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  1. #1
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Another landmark case in which Christians using their religion as a front for bigotry and discrimination have been held to have broken the law.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12215255

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12214012

    Why not let them know what you think. The hotel website is here:

    http://www.chymorvah.co.uk/

    and includes this statement:

    "Here at Chymorvah we have few rules, but please note that as Christians we have a deep regard for marriage (being the union of one man to one woman for life to the exclusion of all others).

    Therefore, although we extend to all a warm welcome to our home, our double bedded accommodation is not available to unmarried couples. Thank you."


    which is exactly what landed them in court in the first place. Bastards!

  2. #2
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Another landmark case in which Christians using their religion as a front for bigotry and discrimination have been held to have broken the law.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12215255

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12214012
    And, of course, the Daily Heil is decrying it as yet another example of the erosion of morality.

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  3. #3
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    I believe they were right to stand up for what they believe in. They clearly state on their website that the room is only for married couples and tells of their christian belief, so the gay couple were already pre warned. I bet they went there on purpose just so they could do this. The couple said it would be the same for a straight unmarried couple.

  4. #4
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by sexualdemon View Post
    I believe they were right to stand up for what they believe in. They clearly state on their website that the room is only for married couples and tells of their christian belief, so the gay couple were already pre warned. I bet they went there on purpose just so they could do this. The couple said it would be the same for a straight unmarried couple.
    My question in this regard is what about married couples that don't take on each others surnames. Would they force them to provide proof that they were married?
    All we want is a headrush, all we want is to get out of our skins for a while.

  5. #5
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by sexualdemon View Post
    I believe they were right to stand up for what they believe in. They clearly state on their website that the room is only for married couples and tells of their christian belief, so the gay couple were already pre warned. I bet they went there on purpose just so they could do this. The couple said it would be the same for a straight unmarried couple.
    The law in the UK says that people providing a service to the public (such as hoteliers) may not discriminate on the grounds of sexuality. The law also says that a civil partnership is the legal equivalent of marriage.

    It follows that a hotel can theoretically say that its double rooms are only for legally married couples. In this case, however, they're saying they're only for legally married heterosexual couples and that's allowed. I'd be happy to bet that they don't ask to see a marriage certificate before handing over a key and that, in practice, the rooms are only for heterosexuals whether married or not.

    I'm afraid I don't believe they're doing this for religious reasons. There are thousands of other Christian hoteliers who don't discriminate. The Archbishops of Canterbury and York have not defended them from their pulpits. This is homophobia plain and simple, dressed up as something else to try to make it more acceptable.

    What this case has shown is that if a persons religious beliefs conflict with their legal obligations, it's the law which takes precedence. If someone can't handle that, they're in the wrong line of business.

  6. #6
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Good news!

    Cute couple, too..





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  7. #7
    Got my mojo back Alan's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    If they were inviting people to their private home to sleep over then they've every right to lay down the ground rules.

    But, if they are running a business in the UK, they can NOT discriminate on the sexuality of the guests that stay in their hotel.

    Simple as that really.

    So, good result in my opinion.
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  8. #8
    Boondem
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Haha, oh my.. I just checked the hotel website, and it's about 45/50 minutes from where I live!





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  9. #9

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Things to consider:

    1. It's their business.
    2. It's their business inside their home.
    3. I believe them when they say they only wanted married couples of opposite sex, as in they would not allow unmarried opposite sex couples.

    It's their right to serve who they want in their family business anyway, assholes for looking down on us or not.

    I support them.

  10. #10
    Boondem
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case


    Quote Originally Posted by Kensei View Post
    Things to consider:

    1. It's their business.
    2. It's their business inside their home.
    3. I believe them when they say they only wanted married couples of opposite sex, as in they would not allow unmarried opposite sex couples.

    It's their right to serve who they want in their family business anyway, assholes for looking down on us or not.

    I support them.
    Take a read of this quote mate, because you are quite incorrect:

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    The law in the UK says that people providing a service to the public (such as hoteliers) may not discriminate on the grounds of sexuality. The law also says that a civil partnership is the legal equivalent of marriage..





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  11. #11
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    providing they have an ethical reason for not serving whoever they want, otherwise its just pure discrimination and unacceptable in the eyes of the law.
    Even if a person has an ethical reason for refusal, it may still be unlawful. The law is clear on what's not allowed.

