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  1. #51
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    I'd be interested in seeing some fresh polling, if anyone has something to share that would be great.

  2. #52
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Not a new poll but a new article from a conservative area of California

    Poll: More Americans accepting of gay marriage
    http://www.sbsun.com/ci_15380533?source=rss

    Thank goodness the definition of marriage does change over time. Women were originally thought of as property and marriage was originally about an exchange of property.

    "When you can't hide, discrimination falls." David Boies

  3. #53
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Gay couple challenges Wyoming's marriage law

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...to8kwD9HQ092G3

    Thank goodness the definition of marriage does change over time. Women were originally thought of as property and marriage was originally about an exchange of property.

    "When you can't hide, discrimination falls." David Boies

  4. #54
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    ^^^

    Is it a good move?

    Some would say it's best not to antagonize the legislatures in the four conservative states without constitutional amendments (WV, NC, IN, WY).

  5. #55
    JUB Addict soulseeker's Avatar
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Do all of those states have the highest population of Mormon?

  6. #56
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Yes, North Carolina especially. There are tons of Mormons in the Southeast.

  7. #57
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    ^^^

    Is it a good move?

    Some would say it's best not to antagonize the legislatures in the four conservative states without constitutional amendments (WV, NC, IN, WY).
    I won't say it's a good move with any level of dogma behind the idea, but I'll posit some reasons why it might be:

    1. This is not a state challenge, it's a Federal challenge. It also happens to be the first Federal challenge to a statute rather than a constitutional amendment, so it's an interesting test.

    2. In those conservative states, I really wonder why it matters whether they have constitutional amendments or statutes. If a new legislature comes in and repeals the statutes, the electorate will just pass a constitutional amendment anyway, so that's moot. It's just a matter of which way you prefer your rights denied, which is immaterial compared to the greater question of whether those rights are denied at all.

    3. It's curious that these men are trying to serve as their own attorneys. That may seem potentially disastrous, but I'd wonder if they were inspired by their own careful, independent review of the case presented in Perry and the ruling of Judge Walker.

    4. There's considerable risk in what they're doing, but a potentially huge reward. It really appears as if there will be no advancement of Judge Walker's ruling to a higher court, so this will get the ball rolling in another court and begin a potential timeline for a case to reach SCOTUS. This case, if heard, would reach the 10th circuit, which is very conservative. A ruling in favor of the plaintiffs would really smash a giant cinder block over the heads of the religio-cons.

  8. #58
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Federal or State, if the contest fails there will still be the constitutional amendment that wouldn't have been there if a challenge had not been made.



    And the 10th?

    *shudders*

  9. #59
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    If this advances, SCOTUS will have the option of picking up the Ninth Circuit Prop 8 case and bundling them. I really think that's what this is about: get several cases advancing in several circuits, and SCOTUS will almost have to pick it up -- especially if the circuits disagree.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #60
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Federal or State, if the contest fails there will still be the constitutional amendment that wouldn't have been there if a challenge had not been made.
    Wait, what? Just because a court challenge fails doesn't mean a constitutional amendment takes effect.

    And besides, what's the difference between a constitutional amendment against marriage equality and a statute? Either way, there's no marriage equality.

  11. #61
    JUB Addict hotatlboi's Avatar
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    And besides, what's the difference between a constitutional amendment against marriage equality and a statute? Either way, there's no marriage equality.
    Are you kidding? There's a huge difference. A statute could be declared unconstitutional by the courts. An amendment cannot since it is constitutional by definition.

    Regardless, I don't think an amendment is in the cards. The Repubs will not pick up enough seats in Congress to make that a possibility before public opinion changes enough to make it impossible.

  12. #62
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    Are you kidding? There's a huge difference. A statute could be declared unconstitutional by the courts. An amendment cannot since it is constitutional by definition.
    Are you being intentionally dense? We're talking about the after-effect of a Federal court challenge and you're concerned with what might happen in a state court???

  13. #63
    JUB Addict hotatlboi's Avatar
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    Are you being intentionally dense? We're talking about the after-effect of a Federal court challenge and you're concerned with what might happen in a state court???
    oh wait, were you talking about a state Constitutional amendment?

    If so my bad, I was thinking you were talking about the federal one.

  14. #64
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Oh, yes, we were referring to the possibility of conservative states with statutes only deciding to adopt constitutional amendments in response.

