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  1. #1
    Sex God andy12's Avatar
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    Where are the men?

    Over a year ago, I had my very first boyfriend. It look a long time: I never really felt as effeminate as the gays I always saw, I was also busy with other life matters, couldn't get over a guy, etc. Anyways, he looked androgynous and was effeminate, a very good-looking combination. As it turned out, I had zero problems with accepting his effeminacy. We held hands everywhere; it was more than obvious that we were a couple. We even made out in public. It felt sort of revolutionary.

    However, it felt like having a girlfriend. He'd want to fix his hair for an hour before going out. He only wanted to go to dinner or shopping. The way he thought reminded me of my mother. He wanted to talk about feelings in that emotional crazy way.

    I'm physically attracted to women. Lesbian porn (no dicks) can be pretty hot. However, I'm not into the whole straight mating dance. It looks degrading when men try to impress women. I don't want kids, I don't need to split the bills with anyone, and I can cook and clean just fine. So heterosexuality has nothing to offer me. I feel like a 12-year-old boy around women as well. I don't know what to say and I can't feign interest for long in whatever they want to talk about. That Whole Thing (TM) is not for me.

    I want somebody like me. A guy who likes guy stuff. I want a man in bed for the same reason I want a man to toss a football with. A want to fuck men for the same reason boys play with guns and legos. So it's definitely not just sex, it's an integral part of me. It sure doesn't feel like just a sexual orientation. Why shouldn't I like what I am?

    But I haven't seen that anywhere. What passes for masculine among gay guys is a mimicry of masculine, a sort of cargo cult that doesn't understand the essence of what it deifies. Whether it's leather or just guys who aren't as effeminate, it seems like fake dress up.

    Take Johnny Weir who says this about figure skating: "masculinity is what you believe it to be." When gay guys tell me that they don't want to go kayaking or outdoors because of the icky bugs then no, sorry, you're not masculine. And that's not to say masculine is better! (I can understand the resentment: There's plenty of gay men who haven't come to terms with their own effeminacy who bash on the nelly folk.) So I believe masculinity and femininity are neutral but distinguishable traits like eye color. If you want to gay it up, go for it. I'm not one of those "You drag queens are making it hard for me to be accepted!" people. Everyone has a right to be who they are without being made to feel worthless. (Unfortunately, I think our society values men above women so even effeminate men want some of that masculinity.)

    I asked my boyfriend why he didn't like women. He sure loved hanging around them. He could talk to them easily without any awkwardness. The answer: "Ewww, I'd feel like a lesbian." And that's really it: gay men seem to be women. Pretty much all the gays I've met confirm to the stereotypes. Not everyone is the same kind of effeminate, but some variant exists in all the men I've seen. Online, it's pretty much the same thing. I've asked friends, gay or straight. They don't know anyone either. Now, I'm not looking for a date: just someone like me to know I'm not the only one.

    I don't feel gay. I've always felt this way, even though I couldn't articulate it. Around puberty when I noticed other guys fawning over women, despite my attractions to women, I never understood how liking effeminate could be masculine. I like men because I'm a man. I'm a genuine homo.

    So where are the others like me?

  2. #2
    Lascivious Lush altlover85's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    I think most people have a blend of feminine and masculine traits.

    If you found the perfect guy, but he happened to like shopping, would it really be the end of the world? Your bf is always going to like to do things that you don't like to do.

    You seem like a smart man. I think you should try and be just a little more open-minded and not draw such a line about masculinity and femininity.

    I have a feeling that if we went through your hobbies, we could find something that's not totally masculine. For example, Gore Vidal isn't a paragon of masculinity but you still have an admiration for him I would assume. I know that's not the same as wanting to date him, but there have to be some feminine traits that you could live with in an otherwise masculine guy.

  3. #3
    nerd of prey hylas's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    ( deleted )
    Last edited by hylas; October 4th, 2010 at 03:02 PM. Reason: i decided that my post was too pissed off for a no-flame zone

  4. #4
    panegyric JUB Moderator Corny's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    ^ yeah. it is difficult to reply to this thread and stay civil.

    you insult pretty much everyone with your post.

    there are a lot of masculine gay men out there. many of them maybe more "masculine" than i would see you know.

    sadly there are also a few out there with the same attitude like you.

    maybe you have only met gay men that confirm the stereotype because you are somehow attracted to them? ever thought about that?
    Check out my very own Body Hair Lovers and Photography Groups!

  5. #5
    Porn Star Echoes's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    could you provide a better explanation of what's for you the masculine super macho man (as you surely are) you're looking for?
    I mean only to see who could possibly fit in that category.

    sigh.

  6. #6
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    Re: Where are the men?

    well if you want, you can spend the rest of your life crushing on heterosexual men and their oozing manliness, have fun!

  7. #7
    Slut Greenherbz's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    andy12, I feel yuh

  8. #8
    JUB Addict Audio Tech's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    So where are the others like me?
    Well, I am sort of like you.... so they (we) are out there. I like typical guy stuff, bugs and all.

    Hang in there.

  9. #9
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    Re: Where are the men?

    OP, are you implying masculine homosexuals such as myself don't exist?
    I assure you, it's not a game. We're quite real.

    You and you alone misunderstand the essence of masculinity.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    despite my attractions to women, I never understood how liking effeminate could be masculine.
    Am I the only one who saw this as a jarring contradiction?

    If liking the effeminate is not masculine, and you are attracted to women (who are presumably somewhat effeminate), are you not implictly admitting that you aren't 100% masculine?

    To my mind, that would place you in this category: "Not everyone is the same kind of effeminate, but some variant exists in all the men I've seen."

  11. #11
    JUB Addict BlondeCanadian's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    I have been reading this for a couple minutes now thinking how to respond.

    I think that all that the OP was trying to say is that he hasn't been able to find a completely masculine gay men.

    I don't think that there is such a thing as someone being completely masculine everyone is prone to some traits that someone would consider feminine. Perhaps you are a little caught up on it and just put more intense scrutiny to the gay guys you have met. I bet you that if we were to intensely critique you we would be able to find something feminine in you..

  12. #12
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    Re: Where are the men?

    I don't think the OP is being offensive—I think some people are not understanding him entirely.

    I am like the OP in that I want to be with men, but I've never identified as gay, entirely. I think that is a legitimate position to have, to say you want the company of men, but not for sexual reasons, for a reason that is different. I'd almost say that the OP is saying for him being with a man is something innate he wants like a magnet rather than something specific like sexuality. It makes sense to me. The thoughts that follow relate a bit, but are a bit rambling and were hard to get out in a logical way. But if you have the patience:

    I have always thought the same thing as the OP--that it's strange to me that we think of straight men as butch/masculine yet they are the ones that end up with a feminine woman. Reminds me of a line from Strangers with Candy episode called Invisible Love, "Having a girlfriend is gay. I'm gonna go take a dump with my friends." It seems like straight men for the most part will marry a woman and live the rest of their lives with her, having sex somewhat infrequently, in a doily-decorated house. I know that's a horrible stereotype, but it's just the image that comes to my mind when I think of the contradiction of the "more masculine" of the two sexual orientations settling down with a wife. I used to think wouldn't a really butch man think that a woman was "too gay" (as ironic as the wording is)?

    I also found it annoying that I who was sensitive as a child and quite meek compared to other boys but got along well with girls ended up with the identity of gay as that seemed terrifying when I was perfectly happy getting along with girls. And it was straight boys who had always hated the idea of girls that then wanted them. And the idea of being gay always seemed much scarier than a straight life; like that gay guys as adults were not as sensitive or meek but rather edgier and my imagination was filled with guys in dives having one night stands while on drugs, etc, versus the picture of a happy married straight couple, which seemed safer and less scary. I essentially did not want to be gay, but had thoughts and worries I was. I still don't know what the hell I am.