  12. #12

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    I remember an identical case from last year where a man and his illiterate husband were refused accommodation in an English in-home-hostel (at Oxford?) with a quaint name like Dutch Cottage.

  13. #13
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    I remember an identical case from last year where a man and his illiterate husband were refused accommodation in an English in-home-hostel (at Oxford?) with a quaint name like Dutch Cottage.
    I don't remember that case. I'd try Google, but searching on "gay" and "cottage" will probably not bring up the right result.

  14. #14

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    I thought it was a political stunt.

    'The couple' seemed to me to be an articulate politico and a monosyllabic, sleazy oaf with ear-rings which looked like Mursi plates.

    It was just before the election so I assumed it was a planned entrapment for political PR purposes

  15. #15
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    If it was a planned entrapment, they must have been police officers.

  16. #16

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    If it was a planned entrapment, they must have been police officers.
    I am using the word 'entrapment' in the sense that I suspect they were Laborites who deliberately chose an hotel who was likely to refuse service to them in order to create a media scandal during the election campaign.

  17. #17
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    I am using the word 'entrapment' in the sense that I suspect they were Laborites who deliberately chose an hotel who was likely to refuse service to them in order to create a media scandal during the election campaign.
    It's hard to see why they would want to do that during an election campaign, particularly if you mean the UK General Election in 2010. All of the major political parties supported the equality legislation, so there was really nothing to be gained in terms of influencing voting patterns.

  18. #18

  19. #19
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    I'm not sure what those pieces actually prove.

    The first is a post-election report about who was to be minister for what. The second is about one particular candidate stepping out out of line and saying something which, as the article says, was contrary to party policy. The final piece is another story about a gay couple being refused a room. There have been a number of similar stories and there're essentially non-political given that all parties support the right to equality.

  20. #20

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    The Labour Party was desperate and engaging in a number of dirty-tricks during the campaign.

    They sent some apparatchiks to an old-fashioned hotel knowing they would be refused. They then could 'beat-it-up' to ensnare the conservatives.

    And they were successful.

  21. #21
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    So successful that Labour lost the election!

    Have you seen the story about the Labour MP who was stripped of his seat for lying about another candidate during the election?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11940564

  22. #22

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Yes. Elections show pollies as they really are. They are in a state of utter desperation at losing their raison d'etre— losing power, their income, their sense of importance.

    They will stop at nothing.

  23. #23

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    It's a small home-business just trying to exist.

    But a Big Brother Government descends from on high to impose their idealogy on to the running of their small home-business.

  24. #24
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    It's a small home-business just trying to exist.

    But a Big Brother Government descends from on high to impose their idealogy on to the running of their small home-business.
    If they broke the health and safety laws by having mouse droppings in the kitchen or a blocked fire escape, would you say that?

    The law's the law and they've broken it. The Equality Act is there to protect people like us Pat.

  25. #25
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by Kensei View Post
    Things to consider:

    1. It's their business.
    2. It's their business inside their home.
    3. I believe them when they say they only wanted married couples of opposite sex, as in they would not allow unmarried opposite sex couples.

    It's their right to serve who they want in their family business anyway, assholes for looking down on us or not.

    I support them.
    Then let a troll beat their wife and kids, as long as they are his wife and kids and he does it at his home. I believe them when they say it's a God-given right for them to do whatever they want with their property in their properties: it's the justification of all old spoilt brats who have never taught better and want to impose pathetic excuses for rules as their law.

  26. #26
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    It's a small home-business just trying to exist.

    But a Big Brother Government descends from on high to impose their idealogy on to the running of their small home-business.
    A Big Brother Government fighting against Big Brother Communities of the Damned trying to impose their own particular views on who is a better person and who is just one sorry godless thing.

  27. #27

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    If they broke the health and safety laws by having mouse droppings ...
    I wouldn't patronise their establishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    ...The Equality Act is there to protect people like us Pat.
    In this case, it's a small private enterprise that needs to be protected from a dogmatic big government (who's following a currently-fashionable ideology).

    I thoroughly sympathise with the manager in that Cookham case who was confronted by their extremely unsavoury-looking guest.

