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  1. #1
    JUB Addict gewhite3's Avatar
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    More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Interesting how these scumbags denounce the very thing they supported after destroying so many lives. A little too little, too late if you ask me. At least they are coming out publicly about it but that's the only good thing I can say about it.

    Source Article: Advocate.com

    Five former leaders of "ex-gay" ministries Down Under have publicly condemned converstion/reparative therapy, according to the Sydney Star Observer.

    The Aussie leaders said they were inspired to make their comments by the recent apologies of three former "ex-gay" leaders at an "ex-gay" survivors conference in Los Angeles.

    "There was not one person that I met or worked with who, in any genuine way, achieved the fundamental transformation from homosexual to heterosexual," Paul Martin, former leader of Exodus in Melbourne, told the Observer.

    According to some of the former "ex-gay" leaders, conversion therapy teachers in Australia believe men become gay because they had emotionally distant fathers. Their therapy included "minders," who would follow the enrollees to make sure they were behaving themselves.

    "Some people have suicided," Anthony Venn Brown, who spent 22 years trying to be straight, told the newspaper. "But most people have now come to terms with their sexuality. There is no success rate [with conversion therapy]." (The Advocate)
    Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness!!!

  2. #2
    The gay gargoyle
    G-Lexington's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    It doesn't matter how many ex-gays become ex-ex-gays. As long as homosexuality exists, as long as people feel desperate for themselves (or their loved ones) to live heterosexual lives, and as long as there's money to be made, there will exist people willing to take that money to convert gays into straights.

    Lex

  3. #3
    Circe Infuria
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    "Some people have suicided," Anthony Venn Brown, who spent 22 years trying to be straight, told the newspaper. "But most people have now come to terms with their sexuality. There is no success rate [with conversion therapy]."

    What a sad price to pay.

  4. #4
    JUB Addict gewhite3's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    It's very sad. It's impossible to know just how many lives these people have ruined.
    Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness!!!

  5. #5
    The_Pianist
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by gewhite3 View Post
    It's very sad. It's impossible to know just how many lives these people have ruined.
    And continue to. It's reprehensible.

  6. #6

    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    I have only sympathy for these people. Yes they helped other people hate themselves, but no one forced those people to go to an ex gay clinic. It was their own self loathing and the message society taught them, that they were despicable.

    I have no problem with these people as long as the y have a conscious and try to undue the institutional contraception they help create with the ex-gay movement.

    More hate won't fix this, only love and teach people to understand and accept our humanity and basic goodness.

  7. #7
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    I hope they live in shame their whole lives. I hope they choke on their appology.

    I hope they see how many peope they inspired to kill themselves and well.. kill themselves. The world would be a better place without them.

    Their own cowardice lead them to hurt millions of people and their very existence was used as a weapon against those of us who aren't pathetic losers and had the spines to come out.

    Awful, horrible excuses for human beings.

    Dreadful bottom feeders.

    I won't feel sorry for them ever.
    Gentlemen.... Thank you.

  8. #8
    ravenstar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Venn Brown is a hypocrite of the highest order. He made millions with his Hillsong Religion, spewing homophobic bullshit,. I had no respect for him as the leader of Hillsong, and I have none for him now. He had the opportunity to do some real good with Hillsong and he did nothing but spew out hate.

  9. #9
    anthonyvb
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Hello from the land down under.

    I thought some of you might be interested in reading the entore press release that the Advocate article was based on.........just some more background and full statements.

    Five Former Leaders of Ex-gay Ministries in Australia Have a Change in Perspective

    Ex-gay ministries credibility around the world is being substantially challenged as an increasing number of people come out with their stories saying - it doesn’t work. In fact, reparative/conversion therapy causes harm that can take years to overcome.

    Since the release of his autobiography, ‘A Life of Unlearning’, Anthony Venn-Brown (who went through Australia’s first ex-gay program in 1972), has been collecting testimonials from people who have come out of ex-gay programs as well as former Australian leaders of Exodus. After the apologies of 3 former ex-gay leaders at the Ex-gay Survivors Conference in Los Angeles (organised by Soulforce and beyondexgay.com, he felt it was time to release these statements. Statements by these Australian leaders are now being posted around the internet.

