rights legislation. People who keep at this nonsense should have their business sued into oblivion.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  22. #72
    @ The House of Grimshaw pat grimshaw's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    …if I show up with a reserved room and my husband, I'm bloody well staying the night.…
    I'm sorry, Mr Bankside, I will not allow aggressive behaviour and bad language in my establishment!

  23. #73
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    It took me awhile to find the information but when I finally did, I was less surprised then I'd expected. The B&B is beautiful, and with out knowing the owners I could hardly pass judgement that they're bigots.

    All that aside, this comment really singles out a lot of people.



    For those that couldnt find the comment quoted by the OP.

  24. #74
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Time to resurrect this thread with some good news.

    The hateful owners of the hotel took their case to the Court of Appeal where today happily they LOST.

    The story is reported by the BBC here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15811223

    and anyone who'd like to visit the hotel site (if not the hotel itself understandably) can find it here:

    http://www.chymorvah.co.uk/

  25. #75
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    I'm certain they will have hosted couples married overseas in the past without hesitation, and without questioning the legitimacy of the marriage certificate brought from another country.

    Since they deny any hint of homophobia, but frame their objection only to unmarried couples, perhaps one of us Canadians should show up with our marriage certificates which are issued just as readily for same-sex couple as for mismatched-sex couples.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  26. #76
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    I doubt very much that they actually ask to see marriage certificates. People just don't carry them around. If you're a heterosexual couple and you claim to be married, I expect that's good enough.

    What surprises me is that they haven't been made to take this prejudiced stuff down from their website.

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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Time to bring this thread back from the vaults for another airing.

    The owners of the hotel, Mr and Mrs Bull, are now having to sell up, essentially because nobody much is prepared to carry their advertising. Meanwhile, the Supreme Court will hear their appeal on 9 October.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-24159559

  28. #78
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    It is always good to see an old and newsworthy thread updated.

    Shame that they can't render unto Caesar.

  29. #79
    @ The House of Grimshaw pat grimshaw's Avatar
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    .

    This issue reminds of this old movie where a bloated Big Businessman bullies a small businessman telling him how to run his business and smashes up the business while he's at it.


  30. #80
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Sticking to their principles.

    No one want to be associated with their homophobia these days. Bad for business. These newspapers and ad places have to remember their bottom line. Well done for indirectly putting these horrid guesthouse owners down.


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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    I was hoping there would be a Supreme Court decision by now, but it appears the judgement was reserved and we must await Their Lordships' ruling.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24478295

  32. #82

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Hmmm that sounds like fascism to me.

    30 years ago feminists and Gay Liberationists were chanting in the streets

    'Get your laws off my body!'

    'Parliament has no right to stick their noses into my bedroom!'
    Hmmm "No jews" or "No blacks" sounds more like fascism to me. And so does "No gays"*

    *I realize the rule was not no gays, but let's get real here, would they even blink if they were a straight couple? Would they require proof of marriage? Likely not. And what if the gay couple was married in another country and had a proof of marriage? Would they accept them? Likely not. So they are discriminating based on sexual orientation. My question to you then is: Do you believe that laws that protect people from discrimination are too intrusive?

  33. #83
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    pat doesn't seem able to distinguish between law intruding intro people's lives and private businesses intruding into other people's lives.
    A "private business" which is open and, more importantly, dependant on other people, that is, a private business which in fact depends on the direct contact public sphere for its survival, is wickedly incoherent in claiming total freedom for itself but restricting that freedom to others. If they were a private club, silly discriminative associative rules might pass...

  34. #84
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by belamo View Post
    pat doesn't seem able to distinguish between law intruding intro people's lives and private businesses intruding into other people's lives.
    A "private business" which is open and, more importantly, dependant on other people, that is, a private business which in fact depends on the direct contact public sphere for its survival, is wickedly incoherent in claiming total freedom for itself but restricting that freedom to others. If they were a private club, silly discriminative associative rules might pass...
    It's a question of able or willing.

  35. #85
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It's a question of able or willing.
    Or simply disabled.

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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by belamo View Post
    Or simply disabled.
    Or Catholic.

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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Or Catholic.
    Or hunted and haunted.

  38. #88
    @ The House of Grimshaw pat grimshaw's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    All you haters could turn your grumpiness into action by burning these people's house down.


  39. #89
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Definitely Catholic, he's obsessed with burning people at the stake.

  40. #90
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    All you haters could turn your grumpiness into action by burning these people's house down.

    Oh, it looks great! We should turn it into an atheist gay disco, not burn it down!
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  41. #91
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Oh, it looks great! We should turn it into an atheist gay disco, not burn it down!
    What about the upstairs? An abortion clinic maybe?

  42. #92
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    I was hoping there would be a Supreme Court decision by now, but it appears the judgement was reserved and we must await Their Lordships' ruling.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24478295
    The Supreme Court has delivered its ruling. The appeal by Mr and Mrs Bull against the decision of the Court of Appeal was unanimously dismissed.

    Story:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25119158

    The full text of the judgement is here:

    http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2013/73.html

  43. #93
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Yaay! Hopefully the costs of taking their bigotry to the courts will be highly burdensome.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  44. #94
    @ The House of Grimshaw pat grimshaw's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Have you haters burnt down their house yet?


  45. #95
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Have you haters burnt down their house yet?

    Don't you remember? It got an extreme[ly] gay makevoer, this is how it looks now> http://www.orbitz.com//hotelimages/9...Exterior-4.jpg

  46. #96
    @ The House of Grimshaw pat grimshaw's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Oh Belamo! Are you suggesting the grumpy PC gays are angry at the humble English hotelier because they've taken on the American disease that hoteliers are expected to provide fantasy-palaces like the Dantes Cove hotel?




    I know this because I've read Jessica Mitford's expose of American hotels where americans who claim to believe in egalitarianism can go to hotels and be treated like dukes and duchesses and they can treat the staff like slaves.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Mitford

  47. #97
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Oh Belamo! Are you suggesting the grumpy PC gays are angry at the humble English hotelier because they've taken on the American disease that hoteliers are expected to provide fantasy-palaces like the Dantes Cove hotel?




    I know this because I've read Jessica Mitford's expose of American hotels where americans who claim to believe in egalitarianism can go to hotels and be treated like dukes and duchesses and they can treat the staff like slaves.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Mitford
    No

  48. #98
    @ The House of Grimshaw pat grimshaw's Avatar
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    The gays are being hardline, unempathetic bitches in this English instance.

    But claim to be completely empathetic loving people in another, such as this—
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/thre...63#post9210563

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