  28. #28

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Even if a person has an ethical reason for refusal, it may still be unlawful. The law is clear on what's not allowed.
    So what do you say to Lytton Strachey, Christopher Isherwood and all those Conscientous Objectors who chose to disobey the law.

  29. #29
    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    So what do you say to Lytton Strachey, Christopher Isherwood and all those Conscientous Objectors who chose to disobey the law.
    That's right: the law is not a commandment or a habit that you just follow, but the result of reflection, discussion and consensus... but just like you don't just wave law as something that must prevail about everything and everyone as if it was something meaningful in itself, independent of everything adn everyone who gives it sense, you just don't throw it down as if merely negating law was a law itself, or something meaningful above everything and everyone who does not agree with those who don't consider law as being valid without giving any reason supporting their objections.

  30. #30
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    So what do you say to Lytton Strachey, Christopher Isherwood and all those Conscientous Objectors who chose to disobey the law.
    That is quite possibly the most ludicrous response ever posted.

    To compare bigoted Christian hoteliers in this case to conscientious objectors is ridiculous enough, but please check your facts before citing "clever" examples. Lytton Strachey was excused enrolment in WW1 for health reasons and Isherwood spent WW2 a free man in the USA. Neither disobeyed any law.

  31. #31
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Everyone in British society enjoys equal protection of their right to live the way they choose within the law.

    But if your particular beliefs or actions unreasonably impinge on someone else's right to live the life that they do, then the law will find you in the wrong.

    That is exactly the issue at the heart of the B&B discrimination case.

    The Bulls said their double rooms were only for married couples - but Mr Hall and Mr Preddy, as civil partners, enjoy to all intents and purposes the same legal rights and protections as a married heterosexual couple.
    To the world you may be one person,but to one person you may be the world

  32. #32
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by kce24 View Post
    Everyone in British society enjoys equal protection of their right to live the way they choose within the law.

    But if your particular beliefs or actions unreasonably impinge on someone else's right to live the life that they do, then the law will find you in the wrong.

    That is exactly the issue at the heart of the B&B discrimination case.

    The Bulls said their double rooms were only for married couples - but Mr Hall and Mr Preddy, as civil partners, enjoy to all intents and purposes the same legal rights and protections as a married heterosexual couple.
    Exactly, their problem (sheer homophobia aside) derives simply from a personal interpretation of the law that it is NOT their business to make. That's why the law and the judges must be bothered to put them in their proper place.

    If they really didn't like that law and all its consequences, they should have opposed to it as they are doing in America: they are in Britain, that's how it works. They are just acting like typical Spaniards, who are indifferent when some law going again their own interests is being discussed, and when it's approved they are very upset and go whacko trying to revoke that about which they had not cared until they had it at their door.

  33. #33

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by asadoyayunta View Post
    That is quite possibly the most ludicrous response ever posted....
    Yours is quite possibly the most sophist response ever posted.

  34. #34

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by belamo View Post
    ...That's why the law and the judges must be bothered to put them in their proper place....
    Hmmm that sounds like fascism to me.

    30 years ago feminists and Gay Liberationists were chanting in the streets

    'Get your laws off my body!'

    'Parliament has no right to stick their noses into my bedroom!'

  35. #35
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Yours is quite possibly the most sophist response ever posted.
    You are spouting nonsense now. I give up.

  36. #36
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Hmmm that sounds like fascism to me.
    It would be fascist if it were just about an opinion, but those people you seem to take as some "activists" fighting for freedom of conscience are people making an interpretation of law according to their own interests. That's a road to fascism.
    People to whom this and that "sounds like" this and that are people who believe that being tone-deaf is no obstacle for tuning instruments if they want to tune instruments.
    If "it sounds" like fascism to you, you might start giving your ear a proper training.

  37. #37
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Yours is quite possibly the most sophist response ever posted.
    Like that were a bad thing, just like those for whom being gay or black have bad connotations expect you to be offended for being called what you are.
    When they are outwitted by rational arguments, their only response is that the opponent is acting like "a sophist".


  38. #38
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    The saddest part about this ridiculous episode is that rather than it removing another brick in the wall that separates gay and straight equality, it has done exactly the opposite.

    One group's rights have been achieved at the expense of another's. As a result, there is a very good chance that the hotel will now have to close, and the couple's dream will end.