    Why has it taken so long for people to speak up?

    Anthony gives six reasons on his blog. http://alifeofunlearning.blogspot.com/

    Paul Martin Psychologist (Former Exodus Leader – Melbourne) says
    During this time, there was not one person that I met or worked with who, in any genuine way achieved the fundamental transformation from homosexual to heterosexual they so desperately desired. The stress of attempting to change their sexual orientation however increased risk of suicidality, and absolutely led to erosion of self-esteem and increased levels of depression and self-deprecation at a very deep level.

    Vonnie Pitts (Former Christian City Church Pastor/Living Waters Leader) says
    I began my own research into the causes of homosexuality and found there was mounting evidence that sexual orientation is determined in the womb. Now I have absolutely no doubt that homosexuals are born gay and don’t need to change. If I were to see any of the people that I took through the ‘Living Waters’ program again, I would say sorry. My intentions were to help you through your struggle but I acted in ignorance.

    John Metyard (Former Exodus Asia Pacific & Living Waters Leader and on the International Advisory Board of Exodus) says
    Whereas once I was ardent in my opinion that homosexual orientation was unquestioningly a result of the 'fall' and God's intention was therefore always to heal the same-sex attracted believer and help them to be 'whole', my position is now somewhat different.

    Wendy Lawson (Former Exodus Leader Melbourne) says
    Today, more than 15 years, after I stepped down from leadership of the X-Gay ministry ‘Exodus’ I have come to know that nearly every member of that group is now living their lives openly as a homosexual person (20 people).

    Kim Brett (Former Exodus – Associate, Former Leader - Living Waters and Liberty Inc.) says
    There had been an increasing uneasiness in me since 2005 that what I was teaching was harmful to people. I had become tired and ill-at-ease with always feeling that this part of my life and others attending the group (same-sex orientated) is broken and in need of fixing. For a long time I had been witnessing peoples (and my own) growing frustration that no matter how repentant, prayerful and committed we all were to living a life as an ex-gay Christian, the changes we all sought and were taught possible never really materialised for most. Some people I knew were married and had married but most seemed to still be dealing with homosexual feelings.

    Read full statements here http://alifeofunlearning.blogspot.com/

  10. #10
    The gay gargoyle
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    >>>I have only sympathy for these people. Yes they helped other people hate themselves, but no one forced those people to go to an ex gay clinic. It was their own self loathing and the message society taught them, that they were despicable.

    Oh, come on. They hung out a shingle. They announced they could cure any homosexual for $599.95. They're like those people who sell "make your dick grow" pills, only much worse. They don't just sell sugar pills - they made people feel utterly worthless, and cost some people their lives. Had they had the guts to tell the truth - "there's nothing we can do to 'cure' homosexuality" - and send these people to someone to help them come to grips with it, these people would most likely still be alive. But no. They wanted the money. And if it meant convincing some people that the reason they were faggots was because they just weren't TRYING hard enough, hey, as long as the checks clear.

    I'm glad they've stopped.
    They never should've started.
    No sympathy from this corner.
    Not until they work at suicide hotlines and AIDS centers for at least as long as their little "center" was open.

    Lex

  11. #11
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    I'm glad they've stopped.
    They never should've started.
    No sympathy from this corner.
    Not until they work at suicide hotlines and AIDS centers for at least as long as their little "center" was open.

    Lex
    For free.

    And donate all their blood-money back to the gay community and do out-reach work with gay youth.

    And even then, I'll still hate them and wish they were dead.

    but I'm like that.
    Gentlemen.... Thank you.

  12. #12

    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    >>>I have only sympathy for these people. Yes they helped other people hate themselves, but no one forced those people to go to an ex gay clinic. It was their own self loathing and the message society taught them, that they were despicable.

    Oh, come on. They hung out a shingle. They announced they could cure any homosexual for $599.95. They're like those people who sell "make your dick grow" pills, only much worse. They don't just sell sugar pills - they made people feel utterly worthless, and cost some people their lives. Had they had the guts to tell the truth - "there's nothing we can do to 'cure' homosexuality" - and send these people to someone to help them come to grips with it, these people would most likely still be alive. But no. They wanted the money. And if it meant convincing some people that the reason they were faggots was because they just weren't TRYING hard enough, hey, as long as the checks clear.

