Tibet conflict from a Chinese perspective [SPLIT]

[VanHiscers]

The violent conflict in Tibet has been going on for a while, however I believe, unlike how other foreign news are reported in western countries, you only have heard of one version of it: Some Tibetans tries to gain the independence of Tibet in a peaceful way, but Chinese government banned them in a violent way.

A few days ago, I couldn't tell if that was true or not, but now, after collecting news from home and abroad with my Firefox Ladder that can go over the Great Firewall, I could tell you that is ridiculous.

Before I start, I hope you have a good idea of telling propagandas from truth, western media are not in the charge of the governments, but they do report propagandas sometimes. So please check out the websites from which you got to know the news, and pay attention to the photos they use. Some media have used false photos or twisted explanations for real photos to report how Chinese government "reacted" to this issue. While actually, in Tibet, the tibetans, who's following Dailai Lama, or maybe other Tibetan independence supporters that I don't know, attacked innocent Chinese people, and that's why our army was there, to save and to protect our people. If you don't believe what I've said, ask the westerners who was in Tibet during the event. And about the photos, check out Youtube.com, there's a video about it.

Honestly, I don't really like Tibetans, the Chinese people made there a better place to live, built a railway, and gave young Tibetans chances to have good education, even better than the Chineses', nevertheless they are never grateful. I know you don't consider Tibet should be a part of China mainly because China is communist, which means no political democracy. However, unlike Taiwan, Tibet was a very backward place, maybe you think communism is an evil system, but compared with how Tibetans used to be in charge of themselves, communism IS better, don't forget this system has been competing with Capitalism for years, and it hasn't lost yet.

Besides, during the recent history Tibet has never been admitted as an independent country by any other government unlike Taiwan. And it has developped a close relationship with China thousands years ago. And the main government took it as a part of the mainland during Yuan Dynasty, since then, Tibet has always been a part of China. However, the primary problem is about how the present government took the charge of it. Maybe it is true that our government did in a violent way, but I myself believe if a place always belongs to a country, it shouldn't be independent just because of the change of the government, so the government should make every possible effort to prevent it. America's government changes at most every 8 years, should Americans re-divide the country because of that? If Lincoln could start a civil war to protect the unification of America, then the Chinese government didn't do anything wrong to keep Tibet a part of China. If human rights should be beyond the unification, then the US would have been two countries long time ago.

So all you need to do is to visit Tibet, see if they really live a terrible life as Dalai Lama has been claiming, and read some history books about Tibet. And finally, please do not protest the Olympic Games, the Olympic is about peace, and it has nothing to do with politics, and holding a succeful Olympic has been the dreams of most of the Chinese people. Besides, you always claims that you want to know more about our country, and this is a great chance, so don't lose it because of political reasons, the Olympic Games is not only the government's Games, it's my people's Games. So if you have a passion for Chinese culture and Chinese people, please support Beijing 2008!

[VanHiscers]

Sorry that the Grammar of the last paragraph is a little messy.

the dream, you always claim

[star-warrior]

I'm for keeping the Olympics a sporting event only. It's a pity that many an Olympic games has been marred by politics, like the Moscow and Los Angeles games that I can remember.

We want to see athletes doing athletics. There is plenty of time for politics before and after the games. But I guess activists want to get the maximum publicity out of this as they can.

[Agent-Neon]

I do feel for the Chinese people who were in no way responsible for the actions of their government in regards to Tibet. In the same way I feel for the people of the Middle East, or Russia or even the United States who are misrepresented by their nation's foreign policy or dominant ideologies. It took me a long, long time to distil my anger at the US government for their operations in South America during the 60s and 70s which so affected those dear to me and for so many other actions which I found morally detestable, from my general perception of the American public and who they are as people.

That being said, people are free to protest about whatever they wish. It may be hypocritical, it may not be fair, it may be obstructive (I believe that's the point) but it's a form of dialogue which is important. Furthermore, you can't declare when and where protest is acceptable because that would undermine its basic premise. Personally the timing of the Beijing protests seem a touch ill-conceived considering the Tibet situation has been a long-standing one for quite a while. I mean I'm sure there are people who did not know a thing about Tibet until now, which is a bit... questionable - however if they want to protest, that's their prerogative.

I'm not sure if I agree with your assertion that the people of Tibet are better off or that they should be grateful to the Chinese government because I'm a terrible idealist and like to believe that only they know what is best for them. To draw a crude comparison, that part of your post echoed with a time when the Australian government tried to "help" indigenous people by removing them from their families and attempting to assimilate them into white society all in an attempt to "civilise" them and "better their lives". Let me tell you, it didn't prove tremendously successful and our government has only recently (this year in fact) offered a formal apology to these Aborigines.