    My sexuality is also hard to articulate, but I feel similar to the OP. From sixth grade on, I was nervous around other guys and avoided them mostly (except for my strange group of friends who defied any normal definition of identity). And now as I am older, I have always just wanted to be around other regular guys. I don't have a strong lust toward sex with men, definitely none toward women. I have always felt confused in that it's hard for me to determine if I want to be like or be with the men I admire. My carnal sexuality is very weak, and it's mostly about fetishes unrelated to sex at all (jockstraps, spanking). It essentially comes down to incidental nudity or incidental sexuality among men who would otherwise be straight, such as spanking (there presumably could be a legitimate reason for nudity there), wrestling, locker rooms and jockstraps, etc. It's what I call incidental sexual familiarity in otherwise nonsexual environments. As a child I was afraid of such familiarity, and never experienced it. But it's not that I want to make it sexual now, but it is somewhat sexual now on its own. I feel though if I experienced those things, familiarity with other males in incidentally sexual ways, the sexual appeal of it would diminish. I'm not sure though.

    But, the men (usually actors)I am "attracted" to never figure into my fantasies. I never look at sexual acts or men themselves and get aroused. It's difficult for me to tell whether I want to be like those actors or be with them or both. In that way, I am different from the OP, in that although I am masculine and not effeminate in my speech, I don't consider myself a hardy, stocky man's man—I more want to be that and be with people like that. I'm a little bit clueless and have a lot of anxiety. But in terms of personality, I would say I am masculine. I'm definitely low maintenance (I don't like that term, but can't think of another). You could say I am Woody Allen like (not in appearance). Maybe Larry David like is a better comparison (also not in appearance).

    I would love just to be around other guys mostly. I really didn't fit in during school, except for one summer at a summer camp and I was around other "regular" guys like me, guys who liked sports but weren't great, who were intellectuals like me but not insanely competitive. It was just a comfortable group of friends, which was never my school experience where to be on a sports team you had to be a superstar, and amongst my "friends" academics were cutthroat competition to be valedictorian starting in sixth grade. It just was never fun. I was never around normal, regular, sane in the middle people. I just like the idea of hanging around guys, and I sexualize the idea somewhat, but I think I would just enjoy it for what it was if I could have it. Sort of like what I didn't have growing up. And I know that's what a lot of the conversion groups push—but I am not promoting that or saying that's why people are gay.

    I am very open to whatever I am. Believe me, I am very progressive. I am open to the idea that I am subconsciously repressed, too. I am open to anything. But nothing clear has ever presented itself to me as my sexual identity.

  13. #13
    Lascivious Lush altlover85's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by onetwothreefour View Post
    I don't think the OP is being offensive—I think some people are not understanding him entirely.

    I am very open to whatever I am. Believe me, I am very progressive. I am open to the idea that I am subconsciously repressed, too. I am open to anything. But nothing clear has ever presented itself to me as my sexual identity.
    I think the OP is not being offensive, but his words could be construed as such. Sometimes honesty isn't what others want to hear and may reveal (or seem to reveal) things about someone. For example, the OP could be seen as somewhat misogynistic, but I don't sense that he actually is.

    As far as you go one, I think you probably are sexually repressed, but if it's not bothering you too much, I wouldn't worry about it. If it ever does bother you, go see a counselor and have him or her help you sort out how you feel and what your desires are. What's encouraging is that you are open-minded.

    As far as your straight fantasy goes, I think couples have different dynamics, but people may buckle to societal pressures and therefore certain patterns (such as the woman being more in charge of the design of the house) may emerge due to expected gender roles. I think this is more likely in straight relationships due to the fact that they probably don't think about gender as much as non-straight people. This is just a theory, of course.

    I hope you find happiness at some point in terms of a relationship. Good luck!

  14. #14
    The gay gargoyle G-Lexington's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?



    I'd like to consider myself "masculine".

    I've got a low voice.
    I don't like shopping.
    I listen to rock music.
    I wear T-shirts and jeans 350 days a year.
    I have season tickets to a contact sport.
    All that stuff.

    But I don't think I'd be interested in you. Not because you're not feminine. Not because you're "real". But because you have this sense of detachment and superiority. That somehow everybody else is faking it, but you're the "real" homosexual of the group. I'm having "g0y" flashbacks.

    And that sense of entitlement and superiority, in my mind, is about as "faggy" a trait as any. In he most negative sense.

    Lex

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    Re: Where are the men?

    I can def relate to the OP's feelings. His views on relationships with women ring true, as do many guys seemingly revisionist definitions of being masculine. My friends have long jokingly said that I'm not really gay, I'm just a straight guy who's into other guys instead of girls. Andy, I can assure you that us out doorsy, car repairing, xbox playing, rock listening, shopping hating, fashion blind homos are out here. Where to find us? well when you find out lemme know.

  16. #16
    Porn Star Echoes's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    I'd like to be consider "masculine" too.

    I dress like any other regular "masculine" man does (love jeans)
    I listen to rock music (Pink Floyd is my favorite)
    I'm into sports, specially football
    I don't think my voice sounds soft at all
    I love beer and watching football matches
    I do hate shopping but once in a while I need to get some stuff. So I'm sorry that makes me a sissy.

    anyway I just hope to fit in the "masculine" category some day. I guess I will just have to give up my attraction to arts and my attempts for making my place look tidy.

    regards.

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    Slut Greenherbz's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
    I'd like to be consider "masculine" too.

    I dress like any other regular "masculine" man does (love jeans)
    I listen to rock music (Pink Floyd is my favorite)
    I'm into sports, specially football
    I don't think my voice sounds soft at all
    I love beer and watching football matches
    I do hate shopping but once in a while I need to get some stuff. So I'm sorry that makes me a sissy.

    anyway I just hope to fit in the "masculine" category some day. I guess I will just have to give up my attraction to arts and my attempts for making my place look tidy.

    regards.
    No reason to get offended because of his opinions. He wants a guy as least feminine as possible, who gives a shit? I never saw him say that guys who keep their place clean and like art aren't masculine or don't have masculine sides to them. He specifically said his last boyfriend was particularly feminine, he wants something else? Cant get mad at that.

  18. #18
    Porn Star Echoes's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by joshbuddz View Post
    No reason to get offended because of his opinions. He wants a guy as least feminine as possible, who gives a shit? I never saw him say that guys who keep their place clean and like art aren't masculine or don't have masculine sides to them. He specifically said his last boyfriend was particularly feminine, he wants something else? Cant get mad at that.
    I'm not offended, nobody has attacked me or anything like that, so there's no reason to be offended. Let's just say that it bugs me when people feel they're in an upper-level. And, of course he didn't say anything about neither arts nor keeping your place clean, I just like sarcasm.

  19. #19
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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
    I'm not offended, nobody has attacked me or anything like that, so there's no reason to be offended. Let's just say that it bugs me when people feel they're in an upper-level.





    He never said he was "better than you"; you put those words in his mouth yourself. All he said was that he hasn't been able to find a man who he's compatible with; someone who's on the same page with him.
    He wants to have an equal partnership with someone, because he isn't into the dominant/submissive roles of a heterosexual relationship. He wants to have a best friend he can hang out with and also have be intimate with. He wants a gay partnership, not someone who he holds dominance over.