    I'm glad they've stopped.
    They never should've started.
    No sympathy from this corner.
    Not until they work at suicide hotlines and AIDS centers for at least as long as their little "center" was open.

    Lex
    First these people were with the religous groups not the pretend psychology groups such as narth.

    Second they have relented and started campaigning against it. Here are some video testimonials that "inspired" this group to apologize. These aren't some con people who stop with one con to start another.
    http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/06/28/491
    http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/06/27/490

  13. #13
    anthonyvb
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenstar View Post
    Venn Brown is a hypocrite of the highest order. He made millions with his Hillsong Religion, spewing homophobic bullshit,. I had no respect for him as the leader of Hillsong, and I have none for him now. He had the opportunity to do some real good with Hillsong and he did nothing but spew out hate.
    Hi Ravenstar.......venn-brown here. I'm not sure where you have recieved your information from but thought it best to correct some statements you made.

    I was never on the staff at Hillsong or paid by them.

    I never made millions....from Hillsong or my own ministry.

    I never spat out homophobic bullshit

    ......and i never encouraged hate.

    Best that you check the facts before you make accusations like that.

  14. #14
    Porn Star angedelune's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    There is a line in the movie Stardust *which is EXCELLENT btw* Robert DeNiro's character the sky pirate is gay, and he says "Why would people spend so much time and effort to please people whom they don't even want to be like anyways?"
    I will PUNCH YOU IN THE JUNK!!! +3 damage BITCH!!!

  15. #15
    anthonyvb
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    >>>Oh, come on. They hung out a shingle. They announced they could cure any homosexual for $599.95. They're like those people who sell "make your dick grow" pills, only much worse. They don't just sell sugar pills - they made people feel utterly worthless, and cost some people their lives. Had they had the guts to tell the truth - "there's nothing we can do to 'cure' homosexuality" - and send these people to someone to help them come to grips with it, these people would most likely still be alive. But no. They wanted the money. And if it meant convincing some people that the reason they were faggots was because they just weren't TRYING hard enough, hey, as long as the checks clear.

    I'm glad they've stopped.
    They never should've started.
    No sympathy from this corner.
    Not until they work at suicide hotlines and AIDS centers for at least as long as their little "center" was open.

    Lex
    Hey Lex.......as far as i'm aware (and i think i'm pretty well informed about what goes in here)....none of the ministries in Australia have ever charged money to join an ex-gay group. They are all volunteer organisations. Even though this still doesn't make the groups acceptable or right it does let us know they were never motivated by money.

    It seems in the US things are different....you have people like Narth and Exodus type ministries that charge people for programs or endless years of counselling.

  16. #16
    Porn Star angedelune's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Capitalism is so much fun. You can sell anything as long as you put the right spin on it. Nothing like using the word of "God" to sell a product.
    I will PUNCH YOU IN THE JUNK!!! +3 damage BITCH!!!

  17. #17

    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyvb View Post
    Hey Lex.......as far as i'm aware (and i think i'm pretty well informed about what goes in here)....none of the ministries in Australia have ever charged money to join an ex-gay group. They are all volunteer organisations. Even though this still doesn't make the groups acceptable or right it does let us know they were never motivated by money.

    It seems in the US things are different....you have people like Narth and Exodus type ministries that charge people for programs or endless years of counselling.
    NARTH and Exodus are different though both say you can change.

    NARTH is completely secular organization (though it exists due to church referrals), they do all this fake pseduo psychology to explain, treat, and 'convert" former homosexuals to heterosexuals. These people will swindle your money

    Exodus on the other hand is a religious coalition of ex-gay groups. They will spend most of their time praying together, shamming you, reading bible verses and telling you god loves you but you must change for that love to work. While they take money (only through donations though) Exodus is a non-profit. They will swindle you just nowhere near as bad as NARTH.

    both are disgusting organizations, but I find NARTH far worse. The leaders of this organization don't have the excuse of fundamentalist religious brainwashing like Exodus, they pretend they are doctors when in reality they care nothing about science or psychology, instead they are practicing a world view and twisting reality to shape that world view.