[writerken]

I'm for keeping the Olympics a sporting event only. It's a pity that many an Olympic games has been marred by politics, like the Moscow and Los Angeles games that I can remember.

We want to see athletes doing athletics. There is plenty of time for politics before and after the games. But I guess activists want to get the maximum publicity out of this as they can.

You'd think differently if it was your home they knocked down in order to build the stadium and Olympic village, without any means of complaint or compensation, or anywhere to live.

[W10 Chubb]

I'm for keeping the Olympics a sporting event only. It's a pity that many an Olympic games has been marred by politics, like the Moscow and Los Angeles games that I can remember.

We want to see athletes doing athletics. There is plenty of time for politics before and after the games. But I guess activists want to get the maximum publicity out of this as they can.

I couldn't feel more strongly that you are wrong - the Olympics in Berlin in 1936 was not right then and it isn't right now - China is a totalitarian regime that has no regard for human rights - the IOC should have thrown their bid out - not supported it.

As for the propaganda from our 'pure Chinese friend' - the people of Tibet never wanted to be part of greater China, never wanted your troops or your people there. They never asked to be ethnically cleansed or to have their culture slowly destroyed. It doesn't matter how backward they are or how they live or what they think - China had no right to invade them - and I fully support the Free Tibet movement (although returning it to a theocracy would not be my choice!). I also support the violence that the free tibet movement is instigating as well. Freedom is never given - it is always taken!

[Harke the Heretic]

People's Republic of China has no right to occupy Tibet, and the Tibetans don't want the Chinese there. They should do the honorable thing and leave.

Should people protest at the Olympics? I won’t stop them. The Olympics are a corrupt institute that among other excesses covers unprecedented private expenses for a bunch of already exorbitantly overpaid ne’er-do-wells.

Why entire cities can be restructured for a festival that lasts for less then three weeks, is something I refuse to understand. Especially given that governments can not normally be bothered to muster such effort for the benefit of their peoples.

Did the ancient Greeks have a festival for sacrificing corrupt officials? If they had, let’s replace the Olympics with that.

[star-warrior]

You'd think differently if it was your home they knocked down in order to build the stadium and Olympic village, without any means of complaint or compensation, or anywhere to live.

I am more aware of the situation than you think. Before the Olympics were even mentioned, there was the Three Gorges project, and before that, there was the expansion of the Shenzhen area from what was farmland when I was born in the early 70's to the metropolis you hear about when there is news about China's economy. Those lands and houses were confiscated by the government to build what they did today. It's communism you're up against, and that's how the system operated.

[star-warrior]

I couldn't feel more strongly that you are wrong - the Olympics in Berlin in 1936 was not right then and it isn't right now - China is a totalitarian regime that has no regard for human rights - the IOC should have thrown their bid out - not supported it.

Maybe I can drag up some human rights abuses from Britain's recent past as a dsqualifyer for the 2012 games. The Amritsar Massacar maybe, the documented use of concentration camps in the Boer War, maybe, or even the trafficking of slaves in the seventeenth and eighteeth centuries.

As for the propaganda from our 'pure Chinese friend' - the people of Tibet never wanted to be part of greater China, never wanted your troops or your people there. They never asked to be ethnically cleansed or to have

Ethnically cleansed? Tibetans are still in Tibet as far as I know.

Why aren't you campaigning for the total return of Australia to the Aborigines? Or, Hawaii and New Zealand to their indigenous peoples?

their culture slowly destroyed. It doesn't matter how backward they are or how they live or what they think - China had no right to invade them -
and I fully support the Free Tibet movement (although returning it to a theocracy would not be my choice!). I also support the violence that the free tibet movement is instigating as well. Freedom is never given - it is always taken!

Then you also must support Arab bombings of Israelis. You can be a hypocrite about these things.

[VanHiscers]

You'd think differently if it was your home they knocked down in order to build the stadium and Olympic village, without any means of complaint or compensation, or anywhere to live.

I agree with most of what you've said, and I'm glad that I'm not a native of Beijing who happends to live around the mid-golden line of Beijing, because that's where the Nest and the Water Cube are built.

However, the government did pay the people who have to move, and gave them enough time to find a new place to live. But that's true they didn't have an option, star-warrior has said, that's how the system works.

[W10 Chubb]

Maybe I can drag up some human rights abuses from Britain's recent past as a dsqualifyer for the 2012 games. The Amritsar Massacar maybe, the documented use of concentration camps in the Boer War, maybe, or even the trafficking of slaves in the seventeenth and eighteeth centuries.

They are all good reasons to stop the games being held here in 2012 - if you set up a petition I'll sign it!

Ethnically cleansed? Tibetans are still in Tibet as far as I know.

Why aren't you campaigning for the total return of Australia to the Aborigines? Or, Hawaii and New Zealand to their indigenous peoples?