    You are indeed right - a Federal amendment just won't happen as it requires so many supermajorities.

    I just don't understand why Jockboy thinks a state-level statute is so preferable to a state-level constitutional amendment as both hinder marriage equality.

  15. #65
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    ^^^

    The remedy to a state constitutional amendment is only a state constitutional amendment, or successful federal court challenge. That's a great deal more than a statute which can be overturned in the future by a state supreme court when at the opportune moment. A federal court challenge may provoke a state constitutional amendment, and if that challenge fails there could be a constitutional amendment to deal with where there was only statue before that could have been overturned by a state court.

  16. #66
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    ^^^

    The remedy to a state constitutional amendment is only a state constitutional amendment, or successful federal court challenge. That's a great deal more than a statute which can be overturned in the future by a state supreme court when at the opportune moment. A federal court challenge may provoke a state constitutional amendment, and if that challenge fails there could be a constitutional amendment to deal with where there was only statue before that could have been overturned by a state court.
    My good sir, if Wyoming were to overturn its marriage statute via the courts, you realize the electorate is just going to pass a constitutional amendment that very same year, do you not?

  17. #67
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    My good sir, if Wyoming were to overturn its marriage statute via the courts, you realize the electorate is just going to pass a constitutional amendment that very same year, do you not?
    Not before marriages are legal though. Preempting it is easier for our opponents. The arguments don't exactly work when you try to scare people about something that could be when it already exists.

    As far as I know, California is the only state with a voter constitutional amendment initiative. So no it would not necessarily be the same year.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Busy day in California:

    The California Legislature passed a resolution calling on the federal Food and Drug Administration to overturn its policy banning healthy gay and bisexual men from donating blood! Not only is our state opposing discrimination, it is also standing up for the lives that can be saved.

    http://www.eqca.org/site/pp.asp?c=kuLRJ9MRKrH&b=5117327

    Other Progress Today:

    -The Unemployment Benefits Equality bill passed the legislature and is on its way to the Governor. It ensures that same-sex couples who are about to register as domestic partners get access to the same unemployment benefits as opposite-sex partners: http://bit.ly/bb2m8H

    -The Civil Marriage Religious Freedom Act passed the legislature but needs a second vote from each house, due to potential conflicts with another bill. This bill clarifies that churches are not required to solemnize marriages that go against their faith. It takes away our opponents' argument that allowing same-sex couples to wed would harm religious freedom: http://bit.ly/ao168v

    -The LGBT Prisoner Safety Act, which would require sexual orientation and gender identity to be considered in prison housing and classification decisions, passed the Senate and goes back to the Assembly now for one more vote: http://bit.ly/dx4AkA

    -The Hate Crimes Protection Act, which would prevent anyone from forcing you to sign contracts waiving your rights under California's hate crimes laws, passed the Senate and goes back to the Assembly now for one more vote: http://bit.ly/aXhsHC

    Thank goodness the definition of marriage does change over time. Women were originally thought of as property and marriage was originally about an exchange of property.

    "When you can't hide, discrimination falls." David Boies

  19. #69
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    As far as I know, California is the only state with a voter constitutional amendment initiative. So no it would not necessarily be the same year.
    We can do it in Oregon. It's really a good way to mess up a state constitution, when you can add to it by a mere majority vote.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  20. #70
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Not before marriages are legal though. Preempting it is easier for our opponents. The arguments don't exactly work when you try to scare people about something that could be when it already exists.

    As far as I know, California is the only state with a voter constitutional amendment initiative. So no it would not necessarily be the same year.
    Kuli is right about Oregon. In fact, there are a litany of states that allow for voter constitutional initiatives. Colorado does the same.

    Here's a good chart that shows how it differs from state to state:

    http://www.iandrinstitute.org/statewide_i%26r.htm

    But you are right in that Wyoming's Initiative process only allows for statutes.

    Nevertheless, how can you be so sure the legislature wouldn't take action that same year?

  21. #71
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    ^^^

    The information provided did not distinguish between constitutional initiatives which must meet legislative approval before being placed on the ballot, and those which do not. In many of those states, constitutional initiatives go to the legislature, not the ballot.

  22. #72
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    There's a chart at the bottom that shows you whether the initiatives are started directly (via the electorate) or indirectly (through legislative action).

    16 of the 18 states which allow for constitutional ballot initiatives have a direct process, and 2 are indirect (only Massachusetts and Mississippi).