  18. #18
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyvb View Post
    They are all volunteer organisations. Even though this still doesn't make the groups acceptable or right it does let us know they were never motivated by money.
    So they ruined people's lives for FREE.

    Wow.. how.. altruistic.






    Bunch of fucking cowards. Sorry, but words from any of you are poison.
    Gentlemen.... Thank you.

  19. #19
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    OK, so Anthony... I gotta ask.

    Now.. tell us..

    You were an ex-gay with a ministry. And as far as I can tell, there's no such thing as a "ministry" which doesn't rake in cash.

    So where did all those tax-free donations go? Did you fund the ex-gay brain-butchers or something else?

    And I checked out your site. I didn't see the words "sorry" or "appology" or "we suck as human beings" on there anywhere, although I did see Jerry Falwell referred to as "Sinere and Intelligent" and a kinda weird tribute to Tammy Faye Baker.

    I realize that you have seen the error of your ways and are now trying to make a buck as you make it right. Or maybe you're just trying to make a buck while you make yourself feel better for all the people who killed themselves thanks to you and your kind.

    Hey, we all gotta make a living.

    But tell me.. does the guilt for how many lives you've helped destroy keep you up at night or do you just not worry about the little people?
    Gentlemen.... Thank you.

  20. #20
    anthonyvb
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    yep Roland.......there are no groups like NARTH in Australia....the only ex-gay, anti-gay groups are christian based.

    the Exodus type groups here are not as powerful as the US ones for several reasons.
    1. They dont have any real success stories or poster boys
    2. They dont have financial backing
    3. they have no charismatic leaders
    4. they are not politically connected

    Despite these things though they are still causing damage to individual lives of G&L people who have been brought up in a Christian culture that veiws homosexuality as broken. thats why we have spoken out.

  21. #21
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    too little too late. God knows how many people committed sucide because they couldn't be "cured"

  22. #22
    A Prolific Love Maker!
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Give me a pound of flesh.
    I said, "Give me a pound of flesh."
    Vengence is ours is the news here.
    Two wrongs will never repair the damage.
    I hear and I undeerstand the rant,
    I hear and feel the anger about what has been done.
    But it saddens me to see that those who do such shit,
    can look back and say, "See, how they are."
    Are we not just as mired down as the old Exodus Ministry
    that we loathed?
    Can anyone see that?
    I am hated,
    maybe if I hate back, and ever more,
    it will make something better.
    Bitterness in the end only destroys the person
    who is bitter.
    Shep+
    Touch, Arouse Me, Kiss & More!
    My signature picture was designed for me by Reone.

  23. #23

    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Having undergone the entirely inadequate sort of 'ministry' myself in the U.K. I can only say that most of the folk involved in it are NOT evil or horrible but just misled. They are sincere in their beliefs and not motivated by money; in fact their ministries often operate on a shoestring budget!) That is NOT to underestimate the awful oppression and damage they can inflict but to put their foolishness into perspective. When they see the errors of their ways and go public I think we owe it to them to support them and to forgive past wrongs. They have been as much the victims of deception and lazy thinking. Their public disavowal may come at great personal cost and is clearly done to prevent further affliction and advance intelligent acceptance of homosexuality. And when it comes from such a quarter surely the message for acceptance is all the more compelling?!
    I say forgive....and believe me I have suffered at their hands.

  24. #24
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by marcuspig View Post
    I say forgive....and believe me I have suffered at their hands.
    How about we let them suffer at OUR hands for a bit and THEN call it even?

    I mean... It's not like I wanna rip their arms out of their sockets... (enough to actually do it), but maybe we can come up with some kind of electric shock machine...

    Oh, wait.. they all probably have those anyway, right?
    Gentlemen.... Thank you.

  25. #25
    Neat Monster glo-unit's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Does anyone one have any experience with the US ex-gay ministries, I'd like to know how different the experience is than the overseas ministries.
    "It's strange to have a creation out there, a deeply mutated version of yourself, running loose and screwing everything up. I wonder if this is how parents feel." Dexter Morgan

  26. #26
    anthonyvb
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Soilwork View Post
    OK, so Anthony... I gotta ask.