    I really am sick and tired of gay men pulling the "You're self-loathing" card every time someone says they're into something different than what they represent. I've noticed that a lot of guys don't seem to like Asian men, for example. How would you feel if Asian men told you that you were self-loathing because you didn't happen to find them attractive?
    Quote Originally Posted by Entity View Post
    "PLACE MY GENETALIA IN THE THING YOU EAT AND BREATH WITH, OMG TRY TO EAT IT WITHOUT USING YOUR TEETH!! AHHH" *cums everywhere*

  20. #20
    Porn Star Echoes's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomenclature View Post




    He never said he was "better than you"; you put those words in his mouth yourself. All he said was that he hasn't been able to find a man who he's compatible with; someone who's on the same page with him.
    He wants to have an equal partnership with someone, because he isn't into the dominant/submissive roles of a heterosexual relationship. He wants to have a best friend he can hang out with and also have be intimate with. He wants a gay partnership, not someone who he holds dominance over.




    I really am sick and tired of gay men pulling the "You're self-loathing" card every time someone says they're into something different than what they represent. I've noticed that a lot of guys don't seem to like Asian men, for example. How would you feel if Asian men told you that you were self-loathing because you didn't happen to find them attractive?

    I never said he said that either. I'm sort of tired of the issue and I think you'd agree if I say that even if you don't say something explicit people can infer it. I won't say more because what I wrote was for him and he hasn't answered back yet, all I could say to you guys at this point is OUT of context.
    We can have a chat about what I think about the Asian men example you gave in private. I'm not looking for distorting the main topic here.

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    Lascivious Lush altlover85's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomenclature View Post
    He wants to have an equal partnership with someone, because he isn't into the dominant/submissive roles of a heterosexual relationship. He wants to have a best friend he can hang out with and also have be intimate with. He wants a gay partnership, not someone who he holds dominance over.
    So if you have a relationship with an effeminate guy, it's automatically about dominance and submission?

  22. #22
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    Re: Where are the men?

    Truly straight men love women because of pussy. They are not the least concerned about "appearing feminine"--because it just doesn't interest them.

    Ask a gay guy if he's worried that people will think he's into pussy and he'll universally say no. He's not interested in it, so he doesn't care that people might think he's into it.

    So the fact that the OP is worried about masculinity vs. Femininity just goes to show that he's gay acting. Straight guys aren't afraid of their wive's femininity.
    Hi!

  23. #23
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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomenclature View Post




    He never said he was "better than you"; you put those words in his mouth yourself. All he said was that he hasn't been able to find a man who he's compatible with; someone who's on the same page with him.
    He wants to have an equal partnership with someone, because he isn't into the dominant/submissive roles of a heterosexual relationship. He wants to have a best friend he can hang out with and also have be intimate with. He wants a gay partnership, not someone who he holds dominance over.
    Well said. Although not as blatant as and in your face as the people in the story in that other "how are gay men supposed to act?" thread, certain replies here seem to have echoes of the "nazi queens" (someone else's words, not mine) discussed there. I always thought a huge part of the whole gay movement is the idea that we can be free to be who we are and who we want and the freedom to love who we want. Yet as soon as someone expresses a preference for more masc acting guys, all of a sudden their self loathing or close minded.

    First up, the OP deserves credit for actually saying he's tried a relationship with a more eff guy and found it unsatisfying. Not like anyone can accuse him of not giving them a chance. Secondly, none of us are saying that one is better than the other. We all just prefer one over the other. that goes for whether you like twinks jocks bears or chubs, whether you like coffee or tea, boxers or briefs, repub or democrats (ok fine there's something wrong with you if you like dem....jk wrong forum ).

    In my case at least, my preference isn't towards effem guys, jest femm people in general. It's a gender neutral preference. I don't care to hang out with girls, or guys that act like girls. As curious as I am about girls sexually, I'd probably be physically attracted to them if I didn't find them so annoying. Got nothing against them personally, I just generally don't care to be around them or associate with them. Again, that's my pref. Find me a girl that plays halo, works on cars, flies planes, farts in peoples faces, shoots guns, and is as horny and profane as me and the rest of my guy friends and we'll get along great.

    There are obviously a lot of different definitions of masculine and a whole spectrum of ways guys are undeniably straight and "straight acting", whether its jocks, preps, urban, thugs, bikers, geeks, dorks, gamers, rednecks, etc. There are also plenty of super straight guys who are concerned with keeping a good appearance not in a trendy super fashionable way, who are anal about clean homes, who appreciate arts etc. It is also a running joke that when I'm with a lot of my straight friends, we have to clarify to people that we run into that I'm the gay one in the group because you'd always assume it was one of them.

    What I think the OP is getting at and what I know I look for is the sort of guy who you can get tell every day has this sense of "yeah I'm a guy, I got a dick and balls, I know it, I love it, and I don't care what anyone else says, I wouldn't want it to be any other way." As I said the irony (and the messed up part from a church perspective) is that it took me walking away from religion and sucking a few cocks before I was ever actually able to say that myself, but now I do and it's an awesome feeling.

  24. #24
    Sex God andy12's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    If I don't respond to your post, ask again or PM me. I don't want to repeat too many things. I'll start answering from the top.

    For those who are offended, I'm not one of those masculine supremacists. Reread it again. I have noticed in real life that some, thought not most, effeminate gay men are offended at being labeled as such. Why? Is feminine a slur? I sure don't think so. Is being a woman a slur? I can understand such bitchiness though because most "straight-acting" (a term I fucking hate) gays are supremacists who think they are better and our society is rather anti-feminine so even gay men don't want to be labeled as such. There's actually a pretty good book aimed at gay men trying to get them to stop emulating masculinity they can't and shouldn't aspire to (Straight Acting: Gay Men, Masculinity and Finding True Love).

    Quote Originally Posted by altlover85 View Post
    I think most people have a blend of feminine and masculine traits.

    You seem like a smart man. I think you should try and be just a little more open-minded and not draw such a line about masculinity and femininity.
    As far as traits, I don't believe the party line about how everyone has both masculine and feminine traits. That's like saying everyone has a penis and a vagina. The problem I think is that no one really knows what masculine or feminine is. So it'd be instructive to look at the jobs that are male dominated and see what exactly about those jobs make them appealing to men. Tech startups are 99% male, why? Same with car mechanics. Tinkering seems to be masculine trait: you generally don't see women waxing cars either. The vast majority of work place injuries happen to men. Men could be more clumsy... or they take more risk-taking jobs. We can ignore the math and evidence pretending they mean nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by altlover85 View Post
    If you found the perfect guy, but he happened to like shopping, would it really be the end of the world? Your bf is always going to like to do things that you don't like to do.
    Well, the problem for me is that symbols of effeminacy and the essence of effeminacy go together. I don't want to write a dissertation here, but the Greeks made an effort to distinguish between the substance and accident. So a chair is not a chair because it has four wooden legs with a back (accident) but because it's used for sitting (substance).

    I would be perfectly content with the faggiest guy imaginable (lisp, walk, etc) if he was into "normal guy stuff." But that really is never the case: guys who appear effeminate are effeminate. That's one of the reasons I don't bother with women either. It just so happens that the accident and substance go hand in hand.

