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Thread: Global awaking

  1. #1
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    Global awaking

    After Kyoto's failure... a new hope for the future of our planet?


    Eiffel Tower to Switch off Lights as Scientists Finish Major Report on Global Warming

    by: Angela Charlton 30 January 2007

    Even the Eiffel Tower is out to save the planet.

    On Thursday evening, as scientists and officials put finishing touches on a long-awaited report about global warming, the Paris landmark will switch off its 20,000 flashing light bulbs that run up and down the tower and illuminate the French capital's skyline.

    The Eiffel Tower 's lights account for about 9 percent of the monument's total energy consumption of 7,000 megawatt-hours per year.

    The five-minute blackout comes at the urging of environmental activists seeking to call attention to energy waste _ and just hours before world scientists on Friday unveil a major report Friday warning that the planet will keep getting warmer and presenting new evidence of humans' role in climate change.

    Environmental groups are seeking to take advantage of the worldwide attention on the meetings in Paris this week of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The panel will release a report laying out policy proposals for governments based on the latest research on global warming.

    Pressure for policy changes to slow global warming is coming from other areas, too. U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon is exploring the possibility of convening an emergency summit of world leaders aimed at breaking a deadlock over cutting greenhouse gases, officials said Tuesday.

    The impetus for such a world summit is U.S. President George W. Bush acknowledging in his Jan. 24 State of the Union speech that climate change needs to be dealt with and the EU's Jan. 10 proposals for a new European energy policy that stresses the need to slash carbon emissions blamed for global warming, U.N. environment program spokesman Nick Nuttall said.

    "There's a lot of momentum that has being building," Nuttall said. "We have a window of opportunity."

    Nuttall said the summit could be held between July and December.

    An early draft of the report being released in Paris suggests it will contain stronger evidence of the human role in climate change and more specific predictions of rising temperatures and sea levels this century.

    The report "won't change our scientific basis, but it will make our jobs easier," Steve Sawyer, of Greenpeace, said Tuesday. "It is an important and powerful new tool in public debate and policy debate."

    Environmental groups have long urged governments and consumers to rely more on renewable energy sources such as solar and wind power instead of greenhouse gas-emitting ones like coal and oil. Greenhouse gases are considered a key culprit of rising global temperatures.

    "We're not advocating that you have to freeze in the dark, but to use the most efficient technology," said Sven Terske, another Greenpeace activist.

    He warned that this week's global warming report may produce some "depressing news" about how fast the world is heating up. "We have to turn it into a positive reaction."

    The report will be watched closely in the United States , whose government is accused of playing down the dangers of climate change.

    In Washington , a U.S. congressional committee was to hear claims Tuesday from two private advocacy groups who said they found evidence of political pressure on U.S. government climate scientists in seven federal agencies to downplay the threat of global warming.


    The company that manages the Eiffel Tower said in a statement that it hopes the blackout will demonstrate its "commitment to sustained development and in favor of the environment."

    The blackout responds to an appeal from an alliance of French environmental groups for consumers and businesses to turn out the lights for five minutes at 7:55 p.m. (1855 GMT) Thursday.

    The group said its goal is "to allow citizens to express their concern and their determination to urgently stop energy waste."

    It was unclear whether other Paris landmarks would heed the call to turn off the lights.
    http://www.stopglobalwarming.org/sgw...d=629501302007

    At least, revisionists won't be able to pretend there is no global warming anymore or that it is not accelerated by human activities...
    Time to forget about your SUV guys

  2. #2
    Keeland
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    Re: Global awaking

    Turning the Eiffel Tower's lights off for a whole five minutes will really make those energy-wasting SUV drivers in Des Moines and Saskatoon sit up, take notice and read the report.
    The company that manages the Eiffel Tower said in a statement that it hopes the blackout will demonstrate its "commitment to sustained development and in favor of the environment."
    I'm reeling from the world-wide repercussions this bold move will generate. Perhaps the attending "officials" and PR flacks from all over the world will walk home instead of flying in a jet that in one trip would keep a car in fuel for 1,000 years.
    It was unclear whether other Paris landmarks would heed the call to turn off the lights.
    They'd better, those energy-profligating wastrels!

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    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: Global awaking

    I heard on tonights news that it will use more electricity to turn the lights back on than it would to leave them on for that 5 mins.


  4. #4
    Quality posting since 2K7 Nishin's Avatar
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeland View Post
    Turning the Eiffel Tower's lights off for a whole five minutes will really make those energy-wasting SUV drivers in Des Moines and Saskatoon sit up, take notice and read the report.
    It has no such pretention ... or do you really expect dead soldiers of WWII or victims of 9/11 to take notice of the 1mn of silence observed during commemorations all around the planet every year?



    Quote Originally Posted by Keeland View Post
    I'm reeling from the world-wide repercussions this bold move will generate. Perhaps the attending "officials" and PR flacks from all over the world will walk home instead of flying in a jet that in one trip would keep a car in fuel for 1,000 years.They'd better, those energy-profligating wastrels!
    Right on! Plane pollution is already responsible for 5 to 10% of the Earth' global warming, and with the overall fleet expected to double in the next 15 years (http://www.willthomas.net/Convergenc..._Pollution.htm : http://www.ehponline.org/qa/105-12focus/focus.html) , it is really about time we started thinking of effective solutions...
    Hopefully, some new ideas and policies will be pushed and activated during the meeting to help fighting against our bad habits and be more respectful of our environment.



    Quote Originally Posted by fuckbait69 View Post
    I heard on tonights news that it will use more electricity to turn the lights back on than it would to leave them on for that 5 mins.
    That's pretty ironical indeed, although as far as I (don't) know, this electricity could come from one of the too few wind turbine fields we have in Europe.
    Anyhow, I don't think the purpose of this Eiffel tower thing is to save electricity, but rather a symbol to draw people' attention (by appearing in the media) on a critical issue that concerns every living organism on the planet.

  5. #5
    Keeland
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Nishin View Post
    Anyhow, I don't think the purpose of this Eiffel tower thing is to save electricity, but rather a symbol to draw people' attention (by appearing in the media) on a critical issue that concerns every living organism on the planet.
    Ostensibly. But it's really a stunt by "officials" riding on the coat-tails of a feel-good turn-the-lights-off-for-five-minutes environmentalism scam to score a trip to Paris, where they'll stay in $500 to $1,000-a-night five-star hotels on the taxpayers' dime. It's a boondoggle.

    Bon appétit.

  6. #6
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    Re: Global awaking

    ... err what does the 5mns blackout have to do with officials?

    The five-minute blackout comes at the urging of environmental activists seeking to call attention to energy waste _ and just hours before world scientists on Friday unveil a major report Friday warning that the planet will keep getting warmer and presenting new evidence of humans' role in climate change.

  7. #7
    Keeland
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    Re: Global awaking

    There is nothing being said in Paris that that hasn't been said before. But it's getting easier to score scams, such as gathering in one of the world's most expensive cities to turn off a set of lights for five minutes. People are being conned and are too stupid to care. Not by claims and proof of global warming but by the cash cow it's become.

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    Re: Global awaking

    As Keeland rightly reminds us, talk is cheap. Action to save our planet from asphyxiation, is also our responsibility. Do people really need a 4x4? Do we need to drive to our local cafe? Do we need to drive to the cinema? Do we really need to waste our valuable resources on time consuming trips around our local neighbourhood? Walking is a clean, healthy pursuit, and a lot cheaper than using a car.

    I no longer own a car. The local bus service and metro system is cheap, entertaining and a lot less stressful. No parking problems!!!

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Global awaking

    Yeah but my Hummer is the shit.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  10. #10
    ~Danyebat~
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    Re: Global awaking

    Being a geoscientist somehow informs my opinion on the whole disaster inasmuch that mankind will never be able to counteract what our planet will do. I am convinced that while there are natural up and downs in Earth's climate, mankind has contirbuted to the trend that these up and downs will be having thier way...well, further up.

    However, about the only influence we do have is on the atmosphere and the oceans. Maybe, one day that I fear isn't far away anymore, maybe it will dawn on those "in charge" (not politicians, as only a few of them are "in charge") that all their money won't save their asses. There isn't anywhere else for them, for us to go.

    If you think that I am ringing the fire bells, well, you think that. I'm afraid that we have passed the point of no return and no matter what we try and no matter how we try it, it's now too late. We simply will have to adapt and live with the consequences.