    Now.. tell us..

    You were an ex-gay with a ministry. And as far as I can tell, there's no such thing as a "ministry" which doesn't rake in cash.

    So where did all those tax-free donations go? Did you fund the ex-gay brain-butchers or something else?

    And I checked out your site. I didn't see the words "sorry" or "appology" or "we suck as human beings" on there anywhere, although I did see Jerry Falwell referred to as "Sinere and Intelligent" and a kinda weird tribute to Tammy Faye Baker.

    I realize that you have seen the error of your ways and are now trying to make a buck as you make it right. Or maybe you're just trying to make a buck while you make yourself feel better for all the people who killed themselves thanks to you and your kind.

    Hey, we all gotta make a living.

    But tell me.. does the guilt for how many lives you've helped destroy keep you up at night or do you just not worry about the little people?
    Hi soilwork

    I guess you will have to read the autobiography to get the full picture.....but i will try to answer some of your questions briefly. I'm assuming that you are possibly from the US where the christian culture is different in many ways to what it is here in Australia.

    I resigned from the ministry in 1991 after 13 years pioneering small country churches and having an evangelistic ministry. During that time the salary (apporved by my board0 I drew from the ministry was never above the average weekly wage). Actually most of the time it was well below......but we did that as i as felt as a minister that I should live a life of sacrifice. Because of that we were never actually able to even save a deposit to buy a house. I'm still not a home owner. There were no tax free dollar donations. In Australia a minister can only make the sort of tax deductions that any one can. There were certainly no special tax breaks for me. this is not meant to be a woe is me response.......jsut correcting some of the assumptions you've made.

    I considered myself an ex-gay because I was married with kids but was never involved in ex-gay ministries or talked to anyone about my homosexuality. It was a secret struggle I went through for 22 years till I fell in love with a man and consequently resigned from the ministry.

    As for making money from my story..........I wish. If i'd told my story with the intention of becoming wealthy I'd be very disappointed. My name is Anthony Venn-Brown not Bryce Courtnay or JK Rowling. The intention was that in telling my story it would be informative to the general population but particualarly that it would help people from my situation. From the moving emails i've recieved from readers that is happening. Fro which I'm grateful. This period of my life has definitely been the most rewarding but not financially. that may change a little now it is to be released in the US market where the topic of homosexuality and the church seems to be more controversial. the debate rages here in Oz but not to the extent it does in the US......so we'll see.

    Never being an ex-gay leader or a publically professing ex-gay I didn't feel the need to apologise........I have though told my story honestly and openly ....warts and all. People will be able to make thier own judgements from that I guess.....after reading the entire story from early childhood to current day.

  27. #27

    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    It doesn't matter how many ex-gays become ex-ex-gays. As long as homosexuality exists, as long as people feel desperate for themselves (or their loved ones) to live heterosexual lives, and as long as there's money to be made, there will exist people willing to take that money to convert gays into straights.

    Lex
    Very true.

  28. #28
    anthonyvb
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by pisces_ken02 View Post
    Very true.
    yep pisces_ken02......and the more of us who tell our stories openly and honestly the more we hasten the day of understanding and acceptance for all GLBTIQ people....and people won't feel the need to change or pressure others to conform.

  29. #29
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyvb View Post
    Never being an ex-gay leader or a publically professing ex-gay I didn't feel the need to apologise........I have though told my story honestly and openly ....warts and all. People will be able to make thier own judgements from that I guess.....after reading the entire story from early childhood to current day.
    got it.

    so you're more of a victim and less of a victimizer.

    OK, I'll remove you from that list of people who's arms I wanna rip off that I was talking about above.

    I'm not sure I know much more.. I'll have to take a closer look.

    If you never once talked about how you were cured and encouraged people to also go to the brain butchers, I'll give you a pass. Past that, even a simple country minister who's trying to make people make the same mistakes he's made... well..
    Gentlemen.... Thank you.

  30. #30
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyvb View Post
    GLBTIQ people
    fuck.

    What do the "I" and the "Q" stand for?

    this boat is getting a bit crowded.
    Gentlemen.... Thank you.