    I'm not chasing a fetish here. I don't want a human who has a passing resemblance to a man. I don't even want a man but man itself, or a person with "man" qualities. See the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by altlover85 View Post
    I have a feeling that if we went through your hobbies, we could find something that's not totally masculine. For example, Gore Vidal isn't a paragon of masculinity but you still have an admiration for him I would assume. I know that's not the same as wanting to date him, but there have to be some feminine traits that you could live with in an otherwise masculine guy.
    Just as it makes little sense to say "totally chair," it makes little sense to say "totally masculine." I understand what you're saying though. I like cooking and some would say that's girly. But let's look back at the accident/substance. It's not the cooking (or shopping) that is masculine or feminine but the reasons for it.

    Men, women, gay men can like the same general thing, like cooking, for different reasons. (It's not at all a surprise that most chefs are men though because that specific kind of cooking requires masculine traits.)

    And why isn't Gore Vidal masculine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
    could you provide a better explanation of what's for you the masculine super macho man (as you surely are) you're looking for?
    I mean only to see who could possibly fit in that category.

    sigh.
    You don't get it. This isn't about macho. Macho is a cultural invention that has some semblance to masculinity but it's still quite a caricature. I'm not interested in macho and leather for the same reasons, btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    maybe you have only met gay men that confirm the stereotype because you are somehow attracted to them? ever thought about that?
    I did say I'm attracted to women. That's just a basic biological drive that has to exist otherwise I wouldn't be here to begin with. I also said that no one around me has been able to introduce me to anyone who is like me.

    So where do you find gay men who are not stereotypical?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audio Tech View Post
    Well, I am sort of like you.... so they (we) are out there. I like typical guy stuff, bugs and all.

    Hang in there.
    Thanks and where do you see guys like us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prestobesto View Post
    Am I the only one who saw this as a jarring contradiction?

    If liking the effeminate is not masculine, and you are attracted to women (who are presumably somewhat effeminate), are you not implictly admitting that you aren't 100% masculine?

    To my mind, that would place you in this category: "Not everyone is the same kind of effeminate, but some variant exists in all the men I've seen."
    It might be poorly worded but see my previous response concerning gender traits.

    My question of masculine men liking women is more of a scoffing eye roll directed at those men: since when is spending so much time around women masculine? It doesn't make them effeminate but it sort of emasculates them (not literally), although the two are not the same (effeminate and emasculated).

    There's this unwritten list of what society expects men to be (a lot of it is cultural nonsense but it's still based on some basic masculinity that is probably inherent). The last thing on the list is "fuck and spend your life with someone who is antithetical to every item on this list." How does that make any sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    If I don't respond to your post, ask again or PM me. I don't want to repeat too many things. I'll start answering from the top.

    For those who are offended, I'm not one of those masculine supremacists. Reread it again. I have noticed in real life that some, thought not most, effeminate gay men are offended at being labeled as such. Why? Is feminine a slur? I sure don't think so. Is being a woman a slur? I can understand such bitchiness though because most "straight-acting" (a term I fucking hate) gays are supremacists who think they are better and our society is rather anti-feminine so even gay men don't want to be labeled as such. There's actually a pretty good book aimed at gay men trying to get them to stop emulating masculinity they can't and shouldn't aspire to (Straight Acting: Gay Men, Masculinity and Finding True Love).

    Feminine is a slur if someone senses that it's being used in a derogatory sense. A lot of times people don't say things like "I'm attracted to effeminate men", but rather "I hate those effeminate men who hurt the cause of gay rights". It leads people to be sensitive and I think some people to be suspect of the intent of the word when the word is used, even at times when the usage might be innocuous.

    As far as traits, I don't believe the party line about how everyone has both masculine and feminine traits. That's like saying everyone has a penis and a vagina. The problem I think is that no one really knows what masculine or feminine is.

    I agree.

    So it'd be instructive to look at the jobs that are male dominated and see what exactly about those jobs make them appealing to men. Tech startups are 99% male, why? Same with car mechanics. Tinkering seems to be masculine trait: you generally don't see women waxing cars either. The vast majority of work place injuries happen to men. Men could be more clumsy... or they take more risk-taking jobs. We can ignore the math and evidence pretending they mean nothing.

    I think you are making a reasonable assumption here. I would add that most people are not immune to society and the gender roles that society pressures people into. It's part of socialization. People are affected by their environment. During World War II, women did non-traditional jobs, but when the men came back they weren't expected to keep them. I think there's some nature vs. nurture going on.

    Well, the problem for me is that symbols of effeminacy and the essence of effeminacy go together. I don't want to write a dissertation here, but the Greeks made an effort to distinguish between the substance and accident. So a chair is not a chair because it has four wooden legs with a back (accident) but because it's used for sitting (substance).

    Interesting. I've heard of that idea, but I don't know who it's from. Who is it from?

    I would be perfectly content with the faggiest guy imaginable (lisp, walk, etc) if he was into "normal guy stuff." But that really is never the case: guys who appear effeminate are effeminate. That's one of the reasons I don't bother with women either. It just so happens that the accident and substance go hand in hand.

    I can understand that. Of course, there is an exception to every rule, but I can see you not wanting to try and find that exception.

    I'm not chasing a fetish here. I don't want a human who has a passing resemblance to a man. I don't even want a man but man itself, or a person with "man" qualities. See the difference?

    I think you'd like my boyfriend and a lot of his friends. But one of his friends likes musicals, but is otherwise pretty masculine. Would that be acceptable?

    Just as it makes little sense to say "totally chair," it makes little sense to say "totally masculine." I understand what you're saying though. I like cooking and some would say that's girly. But let's look back at the accident/substance. It's not the cooking (or shopping) that is masculine or feminine but the reasons for it.

    Men, women, gay men can like the same general thing, like cooking, for different reasons. (It's not at all a surprise that most chefs are men though because that specific kind of cooking requires masculine traits.)

    Can you explain the difference? I have an idea of what it is. Perhaps it has something to do with the domestic sphere versus the professional sphere, but I'm not totally sure.

    And why isn't Gore Vidal masculine?
    He speaks softly and says many bon mots. Some would consider that effeminate. Frankly, I don't really care because I respect the man, but the point is, he's not a truck driving, bill swilling guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    I did say I'm attracted to women. That's just a basic biological drive that has to exist otherwise I wouldn't be here to begin with. I also said that no one around me has been able to introduce me to anyone who is like me.

    Actually it doesn't. Otherwise we wouldn't have this board. There are men guys here that have no desire to reproduce. If all guys were like that we wouldn't exist, but thankfully straight people exist.

    So where do you find gay men who are not stereotypical?
    I found my masculine gay guy online. They are out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    It might be poorly worded but see my previous response concerning gender traits.

    My question of masculine men liking women is more of a scoffing eye roll directed at those men: since when is spending so much time around women masculine? It doesn't make them effeminate but it sort of emasculates them (not literally), although the two are not the same (effeminate and emasculated).

    There's this unwritten list of what society expects men to be (a lot of it is cultural nonsense but it's still based on some basic masculinity that is probably inherent). The last thing on the list is "fuck and spend your life with someone who is antithetical to every item on this list." How does that make any sense?
    It makes sense in as much as most men are attracted to women for the survival of the species and the idea of two men together is threatening for society.

    I enjoy your posts and look forward to your responses.

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    Porn Star Treborf's Avatar
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    Re: Where are the men?

    It seems like you've developed a kinda weird perspective on masculinity to justify your homo(bi?)sexuality. You fuck guys because of the same reason boys like legos? Are you sure it's not because your dick gets hard at the sight/thought of another naked guy?