    That is, unless a big meteorite falls from the skies again...

    Gah...

    ~D~

  11. #11
    Keeland
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Danyebat~ View Post
    I'm afraid that we have passed the point of no return and no matter what we try and no matter how we try it, it's now too late.
    I agree.

    Scientists began warning of global warming in the mid- to late 1970s, but hardly anyone cared (and their warnings made the news even then). People continued to ignore it for 30 years. Most people not yet affected by it, and even some who are, especially those motivated by greed, including politicians, still don't care. Every time a single snowflake falls, a chorus of "So much for global warming" is heard across the land.

    Now the world is reaping the whirlwind, and it will blow furnace hot across a very thirsty Earth. The droughts in Australia and elsewhere (along with temperature increases of at least 10 degrees F) are predicted by some to be permanent. The oceans are predicted to be devoid of all fish in 50 years. The disappearance of glaciers will bring drought and thirst to those places that depend on spring melts, including Canada and the U.S. Water tables are falling and disappearing. The entire planet will share the fate of Easter Island, and for the same reasons.

    It's too late for "leaders" to do anything. Besides, they have to win the next election.

  12. #12
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Global awaking

    Don't be so pessimistic. Our free enterprise system is well able to gear it self up to meet the challenges of our future. I agree that there needs to be a political will, and a willingness of every human being to make its presence felt beyond the ballot box.

    Our dependence on fossil fuels must decline, and disappear.

    Alternative sources of energy are already available and with the right sort of incentives, can be rapidly harnessed to begin the process of reducing our dependence on fossil fuels.

    It's never too late when we realise that with the right help, nature can reverse the worst excesses that the human race has imposed upon it.

    The Nicholas Stern report in the United Kingdom has clearly spelt out the consequences if human kind does not act appropriately, now. The report also predicts that with strong political leadership, the pessimists can be turned into optimists.

  13. #13
    OtterJoq
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The report also predicts that with strong political leadership, the pessimists can be turned into optimists.
    Then as it stands right now in the US, we're doomed.

  14. #14
    Keeland
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Don't be so pessimistic.
    The Eiffel Tower Festival Of Unlights experts meeting in Paris say its too late even if everything shuts down tomorrow. But nothing will start to slow for 10 years under the weak, arm-twisted agreements that exist now.

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    Re: Global awaking

    I disagree. For every expert there is a different diagnosis and different prognosis.
    Experts have a capacity to create attention in order to publicise their name and thoughts.

    There is sufficient activity underway in the private sector for us to understand that the pendulum has started to swing in the right direction. Tax incentives and government grants for industry, is beginning to transform the way industry views the future of investment in energy saving and energy creating. Wind farms are now springing up on those coast lands in Europe that are exposed to regular windy conditions. The birth of such ideas has already given way to practical implementation of alternative energy resources and the more efficient use of current energy resources. Hydrogen is now being utilised to propel submarines, and in due time will also propel surface vessels. The car manufacturing industry is also shifting its focus to utilising alternative energy resources. The United States is now seriously considering using ethanol as a complimentary form of energy propulsion in cars. American farmers in the Mid West are already gearing up to grow sugar. Brazil has been using ethanol mixtures for years. More funds are being invested in research into developing more efficient and cheaper energy resources. That petroleum products are mainly resourced from politically unstable regions of the world, is also creating the necessary political rethink on the soundness of depending on the Middle East, Central America, West Africa and Russia for the The West's oil and gas needs.

    There is much going on in private industry, in anticipation of the politicians finally catching up with the rest of the human race.

  16. #16
    Keeland
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Hydrogen is now being utilised to propel submarines, and in due time will also propel surface vessels.
    Funny, I was reading about that the other day. (Maybe there's a thread about it here.) The idea, such as it was then, has been around since the First World War.

    The article I read discussed two subs with this "air-independent" propulsion in the Swedish navy. It seems almost like perpetual motion.

  17. #17
    Calator
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    Re: Global awaking

    rant

    So... America is built up on a system of ROADS, not trains, not monorails, not subways or bicycle trails, but upon ROADS, designed for VEHICLES, and now Americans (and indeed ALL the people of the world) have to pay for the absence of foresight in the light of this overwhelming evidence that carbon emissions are the only real thing causing global warming? You honestly don't believe this is anything more than a way to bend over the US, using no lube mind you, and jamming a large cucumber up our asses?

    Seriously folks. Look into it. MARS is warming up. MARS. I'm no scientist, but I don't see any possible way that our cars and trucks are producing emissions that are warming up the thin little atmosphere that mars has. Do YOU know how this could happen?

    Let me explain it in one simple word: SUN. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, the sun. That glowing ball that rises in the east and sets in the west. It's flaming up like a scorching case of herpes. Just recently a very NASTY little ejection came out. The sun is doing some weird things! Now, I'm not doubting one bit that vehicle emissions are bad. They ARE. No kidding. BUT! Maybe a better way of combating the problem would be to not freak out about things that WE CAN'T CHANGE.

    We CAN change some things here, yes, but that requires a brain. Planting trees might be a start. Trees take nasty old CO2 and make oxygen for us! YAY! But even then we need to stop cutting down as many trees as we plant. So why not start there?

    Isn't it curious to you people that everone takes interest in a problem only once the media freaks out about it and shows "conclusive" evidence of global warming? Do you honestly believe they would tell you the truth even IF the truth was that you could not have hardly any impact on the outcome at all? No! They're going to tell you that you CAN make a HUGE difference by stop being a "bad" person by getting a hybrid car, or by biking to work, or by just planting one tree... take your pic....

    *** But the whole name of the game is CONTROL, and ILLUSION OF CONTROL. They will try to make you think that you have control over the whole global warming event, so you feel "safe". *ahem* 9-11 *spy on your neighbor* *give up your freedoms for security* Sound familiar? *ahem* At least you can put your own mind at ease if you do your part, right? Make no mistake though; it's just a way to call all of us evil and call for a global tax on emissions, further separating the people from their money. ***

    All the while, we aren't looking for REAL solutions to the energy crises we have in the world. How many stations in YOUR neighborhood have E85 (ethanol)? How much gas will you save by driving to the nearest one? See any BIG increases in the number of stations that have it? Or, think about how much money you will SAVE buying that hybrid car. Oh that's right, you WON'T save any, because they ALL COST MORE. So who wants to spend more money on a car that you'd have to drive for like 5 years straight just to break even in the difference in the price of the vehicle? Nobody would take less emissions and less fuel costs as a license to drive more often now would they?

    This is a complex issue, and we can't solve it overnight. But make no mistake, they WILL try to take our money in the name of "saving the planet". The fun part is making the people WANT to give you their money, even when they don't have it to give.

    WAKE UP PEOPLE!


    /rant

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    Re: Global awaking

    Nishin re the lights on the Eiffel tower.
    Yeah, I know the idea is to bring the attention to us. I just threw that in for some reason. It was in my head at the time.

  19. #19

    Re: Global awaking

    I think I will accept the recommendations of the 125 Climate scientists that have studied all available data for the past three years. What grounds do I have for not accepting it or believing this is some kind of conspiracy?

    "The US with about 5 percent of the worlds population, contributes about a quarter of greenhouse gas emissions, more than any other country." (NYT 2/3/07) The US has no business pointing at other countries until it does something at home.

    According to the NYTimes report the panel said warming and it's harmful consequences could be substantially blunted by prompt action.

    I don't see at this point how any of this can even be seriously debated.