People are being forcable removed from Tibet and relocated and people are being moved into the area to dissolve Tibetan identity - thats ethnic cleansing. As for the campaigning for Australia and New Zealand the post didn't mention them thats why I didn't - but the ethnic cleansing there was wrong and unjustifiable.

[Telstra]

China's claim of sovereignty over Tibet extends back to the 13th century, when both nations were part of the Mongol Empire.

[VanHiscers]

I couldn't feel more strongly that you are wrong - the Olympics in Berlin in 1936 was not right then and it isn't right now - China is a totalitarian regime that has no regard for human rights - the IOC should have thrown their bid out - not supported it.

As for the propaganda from our 'pure Chinese friend' - the people of Tibet never wanted to be part of greater China, never wanted your troops or your people there. They never asked to be ethnically cleansed or to have their culture slowly destroyed. It doesn't matter how backward they are or how they live or what they think - China had no right to invade them - and I fully support the Free Tibet movement (although returning it to a theocracy would not be my choice!). I also support the violence that the free tibet movement is instigating as well. Freedom is never given - it is always taken!

I don't know from where you got the information, but as far as I know, Tibetan people are growing, even faster than Chinese people, because they're legally free from our "One-Child Policy". Besides, only a few Chinese people live in Tibet.

And about the rest of your words, as you're from London, so I want to ask you a question.

I have had two Scottish teachers, and they would feel so pissed off when they were mis-called English, because we Chinese people still translate the UK as the English Kingdom. As I've been told, most of Scottish people hate being a part of the UK, even though the UK is very very democratic. So do you agree that Scottish people use violence to take their freedom back?

[VanHiscers]

China's claim of sovereignty over Tibet extends back to the 13th century, when both nations were part of the Mongol Empire.

You're absolute right, but after that, we had Ming Dynasty, the whole country was governed again by Chinese people, then Qing Dynasty, governed by Manchurians, and then The Republic of China, governed by Chinese people...But during all those, we always had Tibet as a part of the land.

[W10 Chubb]

I don't know from where you got the information, but as far as I know, Tibetan people are growing, even faster than Chinese people, because they're legally free from our "One-Child Policy". Besides, only a few Chinese people live in Tibet.

And about the rest of your words, as you're from London, so I want to ask you a question.

I have had two Scottish teachers, and they would feel so pissed off when they were mis-called English, because we Chinese people still translate the UK as the English Kingdom. As I've been told, most of Scottish people hate being a part of the UK, even though the UK is very very democratic. So do you agree that Scottish people use violence to take their freedom back?

They have their own first minister and parliament elected by popular vote.

They don't need to use violence - they can hold a referendum and vote to leave - I understand that there are calls for this to take place in the near future - and if they do vote to leave the Union - good luck to them - it will mean the £13.5 billion pounds England subsidies them with can be spent elsewhere.

Why don't you suggest the same for Tibet - are they allowed to vote - haven't heard about an election being held there recently - what was the results? Which parties stood - what were their policies? Who won?

[star-warrior]

Relations with Tibet go back even longer. The Tang dynasty (c.618-960AD) sent a couple of Chinese pincesses there to marry Tibetan royalty.

[kallipolis]

The pro-China lobbyists might well consider that there is a simple solution that would address any thought of loss of Chinese face, when granting Tibet full autonomy with an ethnic Tibetan administration and leader, within the confines of the People's Republic of China.

Withdrawing the large numbers of Chinese colonists, special police, regular troops and Chinese officials from Tibet with the understanding that the Tibetan people would administer their own internal matters, and also be represented at the highest levels of Chinese decision making, would address some of the very real concerns of the Tibetan people.

It serves no purpose to utilise the apparent misdeeds of other countries during the distant past, as a means to justify the behaviour of Chinese officials in Tibet. China should address the needs of the Tibetan people in such a manner that the Tibetan people can feel comfortable with their handling of their own domestic affairs, and at the same time permit China to relax in knowing that Tibet is no longer a thorn in the side of the Chinese Government.

China needs to take a big step of faith in the direction of permitting Tibet to begin a process towards establishing an authentic autonomy, as part and parcel of the People's Republic of China.

[star-warrior]

W10 Chubb: do you suport the Arab violence against Israel? How about Al Qaeda in Afghanistan?

[VanHiscers]

Relations with Tibet go back even longer. The Tang dynasty (c.618-960AD) sent a couple of Chinese pincesses there to marry Tibetan royalty.

Wow, you know so much about Chinese History, the first princess was named Wencheng, and the Palace (We call it in Chinese Budala Gong, but don't know the English name) in Lhasa was originally built for her, so before it was called the Temple of Princess Wencheng. However, Tibet was not officially a part of China then.