  23. #73
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    That's a huge negative of having so many states. The movement is so fractured because there are just way too many states to do something for most people.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  24. #74
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    There's a chart at the bottom that shows you whether the initiatives are started directly (via the electorate) or indirectly (through legislative action).

    16 of the 18 states which allow for constitutional ballot initiatives have a direct process, and 2 are indirect (only Massachusetts and Mississippi).
    That's what initiative means after all.

    Up until now, I assumed all states with constitutional initiatives except California met legislative review before appearing on the ballot.

    It is still not clear how many are which.

  25. #75
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    That's a huge negative of having so many states. The movement is so fractured because there are just way too many states to do something for most people.
    People should direct focus to New York state for now, IMO.

    It's one of the largest states in the union, and it's one of the closest to achieving marriage equality through legislative action.

    There's a key legislative battle going on there right now.

    Senator Ruben Diaz, the bigoted conservative Democrat from the Bronx, who is also a Pentecostal Dominionist, is facing a primary challenge from fellow Democrat Charlie Ramos (a pro-equality candidate).

    In fact, there are a few interesting races:

    * 27th district: Incumbent Democrat Carl Kruger faces a primary challenge from administrative judge Igor Oberman. Kruger has come under fire for his vote against gay marriage and for his involvement with the dissident Amigos faction within the Democractic caucus.

    * 32nd district: Incumbent Democrat Ruben Diaz faces a potential primary challenge from Charlie Ramos; Diaz has often come under fire for his very public opposition to gay marriage.

    * 33rd district: Incumbent Democrat Pedro Espada faces primary challenges from Desiree Pilgrim-Hunter and Jose Gustavo Rivera. Espada gained notoriety and disdain from Democrats for his role in the 2009 coup that eventually led to his elevation to the position of majority leader; he is also currently being investigated by the Bronx District Attorney for residency issues,[6] the IRS for alleged tax fraud,[7] and by the State Attorney General for looting a state-funded health clinic.[8]


    * 58th District: Incumbent Democrat William Stachowski faced an unexpectedly close race in 2008 winning 53% to 47% over Dennis Delano. The district includes parts of Buffalo, all of the city of Lackawanna, and the towns of Cheektowaga, West Seneca, Hamburg and Eden. He faces primary challenges from Erie County legislator Tim Kennedy and attorney Sean Cooney. Jack Quinn III, assemblyman and son of former congressman Jack Quinn, is running on the Republican line.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yor...lections,_2010

    Stachowski, Diaz, and Kruger all voted against same-sex marriage, and Espada caused some of the critical divisions in the Senate that fractured Democratic alliances (which in turn led to the bill's failure). It's not listed there, but Shirley Huntley (another vote against) faces a primary challenge from Lynn Nunes.

    There are some more, but it's a shame to see that Ramos in particular is so under-funded.

    The gay rights establishment has colossally failed during this election cycle. They've done nothing to promote any of the key legislative battles in two of the states closest to enacting same-sex marriage (Maryland and New York).

    I guess it's more fun to get one's panties in a wad over Target and Tom Emmer.

  26. #76
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    ^^^

    Can't see everything EQMD is doing to secure Senate votes in the General Assembly.

    It's unfortunate. Their PR campaign is as lousy as Obama's.

  27. #77

    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Kruger's challenger dropped out due to a lack of signatures.

    Ramos may be underfunded, but he's getting lots of endorsements (recently 2 from huge unions) and Diaz is finding himself under increasing controversy, and not just for gay marriage (he also voiced support for a bill that would fire over a thousand teachers from the Brox area).

    Stachowski has also been under fire for holding up approval of the state budget.

    Also, there is a decent chance the New York State Senate will actually gain Democratic seats this election (from what I understand, it's one of the only states to NOT be affected by the Tea Party), most likely one in Long Island and one in Queens.

    If enough gay rights supporters get out and vote in the primaries in less then 3 weeks, there is actually a good chance of outseating all 3 of them, since very few people vote in primary elections of any kind.

  28. #78
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Yeah, I just read that about Igor Oberman. That's a shame. Kruger *could* be a movable vote if they get Diaz out of there, though. He's really the key. Onoranto and Diaz were the two Dems who were just never going to vote in favor. Addabo and Aubertine - spineless as they may be for their votes - are not only movable, but apparently pledged support for the bill last year and probably only voted how they did to thumb their noses at Duane.