  20. #20
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Calator View Post
    rant
    So... America is built up on a system of ROADS, not trains, not monorails, not subways or bicycle trails, but upon ROADS, designed for VEHICLES, and now Americans (and indeed ALL the people of the world) have to pay for the absence of foresight in the light of this overwhelming evidence that carbon emissions are the only real thing causing global warming? You honestly don't believe this is anything more than a way to bend over the US, using no lube mind you, and jamming a large cucumber up our asses?
    [common sense]
    You know that fossil fuel reserves are finite don't you?
    Are you suggesting we should do nothing and wait until there is no fuel available? Then what happens when this day arrives? We stop all activity and stay home waiting for more oil to be synthetized by nature for a few dozen milleniums?
    Is it that difficult to grasp that changing our habits regarding fossil fuel will ONLY BENEFIT us?
    [/common sense]


    Quote Originally Posted by Calator View Post
    Seriously folks. Look into it. MARS is warming up. MARS. I'm no scientist, but I don't see any possible way that our cars and trucks are producing emissions that are warming up the thin little atmosphere that mars has. Do YOU know how this could happen?
    Let me explain it in one simple word: SUN. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, the sun. That glowing ball that rises in the east and sets in the west. It's flaming up like a scorching case of herpes. Just recently a very NASTY little ejection came out. The sun is doing some weird things!
    [common sense]
    Mars doesn't have a magnetoshpere to filter sun's UV and deflect solar winds. Also... Mars has NO life threatened by such phenomenons, who cares about UV on Mars?? Why bring up such a ridiculous and useless point???
    [/common sense]


    Quote Originally Posted by Calator View Post
    Now, I'm not doubting one bit that vehicle emissions are bad. They ARE. No kidding. BUT! Maybe a better way of combating the problem would be to not freak out about things that WE CAN'T CHANGE.
    We CAN CHANGE our habits we know to be bad instead of perpetuating them and worsening the situation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Calator View Post
    We CAN change some things here, yes, but that requires a brain. Planting trees might be a start. Trees take nasty old CO2 and make oxygen for us! YAY! But even then we need to stop cutting down as many trees as we plant. So why not start there?
    As much as I hate to burst your little bubble, I am pretty sure your genius idea about deforestation is an issue that has already been brought to governments' attention many times in the past... why don't they do something about it? Because industries want money. Capitalism has no care for anything much but immediate profit : http://www.crapville.com/game_holder.asp?ID=214 .
    This needs to be adressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calator View Post
    Isn't it curious to you people that everone takes interest in a problem only once the media freaks out about it and shows "conclusive" evidence of global warming?
    a. What (who) do you mean by everyone?
    b. Studies about global warming have nothing to do with the media.
    b1. The media show no conclusive evidence of global warming. The media don't study global warming.
    b2. Scientists and expert study global warming. Scientists and experts show conclusive evidence of global warming's occurence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Calator View Post
    IDo you honestly believe they would tell you the truth even IF the truth was that you could not have hardly any impact on the outcome at all? No! They're going to tell you that you CAN make a HUGE difference by stop being a "bad" person by getting a hybrid car, or by biking to work, or by just planting one tree... take your pic. [...] *** But the whole name of the game is CONTROL, and ILLUSION OF CONTROL. They will try to make you think that you have control over the whole global warming event, so you feel "safe". *ahem* 9-11 *spy on your neighbor* *give up your freedoms for security* Sound familiar? *ahem* At least you can put your own mind at ease if you do your part, right? Make no mistake though; it's just a way to call all of us evil and call for a global tax on emissions, further separating the people from their money. ***
    Actually I think the large industries are more directly concerned than λ individuals. After all, the consumers are at the end of the industrial chain. I believe it's the industries that should adapt and find solutions... ie: develop non-polluting cars that would run on hydrogen or electricity. That being said, biking to work will help YOU keep in shape and keep your heart healthy. And benefit your purse and savings/purchasing power.




    Quote Originally Posted by Calator View Post
    All the while, we aren't looking for REAL solutions to the energy crises we have in the world. How many stations in YOUR neighborhood have E85 (ethanol)? How much gas will you save by driving to the nearest one? See any BIG increases in the number of stations that have it? Or, think about how much money you will SAVE buying that hybrid car. Oh that's right, you WON'T save any, because they ALL COST MORE. So who wants to spend more money on a car that you'd have to drive for like 5 years straight just to break even in the difference in the price of the vehicle?
    [common sense]
    If more people want to buy such cars, their production will increase, and therefore their prices will drop. Supply and demand model, Microeconomics101
    [/common sense]



    Quote Originally Posted by Calator View Post
    Nobody would take less emissions and less fuel costs as a license to drive more often now would they?
    That is not the point of non fuel cars.


    Quote Originally Posted by Calator View Post
    This is a complex issue, and we can't solve it overnight. But make no mistake, they WILL try to take our money in the name of "saving the planet". The fun part is making the people WANT to give you their money, even when they don't have it to give.
    Life is not all about money... eventually if we end up having to buy air purifiers for our homes, water filters and recycling devices, building of new settlements away from the coasts, then money is being spent too anyway.

  21. #21
    Quality posting since 2K7 Nishin's Avatar
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    Re: Global awaking


  22. #22
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Global awaking

    SO, How do they make the majority of the world's electricity?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  23. #23
    Keeland
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Nishin View Post
    The Tesla Motors story.
    Last year, Tesla Motors (San Carlos, Calif.) rolled out its first electric car, dubbed the Tesla Roadster. The electric-powered Roadster boasts the equivalent of 135 miles per gallon and a range of 250 miles on a single charge. Based on an off-the-shelf lithium-ion battery, the electric sports car is capable of accelerating from 0-to-60 miles per hour in about four seconds.

    <snip>

    The Roadster is being produced in the Lotus automotive facility in the United Kingdom. The sedan will be made in the United States. Tesla Motors is evaluating production sites in either Arizona or California, but no decision has been made, he said.
    Electric cars appear always to be developed in places with moderate to hot climates. I suspect that an electric car with a range of 250 miles in Los Angeles would have a range of a block and a half anywhere there's winter.

    Cold, by itself, robs any battery of power. The colder it is, the more power disappears, and the loss is dramatic. Add to that these problems when it's 20 or 30 below: Overcoming the friction of "square" wheels from sitting overnight, and cold axle and transmission lubricants with the consistency of mud, adding to the friction that must be overcome, and with it the power consumption.

    The absolute need for cabin heat and the defroster and the heat/defroster fan, which would drain the batteries. Windshield wipers to constantly remove snow, which would drain the batteries. The rear-window defroster, which would drain the batteries. The radio, which would drain the batteries. The headlights and tailights, which would drain the batteries. Electric power steering, which would drain the batteries, especially in the cold.

    And when the batteries die because the heat's turned on, there would be no hazard lights when you're stopped dead in the middle of the street or highway.

    Those who flog electric cars never mention their range in the winter, nor do they mention it with the air conditioning turned on. Who in Arizona or anywhere else wants a car costing $92,000 that doesn't have A/C, or if turning it on means the car drops dead?

    If a range of 250 miles means in extreme cold with the heat, fan, wipers, rear defroster, lights and radio turned on, why not say so? Obviously, it doesn't.

  24. #24
    Quality posting since 2K7 Nishin's Avatar
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    Re: Global awaking

    Who said they were perfect?
    The point is INITIATIVE... if no one takes it, nothing will ever happen (including fixing defaults)

  25. #25
    Quality posting since 2K7 Nishin's Avatar
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    Re: Global awaking

    ^ Besides, until more efficient ecars are available, Hybrid cars already exist and/or are being developped that allow you to use other energies (ie: ethanol) at times where electricity is not sufficient. (http://www.evworld.com/electrichybrid.cfm).
    There are several interesting ideas and projects around. All we need is for people to actually take interest in them to help them develop faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by mazda3boi View Post
    SO, How do they make the majority of the world's electricity?
    That's another point to adress. What's discussed above is mainly reducing/cutting cars' co2 emissions down, using electricity is a viable solution to that issue.
    On the other hand, actual power stations take a large part in the annual greenhouse gas emission:



    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:G..._by_Sector.png)

    A quick google search (http://www.industcards.com/ppworld.htm) reveals that thermal power plants are the most common and the ones most responsible for carbon dioxyde emissions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environ...ty_generation), followed by hydroelectricity plants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_stations).

    However, here again, there are other ways ; solar power, wind power, geothermal power come to mind...
    Developping those technologies would help reduce emissions due to existing power plants and ensure balancing an increased demand for electricity to support the transportation industry if/when such source of energy is generalized.

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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by OtterJoq View Post
    Then as it stands right now in the US, we're doomed.
    Doom despair ....aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh, run away run away

    We are not doomed because of Global warming, yellow stone is gonna blow up and the whole earth will die.
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    Re: Global awaking

    I saw it on discovery channel
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Global awaking

    Oh I forgot the world will blame us for that shit too....ho hum
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by mazda3boi View Post
    . . . . yellow stone is gonna blow up and the whole earth will die.
    That, too! You had to remind me!

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    Re: Global awaking

    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Global awaking

    You know... playing martyrs doesn't help a point be made... I'm not even sure what you're trying to contest here...