[star-warrior]

The pro-China lobbyists might well consider that there is a simple solution that would address any thought of loss of Chinese face, when granting Tibet full autonomy with an ethnic Tibetan administration and leader, within the confines of the People's Republic of China.

Tibet is already an 'autonomous region'. Like Xinjiang Uighur, NingXia and Guangxi and Inner Mongolia

Withdrawing the large numbers of Chinese colonists, special police, regular troops and Chinese officials from Tibet with the understanding that the Tibetan people would administer their own internal matters, and also be represented at the highest levels of Chinese decision making, would address some of the very real concerns of the Tibetan people.

Tibetans who join the communist aparatchiks are in the government.

It serves no purpose to utilise the apparent misdeeds of other countries during the distant past, as a means to justify the behaviour of Chinese officials in Tibet. China should address the needs of the Tibetan people in such a manner that the Tibetan people can feel comfortable with their handling of their own domestic affairs, and at the same time permit China to relax in knowing that Tibet is no longer a thorn in the side of the Chinese Government.

It's not justification. It is to put into perspective and highlight double standards .

China needs to take a big step of faith in the direction of permitting Tibet to begin a process towards establishing an authentic autonomy, as part and parcel of the People's Republic of China.

What you suggest still means Tibet is under Chinese control.

[star-warrior]

Wow, you know so much about Chinese History, the first princess was named Wencheng, and the Palace (We call it in Chinese Budala Gong, but don't know the English name) in Lhasa was originally built for her, so before it was called the Temple of Princess Wencheng. However, Tibet was not officially a part of China then.

I have tv.

[W10 Chubb]

W10 Chubb: do you suport the Arab violence against Israel? How about Al Qaeda in Afghanistan?

i don't understand - in what context is the violence - do you mean internal attacks from their own citizens or external attacks from other states?

Do I believe that citizens have the right to violently overthrow their government - you bet.

As for Al Qaeda in Afghanistan - not sure what point you are asking me about it or what point you are making.

[kallipolis]

The reasoning that suggests that because it was so in the distant past, it should be so once again is in direct contradiction to the manner in which the human race conducts its understandings of ethnic boundaries.

The boundaries of ethnic groups continue to be in free flow, as a result of changing patterns of understanding as to who should administer the affairs of any given country.

That Yugoslavia has transformed itself with some very real troubles in the process, should inform us that fixed boundaries are a fantasy for those who yearn for self determination. Yet all the former Yugoslav republics are now seeking membership of the European Union. Transformation and reorganisation into different facets of the same human reality.

The birth and rise of the European Union out of the ashes of the Second World War and the dismantling of the European administered colonial empires, does inform us that the human person embraces the need for change, as those needs present them self.

Let us not be afraid of addressing the very real concerns of people that they should be able to administer their own affairs, within the context of their own tribal group.

It would not be unreasonable to say that the People's Republic of China will eventually fragment, as a result of the growing power of the Chinese regions arising out of the developing material prosperity of the Chinese people.

With growing prosperity the Communist Party of China will ultimately have to reinvent itself as a democratic political movement, or go the way of all despotic regimes.

Let us recognise that the people of southern China and northern China are well aware of the differences in culture, language and understanding that relationship must change to reflect changing understandings.

[VanHiscers]

i don't understand - in what context is the violence - do you mean internal attacks from their own citizens or external attacks from other states?

Do I believe that citizens have the right to violently overthrow their government - you bet.

As for Al Qaeda in Afghanistan - not sure what point you are asking me about it or what point you are making.

You said you agreed with the Tibetans on the violence they've used against innocent Chinese people during the movement, and I think that's the context he meant.

[valis23]

The pro-China lobbyists might well consider that there is a simple solution that would address any thought of loss of Chinese face, when granting Tibet full autonomy with an ethnic Tibetan administration and leader, within the confines of the People's Republic of China.

Withdrawing the large numbers of Chinese colonists, special police, regular troops and Chinese officials from Tibet with the understanding that the Tibetan people would administer their own internal matters, and also be represented at the highest levels of Chinese decision making, would address some of the very real concerns of the Tibetan people.

This is actually what the Dalai Lama has called for. He is not and has not sought total separation from China, but rather autonomy. He acknowledges that China has helped Tibetans in many ways.

Somehow I suspect the Tibetans would be interested in getting rid of the 20-square-mile nuclear weapons plant / nuclear dump China has graced them with, but who knows? Maybe the Tibetans don't even mind that?

[kallipolis]

Star Warrior

Tibet is an autonomous region, in name only.

Tibetans who have been bought off by the Chinese Government, are considered traitors and unacceptable to the Tibetan people.

As the exchanges on this forum witness, double standards are determined by the willingness of people to bring their own prejudices to bear.