    But to answer your question, there are plenty of masculine gay guys, but if you've convinced yourself that they're all inauthentic, then you will of course never find what you're looking for. I don't even think what you're looking for even exists, because every guy who has ever been considered masculine has mimicked someone else's idea of what masculinity was, at least to some degree (aside from, maybe, the first Adam). I think you'd be better off worrying less about how guys stack up against any sort of masculinity purity test and just find guys you can have great convos with and great sex with.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdoe4822 View Post
    I can def relate to the OP's feelings. His views on relationships with women ring true, as do many guys seemingly revisionist definitions of being masculine. My friends have long jokingly said that I'm not really gay, I'm just a straight guy who's into other guys instead of girls. Andy, I can assure you that us out doorsy, car repairing, xbox playing, rock listening, shopping hating, fashion blind homos are out here.
    My friends told me that I'm so straight I like men.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdoe4822 View Post
    Where to find us? well when you find out lemme know.
    You say you're partnered. How'd that happen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    My friends told me that I'm so straight I like men.



    You say you're partnered. How'd that happen?
    Sorry I just have a question.. I have not taken offence to this post and I will not take offence to your answer..

    You asked where to find someone who doesnt match the gay stereotype.

    I like camping (I dont mind bugs unless they are biting me incessantly), I like fishing, I like swimming and wake boarding and cooking, I am not handy and therefore do not like fixing cars or tinkering. I also have a guilty pleasure in watching sort of girly television like Glee and True Blood. My favourite movies are Kill Bill and Kill Bill 2.

    My activities that I enjoy are in my opinion a mix of masculine and feminine with in my opinion more on the masculine side and so is my mannerism most people who meet me do not think i am gay until i tell them.

    I am just wondering how you would consider me? IF everyone is either masculine or feminine, yet you want to find someone who isnt stereotypically gay do you mean someone who enjoys no activities that you consider feminine?

    Plus you said that most cooking is a mainly guy thing. but out of that how many gay cooks are there.. LOTS and they are not cooks who go home and fix their cars.


    I am just trying to understand what you are thinking

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    Well, the problem for me is that symbols of effeminacy and the essence of effeminacy go together. I don't want to write a dissertation here, but the Greeks made an effort to distinguish between the substance and accident. So a chair is not a chair because it has four wooden legs with a back (accident) but because it's used for sitting (substance).
    A man who was arguably the best philosophy professor at my university once said "You can't be a philosopher and have a love life."

    You just reminded me of him.

    Anyway, I'm guessing this is less about sexual attraction and more about your philosophical ideal regarding relationships.. but is this something you can actually achieve, or is it a perfect, intangible form? I hope you don't miss out on your love life chasing something that doesn't exist.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    I don't want kids, I don't need to split the bills with anyone, and I can cook and clean just fine. So heterosexuality has nothing to offer me.
    Uh hold up. Responsibility and hard work are good for everybody, there's nothing 'straight' about that. The reason people share responsibilities is because it makes them feel like the relationship is headed toward somewhere and they're just not using each other as a fucktoy. If that's all you want out of a human being, then buy a dildo.

    I want somebody like me. A guy who likes guy stuff. I want a man in bed for the same reason I want a man to toss a football with. A want to fuck men for the same reason boys play with guns and legos. So it's definitely not just sex, it's an integral part of me. It sure doesn't feel like just a sexual orientation. Why shouldn't I like what I am?
    Bullshit. You are conflicted. You are still worried about how people see you, you still probably cry and get insecure if your grandmother found out you were gay. You'll never find sparks in 'people like you', opposites always create chemistry and complement each other.

    And that's really it: gay men seem to be women. Pretty much all the gays I've met confirm to the stereotypes. Not everyone is the same kind of effeminate, but some variant exists in all the men I've seen. Online, it's pretty much the same thing. I've asked friends, gay or straight. They don't know anyone either. Now, I'm not looking for a date: just someone like me to know I'm not the only one.
    But you're supposedly not the stereotype, so why do you care if some guys are, and why are you attracting these 'female gays' anyway. Again, you're conflicted. Part of you really believes that 'opposites attract' and you need a female type of gay since you yourself are a more masculine type, but then the other of you wants also that male friend that is 'just one of the guys' and you can have easy sex 'with no drama.' But that's not possible. Friends are friends and lovers are something more.

    And real life is NOT a corbin fisher porn drama okay? The only difference between a good man and an evil man is that a good man understands the difference between reality and fantasy. The 'hot str8 dude' that everybody wants to sleep with (even str8 guys lmao) is due to nobody in the mainstream society perceives gay men as 'sexy' or 'hot' and so you internalize that.

    I don't feel gay. I've always felt this way, even though I couldn't articulate it. Around puberty when I noticed other guys fawning over women, despite my attractions to women, I never understood how liking effeminate could be masculine. I like men because I'm a man. I'm a genuine homo.
    Right. And so fag-acting fags are 'faking it' amiright? Your problem is your being a narcissistic asshole. And you're conflicted about what you want out of life and what you want out of a relationship. Until you get that straightened out yourself, you'll never find a romantic partner and somebody you like.

    And btw, I question your masculinity because masculinity doesn't protest itself. It doesn't declare 'here I am.' It speaks for itself. It's ingrained. You obviously still care very much that so many 'effeminate gay males exist.' A true masculine man wouldn't give a shit imo. I think you might be self-loathing about your own female qualities perhaps.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    You don't get it. This isn't about macho. Macho is a cultural invention that has some semblance to masculinity but it's still quite a caricature. I'm not interested in macho and leather for the same reasons, btw.
    cultural inventions are also known as stereotypes and as I've clearly noticed you BELIEVE in them, you said you only found gay people who match the stereotype, isn't that a contradiction?


    Mate, I just hope you can find the REAL yourself soon and stop caring about what you want others to see in you that way.

    Last edited by Echoes; October 6th, 2010 at 07:23 PM. Reason: just clarified my point

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    My friends told me that I'm so straight I like men.
    lol true that

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    You say you're partnered. How'd that happen?
    I got real lucky bro. I had to be patient. I met my boyfriend online, on adam4adam. I'm not necessarily recommending it as a source. Understand I've been on there for almost 4 years and while I wasn't always looking for a relationship, I can probably on both hands, and maybe just 1, the number of people I've actually got something resembling a friendship with and this guy is my first boyfriend (or partner of any kind). That being said, once I found him, all the other fucktards suddenly were worth it. We chatted for a little while online, decided to meet up, no expectations, just wanting to see what the other was like.

    We met up at and hung out at one of the gay clubs here, but the atmosphere wasn't really working for us so we went to a sports bar and hung out there and talked for a couple hours lol. He's a cop and I'm a firefighter so we clicked well on that, we actually agree on politics which is rare since were both libertarian leaning republicans, we had similar views on relationships, etc. he more I realized I felt differently about this guy than any other before. I'd met other good looking masc guys with whom I'd had at least some common interests but something was usually missing. can't put my finger on what was different about him but things just clicked. maybe love at first sight is for real after all.the icing was that he said his plan for his police retirement was to buy a Ferrari and a Cessna. Like I said, really lucky.

    I wish I knew an easier way to find em cause I could still use some more like minded friends, but until someone develops and starts selling a legit gaydar, I don't have an answer for how to overcome the quandary of a me being a guy most people can't tell is gay trying to connect with other guys you can't tell are gay.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by slnattak View Post
    Uh hold up. Responsibility and hard work are good for everybody, there's nothing 'straight' about that. The reason people share responsibilities is because it makes them feel like the relationship is headed toward somewhere and they're just not using each other as a fucktoy. If that's all you want out of a human being, then buy a dildo.
    You can maintain your independence (keep separate homes, separate cars, separate finances etc) without your partner just being a fucktoy. You can still be there for each other, still love each other, and have way hotter sex than you could anywhere else.