    Doubting that the U.S are (currently) the biggest contributor to greenhouse effect?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3143798.stm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...xide_emissions

    (Per capita : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ons_per_capita )

    Contesting U.S government's politics on the matter (since that's what was mentioned in the original article)?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1375089.stm

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in510920.shtml

    http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/bushinx.asp

    http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_int...-pressure.html

    http://environment.newscientist.com/...te-change.html



    ?

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    Re: Global awaking

    No doubt we lead in exhaust pipes. We are first in everything.

    Why haven't you mentioned Nuclear power. The rest of your options aren't viable or they would be in use. Nuc power works and has minimum but containable waste and has zero association with fossil fuel.
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    Re: Global awaking

    And the thing i was arguing or poking fun at was otterjoq's penchant for gloom and despair. I have never seen him post a positive thing. SO when he said we were all doomed I felt compelled to bring up the super volcano that will kill us all.



    Regardless of how conscientious stewards of the natural trust we become we are short lived on this planet in the scheme, too bad more of us don't know it we might be working on space.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by mazda3boi View Post
    Why haven't you mentioned Nuclear power. The rest of your options aren't viable or they would be in use. Nuc power works and has minimum but containable waste and has zero association with fossil fuel.
    I didn't name Nuclear power specifically but it is included in the thermal plants stats since heat generated by the nuclear reactor is used to boil water, produce steam, and drive a steam turbine.
    Nuclear plants already provide 7% of the world's energy and 15.7% of the world's electricity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power).

    Personally, I find them to be a good alternative, but also a temporary one (until something more reliable/less risqué is more widely spread and used).
    They are good because they don't produce CO2,sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury or other pollutants associated with the combustion of fossil fuels like conventional plants do, not directly anyway (although fossil fuels are sometimes used to power parts of their infrastructures, still significantly less). Besides, they do not depend on geographic resources like hydro, solar and wind power do since uranium can be brought to them, just like fossil fuels are brought to plants that run on them...

    On the other hand, they are not risk-free. Of course, their security has be improved and they're actually pretty safe, things like the Chernobyl and Three Mile Island accidents are very unlikely to happen.
    My concerns lay in the risk they represent in case of terrorist attacks or in the misuses people can make of radioactive material (as in the 1999 Russian incident where workers were caught trying to sell 5 grams of radioactive material on the open market (http://www.nti.org/db/nistraff/1999/19990670.htm)). Also, the same plants and technology used to enrich uranium for power generation can be used to make the highly enriched uranium needed to build a bomb.
    Eventually, although they produce little waste, the high-level waste they do produce remains radioactive for thousands of year and its disposal is a real problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environ...Nuclear_power).


    The other options I mentioned ARE viable. I can't really tell why they are not more largely in use. They are new technologies and I guess people don't want to invest in them when they already have working plants nearby, regardless of the known effects of those.

    That's what the Kyoto protocol was about. But Bush refused to ratify the treaty on the base that it could harm the U.S' economy and that developping countries were not expected the same requirements (including China, the actual 2nd largest world GHG emitter, which is believed to become the first by 2030 (http://www.newscientist.com/article/...than-ever.html) and believed to become the first CO2 emitter by 2010 (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...e1962439.ece)).

    Instead, Bush proposed a volontary efforts based system (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLI...ing/index.html) which we now know doesn't work (the U.S increased their CO2 emissions by 17% compared with 1990 levels ; http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/fmandatory.asp ; http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/bushinx.asp).

    I guess once again money is more important than quality of life or even life itself.

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    Re: Global awaking

    Lets take a looky at Kyoto:

    that the protocol would cost Australians jobs,[11] due to countries with booming economies and massive populations such as China and India not having any reduction obligations. By way of example, if Australia were to shut down all of its coal fired power stations, within 9 months China would have produced so much extra pollution because of its industrial growth that it would have negated the shutting down of those Australian power stations
    In 2004 the total greenhouse gas emissions from China were about 54% of the USA emissions [1]. China is now building on average a coal-fired power plant every week and plans to continue doing so for years [2][3]. Some predictions are that China will emit more greenhouse gas than the USA in 2 or 3 years
    On June 28, 2006, the German government announced it would exempt its coal industry from requirements under the Kyoto agreement
    On April 25, 2006, Ambrose announced that Canada would have no chance of meeting its targets under Kyoto, and would look to participate in U.S. sponsored Asia Pacific Partnership on Clean Development and Climate.
    However, annual net carbon dioxide emission levels in the UK have actually risen by around 2 per cent since Tony Blair's Labour Party came to power in 1997.[35] Furthermore, it now seems highly unlikely that the Government will be able to honour its manifesto pledge to cut carbon dioxide emissions by 20 per cent from 1990 levels by the year 2010,[35] unless a Climate Change Act is passed in 2006-7 and the Government takes immediate and drastic action to curb emissions over the next few years
    The Kyoto Protocol limits emissions to a percentage increase or decrease from their 1990 levels. Since 1990 the economies of most countries in the former Soviet Union have collapsed, as have their greenhouse gas emissions. Because of this, Russia should have no problem meeting its commitments under Kyoto, as its current emission levels are substantially below its targets.
    SIDE NOTE: OUR SAVINGS CAN COME FROM RUSSIA. AFTER ALL WE CAUSED THE COLLAPSE

    The United States (U.S.), although a signatory to the Kyoto Protocol, has neither ratified nor withdrawn from the Protocol. The signature alone is symbolic, as the Kyoto Protocol is non-binding on the United States unless ratified.
    SEE WHAT NON BINDING BULLSHIT DOES.....NOTHING.

    The Clinton Administration never submitted the protocol to the Senate for ratification
    This is a challenge that requires a 100% effort; ours, and the rest of the world's. The world's second-largest emitter of greenhouse gases is the People's Republic of China. Yet, China was entirely exempted from the requirements of the Kyoto Protocol. India and Germany are among the top emitters. Yet, India was also exempt from Kyoto … America's unwillingness to embrace a flawed treaty should not be read by our friends and allies as any abdication of responsibility.
    SO IF CLINTON FAILED TO SUPPORT IT WHILE GORE SIGNED IT I GUESS LITTLE MISTER BUSH ISN'T THE KYOTO KILLER.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Global awaking

    Kyoto's failure was the first line of this thread...






    The Clinton administration signed the protocol little after they released "an economic analysis in July 1998, prepared by the Council of Economic Advisors, which concluded that with emissions trading among the Annex B/Annex I countries, and participation of key developing countries in the "Clean Development Mechanism" — which grants the latter business-as-usual emissions rates through 2012 — the costs of implementing the Kyoto Protocol could be reduced as much as 60% from many estimates".
    To me it shows they were at least willing to try and do something.
    http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/12/11/kyoto/

    The Kyoto protocol was far from perfect, but as everything was perfectible. Solutions proposed by Bush instead of it do NOt work.

    The full quote was :

    That's why 95 members of the United States Senate expressed a reluctance to endorse such an approach. Yet, America's unwillingness to embrace a flawed treaty should not be read by our friends and allies as any abdication of responsibility. To the contrary, my administration is committed to a leadership role on the issue of climate change.
    We recognize our responsibility and will meet it -- at home, in our hemisphere, and in the world. My Cabinet-level working group on climate change is recommending a number of initial steps, and will continue to work on additional ideas. The working group proposes the United States help lead the way by advancing the science on climate change, advancing the technology to monitor and reduce greenhouse gases, and creating partnerships within our hemisphere and beyond to monitor and measure and mitigate emissions.
    But when you look at how Bush's administration committed to a leadership role on the issue of climate change, you soon understand what it really meant was to deny human responsibility in global warming and censor the debate in the U.S (http://www.alternet.org/story/11054/).

    Some U.S states and cities seem to have eventually understood this since:
    On August 31, 2006, the California Legislature reached an agreement with Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to reduce the state's greenhouse-gas emissions, which rank at 12th-largest in the world, by 25 percent by the year 2020. This resulted in the Global Warming Solutions Act which effectively puts California in line with the Kyoto initiative.

    As of January 18, 2007, 369 US cities in 50 states, representing more than 55 million Americans support Kyoto after Mayor Greg Nickels of Seattle started a nationwide effort to get cities to agree to the protocol.