Tibet within the confines of the People's Republic of China, does not equate to Chinese control, but a recognition that Tibet is part of the People's Republic of China.

[W10 Chubb]

You said you agreed with the Tibetans on the violence they've used against innocent Chinese people during the movement, and I think that's the context he meant.

Hey, I thought you would be telling me what the political parties are in Tibet and what they stand for and when is the next election - and how they go about having a referendum - I did ask!

As for the violence against the 'innocent Chinese' if I was in the Tibetans situation you bet I would kick off like that - thats what happens after years of oppression!

Thought you might like this website - its for the Scottish Parliament http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/ - you can find links to all the different parties and their policies there - can you post the Tiibetan one please.

[kallipolis]

can you post the Tiibetan one please.

I am waiting, in eager anticipation of a credible reply.

[VanHiscers]

Hey, I thought you would be telling me what the political parties are in Tibet and what they stand for and when is the next election - and how they go about having a referendum - I did ask!

As for the violence against the 'innocent Chinese' if I was in the Tibetans situation you bet I would kick off like that - thats what happens after years of oppression!

Thought you might like this website - its for the Scottish Parliament http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/ - you can find links to all the different parties and their policies there - can you post the Tiibetan one please.

Well, by the post you quoted, I just wanted to tell you what's my understanding of star warrior's words.

I didn't answer your question because there's no other party but Communist Party in Tibet, and no, they can't vote to leave China. However, if one day Scotland really wants to leave the Union, I don't really think it wouldn't be easier than that in Tibet issue. And I bet England would do everything to prevent it. We shouldn't be so confident in democracy until we really see how it works with our own eyes as we see everything.

[VanHiscers]

Sorry...I wouldn't think it would be easier...

[VanHiscers]

I used a double negative in #30, that's wrong, #31 is what I meant to say.

[W10 Chubb]

Well, by the post you quoted, I just wanted to tell you what's my understanding of star warrior's words.

I didn't answer your question because there's no other party but Communist Party in Tibet, and no, they can't vote to leave China. However, if one day Scotland really wants to leave the Union, I don't really think it wouldn't be easier than that in Tibet issue. And I bet England would do everything to prevent it. We shouldn't be so confident in democracy until we really see how it works with our own eyes as we see everything.

They did vote - to stay in the Union. And the last vote was to set up devolution. Do you really think that if Scotland voted in a referendum to dissolve the Union that England would send in thousands of troops to force them to stay - wow - i don't think we have that many troops (as they are all abroad at the moment) - gosh if we did that we would be condemned internationally have our membership of the European Union suspended it would be all over the free newspapers and on the numerous free news channels.

Just to let you know - the vast number of scottish members of parliament are members of the governing party in england - so they might have something to say about it - unless of course your saying that the scottish mps that sit in wesminster would support attacks on scottish citizens? (thats right - scottish members of parliament can vote on legislation that affects england - but english members of parliament can't vote on scottish affairs!

how many members of the chinese parliament does tibet have? do any of them sit in chinese government positions?

[W10 Chubb]

i have to go out - this was very enjoyable - and I shall return.

Tibet is like Scotland - god what a joke!

[WYSIWYG]

That was the biggest load of BS I have ever read on Tibet. No mention of the Chinese Invasion, or the fact that China wants to eliminate the Tibetan way of life and its culture!!!! China is INTENTIONALLY bringing in Han Chinese to replace the Tibetans.

Want to know more about Tibet? The truth? Go here: http://tibetanuprising.org/

[unclaimedblessing]

Tibetans are distinct from the Chinese.
They might belong to the same general racial grouping, but they have their own culture, language, alphabet and religious beliefs.
Tibetans by choice have isolated themselves from the rest of the world and their religious beliefs have prevented them from having a large (modern) army.
That doesn't mean China has the right to incorporate them without a majority of Tibetan consent.
It's not only government propaganda that drives this train. Individuals like Richard Gere and others have spent extensive time in Tibet observing the situation and reported atrocities against the Tibetan people. Gere is in no way a spokesperson for the US Govt, it's quite the opposite.
Does the number of Chinese nationals attacked in Tibet equal those in the massacre at Tiannamen Square? Does Chinas support of the oppressive Sudanese and Burmese governments reflect their enlightened regard of peoples rights?
Most of us probably respect the efforts of young athletes, around the world, training and sacrificing to qualify for the Olympics. It would be a shame for them to miss their opportunity because of a boycott. But the Olympics are also a big money and prestige generator for the host country. If they weren't, there wouldn't be the aggressive competition to host. Boycotting the Olymics would be an effective peaceful and economic way of showing the worlds displeasure for Chinese control of Tibet.

[cAndId]

First, regarding the Olympics, I think its unfair to the athletes to boycott the Olympic games just because of the host country. The only people punished are the athletes.