    This is frustratingly close. Hopefully, the progressives sink the battleship with Diaz.

    You may be right about the Dems gaining seats, but Brian X. Foley (Long Island Democrat who was a yes vote) has a very vulnerable seat.

  29. #79
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    ^^^

    Can't see everything EQMD is doing to secure Senate votes in the General Assembly.

    It's unfortunate. Their PR campaign is as lousy as Obama's.
    The latest e-mail they sent me was terrible - just vague, unconvincing promises of "fighting for key Senate seats."

    They did not say which seats they were target, nor did they mention which candidates they were supporting.

    Also, their "second round" of endorsements came too little too late.

    The key race was Hadfield vs. Stone in the primary for District 6 (Stone continually thwarts marriage equality in the Judicial Proceedings Committee), and they balked on endorsing Hadfield until friggin' August - way too late in the game.

    If you know anything I don't know, feel free to PM me about it. I've held off on giving them any money, but I think I'm going to speak with them tomorrow to see if they're getting things together.

  30. #80

    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Also, don't forget that if the gap narrows, it will up the chances of Republican support, the risk of pledging support to a bill that "won't pass" will go down. Jim Alessi (Republican-Rochester) was long considered a likely yes vote, but voted no for that reason (and he seemed like he genuinly wanted to vote yes).

    Addabbo will likely flip to yes out of fear of facing a similar fate of his fellow Queen senators (assumingly). Auberdine was a freshman senator in a Republican (though increasingly Democratic) lean area, so now that he has his feet in the ground he will likely feel more comfortable with taking risks.

    In 2008 Foley won the election by 21,000 votes (don't know the % though). Hopefully Cuamo's coattails will help him out a bit (he's expected to win by at least 60%).

  31. #81
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    Also, don't forget that if the gap narrows, it will up the chances of Republican support, the risk of pledging support to a bill that "won't pass" will go down. Jim Alessi (Republican-Rochester) was long considered a likely yes vote, but voted no for that reason (and he seemed like he genuinly wanted to vote yes).
    I don't buy it. There's no difference between a yes vote for a passing bill and a yes vote for a failing bill.

    A yes vote is the same either way. Either the constituents are going to like it or they aren't. I think, if anything, it would piss them off more if Alesi is the deciding vote and it passes if his district doesn't want it to pass.
    Addabbo will likely flip to yes out of fear of facing a similar fate of his fellow Queen senators (assumingly).
    Monserrate was a criminal and Onorato was a really old fuck who had to retire, so there's no recourse there. Addabbo can do whatever the fug he wants. His district is just too conservative.

    The only sign of hope would be to see Shirley Huntley's ass kicked to the curb. That would really put Addabbo on warning.

    I really doubt it, though. These dipshit religio-tards will continue voting for conservadems and voting against their own interests. We've seen the cycle of perpetuating misery in so many other places in this country. People continually vote for these politicians who are drunk on religion - just like them - only to see those very politicians leave their districts in ruin with awful, corrupt, self-serving policies.
    Auberdine was a freshman senator in a Republican (though increasingly Democratic) lean area, so now that he has his feet in the ground he will likely feel more comfortable with taking risks.
    Bullshit. Foley was a freshman too and had no problem. Aubertine has taken a firm "no" stance. A lot of people put him as a maybe, but as it turns out, he pledged a no-vote all along. I don't know what the fuck Tom Duane was smoking.

    In 2008 Foley won the election by 21,000 votes (don't know the % though). Hopefully Cuamo's coattails will help him out a bit (he's expected to win by at least 60%).
    Cuomo's coattails? Please. Cuomo is a lock - nobody's going to be galvanized to go out and vote for him. Foley won comfortably, but it's a fairly Rebpulican district, and Foley really seemed to ride the Obama vote just like the other Dems in '08.

    They are fucked in NY unless they get a net gain of 4 pro-equality Senators. It's possible, but unlikely. Again, it comes down to the primaries. If we see Stachowski, Huntley, and Diaz all hold onto their seats, it's as good as done.

  32. #82
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    And for more important news...

    How the FUCK did THIS fly over everyone's head???:

    http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S....shtml?cat=500

    SANTA FE, N.M. (AP) - A state district judge in Santa Fe has ruled a marriage license issued by a Sandoval County clerk to a same-sex couple was valid, and therefore subject to divorce.

