Honestly, I don't give a good god damn who you are, about your life, about your credentials, or any of that other bullshit. We are on the internet, home of opinions. And guess what. NOT ALL OF THEM WILL AGREE WITH YOU.
I did not attack you, but because I disagreed with you, your own insecurity prompted you to think otherwise.
In my opinion the DUDE IS GAY as far as the TV show goes. That is MY opinion and I am entitled to MY opinion just like you are entitled to YOUR opinion. I will also challenge other opinions (just as mine have been) and I expect folks to disagree with me. It happens.
At the end of the day, unless you PERSONALLY know the show's creators and what their intentions are for the characters (not what you heard or were sent from your friend, because stuff changes by the second on set and in production) then, in reality, you DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING AS FACT. You know some. Stop acting otherwise.
TLDR: At the end of the day, unless you PERSONALLY know the show's creators and what their intentions are for the characters (not what you heard or were sent from your friend, because stuff changes by the second on set and in production) then, in reality, you DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING AS FACT. You know some. Stop acting otherwise.
STLDR: You DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING AS FACT. You know some. Stop acting otherwise.
If you look at my first response it's very clear that I was merely giving my own opinion but when your hostile reply to my opinion was a second entry DRIPPING with condescension I openly admit that I elevated my diction to less than subtly match your own patronizing tone in a bitchy fashion (call me a sucker for Newton's Third Law). Yet in this measure I took pains to make it clear that I felt my evaluation was open to debate and that the answer to such a question would ultimately be relative. This stands in contrast to what you now refer to as your "opinion" which you initially treated a fact, go so far as attempting to shame Jared for asking the question, implying he was ignorant and that anyone who knew anything about Crowley MUST know that because you never really bothered to look beyond the surface.
But as to prove that I am not guilty of the crime I accuse you of here are some pertinent quotes from my response. Bolding added for emphasis.
Side note for interested parties: message boards are apparently a wonderful way to relieve pent up aggression resulting from stressful last minute travel delays.
Not gonna continue with you because we could go all night, and believe me when I say that I could. I feed off people like you. It gets me off
But now that I'm over you, it was fun while it lasted. Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.
I'm surprised this turned into a big issue. I thought it was pretty clear Crowley was gay. Him having a child made no difference. Countless closeted homosexuals have fathered children.
I don't wanna start another fight but falconfan does seem to be overzealous about refuting most homoerotic undertones on this show. The truth is none of us are the writers of the show. So it is impossible for anyone to know for sure.
Everyone interprets certain elements to a story differently based on their own experiences. That's the beauty of shows like Supernatual and even Buffy. The monsters and demons on these shows can represent everyone's personal struggles, even sexual identity.
Being so quick to discount the possibility of homosexual under/overtones on this show tbh seems a bit homophobic.
I thought I pointed out rather lucidly based on a thorough analysis of the show that demons as portrayed in this universe seem to lack an innate sexual drive and therefore a sexuality aswell. I just cannot think of an instance when one exhibited sexual behavior without an ulterior motive. There are other supernatural elements in this world that seem to have sexuality and sexual drive, most prominent being the Shifters who are singularly driven by some superficial desire, in Skin it seemed to be solely sexual gratification. Angels as Jared pointed out seem to be capable of growing into a sexual desire. Gabriel and Kali being the most notable and interesting case. But to me in the Supernatural universe I don't see homosexuality as any eloquent symbolism drawn out throughout the series especially not with demons. And if there was one I think it would come through Ruby far more than Crowley. After all you'd argue that Sam was born drawn to her but was condemned by his family and religion. My problem is if human/demon relationships are a metaphor for same sex relations is that the show has a rather bleak opinion of homosexuality which is not reflected in it's drawing of actual homosexuality.
To me demons seem to stand more for selfishness and sadism in this particular universe. I think the snow sets up a continuum from angel to demon with human in the middle. Angels who indulge become more human and humans who over indulge become self-centered assholes and their impulses are only reinforced by the pleasure they derive from seeing the pain their selfishness causes. Which is why Dean's perpetual altruistic self sacrifice is despised universally by demons and why Sam's ultimate sacrifice is symbolic of him literally overcoming the strongest of all demons.