I find it very difficult to believe that Tibetan monks (the people who would not even step on an ant) would condone violence of any kind. However, the Tibetan people have every right to fight for their freedoms. They are under an oppressive regime (organ harvesting of Falun Gong political prisoners, state control of media, censorship of the internet, imprisonment of people calling for religious/political freedoms etc) and they, like any of us, want freedom and basic human rights.

VanHiscers, it is terrible to think that they should be grateful for the help of the Chinese when they clearly do not want it. Respecting other nation's sovereignty and cultures means that we do not step in and try to 'improve' their lives. It is not our place to tell other people how to live. The Chinese government has no moral right to control the Tibetan people.

You are obviously referring (im assuming) to a mistake made by a German newspaper that published photos of non-chinese police mis-handling protesters, well that has since been found to be false, and in fact, I cannot even recall it even being brought up in the Canadian media before it was found to be false.

The Tibetan people have a democratic government-in-exile in India, the Dalai Lama is proving that his people want a democratic government, and he has a long history of promoting peace. The Chinese propaganda machine, want people to believe that a Tibet controlled by the Dalai Lama would be a theocracy with even less freedoms... (a legitimate concern if any theocracy were to be setup) for one thing, the type of theocracy that Tibet's religion would set up would be far more free and peaceful than we would expect when we hear 'religious dictatorship', but still, the Dalai Lama and his fellow elected government officials, have proven that they want Democracy and freedom.

To use my own country as an example, some Quebecors want complete independence from Canada, there was even a pro-communist terrorist group called the FLQ that launched violent campaigns to try and gain independence. Canada reacted the way a civilized country should have, they did not interfere aside from funding a political/democratic campaign as Quebec held a referendum. They voted twice in two decades (both times they voted to stay with Canada). If they had voted to leave, Canada was prepared to let them go, we would have tried to convince them to stay, but ultimately, if they voted as a nation to leave, we would have let them. Evidence of this, for example, was that the Prime Minister pulled out expensive military equipment in case Quebec were to have declared independence.

No nation has the authority to dominate another nation. China has no authority in Tibet.

[jav1231]

I support boycotting the Olympics because it will be a black eye to the government of China. I've always felt our relationship with China was not just flawed but hypocritical.

[Croynan]

The violent conflict in Tibet has been going on for a while, however I believe, unlike how other foreign news are reported in western countries, you only have heard of one version of it: Some Tibetans tries to gain the independence of Tibet in a peaceful way, but Chinese government banned them in a violent way.

A few days ago, I couldn't tell if that was true or not, but now, after collecting news from home and abroad with my Firefox Ladder that can go over the Great Firewall, I could tell you that is ridiculous.

Before I start, I hope you have a good idea of telling propagandas from truth, western media are not in the charge of the governments, but they do report propagandas sometimes. So please check out the websites from which you got to know the news, and pay attention to the photos they use. Some media have used false photos or twisted explanations for real photos to report how Chinese government "reacted" to this issue. While actually, in Tibet, the tibetans, who's following Dailai Lama, or maybe other Tibetan independence supporters that I don't know, attacked innocent Chinese people, and that's why our army was there, to save and to protect our people. If you don't believe what I've said, ask the westerners who was in Tibet during the event. And about the photos, check out Youtube.com, there's a video about it.

Honestly, I don't really like Tibetans, the Chinese people made there a better place to live, built a railway, and gave young Tibetans chances to have good education, even better than the Chineses', nevertheless they are never grateful. I know you don't consider Tibet should be a part of China mainly because China is communist, which means no political democracy. However, unlike Taiwan, Tibet was a very backward place, maybe you think communism is an evil system, but compared with how Tibetans used to be in charge of themselves, communism IS better, don't forget this system has been competing with Capitalism for years, and it hasn't lost yet.

Besides, during the recent history Tibet has never been admitted as an independent country by any other government unlike Taiwan. And it has developped a close relationship with China thousands years ago. And the main government took it as a part of the mainland during Yuan Dynasty, since then, Tibet has always been a part of China. However, the primary problem is about how the present government took the charge of it. Maybe it is true that our government did in a violent way, but I myself believe if a place always belongs to a country, it shouldn't be independent just because of the change of the government, so the government should make every possible effort to prevent it. America's government changes at most every 8 years, should Americans re-divide the country because of that? If Lincoln could start a civil war to protect the unification of America, then the Chinese government didn't do anything wrong to keep Tibet a part of China. If human rights should be beyond the unification, then the US would have been two countries long time ago.

