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  1. #1
    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    What is wrong with Europeans?

    I mean... really.

  2. #2
    The gay gargoyle G-Lexington's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    They can't get their act together to be as disgusting as the Americans.

    Lex

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Europeans have a habit of reminding us that they share so much in common with so many Americans, one might suspect that they share common roots.

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    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nacreous View Post
    The Enlightenment. Everything just started going down hill after that.
    What do you mean exactly?

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    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nacreous View Post
    The Enlightenment. Everything just started going down hill after that.
    Rene Descartes reminds us that the enlightenment of the human person is a process of self discovery, leading us to understand that we share more in common with the rest of human life, than some Europeans would be prepared to tolerate.


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    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Rene Descartes reminds us that the enlightenment of the human person is a process of self discovery, leading us to understand that we share more in common with the rest of human life, than some Europeans would be prepared to tolerate.

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  7. #7
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by belamy View Post
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    You should know.

  8. #8
    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by noelie View Post
    Interesting, that's what my sociology Professor says. He says Kant, Marx, Descartes et al fucked us up.
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  9. #9
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by noelie View Post
    Interesting, that's what my sociology Professor says. He says Kant, Marx, Descartes et al fucked us up.
    Interpretation will so often remind us that the student is more often, or not the victim of his own self deluded thought that he understands, more than his teacher.

    In this sense we can blame the student who misappropriates the reasoning of such inspired people, as Descartes.

    Kant is in another category, well open to the thought that his genius was more on the side of madness.

    Marx would appear to be receiving a new found interest, during the current financial markets turmoil.

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by belamy View Post
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    You have enough to share. Why be shy?

  11. #11
    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Kant and Descartes and Marx (order or importance) represent the foundations of the world in which the West represents something in the international scenario, for all the retroactive interpretations or Europe being anything resembling a powerhouse before 1500-1600. Before that, Europe was a jumble of old meaningless traditions and fresh forces confusely striving to exert their full powers.
    Kant in particular represents something going beyond the world as we know it, in the West or anywhere else in any past or future era.

    If we have to tell all the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
    this is the most corrosive element in the whole foundation of the Western world: Click image for larger version. 

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  12. #12
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by belamy View Post
    Kant and Descartes and Marx (order or importance) represent the foundations of the world in which the West represents something in the international scenario, for all the retroactive interpretations or Europe being anything resembling a powerhouse before 1500-1600.

    If we have to tell all the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
    this is the most corrosive element in the whole foundation of the Western world: Click image for larger version. 

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    In other words everything preceding The Enlightenment, such as ancient Greece, The Roman Empire,Charlmagne and The Holy Roman Empire, The Byzantine Empire,The Renaissance etc etc etc is to be ignored? You, jest?

  13. #13
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Scruff .....and a bit of body odor perhaps...

  14. #14
    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    In other words everything preceding The Enlightenment, such as ancient Greece, The Roman Empire,Charlmagne and The Holy Roman Empire, The Byzantine Empire,The Renaissance etc etc etc is to be ignored? You, jest?
    Greece, the Roman Empire and the Byzantine and Holy Roman who wanted to be just another Roman Empire were not "Europe" yet. You could as well have cited Minoan and Mycenaean civilizations as "Europe". In fact, they are all often cited as such, but only in the same slipshod and romantic way that the Chinese talk of their country as having "5000 years of history": in that case we are talking of a cultural area, but not of a consistent tradition. It's like when Iraqis say that "they" were building cities when Westerners still lived in caverns (my ass!). Some particular American or European can have more in common with an ancient Assyrian or Sumerian than any average Iraqi.

    What is called "Renaissance" is a late medieval movement, which in part fucked up the posterior intellectual development in the continent (I mean by that the totally fucked up logics... no... the total absence of and disdain for logics in literary Humanism) but had at least the merit of breaking up the old shackles definitely.
    The real "Renaissance" began right after the Leonardos and Michelangelos who were just demolishing old traditions to make room for a later development of new ones: you can take the visual example of that in Vatican St. Peter's.

    Your vision of history is the typical one, established by Europe, of succesive more or less exotic rooms in a single house. Here the Greek, there is, there that... all considered diachronically in exactly the same manipulating and pseudo-scientific way the Chinese think today of their 56 ethnicities.