    Judge Sarah Singleton made her decision Monday in a hearing over a June 2009 divorce petition brought by Angela Carrejo against JaNelle Haught.

    Singleton did not rule whether gay marriage is legal in New Mexico, but looked only at the issue of whether the same-sex marriage licenses were invalid.

    Haught, an attorney who represented herself, asked the judge to dismiss the divorce petition.

    She argued the marriage was invalid since New Mexico law does not allow same-sex marriage.

    Carrejo's lawyer, Amber Train, contended the state does not ban same-sex marriage.
    It's legal in New Mexico now?...kind of...sort of...maybe...

    It's nice to see their court system do something right in light of the awful failures of the state legislature. Dipshits.

  33. #83
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    ^
    interesting....thank you..

    Thank goodness the definition of marriage does change over time. Women were originally thought of as property and marriage was originally about an exchange of property.

    "When you can't hide, discrimination falls." David Boies

  34. #84

    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Geez, why the change of heart Razor?

    "I don't buy it. There's no difference between a yes vote for a passing bill and a yes vote for a failing bill."

    Did you read what Alesi said after the vote?

    Yes, there is a huge difference, because if you vote yes to it and it doesn't pass it was for nothing (New York politics work like that apparently)

    "A yes vote is the same either way. Either the constituents are going to like it or they aren't. I think, if anything, it would piss them off more if Alesi is the deciding vote and it passes if his district doesn't want it to pass."

    He represents the Rochester area. Not super conservative, so it likely wouldn't be too risky.

    "Monserrate was a criminal and Onorato was a really old fuck who had to retire, so there's no recourse there. Addabbo can do whatever the fug he wants. His district is just too conservative."

    But Queens is becoming increasingly liberal too. All of New York is actually.

    "The only sign of hope would be to see Shirley Huntley's ass kicked to the curb. That would really put Addabbo on warning.

    I really doubt it, though. These dipshit religio-tards will continue voting for conservadems and voting against their own interests. We've seen the cycle of perpetuating misery in so many other places in this country. People continually vote for these politicians who are drunk on religion - just like them - only to see those very politicians leave their districts in ruin with awful, corrupt, self-serving policies."

    You may be surprised come September 15. Charlie Ramos has gained MAJOR union support while Diaz continues to attract growing criticism. Lynn Nues and Tim Kennedy are also gaining ground as well.

    "Bullshit. Foley was a freshman too and had no problem. Aubertine has taken a firm "no" stance. A lot of people put him as a maybe, but as it turns out, he pledged a no-vote all along. I don't know what the fuck Tom Duane was smoking."

    Do you have a source for Aubertine? I always heard he and Addabbo were undecided/leaned yes until the end. Also, Foley's district is likely more liberal then Aubertine's, and don't forget that Aubertine represents much of the same area as Scozzfava did as well.

    "Cuomo's coattails? Please. Cuomo is a lock - nobody's going to be galvanized to go out and vote for him. Foley won comfortably, but it's a fairly Rebpulican district, and Foley really seemed to ride the Obama vote just like the other Dems in '08."

    Okay, let me rephrase that: The Republican party is very unpopular right now in New York, so that will benefit Senate elections.

    "They are fucked in NY unless they get a net gain of 4 pro-equality Senators. It's possible, but unlikely. Again, it comes down to the primaries. If we see Stachowski, Huntley, and Diaz all hold onto their seats, it's as good as done."

    It's more likely then you think since not many people vote in the primaries, so they can be very easy to sway. Also, Padavan is out for sure.

  35. #85
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Change of heart on what?
    Did you read what Alesi said after the vote?

    Yes, there is a huge difference, because if you vote yes to it and it doesn't pass it was for nothing (New York politics work like that apparently)
    That's only an excuse. Still, you could be right. I wouldn't be amazed to see Alesi vote for it some time in the future, but I'd more likely chalk it up to changes in support for marriage in his district.

    As for what Alesi said, well, he bitched and moaned about the vote being brought up at the wrong time, which is a cop-out and shows how weak his commitment is.

    He represents the Rochester area. Not super conservative, so it likely wouldn't be too risky.
    We have no way of knowing what the views of members of his district were. Addabbo reported getting e-mails from constituents that were about 3-1 against vs. for, and he's in friggin' NYC.