    * Large participating cities: New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, Seattle, San Francisco, Boston, Denver, New Orleans, Minneapolis, Austin, Portland, Providence, Tacoma, San Jose, Salt Lake City, Little Rock, West Palm Beach, Annapolis, Madison, Wisconsin
    U.S v.s China, here again, the "they do bad things so I'll do bad things too" philosophy... As I did point out myself before, China is about to become the first emitter of ghg and CO2 and this needs to be adressed. ... but doesn't exempt # 2, 3, 4...etc from doing their part.

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    Re: Global awaking

    If they are exempt and we are leveled in economies by the cost of kyoto then what is the result a stronger China that will refuse to comply and a weaker US economy. Thats not exactly a win win situation is it?

    We have made different agreements to curb our emissions. Isn't that what a leader does, choose the correct course not take the wrong course? The other quotes you fail to address demonstrate that kyoto does not work. The countries who agreed to it can not make it work.

    The only thing Kyoto does is hamper our economy and drive more business to places like india and china who do not and will not comply.
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by mazda3boi View Post
    If they are exempt and we are leveled in economies by the cost of kyoto then what is the result a stronger China that will refuse to comply and a weaker US economy. Thats not exactly a win win situation is it?

    We have made different agreements to curb our emissions. Isn't that what a leader does, choose the correct course not take the wrong course? The other quotes you fail to address demonstrate that kyoto does not work. The countries who agreed to it can not make it work.

    The only thing Kyoto does is hamper our economy and drive more business to places like india and china who do not and will not comply.
    If Kyoto doesn't apply to everyone,how do we ascertain that countries like China and India don't cancel out any sacrifice the developed industrial nations make.There is a global warming crisis potentially,and to mitigate its severity sooner than later will prevent the worst scenarios from developing,even if some painful climactic effects are inevitable for decades if not longer.But the gradual transition from fossil fuels must be global and well coordinated and planned...if in the next generation we cannot make the transition globally to non polluting renewable energy sources..and there are many exciting and innovative possibilities for this,we will have failed as a apecies in our duty to be good stewards for the planet.
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by mazda3boi View Post
    If they are exempt and we are leveled in economies by the cost of kyoto then what is the result a stronger China that will refuse to comply and a weaker US economy. Thats not exactly a win win situation is it?
    Exactly my point: MONEY is more important than our planet, quality of life and life itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by mazda3boi View Post
    We have made different agreements to curb our emissions. Isn't that what a leader does, choose the correct course not take the wrong course?
    Denying human responsibility in global warming, censoring voices that say otherwise and proposing voluntary effort systems is not the correct course.
    Since 1990, the U.S emissions increased by 17%, this is not the correct course a leader must show.

    Quote Originally Posted by mazda3boi View Post
    The other quotes you fail to address demonstrate that kyoto does not work. The countries who agreed to it can not make it work.
    I did not fail to address your other quotes. I addressed them even before you posted them. You might want to read the very first post again.
    I consider Kyoto to have been a failure so far.
    However, I can't help notice that most of the countries that agreed to it (and were compelled to emissions reductions) actually HAVE reduced their ghg emissions.

    Quote Originally Posted by mazda3boi View Post
    The only thing Kyoto does is hamper our economy and drive more business to places like india and china who do not and will not comply.
    Capitalism does that... not Kyoto protocol...

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    Re: Global awaking

    Kyoto ensures we are hamstringed
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Do people really need a 4x4? Do we need to drive to our local cafe? Do we need to drive to the cinema?
    I drive a V8 4x4, but I get disgusted with people who have them because it's "kool". Picking for aesthetics is one thing, picking to be macho is silly. I have one, and still feel like crap for driving one, because a good portion of my work as a handyman requires one: pulling stumps, dragging logs, hauling wood down roads with 8-10% slopes, occasionally pulling idiots out of the mud... idiots with 4x4s they have no idea how to drive, because they really own them for show.

    Yesterday I drove to the courthouse, all of six blocks away, but only because the air outside set my lungs into spasms of coughing and hacking after just a few breaths. But a wealthy retired neighbor just down the block drives three blocks one way every other day to the Senior Center to get his $1.50 federally-subsidized lunch, in a car I could just about park my truck in.

    In rural areas I don't question the sight of a 4x4, because there are lots of good reasons to have one. But in the city it seems every sixth or seventh vehicle is a shiny gas-guzzling SUV -- I just don't get that.

    The ultimate irony here is that the attorney across the street here, a die-hard liberal Democrat, held an environmental advocacy meeting at his house a while back. We watched cars pull in -- SUVs, huge luxury vehicles, full-size 4WD pickups with all the accessories... and one little hybrid, driven by (I love this) the man's mother. I kept wondering, Didn't he learn anything from his mother?

    Quote Originally Posted by mazda3boi View Post
    SO, How do they make the majority of the world's electricity?
    Inefficiently.


    Some points in passing:

    Yes, Mars is warming. Yes, that means the earth is warming due to insolation as well. No, that increase in insolation doesn't account for any significant portion of the observed warming. OTOH, far-out dreamers have suggested it could make it easier to (maybe we could ship our CO2 there) terraform Mars -- which NASA says would take at least 100 years, more likely 500, so if they're thinking we could move... well, I'm not packing my bags just yet.

    Yes, the media have made a lot of global warming. OTOH, according to professors I had at OSU who study aspects of the phenomenon, the media frequently get it wrong -- in the direction of not grasping how dire it is. Many results are apparently not released to the media because they would be mangled, so we get a lot of generalizations that sound like, but mostly aren't hype. Side comment: I was very skeptical about the whole notion until I saw some of the data at OSU oceanography; it startled me enough to make me shelve preconceptions and start paying real attention.

    Concerning low-emissions cars: Substitute fuels are an improvement, but as long as we're burning anything, we're putting out CO2. And yes, some people will decide that if the cars are cleaner, they can drive more; I remember modeling that sort of behavior in sociology -- it happens all the time, the classic case being when snacks' fat content is lowered, many people eat more snacks, with the result that they actually gain weight when the point is to help lose. It's a principle economists take into account, and one that has to be reckoned with.

    As for alternate energy sources that don't have emissions, people are enthusiastic -- until it's time to build plants or towers, and then the NIMBY effect goes to work (consider that recently in the Netherlands the decision was made to tear down, and move offshore, wind generator towers).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Global awaking

    From the For What It's Worth department:


    Greenhouse gas ocean burial can start Feb 10
    Fri Feb 9, 2007 11:37am ET15

    Science News

    By Alister Doyle, Environment Correspondent

    OSLO (Reuters) - International rules allowing burial of greenhouse gases beneath the seabed enter into force on Saturday in what will be a step toward fighting global warming, if storage costs are cut and leaks can be averted.

    The new rules will permit industrialists to capture heat-trapping gases from big emitters such as coal-fired power plants or steel mills and entomb them offshore -- slowing warming while allowing continued use of fossil fuels.

    "Storage of carbon dioxide under the seabed will be allowed from February 10, 2007 under amendments to an international agreement governing the dumping of wastes at sea," the U.N.'s International Maritime Organization (IMO) said in a statement.

    The new rules, agreed upon in November, amend the U.N.'s London Convention on dumping at sea. Its text had been unclear about whether carbon dioxide, the main greenhouse gas emitted mainly by burning fossil fuels, counted as a pollutant.

    The changes apply to oceans worldwide and could clear the way to more investment in future subsea carbon storage by governments and companies, despite criticism by environmentalists that there are few safeguards against leaks.

    "This removes a lack of clarity and doubt for investors," said Tore Torp, carbon dioxide storage adviser at Norwegian oil group Statoil which opened the world's first commercial store of carbon dioxide in the North Sea in 1996.

    A 2005 U.N. report, however, warned that such storage would only be widely applied if the penalty for emitting carbon dioxide to the atmosphere was $25-$30 a ton -- far above current prices in a European Union market. Continued...


    http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...AS.xml&src=rss

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Global awaking

    Actually, Mars does has an electromagnetosphere, although it's...odd.


    Hm...maybe this was already covered, but you guys do know humanity has an insignificant impact on global warming, right? We did, however (oddly enough) manage to stave it off for a short period (back in the 1970's, scientists were convinced of a begining trend of global COOLING. They actually thought we were moving into the next ice age...)