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by neruda View Post
    Scruff .....and a bit of body odor perhaps...
    That is not true, come, smell
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  16. #16
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by belamy View Post
    Greece, the Roman Empire and the Byzantine and Holy Roman who wanted to be just another Roman Empire one were not "Europe". What is called "Renaissance" is a late medieval movement, which in part fucked up the posterior intellectual development in the continent but at least broke up with the old shackles.
    The real "Renaissance" began right after the Leonardos and Michelangelos.
    Cahones. Ancient Greece is Europe. The Roman Empire was grown out of its European roots, in Italy. The Holy Roman Empire is Europe.The Byzantine Empire grew out of the Eastern Roman Empire, and was administered by Greeks.

    The real Renaissance had its genesis in Moorish Spain, before spreading to Italy.

    I trust that you will consider changing your choice of wine, for it would appear to have corroded your capacity to rationalise European history.

  17. #17
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    They think they're high class and supposedly think they're more sophisticated and have a better fashion sense than us Americans.

    They also have a thing called "tea time". That's right. Tea time.

    Those snooty bastards. Making a time just for sipping on their organic tea whilst nibbling on their lo carb crackers and discussing current events. Just who the hell do they think they are?

    The fact that they consider themselves the enlightened ones makes me sick.

    USA 4 LYFE!

  18. #18
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by noelie View Post
    There's a deep flaw in the logic of your statement.

    Those whom we call teachers were once students themselves. Their students often became teachers in their own right. There are countless examples of students who debunked what their teachers taught them. Durkheim and Mauss are the first I think of. As long as we place those who went before us on pedestals we'll always be looking up to them instead of looking to ourselves and realising that we too can formulate great ideas by which to lead our lives.

    A signpost is only an indicator to where we want to go - it isn't the destination.

    If we are to consider the substance of your understanding, kindly provide us with an example of a student of Descartes, successfully debunking his ideas.

    Further if the student becomes the master, of his teacher should we then presume that the student was always worthier of our adulation than his teacher?

  19. #19
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by noelie View Post
    I never said every teacher had a student that debunked him. The premise of my argument is not all teachers that are held in high regard remain there or deserve to be there - there have been other philosophers who disagreed with Descartes such as Hobbs and Berkeley. Just because certain philosophers had a huge influence doesn't mean they were right or deserved that influence - many times that influence came about through political affiliations. Descartes served in two royal courts AFAIK.
    Then I may assume that you are not attempting to suggest that a student of Descartes, was able to successfully debunk the ideas and principles espoused by Descartes?

  20. #20
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by noelie View Post
    ^

    Haven't I already said that?
    In so many words. I just needed your confirmation.

  21. #21
    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Cahones. Ancient Greece is Europe. The Roman Empire was grown out of its European roots, in Italy. The Holy Roman Empire is Europe.The Byzantine Empire grew out of the Eastern Roman Empire, and was administered by Greeks.

    The real Renaissance had its genesis in Moorish Spain, before spreading to Italy.

    I trust that you will consider changing your choice of wine, for it would appear to have corroded your capacity to rationalise European history.
    You see? You are doing it again: all that ever was of any interest to the Europeans they NOW (YOU are doing it now) call "Europe".

    Funniest of it all is when you seem to imply that you are talking about "facts" and "truth" when it's just a received fallacy, take the "Byzantine" for example: they called themselves "Romans" because they were the legitimate part of the Roman Empire that continued to exist after the fall of Rome.

    "Byzantine" is the term coined precisely in the era (from 1500-1600 on) in which Europe needed to affirm its own identity because it was clear that they were not just something "coming" or "taking after" other nations and empires, they were getting out of the shadow of Rome and dismantling it (again a perfect example is the use of materials taken from old buildings in Rome to build the churches and palaces in modern Rome) and thus began the reelaboration and manipulation of history that you are defending with all the faith and conviction and vehemence others use when talking about the Bible.