This would be contrary to this a show like True Blood or a series like X-men where I think there are some pretty obvious parallels to homosexuality that hint at metaphor and symbolism. In short I think I was in fact thorough in my analysis and frank about myself in my analysis of my analysis but I'd hardly call it "overzealous" didn't come until two days after the thread was contributed and after I'd submitted a much shorter reply already. I think my diatribe was quite clearly a distasteful (yet accurate) response to being spoken down to. But hey who am I to say that.... maybe I just am homophobic because I think sexual actions can be driven by something other than raw sexual impulse.
As per Crowley re: wife and kids. My interpretation of the character is that he was a poor, unhappy, heterosexual married male who lead a rather unremarkable life went to hell. Got the humanity stripped from him and in the process had his entire mind twisted his limitations exponentially blown and upon detecting that the homophobia of modern American men makes the conventional deal sealing kiss make them extremely uncomfortable (notably more uncomfortable than SELLING THEIR FRICKIN SOUL) dwells on it because he feeds off their discomfort. But again entirely open to interpretation there's nothing to preclude the possibility he was homosexual and repressed as a human, don't really have sufficient info.
Also glad to know I could get you off, sweetheart
Having never been a fan of Supernatural, I am merely drawing a few conclusions here, but...
I'm assuming the Crowley character you speak of is based on, "the wickedest man in the world", Aleister Crowley, the English occultist with a rather risque historical reputation, also known for being a bisexual.
There's also this incredibly horrible, barely soft-core, film about the same man visiting present-day America to sodomize the "constricting orifices" of young men and women, initiate orgies, and turn it all over to satan.
Just a hunch, but I thought it might settle some of your questions.
I think Arpeggi has given us the definitive answer to this one. He did it with fact not opinion, kinda rare on JUB.
I can't think of a single counterpoint and will never be able to admit that I am an aggressive person who came across as an aggressive person, who then wrote as an aggressive person to make it look like I won.
But how can I win something I never entered? I was trying to have a constructive talk. We had a disagreement that suddenly became some sort of competition to be won. So if it's what you want to hear, then here you go.
You are the winner.
I am the loser who deserves to have his tongue ripped out and his mouth stitched shut for even daring to have an opinion that differs from anyone else's in the world. And how DARE I defend my position when challenged!
As a general observation, gay men do tend to project their sexuality onto others, especially if there is the slightest chance of it being true. Note all of the "X is gay!" threads, usually based on how cute the guy is. Crowley isn't gay; he doesn't sleep with men because he wants to, he does it because it's part of his job. Weird way of looking at it perhaps, but he does get some satisfaction by messing with straight men's heads; that little satisfaction doesn't really count. I think a better argument could be made that he's asexual, but that's me.
Did you notice the two little words at the beginning of my post: "I THINK"?
Are you claiming to know that that's not what I think?
Here it is: ALL MY OPINION:
The name "Crowley is not inherited. It's not randomly chosen. It was selected by a screenwriter for a reason. The fact that the name "Crowley" is very unusual and so definitely associated with hedonism and bisexuality and the fact that the Supernatural character exhibits hedonistic and bisexual traits is, in my mind, too great a link to be coincidence. Even the admittedly less than authoritative Wikipedia site says that the Supernatural "Crowley" is named for the Brit eccentric. All this is enough to convince me. Of course, your mileage may vary.
I've encountered the real Crowley's name and data on occasion, but was always put off by what looked like very stuffy pics from what to me is a very stuffy and boring period in British history. I've never known anything about him till now except that he got fat as he aged and was prone to wear silly hats. I always considered him a kind of "Monty Python twit".
1) One would hope that is was your opinion. It is generally assumed, after all. Read: I get that it's your opinion; I just don't need to see why I need to waste verbage on recognizing that it's your opinion.
By the same token, Arpeggi did not express any facts, just his opinion that since Crowley (the fictional character) had to have to the same sexual preference as Crowley (the person) simply because they---get this---merely share the same name. Now, show me a study that shows that 100% of fictional characters share the same sexual preferences as the person whose name they share, and that's a fact.
I was going to put down your post to misunderstood sarcasm, and apologize, but then you backed it up...
2) I'm not arguing that the name was chosen for any number of allusions to it. Writers do it all the time, usually in order to foster some sort of association with the person being alluded to. Aleister Crowley, after all, did have some charm and remains an interesting occult figure, especially with his then reputation as "wickedest man alive". That is not at issue.