    If, in this country, we have to make allowances for other religious beliefs, then the same should apply to Christianity. A compromise could have been written into much of our law regarding smaller businesses, as one size does not fit all in many areas.

    This isn't a victory, it's another one of those 'the world's gone mad' moments that distances many ordinary people from gay people (when they wouldn't normally have an axe to grind with gay people).

    I know it's a matter of principles, but I'm sorry, on this occasion, my personal view is that it's a case of one step forward... two steps back.

  39. #39
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by quasar View Post
    If, in this country, we have to make allowances for other religious beliefs, then the same should apply to Christianity.
    We don't allow other religions to break the law either.

    The big news stories about equality legislation have all involved religious objectors; the christian relationship counsellor who refused to council gay couples, the catholic adoption agencies refusing to place children with gay couples and now these hoteliers. Why should religious belief be justification for breaking the law?

    Can I open an hotel refusing hospitality to black people because the old testament condemns "the descendants of Ham" to "perpetual servitude"?

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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by quasar View Post
    A compromise could have been written into much of our law regarding smaller businesses, as one size does not fit all in many areas..
    The size of the business is entirely irrelevant. And don't believe all the stories about this "poor" couple potentially losing their business/home over this case. They are being funded and encouraged to pursue their pointless appeal by massively wealthy christian charities who one might have hoped could find better causes on which to lavish their funds.

  41. #41
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    quasar's thoughts are particularly British in their appeal to reason, moderation and consensus in addressing the conscience driven concerns of those people living according to their interpretation of religious principles.

    Nevertheless when the matter is one of discriminatory behaviour I do not believe that an opt out facility should be encouraged under any circumstances.

    I rather believe that there are very few bed and breakfast establishments in the UK which would not rent a room to a same gender couple as a result of the owner's religious principles.

    Those operating within the hospitality industry who are aghast at the result of this legal decision might well wish to consider alternative employment, or learn to live with the wishes of a nation that rejects such discriminatory behaviour as inhumane.

    I appreciate that quasar has made a subtle reference to Christianity being singled out, with Islam being a reminder of more extreme forms of discriminatory behaviour, that society would prefer not to deal with for fear of terrorist reactions. This may well be a fair observation.

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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    The Law is clear, A person concerned with the provision of a service to the public or a section of the public (for payment or not) must not discriminate against a person requiring the service by not providing the person with the service.
    And there appeal will fail the fact that they where in a civil partnership proved the case, had the B&B refused two single gay men a room with a double bed, as they do heterosexuals they may have one there case.
    To the world you may be one person,but to one person you may be the world

  43. #43

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by quasar View Post
    … A compromise could have been written into much of our law regarding smaller businesses, as one size does not fit all in many areas…
    There was a draconian law in my country which allowed anyone to subpoena and sue an employer if they terminated your employment for any reason.

    Our courts were clogged.

  44. #44
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    There was a draconian law in my country which allowed anyone to subpoena and sue an employer if they terminated your employment for any reason.

    Our courts were clogged.

    You have us at an advantage. Which country?

    I am fairly sure that those operating in the hospitality industry will not tempt fate by attempting to play smart now the matter has been settled.

    I appreciate that an appeal may overturn this decision.

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    Pococuranté belamo's Avatar
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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    quasar's thoughts are particularly British in their appeal to reason, moderation and consensus in addressing the conscience driven concerns of those people living according to their interpretation of religious principles.

    Nevertheless when the matter is one of discriminatory behaviour I do not believe that an opt out facility should be encouraged under any circumstances.

    I rather believe that there are very few bed and breakfast establishments in the UK which would not rent a room to a same gender couple as a result of the owner's religious principles.

    Those operating within the hospitality industry who are aghast at the result of this legal decision might well wish to consider alternative employment, or learn to live with the wishes of a nation that rejects such discriminatory behaviour as inhumane.

    I appreciate that quasar has made a subtle reference to Christianity being singled out, with Islam being a reminder of more extreme forms of discriminatory behaviour, that society would prefer not to deal with for fear of terrorist reactions. This may well be a fair observation.
    quasar's appeal makes better sense in countries like Spain, where rights are gained by decree and imposition by one government, without any real consensus, with a great deal of general indifference or laziness among the bulk of the population, and a very strong group, even if actually a minority, opposing those rights.