    What you call "the real Renaissance" in Moorish Spain is just a part of the Islamic Golden Age (VIIIth-XIIIth/XVIth centuries) but, of course, and like I have already said, you are talking from the European perspective that is interested in assimilating the achievements of a different civilization to its own glories. Those Islamic achievements were produced independently of anything related to the old Mediterranean world, let alone independently of the barbaric proto-Europeans: at most they were produced with them (as far as Christians were citizens) and in spite of those Christians and even in spite of the Islamic world itself, headed already back then to the sorry condition in which it is today.
    The Spaniards, who like to showcase an Islamic palace here and a mosque there have NEVER developed any tradtion linking them intellectually to what you called "Moorish Renaissance", very much unlike the British, French or the American, great nations that could acknowledge and use (and to some extent manipulate) those foreign achievements to develop their own.

    What you are talking about is, again, of something much less concrete than stones and boundaries, but infinitely more substantial, more important to the development of a sound and healthy (as far as that is possible) civilization. It's putting elements from the past and the force in the present together and bring them in a definite direction towards the future. But since it is all so abstract, it seems easier to think and make others believe that it had "always been there".

    You are talking the European Bible

  22. #22
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by belamy View Post
    You see? You are doing it again: all that ever was of any interest to the Europeans they NOW (YOU are doing it now) call "Europe".

    Of course we are referring to the history of today's Europe. Europe has been, and continues to be in a process of growth. Are you suggesting that the cultures, and history of the European states dating back to ancient Greece were not cross fertilising, and sharing with one another?


    Funniest of it all is when you seem to imply that you are talking about "facts" and "truth" when it's just a received fallacy, take the "Byzantine" for example: they called themselves "Romans" because they were the legitimate part of the Roman Empire that continued to exist after the fall of Rome.

    Even before the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire had become a separate political and military entity in its own right under the administration of the Greeks.

    "Byzantine" is the term coined precisely in the era (from 1500-1600 on) in which Europe needed to affirm its own identity because it was clear that they were not just something "coming" or "taking after" other nations and empires, they were getting out of the shadow of Rome and dismantling it (again a perfect example is the use of materials taken from old buildings in Rome to build the churches and palaces in modern Rome) and thus began the reelaboration and manipulation of history that you are defending with all the faith and conviction and vehemence others use when talking about the Bible.

    http://www.wsu.edu:8001/~dee/MA/BYZ.HTM

    I quote:

    Most historians consider the reign of Justinian (527-565) as marking a significant break with the Roman past. This is difficult to support—Justinian not only considered himself the emperor of all of Rome, including the territories occupied by the Goths, but also spoke Latin as his primary language.

    After the fall of Rome, the Byzantine emperors never gave over the idea of reconquering Rome. They did, however, take a lesson from the fall of Rome and all throughout the fifth century, the Byzantine emperors wrought a series of administrative and financial reforms. They produced the single most extensive corpus of Roman law in 425 and reformed taxation dramatically. Most importantly, however, they did not entrust their military to German generals—this had been the downfall of the Latin portion of the empire. They could not, however, maintain a powerful military—the loss of territory in the west had dramatically shrunk their financial resources.


    unquote

    What you call "the real Renaissance" in Moorish Spain is just a part of the Islamic Golden Age (VIIIth-XIIIth/XVIth centuries) but, of course, and like I have already said, you are talking from the European perspective that is interested in assimilating the achievements of a different civilization to its own glories. Those Islamic achievements were produced independently of anything related to the old Mediterranean world, let alone independently of the barbaric proto-Europeans: at most they were produced with them (as far as Christians were citizens) and in spite of those Christians and even in spite of the Islamic world itself, headed already back then to the sorry condition in which it is today.

    Moorish Spain was present in continental Europe, and also was influenced by the other European cultures with which the Moors shared Spain. Let us not underestimate the benefits of cross fertilisation. The Moors of North Africa, and those of Spain developed separately.

    The Spaniards, who like to showcase an Islamic palace here and a mosque there have NEVER developed any tradtion linking them intellectually to what you called "Moorish Renaissance", very much unlike the British, French or the American, great nations that could acknowledge and use (and to some extent manipulate) those foreign achievements to develop their own.

    The Spanish Moors merged much of their culture with local European (Spanish Christian) culture, thus enabling the rebirth of European civilisation, known to us through its Italian developments as The Renaissance.



    What you are talking about is, again, of something much less concrete than stones and boundaries, but infinitely more substantial, more important to the development of a sound and healthy (as far as that is possible) civilization.



    You are talking the European Bible
    So you keep baiting us.