So all you need to do is to visit Tibet, see if they really live a terrible life as Dalai Lama has been claiming, and read some history books about Tibet. And finally, please do not protest the Olympic Games, the Olympic is about peace, and it has nothing to do with politics, and holding a succeful Olympic has been the dreams of most of the Chinese people. Besides, you always claims that you want to know more about our country, and this is a great chance, so don't lose it because of political reasons, the Olympic Games is not only the government's Games, it's my people's Games. So if you have a passion for Chinese culture and Chinese people, please support Beijing 2008!

unless i am mistaken, i believe Communisum lasted in the Soviet Union (Russia) a total of seventy years and then collapsed in or about 1991.

eM.

[jav1231]

but compared with how Tibetans used to be in charge of themselves, communism IS better, don't forget this system has been competing with Capitalism for years, and it hasn't lost yet.

Communism is a system of government. Capitalism is an economic system.

Granted, one might argue that its better than it was but it's not better than they desire. That is freedom. Freedom should always trump communism.

As for boycotting the Olympics, I can't find the quote but IOC leaders have made the connection between politics and the games before. Now they want to separate the two. I don't trust the IOC's calls for honoring the athletes. I believe the games are more about money than anything.

China is a human rights disaster. They, frankly, have no business hosting the Olympics in the first place.

[rpbs]

Seems to me that "van hiscers" must be an official spokesperson for the Chineese government.

[Jeimuzu]

If you're pure Chinese, telling us we don't get the full picture... maybe true, but then again where are you getting your information? I was under the impression that China generally only reported what it wanted to.

[metta]

Communism is a system of government. Capitalism is an economic system.

And when you look at China, economically, I really don't see much communism there. Living in California, I know people that spend a good portion of the year in China, and they frequently tell me that everything over there is just about making money. I recently saw a story on the news of couples that have moved to China from the US because they can make a good living there and it costs very little to live there.

I do wish that China would implement stronger environmental regulations. As a communist government, you would think that they would have the ability to do so. But instead, the Chinese governement rejects it.

I do realize that there are a couple good companies in China but the government should step in to require companies to meet minimum standards that protect the health and well being of its people and the environment.

In regards to Tibet, China should not force their government on them. If the people of Tibet want to be a part of China that is fine. Anything else is not.

[star-warrior]

If the Scots decide to become a separate nation, I will not be able to bring meat products like Haggis into England. Just imagine all the haggis smugglers. Oh, and having to present one's passport every time you drive through the border control will be a drag.

From a Jewish and muslim point of view, all you pork eaters are unclean. Moreover, eating shellfish like prawns, lobsters aren't very Jewish either. You can find pidgeon, quail, pheasents, wild boar and wild duck on sale in markets across the UK, hung up with hares still in their skins. I've bought a capon for christmas before. I've bought quails eggs, eaten snake and frogs legs. I've yet to try snails, or horsemeat favoured by the French. Just because dogs, cats and rats are eaten not only by the Chinese, but also in Africa, and are a source of protein, why does this make singling out dog so special? When you're so divorced from the food chain as to buy your meat ready packed and processed, you can afford to be disgusted. For cultures which rely on hunting wild animals, or traditionally eaten certain types of animals, I don't see why disgust from your point of view makes a whole society or culture abhorrent.

[Moderator Note: Strikethrough portion of this post is replicated in SPLIT thread.]

With regards to the death of communism in Russia, ideas just don't die. They linger a long slow death, which may be fanned from the coals of memory into flame of another generation. The old ideaology is still within the ruling elite of Russia. The state control of stuff is still there, albeit in another name or guise.

[joeslifeyork]

The violent conflict in Tibet has been going on for a while, however I believe, unlike how other foreign news are reported in western countries, you only have heard of one version of it: Some Tibetans tries to gain the independence of Tibet in a peaceful way, but Chinese government banned them in a violent way.

A few days ago, I couldn't tell if that was true or not, but now, after collecting news from home and abroad with my Firefox Ladder that can go over the Great Firewall, I could tell you that is ridiculous.

Before I start, I hope you have a good idea of telling propagandas from truth, western media are not in the charge of the governments, but they do report propagandas sometimes. So please check out the websites from which you got to know the news, and pay attention to the photos they use. Some media have used false photos or twisted explanations for real photos to report how Chinese government "reacted" to this issue. While actually, in Tibet, the tibetans, who's following Dailai Lama, or maybe other Tibetan independence supporters that I don't know, attacked innocent Chinese people, and that's why our army was there, to save and to protect our people. If you don't believe what I've said, ask the westerners who was in Tibet during the event. And about the photos, check out Youtube.com, there's a video about it.

Honestly, I don't really like Tibetans, the Chinese people made there a better place to live, built a railway, and gave young Tibetans chances to have good education, even better than the Chineses', nevertheless they are never grateful. I know you don't consider Tibet should be a part of China mainly because China is communist, which means no political democracy. However, unlike Taiwan, Tibet was a very backward place, maybe you think communism is an evil system, but compared with how Tibetans used to be in charge of themselves, communism IS better, don't forget this system has been competing with Capitalism for years, and it hasn't lost yet.