    What quasar shows reflects the real state of things to which I often make reference, to wit, that outside the USA, and to some degree in Britain, there is a deep mentality that people take as the real norm and truth, even in those Western countries taking themselves for thoroughly modern, democratic, Western countries, a mentality which takes as the basis of their societies and culture the same principles that prevail in countries they despise as barbarians and anti-Western: a prevalence of old, stale, rigid, simplistic religious prejudices and morals, valued above the capacity of democracy and law to realities that those morals and prejudices won't accept in the first place, much less deal with them.
    Since people lived for centuries with prejudiced morals based on religion, and while Modern Western law and science, just a few centuries old, reveal themselves as not providing the magic solve-it-all power that people expect from them and they just want to feel safe again without caring for "complexities" removed from their own interests, it is only a matter of time to return to "good ol'" morals and obscurities, a dangerously simplistic civilization idealized as perfectly simple.
    Of course that exists, rampantly, in the USA, but to prevail first they have to bowdlerize the laws and leave just the titles: Constitution, Bill of Rights... and to relaunch America just like John Smith relaunched Christianity with a totally different content under the same name, according to their own righteousness and prejudices of what is fascist, what is evil, un-American...

    In that, the help of the supposed liberal, progressive, open-minded or whatever will be priceless when their defense is in fact so much like the attacks, so that for people simply used to a state of things without being aware of where it comes from and what it means, won't be able to tell, under all the word banding what is being a real "fascist" imposition of the law and what is an attempt to topple law to impose a true "fascist" society.

  46. #46

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    It seems just a short time ago there were lots of Angry Young Men with long hair and pugnacious attitudes declaring they were Rebels and Sexual Outlaws!.

    Now, they are middle-aged and quite respectable!

    Quote Originally Posted by ~~~
    … The Law is clear…
    Quote Originally Posted by ~~
    … The law's the law…

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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by belamo View Post
    quasar's appeal makes better sense in countries like Spain, where rights are gained by decree and imposition by one government, without any real consensus, with a great deal of indifference and a very strong group, even if actually a minority, opposing those rights.
    What quasar shows reflects the real state of things to which I often make reference, to wit, that outside the USA, and to some degree in Britain, there is a deep mentality that people take as the real norm and truth, even in those Western countries taking themselves for thoroughly modern, democratic, Western countries, a mentality which takes as the basis of their societies and culture the same principles that prevail in countries they despise as barbarians and anti-Western: a prevalence of old, stale, rigid, simplistic religious prejudices and morals, valued above the capacity of democracy and law to realities that those morals and prejudices won't accept in the first place, much less deal with them.
    Since people lived for centuries with prejudiced morals based on religion, and while Modern Western law and science, just a few centuries old, reveal themselves as not providing the magic solve-it-all power that people expect from them and they just want to feel safe again without caring for "complexities" removed from their own interests, it is only a matter of time to return to "good ol'" morals and obscurities, a dangerously simplistic civilization idealized as perfectly simple.
    On the contrary the United Kingdom is the definitive example of a society that attempts to legislate its social inter relationships with an eye on consensus, rather than by the dictates of government operating by conviction.

  48. #48

    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    You have us at an advantage. Which country?…
    I'm not fighting. I think we gay men can try a little moderation. We can be a little gracious now that we, at long last, are in favour with the powerbrokers.

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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    I'm not fighting. I think we gay men can try a little moderation. We can be a little gracious now that we, at long last, are in favour with the powerbrokers.
    I am attempting to relate to your comments on employment legislation that prompted an avalanche of lawsuits that clogged the courts.

    Is my question so difficult to answer?

    Knowing the name of your country will assist me to better appreciate your point.

    Moderation is the foundation of a harmonious society.

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    Re: UK Gay Couple Win Discrimination Case

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    It seems just a short time ago there were lots of Angry Young Men with long hair and pugnacious attitudes declaring they were Rebels and Sexual Outlaws!.

    Now, they are middle-aged and quite respectable!
    They are holding the power now... what pissed the so-called "conservative" is not so much the principles that they don't accept, as the fact of lacking the effective power to trample and smother them.

    It is never about the ideas, the principles, what is "right", at least not ultimately so, maybe only as a beginning... in the end, it's power and the course of life of individuals exerting power and of regimes leading towards settlement, security, and the power that you need to achieve and preserve them, what drives societies.

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