    I have a football game to watch with my local team (Olympiacos) playing a Turkish team. More European cross kicking

  23. #23
    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by noelie View Post

    Descarte's and Kant's philosophy are full of that.
    Marx was in reaction to it. He was a seriously fucked up man.
    Kant was OCD to the point of being incapable of living a 'normal' life.
    Descartes' maybe, Kant's philosophy (the Kritik, in particular the first one) most certainly not, if you really ever became familiar with Kant's thinking instead of becoming one of those Kantian who would use Kant like a Mormon uses the Evangile. That Kant himself was "full" of the Bible is a different matter.
    If you don't see any of that you are the typical European... what the hell... the typical "enlightened" in any country, age and credo who is an erudite in everything and doesn't really understand a shit of anything.

    BTW, the obsession of Kant was the development of his philosophy, which he started developing seriously only after he abandoned the merry living he had led up to his 31st year, more or less.

    As for Marx, he was against the dogmatism and obscurantism implied in ANY religion, the Christian like the Buddhist, which may have began as "philopsohies of life" blablablablah, and ended up... as Marxism itself ended up: opium and shackles (more or less golden) for the masses

  24. #24
    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Of course we are referring to the history of today's Europe. Europe has been, and continues to be in a process of growth. Are you suggesting that the cultures, and history of the European states dating back to ancient Greece were not cross fertilising, and sharing with one another?
    What I'm saying is that you should be aware of precisely what you are saying: that "the history of today's Europe" does not equal with, does not "reflect" what happened in the geographical part of the world called Europe (which is basically a cultural term, you only need to listen American people who are reluctant to call Russia "Europe", or Europeans who won't like the Turks to be called "Europeans", but have no problem in doing so with the Icelanders who haven't even been sad footnote in European history).
    Your idea of European history, the official idea of European history (like any other official history) is in fact like one of those old sagas, like the legends surrounding the foundation of Rome or like the French kings dating their ancestry back to Trojan kings.

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    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by TalkinTotheRain View Post
    What is wrong with Europeans?

    That's what I was asking when I watched America's Next Top Model last night. If anyone else saw it then you know what I mean.
    I don't even need to have watched it to know EXACTLY what you mean

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Boys, if you know not Greek, German or Swedish, then please avoid philosophy.
    As for this thread, I personally prefer the Europeans over most others except the Aussies and Kiwis, and our Canadian neighbors and Mexicano neighbors.

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by arabbb View Post
    They think they're high class and supposedly think they're more sophisticated and have a better fashion sense than us Americans.

    They also have a thing called "tea time". That's right. Tea time.

    Those snooty bastards. Making a time just for sipping on their organic tea whilst nibbling on their lo carb crackers and discussing current events. Just who the hell do they think they are?

    The fact that they consider themselves the enlightened ones makes me sick.

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  28. #28
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    I don't know. But according to my friend from Belgium, he told me that Europe is much more conservative in some ways than America. He told me that you would never see a black leader voted in. Once Obama gets in, that may change.

    Whether that is true or not, I have no idea. He spends half the year in Europe (Belgium & France) and have the year in California.

    My friend has been wrong before so I take his information with a grain of salt.

    Thank goodness the definition of marriage does change over time. Women were originally thought of as property and marriage was originally about an exchange of property.

    "When you can't hide, discrimination falls." David Boies

  29. #29
    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nacreous View Post
    That would be a sarcastic statement intended to imply the opposite of what was actually stated.
    Intended to imply even the opposite of the opposite

    Quote Originally Posted by noelie View Post
    We have Arab Muslims and Black Christian fundamentalists elected as city and county councillors here in Ireland. We have an Arab in our Senate and people from all races and religions ran in the last elections for government (though it was overwhelmingly white and male that won).
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shepherd 2 View Post
    Boys, if you know not Greek, German or Swedish, then please avoid philosophy.
    As for this thread, I personally prefer the Europeans over most others except the Aussies and Kiwis, and our Canadian neighbors and Mexicano neighbors.

    Shep+
    I don't know a word of Swedish but I don't see how that's relevant to approaching philosophy : please enlighten me

  31. #31
    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    They think they're high class and supposedly think they're more sophisticated and have a better fashion sense than us Americans.
    Well, that would be easy because Americans simply don't have any sense of style at all.

    The fact that they consider themselves the enlightened ones makes me sick.
    There I COMPLETELY agree with you.