    Point is, why do I need to share my personal life with a girl, or someone who acts like a girl if I'm not looking for domestic bliss.

    Quote Originally Posted by slnattak View Post
    Bullshit. You are conflicted. You are still worried about how people see you, you still probably cry and get insecure if your grandmother found out you were gay. You'll never find sparks in 'people like you', opposites always create chemistry and complement each other.
    and here it comes, the whole conflicted insecure shit. Look we accept effem guys and that that's the way they are. We're not attracted to it, and it quite frankly I find them annoying but to each his own. I annoy a lot of people to. If you got a problem with how I act, oh well.

    Far as opposites attract, maybe works for some people but not for all. My best friend and I have been described by those who know us as "clones". As I told in my story about my boyfriend above, what attracted me to him was how much we had in common, not how different he was or how he complemented me. Some differences are fine and definitely desirable, but in general, I know I prefer to associate with and be around people who are like minded, like interests, like mannered, etc.

    Again, that's a gender neutral pronouncement. My sister was welcome to play Halo with me and my friends anytime she wanted. I'll gladly and willingly put my life in a female firefighter's hands. We had a girl pilot at my airport job who was a 4ft 10 bottle of sexual frustration who would exclaim "oh tits" whenever she was upset and who's first question to you if you said you met a new girl was a giddy "did you touch her boobies?" I'd hang out with her any day and if all girls acted like that I could see myself going straight, cause it was quite frankly a turn on.

    Quote Originally Posted by slnattak View Post
    But you're supposedly not the stereotype, so why do you care if some guys are, and why are you attracting these 'female gays' anyway. Again, you're conflicted. Part of you really believes that 'opposites attract' and you need a female type of gay since you yourself are a more masculine type, but then the other of you wants also that male friend that is 'just one of the guys' and you can have easy sex 'with no drama.' But that's not possible. Friends are friends and lovers are something more.
    He's not saying there's something wrong with fitting the stereotype, just that it's not the sort of person he's looking to have in his life right now. Maybe he's attracting them for the same reason girls hit on my boyfriend last time we went to a club, cause he's a good looking piece of man meat lol.

    As far as friends are friends and lovers are lovers...Sex is sex, no matter who you have it with. It's definitely better the more of a connection you have with the person you're doing it with, but I don't see why sex among friends should complicate things. I have one friend of mine who was a regular FB before I had a boyfriend. We don't sleep together anymore, but we still hang out, were still friends, and things are cool cause we're mature adults, and we recognize that sex is something that is fun for us to do together when we can but when one of us makes a comittment to a partner, we respect that and are cool with it. And ultimately, I'd probably expect my partner to be my best friend and ideally he'd integrate well with my friends.


    Quote Originally Posted by slnattak View Post
    Right. And so fag-acting fags are 'faking it' amiright? Your problem is your being a narcissistic asshole. And you're conflicted about what you want out of life and what you want out of a relationship. Until you get that straightened out yourself, you'll never find a romantic partner and somebody you like.

    And btw, I question your masculinity because masculinity doesn't protest itself. It doesn't declare 'here I am.' It speaks for itself. It's ingrained. You obviously still care very much that so many 'effeminate gay males exist.' A true masculine man wouldn't give a shit imo. I think you might be self-loathing about your own female qualities perhaps.
    I don't think he does give a shit. He's not attacking them or saying anythings wrong with it. He's just bemoaning the difficulty in finding other gay guys like him. I also don't sense conflict about what he wants. He tried going out with a femm guy, didn't work so now he'd like to try spending more time with masc guys. Where's the close mindedness, self hating or insecurity in that? You don't declare your manliness because your insecure, you declare it because you're proud of it, because your happy thankful and excited to be able to wake up every day and be a man. Just like I still have a McCain/Palin bumper sticker on my car. Same as a I post on my facebook status everytime Ferrari wins a Grand Prix. Same reason we fly American flags, wear football jerseys or take pride in anything else we are. Same idea as the celebration at any of our gay pride events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlondeCanadian View Post
    Sorry I just have a question.. I have not taken offence to this post and I will not take offence to your answer..

    You asked where to find someone who doesnt match the gay stereotype.

    I like camping (I dont mind bugs unless they are biting me incessantly), I like fishing, I like swimming and wake boarding and cooking, I am not handy and therefore do not like fixing cars or tinkering. I also have a guilty pleasure in watching sort of girly television like Glee and True Blood. My favourite movies are Kill Bill and Kill Bill 2.

    My activities that I enjoy are in my opinion a mix of masculine and feminine with in my opinion more on the masculine side and so is my mannerism most people who meet me do not think i am gay until i tell them.

    I am just wondering how you would consider me? IF everyone is either masculine or feminine, yet you want to find someone who isnt stereotypically gay do you mean someone who enjoys no activities that you consider feminine?

    Plus you said that most cooking is a mainly guy thing. but out of that how many gay cooks are there.. LOTS and they are not cooks who go home and fix their cars.


    I am just trying to understand what you are thinking
    As much as I might sound like I'm trying here, I can't speak for the OP. Interests are definitely a part of it, but mannerisms, the way you act, carry, and view yourself is also a part of it. As I said, there are a bunch of different ways to be "masc" or "str8t acting" as some might call it, and you have to look at the whole picture. A straight guy might be very fashion conscious and insist on keeping a clean well decorated because that's what gets him laid by a different girl every night.

    Never seen Glee but since when is true blood girlie? the str8t guys I know cannot get enough of Anna Paquins supposedly perfect breasts (not that I could judge)and generally seem to think the show is worth watching if just for that alone lmao.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by altlover85 View Post
    I think you are making a reasonable assumption here. I would add that most people are not immune to society and the gender roles that society pressures people into. It's part of socialization. People are affected by their environment. During World War II, women did non-traditional jobs, but when the men came back they weren't expected to keep them. I think there's some nature vs. nurture going on.
    While some gender traits can be cultural (I said myself that macho is BS), I don't believe all of it is. There's an essence that's inborn and cannot be changed. During the 50's and 60's it was routine (it still sort of is) to surgically "fix" those born with ambiguous genitalia. The reasoning was that gender, they thought, was completely cultural and you can make a boy or a girl. As it turns out, those little boys who were turned into girls always felt like boys.

    You could make the same argument about transpeople. If gender is something that's cultural, then why do some insist that they were essentially born in the wrong body?

    I'm quite surprised that many (not necessarily you) gays in this thread cannot fathom the concept of immutability of certain traits. Do they not insist they were born gay and cannot change? So what's the difference?

    Apparently, they can be born gay, but I cannot have been born a "real" man. They hope I find my "REAL" self soon because I must be cured of my delusions of genuine same-gender attractions. Perhaps they can recommend reparative therapy to heal me of my crazy desires. What hypocrisy.

    Quote Originally Posted by altlover85 View Post
    Interesting. I've heard of that idea, but I don't know who it's from. Who is it from?
    Aristotle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiality_and_actuality

    Quote Originally Posted by altlover85 View Post
    I think you'd like my boyfriend and a lot of his friends. But one of his friends likes musicals, but is otherwise pretty masculine. Would that be acceptable?
    I don't know. I'd have to see firsthand. A good rule of thumb is what they'd want to do for a first date, although I don't want to call it that since it reeks of hetero normative nonsense. I want to go to a park and throw a ball around or whatever. Haven't found any takers, except for a couple young twinks who seemed they were more into athletes than athletics. I don't want an admirer or fan club.