  31. #31
    Neat Monster glo-unit's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Soilwork View Post
    fuck.

    What do the "I" and the "Q" stand for?

    this boat is getting a bit crowded.
    I'm pretty sure the Q is for Questioning, I have no idea what the I is for thou.
    "It's strange to have a creation out there, a deeply mutated version of yourself, running loose and screwing everything up. I wonder if this is how parents feel." Dexter Morgan

  32. #32
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    "questioning?"

    Oh for fuck's sake.

    what I have to be nice to the lily-liver people too?

    "Oh, I dont' know what I am... lables are for clothes... can't you make a category for me too?"








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  33. #33
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Young men have been FORCED to go to this ex gay programs by parents who manipulated them. they either went or got tossed out of the families, lost all financial aid, university support and anything else their families could use as leverage to make them go. Some minor aged boys could be signed in by parents who had the power of attorney to force them to go. Preachers like Jim Dobson James Kennedy, Pat Robertson, and Ken LaHaye put the religious guilt on families to use tough love to free their boys from the demons of homosexuality. Those preachers mininstries have made plenty of money spewing their lies. No matter how many exgays say it doesnt work they will blame it on not serving God the way they think everyone should by their rules.

  34. #34
    Porn Star Treborf's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Soilwork View Post
    fuck.

    What do the "I" and the "Q" stand for?

    this boat is getting a bit crowded.
    Ha. I was at some academic forum on gay issues and I remember seeing LGBTTSIQASGL on a pamphlet. Gotta love academia.

    And the "I" stands for "Intersexed".

  35. #35
    anthonyvb
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Soilwork View Post
    got it.

    so you're more of a victim and less of a victimizer.

    OK, I'll remove you from that list of people who's arms I wanna rip off that I was talking about above.

    I'm not sure I know much more.. I'll have to take a closer look.

    If you never once talked about how you were cured and encouraged people to also go to the brain butchers, I'll give you a pass. Past that, even a simple country minister who's trying to make people make the same mistakes he's made... well..
    certainly not a victim these days.....although I was for several years after i left the ministry.......while the subcounsoius belief that i was a bad person because i was gay and had failed God, my wife, the church........was slowly eroded away.

    this quote below would have to be the most profound piece i've ever read. It could have been written for me......i'm sure many of us relate.

    ‘People who exist at the margins of society are very much like Alice in Wonderland. They are not required to make the tough decision to risk their lives by embarking on an adventure of self-discovery. They have already been thrust beyond the city’s walls that keep ordinary people at a safe distance from the unknown. For at least some outsiders, “alienation” has destroyed traditional presumptions of identity and opened up the mythic hero’s path to the possibility of discovery. What outsiders discover in their adventures on the other side of the looking glass is the courage to repudiate self-contempt and recognise their “alienation” as a precious gift of freedom from arbitrary norms that they did not make and did not sanction. At the moment a person questions the validity of the rules, the victim is no longer a victim.’

    ‘The Mythology of Transgression – Homosexuality as a Metaphor’
    by Jamake Highwater

  36. #36
    anthonyvb
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Soilwork View Post
    fuck.

    What do the "I" and the "Q" stand for?

    this boat is getting a bit crowded.
    yep....everytime i read another doc another letter has appeared. the "Q" i put in was for queer although some put an additional "Q" for questioning. I was creating a doc the other day and it was suggest i change the acronym to.... GLBTTIQ. the two "T"'s being for transexual and transgender.......maybe we need a third for transvestite.

    i'm with you......its getting a bit out of hand.....next thing you'll know we'll have the entire alphabet.

    Maybe it would be easier to say sexual minorites and genders disorders.......but that would really open a can of worms /....and i have enough controversy to handle as you see.

  37. #37
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyvb View Post
    Maybe it would be easier to say sexual minorites and genders disorders.......

    Gender disorders?

    Seems you have a ways to go, still.














    If anyone needs me, I'll be in my trailer.
    Gentlemen.... Thank you.

  38. #38

    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Soilwork View Post
    fuck.