    USA 4 LYFE!

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by noelie View Post
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-religion/


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_morality

    Kant's writings are filled with Christian influences. From the concept of good and evil (he never went beyond good and evil) to the concept of immanence - he was basically espousing Christianity through philosophy.

    As long as humanity is tied down to believing in a deity or any hand-me-downs from such a deity it will be in ignorance IMO.
    You're talking about morals there, that's why I particularly singled out his first Kritik (the Kantian imperative is + Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	253744), but if you boil down Kant to his morals or to Christianity I doubt you ever actually read his work, even if you have perused it word by word, because it is not so much about his idealist (your reference to the concept of immanence) content as about the road he opens but wouldn't follow himself .... and, please, NOBODY apart from Nietzsche has officially ever tried to go beyond good and evil...
    The only way not to believe in a judging deity is by not believing in good and evil... and who would do that when everybody aspires to get rid of a god to become another one themselves or, even worse, replace one by the same one but under a different ritual?

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by TalkinTotheRain View Post
    Europeans do suck cock the best though. I tell them no teeth and they say none to worry about. Blimey!
    so you say the US guys, bite your cock?

    ouch
    Check out my very own Body Hair Lovers and Photography Groups!

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Most historians consider the reign of Justinian (527-565) as marking a significant break with the Roman past. This is difficult to support—Justinian not only considered himself the emperor of all of Rome, including the territories occupied by the Goths, but also spoke Latin as his primary language.

    After the fall of Rome, the Byzantine emperors never gave over the idea of reconquering Rome. They did, however, take a lesson from the fall of Rome and all throughout the fifth century, the Byzantine emperors wrought a series of administrative and financial reforms. They produced the single most extensive corpus of Roman law in 425 and reformed taxation dramatically. Most importantly, however, they did not entrust their military to German generals—this had been the downfall of the Latin portion of the empire. They could not, however, maintain a powerful military—the loss of territory in the west had dramatically shrunk their financial resources.


    Oh please kalli, everybody knows that, that's why I talked about them being the legitimate Roman Empire, because they had been so even before the first sack of Rome.
    They called themselves Romaioi for the same reason the "Holy Roman Empire" to which you yourself made a reference was called like that. They knew they were different from the Latin Roman (they believed they were better because they were Greek after all, with old traditions, more sophisticated, in fact they were very modern European in that) but, as far as their STATE and not their CULTURE was concerned, they called themselves "Roman". I quote

    The term "Byzantine Empire" is an invention of historians and was never used during the Empire's lifetime. The Empire's name in Greek was Basileia Rhōmaiōn (Greek: Βασιλεία Ῥωμαίων) — "The Empire of the Romans" — a translation of the Latin name of the Roman Empire (Latin: Imperium Romanōrum); or just Rhōmania (Greek: Ῥωμανία).

    The term "Byzantine" itself comes from "Byzantium", the name that the city of Constantinople had before it became the capital of Constantine. This older name of the city would rarely be used from this point onward except in historical or poetic contexts.

    The designation of the Empire as "Byzantine" began in Western Europe in 1557, when German historian Hieronymus Wolf published his work Corpus Historić By*zantinć, a collection of Byzantine sources. The publication in 1648 of the Byzantine du Louvre (Corpus Scriptorum Historić Byzantinć), and in 1680 of Du Cange's Historia Byzantina further popularized the use of Byzantine among French authors, such as Montesquieu.[5] It was not until the 19th century, however, with the birth of modern Greece, that the term "Byzantine" came into general use in the Western world.

    Before this, the Empire was described by Western Europeans as Imperium Graecorum (Empire of the Greeks)—Byzantine claims to Roman inheritance had been actively contested from at least the time of the coronation of Charlemagne as Imperator Augustus by Pope Leo III in 800. Whenever the Popes or the rulers of the West wanted to make use of the name Roman to refer to the Byzantine emperors, they preferred the term Imperator Romanić instead of Imperator Romanorum, a title that Westerners maintained applied only to Charlemagne and his successors.[6]


    I "disquote"

    It seems it was less confusing to invent a new term for them, even if it implied a manipulation of historical truth, since the fact that the "Byzantines" considered themselves proud of being Greek above all, they thought of themselves as the legitimate heirs (as it was in fact the truth, unlike the Holy Roman Empire) of the Roman Empire.
    When the European began to consider more systematically the empire that had just definitively died in Constantinople, it was not so much for clarity's sake as for trying to make them make sense in relation with the Western political and cultural concepts... and prejudices. Remember that after the fall of Rome, the West was supposed to be prey of the barbarians (the proto-Europeans in action that the Romans themselves had already encountered in "Gaul", "Britannia" and elsewhere) while, for them, true civilization persisted in the Greek Roman Empire: the Romaioi.