    Quote Originally Posted by altlover85 View Post
    Can you explain the difference? I have an idea of what it is. Perhaps it has something to do with the domestic sphere versus the professional sphere, but I'm not totally sure.
    That chefs are mostly men? My guess is that as a chef you're not working from a script, you're creating something new, which appears to be masculine trait. It's tinkering with stuff. How many female mad scientists do you think there are?

    Quote Originally Posted by altlover85 View Post
    He speaks softly and says many bon mots. Some would consider that effeminate. Frankly, I don't really care because I respect the man, but the point is, he's not a truck driving, bill swilling guy.
    That's probably just the anti-intellectual streak society is currently going through. Look at Al Gore (distantly related): he's perceived as a know-it all so Ann Coulter called him a "total fag." The same Al Gore that practically devoured his wife with a kiss in 2000.

    Quote Originally Posted by altlover85 View Post
    Actually it doesn't. Otherwise we wouldn't have this board. There are men guys here that have no desire to reproduce. If all guys were like that we wouldn't exist, but thankfully straight people exist.
    I suppose that was poorly-worded. I tried to say that I look at my attraction towards women as something that's there but not one I want to act upon.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by Treborf View Post
    It seems like you've developed a kinda weird perspective on masculinity to justify your homo(bi?)sexuality. You fuck guys because of the same reason boys like legos? Are you sure it's not because your dick gets hard at the sight/thought of another naked guy?
    I'm sure. It's not merely a sexual attraction. I want to be around other men. Not because I'm some creepy guy who wants to fuck ever masculine guy I see but because we connect. Not for sex, just in something as simple as communication.

    I might want to sleep with some of these men as well but that's beside the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Treborf View Post
    But to answer your question, there are plenty of masculine gay guys, but if you've convinced yourself that they're all inauthentic, then you will of course never find what you're looking for.
    I hope they're not all fake. It just so happens that I'm frustrated after seeing so many phonies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Treborf View Post
    I don't even think what you're looking for even exists, because every guy who has ever been considered masculine has mimicked someone else's idea of what masculinity was, at least to some degree (aside from, maybe, the first Adam).
    Sure, there's mimicry everywhere. That's a human trait, probably the most human of them all. But I still think there's an essence of masculinity that's either there or not in someone. With the phonies I'm referencing, they have no essence and no amount of mimicry is going to help them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Treborf View Post
    I think you'd be better off worrying less about how guys stack up against any sort of masculinity purity test and just find guys you can have great convos with and great sex with.
    Couldn't this be turned around on you? Why don't you stop worrying about cock so much and find a girl that you can have great convos with and great sex with? Why is it that my innate desires are less innate than yours?

    I mentioned intersex male babies whose genitalia was changed to female in another post. Even without male genitals, there was something in them that told them they were truly men. So when they grew up and were told about their situation, they knew they lived a lie. Same with the transgendered. They know it.

    That's the essence I'm looking for. Gay men don't seem to possess it. I guess it's a circular argument, but the fact that gay men dismiss my want of this essence shows that they don't have it.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlondeCanadian View Post
    I am just wondering how you would consider me? IF everyone is either masculine or feminine, yet you want to find someone who isnt stereotypically gay do you mean someone who enjoys no activities that you consider feminine?
    Sorry, I don't "diagnose" people online

    The question is what you feel like. I can only say that I feel fully male and masculine. Because I don't feel feminine at all, I don't like feminine. Now, I'm not phobic either. I had a similar conversation with an all gay ensemble at my ex's roommate's a few months ago. That was interesting for one night but if I had the choice between hanging out with regular guys or women/gay men, I'd choose the former.

    I don't know how old you are etc. I do know a lot of gays grow more femmy over time as they become comfortable with themselves. Check out this guy on Youtube <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G-s4bnJ9Yk> two years ago vs. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zSwV8s7eBI> now.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlondeCanadian View Post
    Plus you said that most cooking is a mainly guy thing. but out of that how many gay cooks are there.. LOTS and they are not cooks who go home and fix their cars.
    I said it depended on what the reason or motivating for cooking was and that chefs in particular were mostly male.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prestobesto View Post
    A man who was arguably the best philosophy professor at my university once said "You can't be a philosopher and have a love life."

    You just reminded me of him.
    Ha, yeah. Sounds about right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prestobesto View Post
    Anyway, I'm guessing this is less about sexual attraction and more about your philosophical ideal regarding relationships.. but is this something you can actually achieve, or is it a perfect, intangible form? I hope you don't miss out on your love life chasing something that doesn't exist.
    I don't think it's an ideal. There's plenty of men that have the basic attributes I'm looking for, or at least enough to start something. Except they say they like girls.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    While some gender traits can be cultural (I said myself that macho is BS), I don't believe all of it is. There's an essence that's inborn and cannot be changed. During the 50's and 60's it was routine (it still sort of is) to surgically "fix" those born with ambiguous genitalia. The reasoning was that gender, they thought, was completely cultural and you can make a boy or a girl. As it turns out, those little boys who were turned into girls always felt like boys.

    You could make the same argument about transpeople. If gender is something that's cultural, then why do some insist that they were essentially born in the wrong body?

    I'm quite surprised that many (not necessarily you) gays in this thread cannot fathom the concept of immutability of certain traits. Do they not insist they were born gay and cannot change? So what's the difference?
    I don't mind saying that some traits aren't changeable. I don't have enough knowledge about the subject to get into a very deep debate abut that, so I'll concede that point. My issue is that the traits you focus on are superficial and I think could get in your way of finding a quality man.

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    Apparently, they can be born gay, but I cannot have been born a "real" man. They hope I find my "REAL" self soon because I must be cured of my delusions of genuine same-gender attractions. Perhaps they can recommend reparative therapy to heal me of my crazy desires. What hypocrisy.
    I don't think anyone said you weren't a real man. Could you point out where someone did that?

    Thanks for the Aristotle link.

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    I don't know. I'd have to see firsthand. A good rule of thumb is what they'd want to do for a first date, although I don't want to call it that since it reeks of hetero normative nonsense. I want to go to a park and throw a ball around or whatever. Haven't found any takers, except for a couple young twinks who seemed they were more into athletes than athletics. I don't want an admirer or fan club.
    I think there are plenty of masculine guys out there that aren't athletic. It's fine that you need an athletic guy, but how many different activities does one have to be in to prove their masculinity to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    That chefs are mostly men? My guess is that as a chef you're not working from a script, you're creating something new, which appears to be masculine trait. It's tinkering with stuff. How many female mad scientists do you think there are?
    I don't know if I would say that creativity or tinkering is a masculine trait. How it might be expressed is different. But again how much of that is due to society? Plenty of women are stylists and fashion designers which is creative and not working from a script. When designing clothes people tinker with colors, lines, fabrics, concepts, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    That's probably just the anti-intellectual streak society is currently going through. Look at Al Gore (distantly related): he's perceived as a know-it all so Ann Coulter called him a "total fag." The same Al Gore that practically devoured his wife with a kiss in 2000.
    I sensed Gore Vidal was gay, but wasn't totally sure. He just has a way of being and talking that set my gaydar off. I would point to some interviews with him in the movie "The Celluloid Closet", but I don't have that movie with me right now. It's at my bf's house.

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    Sure, there's mimicry everywhere. That's a human trait, probably the most human of them all. But I still think there's an essence of masculinity that's either there or not in someone. With the phonies I'm referencing, they have no essence and no amount of mimicry is going to help them.
    I feel like your distinctions are more subjective and less objective.