    According to my geology class, there has been a long history of this planet warming up and cooling off. During the time of the donosaurs, the global temperature was much warmer than it is today. In fact, most of the dinosaurs themselves could not survive under temperatures cooler than that...many would not survive in the present day.

    The geological record also indicates that after THAT ice age, there was a global warming period. The was also a cooling period during the middle (or dark) ages. (During the time of the Roman Empire, it is believed that the Earth was either as warm or warmer than it is today.)

    What's more, these periodic warming and cooling periods have persisted (if you believe the geological record, which is also where we get support for Evolution, btw), throught the Earth's history. It has been both much hotter and much cooler than it is today. And so far as yet, life has continued to survive.

    It should be noted that by looking at air "trapped" in geological layers, periods of warming are accompanied by CO2 (and other gas) increases, and that the Earth has cooled when there are decreases...in SOME cases. However, scientists are unsure if this is a cause/effect scenario or mearly a corralation (two things happening at the same time, but not being caused by the other [or each other]). What's more, IF it is a cause/effect scenario, we don't know which is causing which (it could be that global warming is the cause of the increase in gases.)

    Additionally, these fluctuations have been going on since before the time of the dinosaurs. It's somewhat foolish for us to assume that Humanity is to blame (unless you suppose that Humanity has existed since the time of primordial parameciums and has had a fully geared up industrial polluting system since that time...) That these same emisions have seen to spike with global warming in the past, 10s of thousands of years ago and older, well BEFORE Humanity was on the stage strong and WELL before we had our industrial revolution, indicates that Humanity alone isn't the cause.

    The number one cause of global warming today is actually water vapor in the atmosphere. Yup, good ol' H2O is causing global warming. The danger is that as the Earth gets hotter and there are water molocules with higher kenetic energy (READ: temperature) in the oceans, then the vapor in the air increases. That we have volcanoes spewing the stuff into the sky doesn't help. Something along the lines of 70% (or greater) of global warming is caused by this alone, a full 3/4ths! Which means even if we make Hydrogen cars (who's byproduct/"waste" is water, H2O), we'll only be increasing global warming! ^_^;


    The fact of the matter is, Humans may be having an impact, albeit a small one. The truth is that the Earth right now "wants" to heat up, and the Earth is going to do what the Earth is going to do. For all our thoughts of self-importance, Humanity doesn't have power over the Earth. The Earth is going to do what the Earth is going to do, and we're pretty much just along for the ride on this little blue ball of ours. Our power to change or affect it in any way is really limited.

    That isn't to say that we shouldn't try to minimize our effect. After all, if Humans are responsible for 1% of global warming, us cutting down to 0.5% of global warming isn't a bad idea...but my point is, the Earth itself is warming...and eventually it will cool back down. Those that say it's warming and will be a permanent heat are in error. If geological history is right, it would tell us that it's a temporary condition, and a regular thing. It's a chaotic system...deterministic, but not forcastable or repeating. Chaos systems are like that, though. But the point still stands, the Earth is the Earth.

    Oh, and have a little more skepticism. Any scientist that says that Humanity is inequivocably THE cause (and the only cause) of global warming, question that. If you know much about Earth's history (as scientists today see it), which goes along with Evolutionary history, or even what we believe of Astronomic history (dealing with the formation of the Earth), then you might remember that the Earth has been much warmer than it is now...and has been much cooler than it is now. Both of which have happened well before Humanity stepped onto the stage, and also before we were driving cars or running factories.

    So while I believe it's possible Humanity may have AN impact, we're only speeding what is inevitable anyway...and the amount of impact we DO have is suspect, at best, and probably much more minimal than is being made out.

    Global warming is the reality. The cause is not certain. Anyone who says they KNOW and have PROOF that Humanity is THE cause (or largest cause/contributer) to global warming is lieing. I'd like to make it softer than that, but the truth is there's no getting around it, they ARE lieing if they say it. The Earth was warming (out of the middle ages) before the industrial revolution, and has simply continued to warm after it. To blame it all on Humanity is to show a great deal of stupidity or bias. Which it is on the part of those who are lieing I can't say, though I imagine the latter.

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    Re: Global awaking

    Matt, I don't know where you're getting your information, but you're repeating all the excuses I used to rely on until I studied under people wrestling with the actual data.

    Here are some real facts:

    the rate of increase of CO2 in the atmosphere since the start of the Industrial Revolution is unmatched even remotely anywhere in the geological record

    the rate of increase in temperature in the oceans in that same time period is unmatched anywhere in the geological record. one oceanology guy at the university was desperately trying to find that this wasn't so; he didn't want to believe there was a correlation... but there it was.

    increase in air temperature due to increase in the concentration of CO2 has been proven on several scales, and fits the computer models of what's known from the geological record quite well

    increased kinetic energy of water molecules in the atmosphere is not a cause of warming; it's a symptom. those molecules are absorbing more heat for a reason, and that reason is the cause. the cause is, on one level, an increase in the retention of heat by the earth's atmosphere. ordinary chemistry demonstrates that CO2 and methane, among other gases, are part of the mechanism by which heat is retained, and that their increase results in elevated hear retention.

    the rate of the rise in sea level since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution is unmatched anywhere in the geological record

    since the start of the Industrial Revolution, the estimated production of CO2 alone matches very well the rise in global temperatures, as well as the predicted increase from chemical models

    Dude, all these things fit together too tightly to deny that the big culprit in global warming is humans burning things. They also show that we can't tell ourselves things are fine because temperatures have gone this high before, because it isn't the height of the temperatures, it's the rate of increase. I'll compare it to a lady, not in really good shape, swimming some laps, then getting into the hot tub. If she gets in slowly, letting parts of her body adjust to the heat gradually, she;ll be fine -- but if she just jumps in all at once, she has a heart attack.
    In case someone doesn't think that example flies, I was just coming on duty as lifeguard at the time, and my shift partner was the one who dialed 911. She'd been at lap swim all week, and I and some other lifeguards had made sure she got in slowly... this time, the guards hadn't been paying attention, and she just got in, and the sudden change in heat -- the rate of increase -- overwhelmed her system, and she bought a trip to the hospital.
    That lady was a biological system subjected to thermal stress. The planetary ecosystem is also a biological system, and we're subjecting it to unprecedented thermal stress.
    I leave the conclusion as an exercise for the student.

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    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Global awaking

    Eh, I've gone from a 70 degree pool into a hot tub before, and once or twice back in, but I don't really like going from hot to cold much. ^_^


    Well, my data is two years old, so maybe you're right, but they didn't show as much of a difference as you seem to indicate. But that said, if you're right, and the rate is different, then you need to also realize that the Earth was in a warming trend before the Industrial Revolution. While we may be speeding up a process, the process is already in the process of running. That is to say, turning on a hot tub the size of an olympic swimming pool and then peeing in it is going to make it warmer, but which actually caused the warming, the heating coils or the urine? (Yeah, kinda gross, but the point is still there.)

    As for the water vapor, I was reffering to the electromagnetic sperctra that it absorbs and reflects. The way that greenhouse gasses work is that light waves enter the Earth's atmosphere and filter down to the surface. Upon striking the actual "planet", they are absorbed by molocules. The electrons in those molocules increase in energy, temporarily, and then drop back down, emitting a new EM wave. If it drops just as far as it came up, then it will emit the exact same kind of wave. If it drops back down in "steps", then it will emit a wave for each step, and these waves will have lower energy (lower frequency, higher wavelenth) than the original incident waves.

    What greenhouse gases do is, as these NEW waves are going back up, attempting to escape the atmosphere, they happen to be of the right energy to be absorbed by the greenhouse gas molocules, and then the same process happens again, but some of the waves end up coming back down to the ground. Essentially, the greenhouse gases prevent the energy that's attempting to escape back into space from getting back out into space. What I'm saying is that water vapor IS a greenhouse gas, that is, a gas which prevents heat from being as able of escaping into space.

    Well, if you followed all that, yay! ^_^ If not...I'll try and explain it clearly (since I can explain it better than I did just then, I think.) This all comes out of Quantum Mechanics, which I, personally, don't care for very much, but it happens to be a good model, and predicts things pretty well, so whatever...guess it's good that I know some of it. ^_^


    As far as the CO2 thing, I guess my point with that is that there was a lot of it in the atmosphere in the past. That's why plants supposedly evolved before animal life, there simply wasn't enough oxygen in the atmosphere. Something happened to lower those levels...one could say the plants. -shrug- But if CO2 is so responsible, then there are a lot of other things to consider. In essence, just by brething, all animal life is, then, contributing to global warming...and yet the Earth has had cool periods since the advent of animal life forms. This indicates that there is something else going on here and we're not seeing the whole picture somehow.