    Get it now?

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Then I may assume that you are not attempting to suggest that a student of Descartes, was able to successfully debunk the ideas and principles espoused by Descartes?
    Of course not, it suffices to read Descartes to realize that he's refuting himself as the fool he was
    The importance of Descartes as a philosopher is more a symbolic one, as someone who broke with the despotic auhority of the past, rather than in the little sense (if any) he actually made in his theories (even if his writings may seem perfectly reasonable, just like some people may think Palin makes sense when she talks, or that you belamy doesn't make sense in his writings while the theory from which they derive does).

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    I know the thread has sort of spiraled out of control into humor, but here are my beefs about Europe (based on having lived in Germany for two years):

    Please, note these are just general observations and say absolutely nothing about individuals!

    • Racism. It's different than what we have in the US, but in many ways more appallingly transparent. I watched non-white friends be stopped by the police and asked for ID numerous times, but it never happened to me once. Moreover, because national, ethnic and cultural identities are more closely aligned, the wall between European and non-European is more substantial. It's easier to become American and feel like an American for immigrant's children. This has important implications for social cohesion and racial harmony.
    • Negativity. As ignorant and uninformed as Americans are on average, we seem to be more optimistic about society and the future than Europeans. I had several Europeans tell me the reason they didn't want children was because they thought it would be cruel to bring them into such a damaged world. I've never heard an American give that rationale. There are other examples of this, but I won't go into them for brevity. Hope and optimism are important components of striving to improve the world and the culture. Without them, it's easier to get stuck in a malaise.
    • Smoking. France has finally banned smoking in most public places, but there's still a long way to go in most other places. This is really just a personal gripe, but social and public health attitudes toward smoking are very much behind those in North America.
    • The disabled. You very rarely see disabled people anywhere. Wheelchair ramps and other accommodations are almost unheard of compared the US. I get the impression that disabled people are hidden away more in Europe because it's not culturally acceptable for them to be visible. In the US, laws like the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) and accompanying cultural change have made it possible for many disabled people to find jobs, attend normal schools and otherwise contribute more directly to society.

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by drhladnjak View Post
    I know the thread has sort of spiraled out of control into humor, but here are my beefs about Europe (based on having lived in Germany for two years):

    Please, note these are just general observations and say absolutely nothing about individuals!
    • Racism. It's different than what we have in the US, but in many ways more appallingly transparent. I watched non-white friends be stopped by the police and asked for ID numerous times, but it never happened to me once. Moreover, because national, ethnic and cultural identities are more closely aligned, the wall between European and non-European is more substantial. It's easier to become American and feel like an American for immigrant's children. This has important implications for social cohesion and racial harmony.
    • Negativity. As ignorant and uninformed as Americans are on average, we seem to be more optimistic about society and the future than Europeans. I had several Europeans tell me the reason they didn't want children was because they thought it would be cruel to bring them into such a damaged world. I've never heard an American give that rationale. There are other examples of this, but I won't go into them for brevity. Hope and optimism are important components of striving to improve the world and the culture. Without them, it's easier to get stuck in a malaise.
    • Smoking. France has finally banned smoking in most public places, but there's still a long way to go in most other places. This is really just a personal gripe, but social and public health attitudes toward smoking are very much behind those in North America.
    • The disabled. You very rarely see disabled people anywhere. Wheelchair ramps and other accommodations are almost unheard of compared the US. I get the impression that disabled people are hidden away more in Europe because it's not culturally acceptable for them to be visible. In the US, laws like the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) and accompanying cultural change have made it possible for many disabled people to find jobs, attend normal schools and otherwise contribute more directly to society.
    Some (many in fact) Europeans may argue that your appreciation is rather superficial, especially in relation to the disabled, but I would say that in fact you took a far deeper peek at the real situation than the Euros would ever dare to acknowledge themselves, particularly with respect to racism.
    You may find a case in which a Sub-Saharan guy commuting in a train is the only one to get asked for his transport ticket and the rest of the passengers would revolt against the ticket collector (there are hardly ever necessary any more but you may still find them occasionally) but it's true that in Europe immigrants are ultimately seen as a threat to the "traditional" culture (their acceptance of foreign culture is a very folkloric one, based particularly in their appreciation of their food ), and while in the USA you can be black, or Jewish, or a wasp, or a Nazi, or a KKK member and still consider all of them part of the same country, however you hate each other, the Europeans, for all their talk on freedom and tolerance and diversity, would lecture the rest of the world on the only and true way of being a citizen: no Nazis, no religious people, no racist pride (unless you are black), etc, etc, etc.