    What do the "I" and the "Q" stand for?

    this boat is getting a bit crowded.
    The I stands for intersex, or someone who is neither exclusively male nor female (genetically or through genitals). Aka 'hermaphrodites'. Note there are dozens of forms of hermaphroditism due to genetic, prenatal environment, and afterwards. Some of them are fertile and look like a normal male or female, some of them hormonally are similar to a normal male or female till they hit puberty, or in the 40s, some of them are less clear if they are more similar to a male or a female through genitally...also some definitions of intersex include people whose sex organs/secondary sexual characteristic dont' fully develop even though chromosomally they are fully male/female, also a few but not many include turner's syndrome (only 1 x)

    I just find it really sad and at the same time gross, not something I want to think about and at the same time I really pity them.

  39. #39
    anthonyvb
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Soilwork View Post
    Gender disorders?

    Seems you have a ways to go, still.
    i was joking....hence the

    one of the problems we face communicating on the internet......humour.

  40. #40
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland00 View Post
    The I stands for intersex, or someone who is neither exclusively male nor female (genetically or through genitals). Aka 'hermaphrodites'. Note there are dozens of forms of hermaphroditism due to genetic, prenatal environment, and afterwards.
    Got it.

    Ok, they can stay.

    the "questioning" people will have to choose a label, grow some balls or just cut them off.
    Gentlemen.... Thank you.

  41. #41
    ravenstar
    Guest

    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyvb View Post
    Hi Ravenstar.......venn-brown here. I'm not sure where you have recieved your information from but thought it best to correct some statements you made.

    I was never on the staff at Hillsong or paid by them.

    I never made millions....from Hillsong or my own ministry.

    I never spat out homophobic bullshit

    ......and i never encouraged hate.

    Best that you check the facts before you make accusations like that.
    Sorry, it appears if that is the case that I have you confused with someone else. I'll edit my post and make it known I had you confused with someone else. For some reason I had you linked with the owners of hillsong. My fault.

    It seems you can only edit a post once. I can't find the edit button on any of the posts I put in except here. So I am placing my apology here for what I have written.

  42. #42
    Neat Monster glo-unit's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyvb View Post
    i was joking....hence the

    one of the problems we face communicating on the internet......humour.
    And how easily things are misunderstood, and ravenstar you can only edit post for about ten minutes after you post them.
    "It's strange to have a creation out there, a deeply mutated version of yourself, running loose and screwing everything up. I wonder if this is how parents feel." Dexter Morgan

  43. #43
    anthonyvb
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenstar View Post
    Sorry, it appears if that is the case that I have you confused with someone else. I'll edit my post and make it known I had you confused with someone else. For some reason I had you linked with the owners of hillsong. My fault.

    It seems you can only edit a post once. I can't find the edit button on any of the posts I put in except here. So I am placing my apology here for what I have written.
    hey ravenstar.....thanks so much for that.......i'm glad I responded appropriately and not with the anger that was rising within me. I really appreciate your humility in acknowledging the mistake and saying sorry.

    I had been having a particularly heavy week with attacks on several fronts......after the 60 minutes show. it seems putting myself out there to try and bring change makes me a target for right wing extremists groups.....some other individuals ........ some homophobes in the Australian media and suprisingly to me .......even some in the gay community. Its the latter that i have trouble understanding......especially when I feel like i'm working on behalf of our community. But I guess it is all a part of the territory.......we just keep plodding along though hoping what we do will make a difference to individual lives.

  44. #44
    ravenstar
    Guest

    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyvb View Post
    hey ravenstar.....thanks so much for that.......i'm glad I responded appropriately and not with the anger that was rising within me. I really appreciate your humility in acknowledging the mistake and saying sorry.

    I had been having a particularly heavy week with attacks on several fronts......after the 60 minutes show. it seems putting myself out there to try and bring change makes me a target for right wing extremists groups.....some other individuals ........ some homophobes in the Australian media and suprisingly to me .......even some in the gay community. Its the latter that i have trouble understanding......especially when I feel like i'm working on behalf of our community. But I guess it is all a part of the territory.......we just keep plodding along though hoping what we do will make a difference to individual lives.
    lol.. You're smarter than I am. I always respond with anger and then try to figure out why I've stuffed up again.. lol. Taking the time to think before I respond to something that presses my buttons may well be something to add to my to do list.