    But Queens is becoming increasingly liberal too. All of New York is actually.
    1. What do you base this on?
    2. How do you know this extends to social issues? (I think districts like those of Addabbo/Huntley/Kruger/Diaz are more wary on conservatives' handling of economic issues)

    Really, only certain parts of NYC are socially liberal. It's highly concentrated in Manhattan. Manhattan's 4 neighboring boroughs didn't even support the Park51 Islamic Center (aka the "Ground Zero Mosque).
    You may be surprised come September 15. Charlie Ramos has gained MAJOR union support while Diaz continues to attract growing criticism. Lynn Nues and Tim Kennedy are also gaining ground as well.
    Ramos has gained some union support, but when good is it when his district is filled with a bunch of people who put their lord in front of their own welfare.

    Same can be said of Nunes. Voters will continually sacrifice their self-interests and economic well-being if it means that politicians will serve a Dominionist agenda. It's a known fact. There's some good literature on this subject.

    There's a ray of hope with Kennedy/Stachowski. Stachowski is being attacked on a number of fronts.

    Do you have a source for Aubertine? I always heard he and Addabbo were undecided/leaned yes until the end. Also, Foley's district is likely more liberal then Aubertine's, and don't forget that Aubertine represents much of the same area as Scozzfava did as well.
    You heard a myth - a product of wishful thinking conducted by Tom Duane.

    You see, I think Duane for his efforts, but he kind of, sort of...lied about the whole thing. Well, really, he totally lied.

    Duane had to make the vote *seem* closer than it really was in order to bring the vote to the floor. I think he knew it would fail, but he wanted it to go up anyway, so he convinced everyone that people like Kruger, Aubertine, and Huntley were on the fence. The important thing wasn't the bill's passage, but the vote itself because it would expose the conservadems who were against the measure and make it easier to get them out of office.

    Diane Savino, not Duane, has much more genuine/honest insight on the measure. She said there were only as many as 24 yes votes in the Senate, and look at what happened.

    Anyway, here's a link:

    http://www.observer.com/3058/same-se...erson-variable

    "At least two Democratic senators—Darrel Aubertine and Ruben Diaz Sr.—have said they will not vote to legalize same-sex marriage."

    Okay, let me rephrase that: The Republican party is very unpopular right now in New York, so that will benefit Senate elections.
    Alright, that's a more sensible proposition.

    It's more likely then you think since not many people vote in the primaries, so they can be very easy to sway. Also, Padavan is out for sure.
    Again, what are you basing this on? (the Padavan comment) Was there a poll in that district?

  36. #86
    RazorzEdge88
    Guest

    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    I feel like I should expound on my last post a bit. You asked why I had a change of heart, and although I did answer you honestly - I'm every bit as pessimistic as I was from the onset - I feel you were really asking me why I was so pessimistic.

    I am for a few reasons.

    For one, the gay rights establishment has failed New York in this election cycle. An inordinate amount of their attention has been on this Target nonsense, which really affects nothing except future elections. I mean, who cares that they donated to Emmer when Dayton is likely to win anyway, marriage equality is nearly a reality in Minnesota, and the very tenuous battleground of New York is more than three times larger than Minnesota? The gay rights groups should have made a HUGE deal out of the primary challenges to Diaz, Huntley, and Suck-kowski, and given much more money to their challengers. Ramos had to waste valuable time in court defending his own campaign, which wouldn't have been necessary had he been given enough funding to afford a lawyer.

    The reason for this is the need for groups like HRC to work against progress, and not for it. As perverse as that sounds, it's the reality, and it's all about money.

    We've joked time and again about how Maggie Gallagher and Brian Brown will be forced to "get real jobs" once we win equality. Well, people like Joe Solmonese have a similar interest in the prolonged struggle. He, along with the other fatcats at the top of HRC, take a huge cut every year thanks to how generously funded their organization is. As long as HRC is in business, these men have a very lucrative career at hand. So why do you think it is that Ramos was so underfunded, or Kennedy isn't getting more than Suck-kowski despite the fact that gay donors tend to be among the most opulent? It's the self-perpetuating nature of the gay rights establishment. Incremental progress is preferred.

    Also, of more relevance to the specifics in New York - there's the realities of New York politics. Namely, the fact that the DSCC (Democratic Senate Campaign Committee) is supporting the Democratic incumbents across the board - even the likes of traitorous Ruben Diaz.

    Then there's the fact that most of the pro-equality support is so heavily concentrated in Manhattan and a few surrounding areas in NYC metro. What good is the >50% figure that supports marriage equality in New York if it doesn't cover anywhere near a majority of the Senate Districts?