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    Couldn't this be turned around on you? Why don't you stop worrying about cock so much and find a girl that you can have great convos with and great sex with? Why is it that my innate desires are less innate than yours?
    I think he's saying don't get so caught up in a checklist that you miss out on some great guys. It is unlikely that someone is going to meet all of your requirements. There are things about my bf that I wish I could change, but I've learned to accept them because he brings other things to the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    That's the essence I'm looking for. Gay men don't seem to possess it. I guess it's a circular argument, but the fact that gay men dismiss my want of this essence shows that they don't have it.
    It seems you've already made up your mind on the subject.

    I think it's fine you don't want to date a fem guy. That's your prerogative. But I think you get so caught up in some idea of masculinity that you miss out on some quality guys.

    Again, I ask how many feminine traits are okay for a guy to have to meet your standards?

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    You confuse me greatly. It seems to me that you want a completely masculine buddy who will play catch with you and have sex with you but not love or admire you (as that would be a fan club or feminine thing?)

    Sorry I am not trying to change your opinion at all just trying to understand out of a sense of curiosity lol

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by slnattak View Post
    Uh hold up. Responsibility and hard work are good for everybody, there's nothing 'straight' about that. The reason people share responsibilities is because it makes them feel like the relationship is headed toward somewhere and they're just not using each other as a fucktoy. If that's all you want out of a human being, then buy a dildo.
    You know, this is pretty funny. I had this conversation with female friends and they say the same thing. They can't imagine that there's a relationship that's different from hetero-normative marriage or simply fucking around. It was a summed up above by someone else: I want a best friend I can be intimate with. That they label that as a fuck buddy, which it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by slnattak View Post
    Bullshit. You are conflicted. You are still worried about how people see you, you still probably cry and get insecure if your grandmother found out you were gay.
    I paraded around my fabulously effeminate boyfriend of last summer to my friends. I don't have any friends who don't know that I like men and they've been alerted to be on the lookout for men like me. Hence the part where I say that I asked my straight and gay friends to find me someone like me. Did you read my OP?

    Quote Originally Posted by slnattak View Post
    You'll never find sparks in 'people like you', opposites always create chemistry and complement each other.
    Always? How insecure of you to label yourself gay and not want opposite women, right? Why are your feelings innate and mine "conflicted"? Why isn't your homosexuality "conflicted"? Why is your way of homosexuality the only right way?

    Quote Originally Posted by slnattak View Post
    But you're supposedly not the stereotype, so why do you care if some guys are,and why are you attracting these 'female gays' anyway.
    I suppose for the same reason I might occasionally attract females: my ex-boyfriend said that he likes masculine men.

    Quote Originally Posted by slnattak View Post
    Again, you're conflicted. Part of you really believes that 'opposites attract' and you need a female type of gay since you yourself are a more masculine type, but then the other of you wants also that male friend that is 'just one of the guys' and you can have easy sex 'with no drama.' But that's not possible. Friends are friends and lovers are something more.
    There is no conflict. I feel attracted to women because that's what my body tells me. I'm attracted to men too and because I'm compatible with them long-term, that's exactly what I want.

    Quote Originally Posted by slnattak View Post
    And real life is NOT a corbin fisher porn drama okay? The only difference between a good man and an evil man is that a good man understands the difference between reality and fantasy. The 'hot str8 dude' that everybody wants to sleep with (even str8 guys lmao) is due to nobody in the mainstream society perceives gay men as 'sexy' or 'hot' and so you internalize that.
    So you not liking women is innate, you were born with it, it's perfectly okay. When I say that I might find effeminate anything somewhat attractive but it's not a good long-term fit, then apparently I'm internalizing. Alright.

    Some of us are "Corbin Fisher" guys. I'm more on the skinny side, but I like sports and I'm athletic. We genuinely enjoy this stuff for its own sake. That there might be hot guys around is an added bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by slnattak View Post
    Right. And so fag-acting fags are 'faking it' amiright? Your problem is your being a narcissistic asshole. And you're conflicted about what you want out of life and what you want out of a relationship. Until you get that straightened out yourself, you'll never find a romantic partner and somebody you like.
    No, completely the opposite! I didn't say fags are faking it. Please read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote. Effeminate men are by nature inherently effeminate. It's definitely not an act. There's no faking it. The fake and phony part comes in when such effeminate men want to be Corbin Fisher guys but simply just aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by slnattak View Post
    And btw, I question your masculinity because masculinity doesn't protest itself. It doesn't declare 'here I am.' It speaks for itself. It's ingrained. You obviously still care very much that so many 'effeminate gay males exist.' A true masculine man wouldn't give a shit imo. I think you might be self-loathing about your own female qualities perhaps.
    I'm not frustrated by the effeminate, I'm frustrated by the LACK of masculine. I'm frustrated only by those effeminate men who fake being masculine. That pisses me off because it wastes my time and energy.

    It'd be nice if you actually read what I had to write and not what you think I wrote though.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    You know, this is pretty funny. I had this conversation with female friends and they say the same thing. They can't imagine that there's a relationship that's different from hetero-normative marriage or simply fucking around. It was a summed up above by someone else: I want a best friend I can be intimate with. That they label that as a fuck buddy, which it's not.
    What does your idea of a relationship look like? What is a hetero-normative marriage?

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlondeCanadian View Post
    You confuse me greatly. It seems to me that you want a completely masculine buddy who will play catch with you and have sex with you but not love or admire you (as that would be a fan club or feminine thing?)
    An admirer or fan club: these are unequal relationships. Look at all the Bieber fans: they madly love him, but it's kind of pathetic since the mania is one-sided. I can't stand that fawning attitude. The few twinks I attracted (and my boyfriend) didn't want me as an equal but as some "str8 jock" fetish.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Holy cow man..
    I'm not as articulate as you... so I will make this simple.

    There are ton's of gay guys in this world that are masculine.. Hell my best online buddy loves to fish, camp, all sorts of so called 'guy activities'... yet he also loves to share a gentle side with his b/f.. fact is they are going to get married in a few months.. btw - he's 24, his b/f is 55.

    As well as you write, well I"m not sure you exactly made your point, at least to me.
    Fem guys are all around, but so are masculine gay guys.
    No one would ever know I was gay.. I love to fish, camp.. but also love to plant flowers in my garden.

    Where are the men? well look around you man.. the men are all around this planet.
    Your profile says you have a b/f.. so what do you figure he is?

    Man, there are guys around that dress up in leather, ride Harleys, look all butch.. but the may be some of the sweetest guys in ths world.. very soft when it comes down to it.
    Yet there are sort fem acting guys that are tough as nails..
    I know a couple of them.. they've had to fight being labled as queer boys all their life..
    Made fun of, etc. Yet those two I know.... well they are tough. And I'd not be embarrassed to walk down the street with them.
    later.

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Quote Originally Posted by andy12 View Post
    An admirer or fan club: these are unequal relationships. Look at all the Bieber fans: they madly love him, but it's kind of pathetic since the mania is one-sided. I can't stand that fawning attitude. The few twinks I attracted (and my boyfriend) didn't want me as an equal but as some "str8 jock" fetish.
    I understand the difference now. But please dump your boyfriend if you are so clearly not interested in him....
    I am not really sure what you are looking for relationship dynamic wise.

    From what I can see though you seem to have some weird issues going on, Like you seem to think that no one who isnt straight and 100% masculine can be your equal in a relationship

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    Re: Where are the men?

    Where does it say andy12 has a bf? I see Single, not Partnered or Dating.

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