  45. #45
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyvb View Post
    .......even some in the gay community. Its the latter that i have trouble understanding....
    well, then, let me explain.

    I hate very few groups of people, but Ex-gays are at the top of my list.

    I hate them.

    I really do.

    They're cowards. They're liars. They're weak and spineless.

    They're people who allow others to give them their opinions and are incapable of thinking for themselves. They're incapable of LIVING for themselves.

    But THAT isn't why I hate them.

    I hate them because they're not just cowards who do themselves damage and kill themselves.. Then I'd just feel sorry for them. I hate them because they inflict their self-hatred on a whole community.

    they allow themselves to willingly be used as weapons against those of us who came out and lived our adult lives with some honesty and dignity from the beginning. Unable to live life on their own terms, they ruin the lives of the people (and their families) who have the guts that they dont' have.

    I don't want to hear that I just don't understand how hard it was for you.

    You think it was easy to come out at 18? It wasn't. But I did it and so could have all the Ex-gays out there who caved in to pressure from the haters. (and yes, I live in Los Angeles, but I grew up in a farming village of 1,700 people in Northern Canada.)

    Trust me, your inability to come out has hurt us. A lot.

    And your coming out later in life hurt the gay community too. Gay men who use women to cover up make all gay people look like users.. like liars.. people who carelessly trample over the lives of others. They make gay men look deceitful and selfish.

    I don't mean to dump on you.. but you say you don't understand why you aren't just welcomed into the community that you helped destroy for so long... why should you be?

    Sorry, but you shit in your own pants and you're going to walk a few miles in them before the gay community is willing to forgive you.

    I see that you're trying to make things right, and I'll give you props for that. But the scars run very deep and healing takes a very long time.


    I don't know your personal story and maybe some of this doesn't apply to you. Maybe none of it does. But as I've said before.. Lie down with dogs, get fleas. Most Ex-gays are in that group.. You'll have to forgive me for not giving you the benefit of the doubt just yet.
    Gentlemen.... Thank you.

  46. #46
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenstar View Post
    Taking the time to think before I respond to something that presses my buttons may well be something to add to my to do list.
    Let me know how you do with that. I might need some lessons.
    Gentlemen.... Thank you.

  47. #47
    ok455
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    A church in my city is having a cure gays thing.

  48. #48
    ravenstar
    Guest

    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Soilwork View Post
    Let me know how you do with that. I might need some lessons.
    lol.. it's a deal. I'll let you know how it goes. Wish me luck.

  49. #49
    God-Emperor of JUB
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Soilwork View Post
    well, then, let me explain.

    I hate very few groups of people, but Ex-gays are at the top of my list.

    I hate them.

    I really do.

    Funny I always thought that ultra- conservative Republicans Christians were on the top of your list..
    I mean to rule the earth,As he the sky We really know our worth,The sun and I!

  50. #50
    IntoxicatedwithHunkiness
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    Re: More denounce ex-gay conversion therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyvb View Post
    this quote below would have to be the most profound piece i've ever read.people who exist at the margins of society are very much like Alice in Wonderland. They are not required to make the tough decision to risk their lives by embarking on an adventure of self-discovery. They have already been thrust beyond the city’s walls that keep ordinary people at a safe distance from the unknown. For at least some outsiders, “alienation” has destroyed traditional presumptions of identity and opened up the mythic hero’s path to the possibility of discovery. What outsiders discover in their adventures on the other side of the looking glass is the courage to repudiate self-contempt and recognise their “alienation” as a precious gift of freedom from arbitrary norms that they did not make and did not sanction. At the moment a person questions the validity of the rules, the victim is no longer a victim.’

    ‘The Mythology of Transgression – Homosexuality as a Metaphor’
    by Jamake Highwater
    Well, with all due respect to Jamake Highwater.... What a steaming load of horseshit.

    "People who exist at the margins of society are very much like 'Alice in Wonderland'...."

    Mmm hmm...

    'Margins of society' ??

    "For at least some outsiders, 'alienation' has destroyed traditional presumptions of identity and opened up the mythic hero's path to the possibility of discovery."

    Umm.

    yes



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