    So while Humans have increased the levels, we aren't doing something the Earth hasn't done before itself. Though it is possible that we're contributing some to global warming, I'm just not sure the evidence is there to say that Humans are the greatest or even only cause of it. Though we have great potential, Humanity is still a fledgling race, and our overal power isn't all that great. That we have the capacity to overwealm a system which is much greater and longstanding than we are is a little hard to accept blindly. Which I guess is mostly what bothers me. Maybe because I'm a scientist myself, but when I hear someone say something like this, I want to see numbers, charts, and graphs. ^_^ Just because X number of "emenent scientists" have signed off on it just doesn't cut it for me. Until I see the black and white with my own eyes, I'm going to be skeptical...to be, that's the duty of any good scientist. If I believed everything that anyone told me...well, I have in the past, and I'd rather not do that anymore now that I'm old enough and smart enough to think on my own some. ^_^

    But yeah, from what I HAVE seen, there's nothing clearly saying Humans are having an overall major impact, and we certainly aren't the majority cause. Now then, there may be better data out there, but I haven't seen it released yet. If you have any, I'd love to take a look at it, though.

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    Re: Global awaking

    If you want to see better data in black, and white, with all the charts and graphs you desire, watch "An Inconvenient Truth". It came out about a month ago, and it's extremely well researched. Al Gore was nominated for the nobel peace prize for his work, which is all compiled into this documentary which has received 2 oscar nominations. He (as you learn in the movie) was also one of the first people to study the trend, as his college professor was the one who began researching it in the late 50's. I've never seen better evidence than what is presented there.

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    Re: Global awaking

    Is that his new movie? God I hope it's not so blatently unscientific as "The Day After Tomorrow". That movie was almost more of a comedy to any real scientist, and full of anti-American jabs (what with the whole, "Well, now we're all going to be illegally imigrating to Mexico!" thing.)

    Hm...you mean this: http://www.climatecrisis.net/thescience/

    WHAT IS GLOBAL WARMING?

    Carbon dioxide and other gases warm the surface of the planet naturally by trapping solar heat in the atmosphere. This is a good thing because it keeps our planet habitable. However, by burning fossil fuels such as coal, gas and oil and clearing forests we have dramatically increased the amount of carbon dioxide in the Earth’s atmosphere and temperatures are rising.

    The vast majority of scientists agree that global warming is real, it’s already happening and that it is the result of our activities and not a natural occurrence.1 The evidence is overwhelming and undeniable.

    We’re already seeing changes. Glaciers are melting, plants and animals are being forced from their habitat, and the number of severe storms and droughts is increasing.

    The number of Category 4 and 5 hurricanes has almost doubled in the last 30 years.2
    Malaria has spread to higher altitudes in places like the Colombian Andes, 7,000 feet above sea level.3
    The flow of ice from glaciers in Greenland has more than doubled over the past decade.4
    At least 279 species of plants and animals are already responding to global warming, moving closer to the poles.5

    If the warming continues, we can expect catastrophic consequences.

    Deaths from global warming will double in just 25 years -- to 300,000 people a year.6
    Global sea levels could rise by more than 20 feet with the loss of shelf ice in Greenland and Antarctica, devastating coastal areas worldwide.7
    Heat waves will be more frequent and more intense.
    Droughts and wildfires will occur more often.
    The Arctic Ocean could be ice free in summer by 2050.8
    More than a million species worldwide could be driven to extinction by 2050.9

    There is no doubt we can solve this problem. In fact, we have a moral obligation to do so. Small changes to your daily routine can add up to big differences in helping to stop global warming. The time to come together to solve this problem is now – TAKE ACTION

    As a philosopher, I have to say this is propaganda. It's stating something that everyone (well, almost everyone) already accepts; that the Earth is warming. Then, with not a single actual chart, graph, or actual number corresponding to any real data, makes the claim that Humans are the cause of this accepted fact.

    As a scientist, I have to say it's worthless to actually "prooving" anything. There are no charts, and no graphs, and there are no data backing up the base claim they make (that Humans are the cause.) There's "fluffy data", that is, all these statistics with no numbers attached "However, by burning fossil fuels such as coal, gas and oil and clearing forests we have dramatically increased the amount of carbon dioxide in the Earth’s atmosphere and temperatures are rising.", and "The vast majority of scientists agree that global warming is real, it’s already happening and that it is the result of our activities and not a natural occurrence.1 The evidence is overwhelming and undeniable."

    Note in these quotes, while they seem certain there is plenty of evidence, and it is so strong no one can deny it, they don't actually STATE the evidence and lay it out for a scrutinous scientific mind, such as my own, to so much as glance at it.


    To a regular Joe citizen, that might be good enough. To a scientist (or even a philosopher) it is not. I doubt watching that movie would do much to disaude me unless they actually supply FACTS, which their website does not. Global warming is happening, yes. It's been happening for a long time, yes. It's been happening since Humans were climbing around in treetops in Africa. Now then, the burden of proof is on them to actually SHOW that Humans are the case, which on that site (and, by extension, I believe the movie will be more of the same) they are not doing. I mean, honestly, this is like those religious people that put out "Appocolypse" movies to scare people into becoming Christians. They don't actually supply any real evidence that shows what they're saying is going to happen, or even that we're trending that direction, yet they expect people to blindly believe their propaganda. By poking around their website, "An Inconvenient Truth" is probably just the same. Opposite side of the ideological isle, maybe, but still propaganda...all fluff, no solid facts.

    ...well, solid facts on WHAT EVERYONE ALREADY AGREES ON (that global warming is happening), but not solid facts that say Humanity is responsible. That said, if I get a chance to see it, I'll probably watch it just because I like rolling my eyes at stupidity...

    But yeah, I'm a scientist. Give me numbers, not propaganda.


    Oh yeah, and for reference, peer review is what supports something as scientific, not peace prizes and oscars...shiesh. Hollywood has always been ANYTHING but scientific, and as of lately, the Nobel peace prizes have been awarded to anyone that's anti-American. I hardly consider those two things to be worthy of calling something good science.

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    Re: Global awaking

    I've seen the numbers. I've worked with the numbers. It isn't fuzzy, and more than astronomy is -- yes, there's a lot of work by inference, but like Sherlock Holmes says, when you get to the last thing, no matter how unlikely, that's it. The increase in greenhouse gases is measurable by several methods, climate and biomass data from around the world can also be tracked over time, and by the time everything is toted up, there's more CO2 and such floating around than can be accounted for -- until human activity is thrown in.

    Yes, the planet was already on a "warming trend", though how much of that was rebound from the Little Ice Age and how much an independent trend is arguable; some people even pointed to the geological record and said, "We're headed for an ice age", because, counterintuitively, the right sort of warming period can set off an ice age. A few people still argue that human activity that warms the planet is actually going to kick us into a hard, fast ice age, but ice ages aren't understood well enough for that connection to be firm, as far as I can see.

    Now that you broke it down, I see what you were saying about water vapor. That doesn't require quantum mechanics, really -- thermodynamics handles it well enough. Yeah, H2O is a greenhouse gas, one that works on a feedback cycle: H2O in the atmosphere raises the temperature, which increases evaporation, putting more H2O into the atmosphere, etc.... but then there's cloud cover, which changes the equation, and changes it differently depending on cloud altitude, temperature, density, extent, layers, latitude... and when scientists last year got a new weather model up and running that got the 'cells' used for mathematical analysis down to under 100 km -- they'd been stuck with 1000 km for years -- assumptions went flying out the cooling fan. OTOH, the model results suddenly made sense of some things Landsat was reporting, and other data, but OTOH some long-standing principles drawn from observation just evaporated -- though the data, viewed in the new light, fit the more detailed model.

    There's a lot of uncertainty because of limitations like of the computer modeling -- if they can get the program powerful enough to deal with 1 km 'cells' in the atmosphere -- stacked 100 deep! -- there's no telling what things we "know" will disappear, and what things we never guessed will become plain. But when you get down to it, there are things running through it that we do know: air and sea temperatures are rising, they're rising faster than at any time in the geological+ record, and that increase correlates well with human production of greenhouse gases.