  38. #38
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    I think all this national identity/pride and stuff is a load of bollocks, though maybe thats just because I'm from N.I.

    Every nation has good stuff and bad stuff in it, some have more publicity for the bad stuff than others, thats all.

    Apart from the french, everyone hates those fuckers. (irony)
    It's all a joke! Everything anybody ever valued or struggled for... it's all a monstrous, demented gag! So why can't you see the funny side? Why aren't you laughing?

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    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    The European are basically like the old Greeks (yeah, sexual decadence included ), and they will have the same political fate.

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by marleyisalegend View Post
    Ooooh, a psychic. What's gonna happen in the US? How does our future look, bleak or bright?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    OK, I'll bite.

    Mostly Europeans are arrogant snobs. Woefully ignorant of American ways (i.e., tipping, saying "please" and "thank you", using deodorant, etc.) and all too happy to tell us why they're better than us....

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    ^I've never been anywhere, in the USA, where one paid a "tip" before sitting down.

    Explain, please?

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    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Well, Nine's appreciation is superficial but totally right (I mean superficial because he barely scratched the surface ), but as far as tipping policies so, the differences are derived from the two different economic systems.
    In the USA you can be employed but earn exclusively the money of the tipping, that is, you have no salary given to you by the employer but directly by the client (most usual case is found is cruises), and it can make an important part of waiter's salary in any restaurant. In socialist ("socialdemocrat") Europe that's quite shocking and unthinkable unless you are a Middle East immigrant carrying butane gas cylinders.
    If you feel like tipping a taxi driver or a waiter in Barcelona you are doing something weird, shocking or even stupid.
    And tommy is right about certain tourist-oriented businesses, in the USA or, like I said, American-operated cruises in Europe. When you buy one of those packages you must be prepared to pay almost literally for every step you take, and get ridiculous charges like $5-$10 for a souvenir pic of your holiday.

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    Banned NineOfClubs's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Maybe I understand.

    We often add a tip for large groups in this country. Usually 18%. Because they're notorious for "skipping".

    When I was in The Bahamas a "tip" was always added to the bill. It was about 15% or so, and it was called a "service charge". Maybe the Florida place you frequented did the same thing, probably because they'd dealt with so many "ignorant" foreigners before.

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by tommyharley View Post
    Well then no wonder Europeans dont tip if we already think we have done.
    No. You don't "tip" because you're f*cking cheap! Cheap!

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by toffer View Post
    I have never encountered a rude European tourist. Never in my life. On the other hand, Parisians really, really treat Americans badly. They are miserable hosts.
    A close friend of mine recently returned from his first Paris trip. He liked the French.

    The only people he encountered during his stay that he felt were rude were Canadians.

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by tommyharley View Post
    what the fucks up your arse prick
    Nothing, at the moment.

    Care to change that for me?

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    Pococuranté belamy's Avatar
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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by NineOfClubs View Post
    A close friend of mine recently returned from his first Paris trip. He liked the French.

    The only people he encountered during his stay that he felt were rude were Canadians.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by NineOfClubs View Post
    No. You don't "tip" because you're f*cking cheap! Cheap!
    Like I said, in Europe you basically receive your fixed earn from a big daddy-boss: it can be the state, your head of staff or simply a client; in the USA everything is extremely more dynamic and network-oriented: everybody depends much more directly on everybody else.

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    Re: What is wrong with Europeans?

    ^belamy, I think you've nailed it. That's what it's all about. It's just "us".

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