My problem, specifically, is that Crowley (the demon) does not need to have the same sexual preference (or lack thereof ) as the real person he is named after. In essence, I'm not seeing that simply being named after a person gives a fictional character that person's sexual preferences. Rather, I'm debating if Crowley (the fictional character) as actually ever shown a true sexual preference, or if he simply goes with what he perceives will give him the greatest advantage in the situation. More to the point, as has been pointed out rather eloquently, it can rather reasonably argued he has not been shown to have any sexual preference, as we have not really seen him in any kind of actual relationship post-demonic transformation. In fact, the only times we've seen him do anything sexual is when he gets something out of it.
Show me an actual relationship that Crowley has had, a romantic one, and I'll change my mind...
The reason I did it is because I think that what almost always ruins these threads is a lack of civility (not that you would ever be guilty of such). The discussions could be interesting but get bogged down in petty differences. I believe that the phrasing used in the posts make it seem as if one poster is belittling the views of another.
I really have no great desire to change your mind. I think your view is valid. I just disagree.
On the other hand:
SoloHero: Dude: Seriously? Obviously you've never been a hard-core fan of something or you would understand that these are fun for anyone with a heart....
On the matter of Crowley's name the show is RIFE with allusions but they rarely if ever are drawn in a one to one fashion. Lilith for instance certainly shares strong similarities to the Lilith of biblical lore but I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that she is Adam's first wife as she is in Hebrew Lore. Likewise the biblical Azazel was the literal father of a race of half demons/half humans but in the Supernatural universe his fathering seemed only in a more symbolic sense.
Also Crowley is actually named Fergus MacLeod, the more familiar name is a pseudonym chosen to hide his identity.
this one is hot ! ... I can't stop staring at it
Oh God They're So Damn Hot!
Really enjoy the show. Netflix'd it from the beginning.
"If you can't do something smart,do something right."-Jayne Cobb
both guys very different.... why are people always comparing one against another... you could like both or dislike both or like one.. but what does that mean? Both nice looking lads, nothing special...
I just recently started watching this show on Netflix. A few weeks later, I had already watched the first six seasons. This show is incredibly addicting, and yes, Jared and Jensen are both INCREDIBLY hot!
i don't think any one of us would turn either of them away. well, i know i wouldn't.
Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being
governed by those who are dumber.
~Plato, ancient Greek Philosopher
I might turn down Padalecki (beautiful body, but not too keen on the face), but I'd crawl through barbed wire to get at Ackles.
um um give me some, me too, padalecki's body (if it is as nice as it looks) makes me want to lick him in all the right places
Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being
governed by those who are dumber.
~Plato, ancient Greek Philosopher
Jensen Ackles, he is sooo hot and his bad boy style turns me on completely. Also that playmate girl that had a relationship with him said in one of her interviews that he is THE fucker....
Last edited by greekboylovesdaddies; December 7th, 2012 at 07:09 PM. Reason: Because Im a bitch that's why!
I like jareds body but his face...some days it turns me on...most days not so much
I've met both guys and in person, Jared is absolutely gorgeous. You just want to stand and stare at him. Plus he's a total sweetheart (and gives awesome hugs)
Jensen is a nice guy but sort of shy.
Jared is definitely much more outgoing you can tell just by the interviews they do and the way they interact with fans. Jensen doesn't have a twitter account and has mentioned loving filming in Vancouver because it offers more privacy. He's always seemed a little skiddish about his obsessive following. Honestly his need for privacy is one of the reasons I think rumors of him being closeted might be accurate (of course the fact he was a cheerleader in high school also helps me believe it... and also that I want it to be true :P)
1. Soap. Ha ha, sorry, not too exciting there. (But he was talking and hugged me around my neck and my face was under in his underarm and I could smell his pits. Still smelled very clean)
2. He's very outgoing and just jumps right on you without hesitation (if only). Very warm and very very solid.
3. Nope. Not sure how he'd feel about that. And he's a big dude.
4. Yes! He had on black Fruit of the Loom briefs (or boxer briefs. Could be either). He was telling a story and reach in the air and they were peaking out.
Last edited by curiousinmotown2; December 11th, 2012 at 05:27 AM.
A recent Season 9 promo pic of Jared & Jensen
Image will be a lot bigger if opened in a new window
On tonight's episode there's a great scene of Sam and Castiel hugging each other for a few beats. Very homoerotic.
I become weak when Jensen looks at me
Very dapper both of them. Jared would destroy Jensen