    Being picky, no -- it isn't scientific proof. But it would be enough in any court in the world to get a search warrant, and in a lawsuit almost certainly a declaration of humanity's guilt. Even if we don't believe it, if we can conjecture some unknown source that's doing this (ignoring the fact that the increase matches human activity), there's not much choice but to fight it. For one thing that was made pretty darned plain in meteorology and oceanology both, the predictions made by global warming models, based on human activity, are tracking frighteningly well -- including, again counterinuitively, this winter's rash of record cold across much of North America; "heat", as so nicely pointed out earlier, is kinetic energy, and by increasing the kinetic energy of the system, you also get more radical movements of air masses, and that means cold air going farther than usual, and warm air going farther -- though warm air has a tendency to generate more powerful storms... just what we got in the hurricane season.

    I do have to agree that "overwhelming and undeniable" is a bit of an overstatement; some reputable scientists do dispute it, which they wouldn't if that label was accurate. But it's not easily deniable, and it is very whelming. And if the version the media paint -- oversimplifying, always -- is accurate, there's not much room for wiggling away. Even if it might be accurate, the predictions from the models are terrifying enough we should have been acting vigorously back when Al Gore wasn't exactly inventing the internet.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Global awaking

    A nice, well thought out response. Hehe, as always, Kulindahr, you do not dissapoint. And you also realize the problem I have with the people making claims but not showing some data to back them up. Both good things on your part. ^_^

    Is this data of yours out anywhere on the net where I could have a look at it? I'd like to see it for myself. Given, geology and meteorology aren't my specialities, my knowledge of physics makes them pretty accessible for me if I can see them. (On, and what I meant of QM was that the electron motions in their "orbits", the wavenlength/frequency [more precicely, energy] that both is used to exite them and given off as they drop back down; those are all results of QM theory. It doesn't require one to know QM to understand it, but it does to calculate which frequencies and the amounts of energy moving around.)

    But you see what I mean, right? The stuff in the media and popular environmental movies and propaganda make claims, but they don't actually support them to anyone with any sense of scruteny. It's no wonder so many people, scientists and non-scientists, dispute that Humans are the cause. If people would just provide evidence that they used to come to their conclusions when actually presenting them to the public and to scientists, then they'd get a lot more people agreeing with them.

    Since they don't present these facts, that alone is enough to make me question their conclusions. After all, if the evidence was so solid, I would think they'd be going out of their way to actually put the charts, graphs, and numbers on everything they can. After all, if someone tells me they have a conclusion, and that it's true, but won't show me any of the data they used to arrive at that conclusion, then my natural tendency is to assume they're pushing an agenda and don't actually have any facts (after all, if they did, they'd be sharing them in an attempt to convert me to their view, right?) ^_^


    So, uh...yeah, do you have a link to a place where I can see some numbers and black lines on white charts? ^_^

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    Re: Global awaking

    Quote Originally Posted by radical matt View Post
    A nice, well thought out response. Hehe, as always, Kulindahr, you do not dissapoint. And you also realize the problem I have with the people making claims but not showing some data to back them up. Both good things on your part. ^_^

    Is this data of yours out anywhere on the net where I could have a look at it? I'd like to see it for myself. Given, geology and meteorology aren't my specialities, my knowledge of physics makes them pretty accessible for me if I can see them. (On, and what I meant of QM was that the electron motions in their "orbits", the wavenlength/frequency [more precicely, energy] that both is used to exite them and given off as they drop back down; those are all results of QM theory. It doesn't require one to know QM to understand it, but it does to calculate which frequencies and the amounts of energy moving around.)

    But you see what I mean, right? The stuff in the media and popular environmental movies and propaganda make claims, but they don't actually support them to anyone with any sense of scruteny. It's no wonder so many people, scientists and non-scientists, dispute that Humans are the cause. If people would just provide evidence that they used to come to their conclusions when actually presenting them to the public and to scientists, then they'd get a lot more people agreeing with them.

    Since they don't present these facts, that alone is enough to make me question their conclusions. After all, if the evidence was so solid, I would think they'd be going out of their way to actually put the charts, graphs, and numbers on everything they can. After all, if someone tells me they have a conclusion, and that it's true, but won't show me any of the data they used to arrive at that conclusion, then my natural tendency is to assume they're pushing an agenda and don't actually have any facts (after all, if they did, they'd be sharing them in an attempt to convert me to their view, right?) ^_^


    So, uh...yeah, do you have a link to a place where I can see some numbers and black lines on white charts? ^_^
    Last time I saw the data I'm mostly thinking of it was pinned up on display boards, walls, partitions, and even ceiling of a large office in the geology building at OSU. I should hope they've gotten around to publishing it somewhere. If I can drag myself out of the lethargy I'm in after meeting some kool guys at the bar, then having to drive back to my stupid little homophobic town, I'll see what a web hunt can get me. I'm not going to be too optimistic, though; research professors can sit on stuff for years until either they get the bugs out satisfactorily or they hear someone else is going to beat them into print....

    Thinking of the graphs Dr. Chambers (botanist, married to a geobotanist) asked me to look at one day, I remember that the change in the line for CO2 concentration didn't look impressive until I tackled it from a thermodynamics perspective, and then my mind did this little flip and played a gedankenexperiment: I saw the graph inverted, and the lines -- the expected and the actual -- as slopes, and me on a mountain bike going down one while my clone took the other. It struck me that I have done biking when a certain slope can go on for tens of miles and if I just coast freely I'll reach a maximum speed that is such that I can still brake and come to a stop -- but on a very slightly steeper slope, within just a few miles I would be losing control and at a speed where braking would be death.
    With that I realized that it's a matter of systems equilibrium, and that the real difficulty is that no one actually knows -- to revert to the image that struck me -- at what point the slope is too steep. I saw a set of three essays by some big-time climate scientists a while back, all based on the same data; one argued we're riding the point of no return, one said we have ten or twelve years, and the other said if we get things under control in the next twenty to twenty-five it's all good. But they all agreed on one thing: there is a point of no return, and we are close.

    So we need to get our act together. Personally I don't think we're gonna make it; the human race is too massive to get moving together on something of this scale, and its individual parts too willing to decide someone else will do it so we don't have to. Even nations who signed on to Kyoto are buying out of meeting the goals... while some nations that didn't sign on are doing better than would have been required!

    Really wandering, here, I'm going to take a moment to dispute the notion of a point of no return. That suffers from the same fatal flaw that the notion of a planet running out of metals does: it forgets that we are not limited to the resources down here! If presidents had followed recommendations of some of the advisory boards back in the late sixties and early seventies, we would currently looking skyward at a solution to the limited-metals problem that could be turned to the global warming problem: giant mirrors in orbit. For metals, those mirrors would be solar ovens -- robot probes go out and haul back nickel-iron asteroids to earth's orbit, robots crunch the asteroids and shove the material into the focus of one of those giant mirrors, and you have an orbital refinery/smelter! But a mirror which can concentrate heat can also redirect it -- away from the earth, cooling things down again. We even have the materials and the plans for such mirrors, and if memory serves correctly, it was the French who designed one using memory-metal and memory-plastics that could be packed into a shuttle cargo bay, taken up,and just dumped into the desired orbit -- sunlight would make the thing unfold and even correctly aim itself. And a number of bright fellows have figured out how many of those mirrors -- 1 km across, by the way -- would be required. Heck, NASA has somewhere in its files rough plans for cooling Venus to habitable levels by blocking sunlight with orbital mirrors!
    To really think outside the box... we could pack up CO2 and send it to Mars, which could use the heat.....

    Okay, I wander when I get into some things. This one I'm into because while I've been devoting major hours to a community-benefit conservation and safety project over the last 6+ years, I've watched the bluff along that stretch of beach retreating steadily, at exactly the pace we calculated in oceanology class... and on a gut level, that's pretty darned convincing.

    I'm not saying humans started it, or caused it -- but the evidence to me is indeed overwhelming on one point: as we mis-sang when I was at university, "We didn't start the fire, but we're grabbin' fuel, just keep pilin' it higher!" Humans are an added stressor that the planet can't take, as we are; we have to learn to live with it, not just on it.

    Heh -- or as Isaac Asimov suggested, we could all move to orbital habitats and let the earth be one big national park.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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