Besides, during the recent history Tibet has never been admitted as an independent country by any other government unlike Taiwan. And it has developped a close relationship with China thousands years ago. And the main government took it as a part of the mainland during Yuan Dynasty, since then, Tibet has always been a part of China. However, the primary problem is about how the present government took the charge of it. Maybe it is true that our government did in a violent way, but I myself believe if a place always belongs to a country, it shouldn't be independent just because of the change of the government, so the government should make every possible effort to prevent it. America's government changes at most every 8 years, should Americans re-divide the country because of that? If Lincoln could start a civil war to protect the unification of America, then the Chinese government didn't do anything wrong to keep Tibet a part of China. If human rights should be beyond the unification, then the US would have been two countries long time ago.

So all you need to do is to visit Tibet, see if they really live a terrible life as Dalai Lama has been claiming, and read some history books about Tibet. And finally, please do not protest the Olympic Games, the Olympic is about peace, and it has nothing to do with politics, and holding a succeful Olympic has been the dreams of most of the Chinese people. Besides, you always claims that you want to know more about our country, and this is a great chance, so don't lose it because of political reasons, the Olympic Games is not only the government's Games, it's my people's Games. So if you have a passion for Chinese culture and Chinese people, please support Beijing 2008!

REally... your argument is pathetic.

The British built railways and brought work to India etc.. but it's still called occupation. It still involved the occupation of a foreign land and exploitation of the people.

You critise the way the Tibetians govern themselves.. but it's not for you, nor China to condemn how they ruled themselves, they were happy with it, they liked it, and they want that way back.

To use that as an argument is just a joke.

You say that communism hasnt lost out to capitalism and democracy yet... but it has. There are many nations in the world which used to be communist, which are now democratic and free. Capitalism has taken over in those nations.

Either way you paint it, China has taken over another nation, and the people of said nation are pissed... they want their independance... and i, for one, fully support them in their fight for that independance.

I can see no wrong with them using the Olympics as platform to voice their anger. It's a fantastic opportunity and i would urge everyone to boycott the games until China moderates its actions over the Tibetian issue.

[joeslifeyork]

Well, by the post you quoted, I just wanted to tell you what's my understanding of star warrior's words.

I didn't answer your question because there's no other party but Communist Party in Tibet, and no, they can't vote to leave China. However, if one day Scotland really wants to leave the Union, I don't really think it wouldn't be easier than that in Tibet issue. And I bet England would do everything to prevent it. We shouldn't be so confident in democracy until we really see how it works with our own eyes as we see everything.

Agreed. Democracy isn't a perfect, all-solving principle... but it is by far the fairest on this planet.

Communism works great on paper... and thats it. Get it into the real world and it's riddled with problems.

So is democracy, but far fewer problems than communism.

How anyone can stand there and slate democracy and defend communism is beyond any logical explanation. [Inappropriate verbiage: Removed by Moderator]

[star-warrior]

But Joe, once the Olympics are over, and you've had your boycott, Tibet will still be under Chinese control.

Remember the student crackdown in TianAnMen Square? Years later, the communist government is still there. The only thing which may unbalance China is an economic toppling. A political topling isn't going to happen soon.

[joeslifeyork]

But Joe, once the Olympics are over, and you've had your boycott, Tibet will still be under Chinese control.

Remember the student crackdown in TianAnMen Square? Years later, the communist government is still there. The only thing which may unbalance China is an economic toppling. A political topling isn't going to happen soon.

Indeed, but the Olympics is a good platform to raise the situation into many peoples eyes and minds.

If it makes a fool of china, and makes more people aware of the Tibetians plight, it's a good thing. I never said that a political happening isnt going to happen soon... i said that id support anything which helped free Tibet from the clasps of a brutal and evil government.

[star-warrior]

So it's sod the athletes then?

What's the point of the 4 year build up, the training, the expense, the selection process, the team building only to be told by your government that no, you can't go.

[joeslifeyork]

So it's sod the athletes then?

What's the point of the 4 year build up, the training, the expense, the selection process, the team building only to be told by your government that no, you can't go.

Whats the point in putting sport before human lives?

China is a threat to the whole world. Militarily, economically, environmentally....

China is a threat to the people of Tibet and their way of life. Their language, their culture... all slowly being wiped out by China.

If we cant sacrifice 4 years, some expense and some team building to save these things... then whats the point?

The Olympics will be held again, some place else... London 2012, elsewhere after that... but once Tibet's culture has gone... it's gone.


Are you seriously suggesting that we sell out principles just cos it will mean losing some money? That's shameful.

[Telstra]

id support anything which helped free Tibet .

violence will not be tolerated.