    So yes, I'm quite pessimistic, although maybe the primaries in a few weeks will be my panacea. Sorry to be so glum.

    To contrast that, here's an election preview if you care to learn more about the races.

    http://www.nycapitolnews.com/news/12...010-08-18.html

    Mike Kaplowitz and Susan Savage appear to have promising races.

  37. #87
    Porn Star killdawabbit's Avatar
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Why would a guy want to marry another guy? Sorry, but I still don't get it.

  38. #88
    RazorzEdge88
    Guest

    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by killdawabbit View Post
    Why would a guy want to marry another guy? Sorry, but I still don't get it.
    Oh great, another fuckin' troll.

    Someone summon the night elves!



    Hopefully no one tries to engage with this iteration.

  39. #89
    Defender of Downtrodden
    DonQuixote's Avatar
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Guys,
    I see the biggest stumbling block in New York as competing priorities at the moment. BUDGET, State Workers resolve to prohibit any reductions in staff because they can refuse until 2011 - our finances falling into the sinkhole be damned.

    As to Alessi - a Republican living in a working class town bordering the more Republican parts of Monroe County, of which Rochester is a part. (Louis Slaughter lives in my town, but the redistricting from 2000 census put us in the Corning US Rep district, even though we live North of Louise!)

    The voters are fed up with the grid lock and immobility of the state legislature. People may not like what our current governor is/has done, but he's been calling a spade a spade, and been trying to help solve the fiscal crisis. Downstate has controlled the purse strings - and, yes, they are Dems, for far too long - relying on the cash cow that is WAS Wall Street to fund all of the social welfare programs. That cow was slaughtered and cooked up into Sloppy Joes when the Wall and the Banks barfed up on the world.

    THESE are the issues that are going to get people in or out of office. I don't think Alessi has much to worry about. He doesn't make too many waves, and he tries to support his district. Rochester has a fairly vibrant and well accepted Gay Community. I don't believe Alessi's district extends to the Park Avenue area of the City, but I think, despite the more moderate slant on this side of town, people vote intelligently. I think Gay Marriage has fairly wide spread support in our area.

    Gay Marriage just may be a sacrificial lamb to garner support for budgetary matters. Until that gets back on track, it may not be "important enough" (to the Legislature) to warrant any kind of heated debate.

    A yes vote is the same either way. Either the constituents are going to like it or they aren't. I think, if anything, it would piss them off more if Alesi is the deciding vote and it passes if his district doesn't want it to pass.
    As I said, I don't think this would be a killer issue for Alessi.


    And I know, if I'll only be true, to this glorious quest . . .

  40. #90
    JockBoy87
    Guest

    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    The latest e-mail they sent me was terrible - just vague, unconvincing promises of "fighting for key Senate seats."

    They did not say which seats they were target, nor did they mention which candidates they were supporting.

    Also, their "second round" of endorsements came too little too late.

    The key race was Hadfield vs. Stone in the primary for District 6 (Stone continually thwarts marriage equality in the Judicial Proceedings Committee), and they balked on endorsing Hadfield until friggin' August - way too late in the game.

    If you know anything I don't know, feel free to PM me about it. I've held off on giving them any money, but I think I'm going to speak with them tomorrow to see if they're getting things together.
    Way too late... I'm glad to see that Lori Albin snagged an endorsement for the 42nd right along with Lafferty.

    Call Morgan, or Scott from Freedomtomarry to find out more stuff. They seem pretty knowledgeable.

  41. #91
    RobertACE
    Guest

    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by metta View Post
    Will Texas' first gay divorce open the state to gay marriage?

    http://www.walb.com/global/story.asp?s=11999565

    - Imagine the possibility that texas could have gay marriage before NY and CA.
    NH Lawmakers reject gay marriage repeal

    http://www.unionleader.com/article.a...arriage+repeal
    Gay marriage in Texas before NY and CA??? ....



    I'll believe it when I see it!

  42. #92
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Cute pic

    Who knows what comes next? It seems we're in limbo at the moment with nothing particular in the US coming up soon regarding the marriage equality issue other than perhaps the elections. Anyway I definitely won't be waiting for anything to happen. Campaigning has to go on continually.

  43. #93
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    ^
    I'm curious to see what will happen in NM (post 82)

    Thank goodness the definition of marriage does change over time. Women were originally thought of as property and marriage was originally about an exchange of property.

    "When you can't hide, discrimination falls." David Boies

  44. #94
    RazorzEdge88
    Guest

    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Thank you for the insight, DonQuixote.

    That quells my concerns with one half of the reasons for Alesi's no-vote.

    Still, it doesn't address the whole Scozzafava thing.

    Conventional wisdom tends to be very powerful in political circles, and the prevailing thought last year seemed to be that any of these Senators who decided to vote no would risk being "Scozzafava'd."

    In that sense, however, scream4ever is right - they are more likely to vote yes in the event that their vote will actually lead to passing of the bill.

    In that case, the likelihood of Alesi switching to the "yes side" in the near future seems good.

  45. #95
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    The issue is dead in Texas. The Supreme Court there just overruled the local judge's ruling - they said no same-sex marriage shall be recognized in any way, not even for a divorce.

    I agree with metta - we have something interesting going on in New Mexico.

  46. #96
    JUB Addict hotatlboi's Avatar
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    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by DonQuixote View Post
    Guys,
    I see the biggest stumbling block in New York as competing priorities at the moment. BUDGET, State Workers resolve to prohibit any reductions in staff because they can refuse until 2011 - our finances falling into the sinkhole be damned.
    The budget is not the problem. The issue was voted on recently. The problem is cowardly Democratic senators who caved and decided not to support it because they determined there were not enough votes and wanted to be on the winning side.

  47. #97

    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Too add a few words:

    -As I said, primary elections are easier ways to make a difference, since voter turnout is much less then that of the general election. Either way, the big factor will be removing Diaz. His removal may result in other Democrats changing their votes.

    -Addabbo recieving that many more emails from those opposed is not unusual (even for areas more liberal then Queens) since people are more likely to take the time to write when they are opposed to something, as opposed to being indifferent/in favor of.

    -The Texas case may not be dead yet. The state appeals court made the latest ruling, and the plaintiffs have not said whether they will appeal to the state Supreme Court.

    -I think the New Mexico case may result in the state recognizing (but not performing) same sex marriages, similar to New York, Maryland, and (to a smaller extent) Rhode Island.

  48. #98

    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_N...Sr_Challenger/

    This is big, considering the endorsement is coming from the largest Spanish speaking newspaper in New York.

  49. #99
    RazorzEdge88
    Guest

    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    Too add a few words:

    -As I said, primary elections are easier ways to make a difference, since voter turnout is much less then that of the general election. Either way, the big factor will be removing Diaz. His removal may result in other Democrats changing their votes.

    -Addabbo recieving that many more emails from those opposed is not unusual (even for areas more liberal then Queens) since people are more likely to take the time to write when they are opposed to something, as opposed to being indifferent/in favor of.

    -The Texas case may not be dead yet. The state appeals court made the latest ruling, and the plaintiffs have not said whether they will appeal to the state Supreme Court.

    -I think the New Mexico case may result in the state recognizing (but not performing) same sex marriages, similar to New York, Maryland, and (to a smaller extent) Rhode Island.
    *nods* You're right about everything here. I think NM will most likely end up with that kind of rule for their state.

    Also, mea culpa on Texas. I read that an Appeals Court overturned the original ruling. I didn't realize that the Appeals Court there is akin the the Federal Appeals Court in that it is not the highest court.

    In Maryland, our Supreme Court is known as the "Appeals Court" - this is not true of Texas, so there's still a possibility of appeal.

    I did read, however, that they remanded the original ruling, so I'm not sure if that wipes out the possibility of a future appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_N...Sr_Challenger/

    This is big, considering the endorsement is coming from the largest Spanish speaking newspaper in New York.
    Wow, this is big! For the first time, I'm on the optimistic side.

    The problem with the endorsements until now is that they didn't really do much to reach out to the very large Spanish-speaking constituency in SD-32. I read somewhere that roughly 2/3 of that district is Spanish-speaking Latino, many of them turning to Spanish-only broadcasts and media for information. If Ramos can make waves in that market, he has a much greater chance.

    The endorsement came kind of late in the game, but it's a big one. Best of luck to Ramos. This would be a huge coup for the equality battle in New York.

  50. #100
    JockBoy87
    Guest

    Re: Gay Marriage Updates By State

    ^^^

    Not only that but it would also prove the viability of FBNY as a reliable PAC.

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