PC Vs Mac

[fash_mag_slag]

I've used PCs for many years but i got a Mac Powerbook a few months ago and i'm totally in love with it. I'd never buy a PC again. Which do you prefer?

[gewhite3]

PC... always

[T-Rexx]

I like Macs but they're too expensive.

PCs are cheaper but Windows is too unstable and insecure. Also, Windows itself is starting to get expensive with the new licensing schemes and prices.

Mostly I use Linux, but it doesn't have enough support yet from hardware manufacturers and software developers.

[JustBoys05]

I used to have a PC, now I'm into Mac. Actually the only reason I'm using Mac because I love the Mac Pro designs

[Keeland]

Here's a list of Mac myths on a Mac site. The post is relatively up to date, from January. Machines since that time are faster. The post tops a thread of responses for and against the list.

I've had Macs since 1990, and used them since '86. Never a virus, never any spyware. The only viruses for OS X are lab-created proof-of-concepts. I don't run an anti-virus app. Any that exist for Macs are to stop Macs from sending on Windows viruses in forwarded emails. Macs don't know the viruses exist.

[bshane]

MAC's are ok for people who don't work with others and don't want to share documents with PC users. Also you cannot buy nearly as many software titles. If you are in the business world MACs make your life more difficult. However, over the years Apple has made the MAC be able to interact more with the PC. Why would Apple do this? Because most of the world is PC.

MACs use to be faster in some cases when they were using the very powerful Power PC made by IBM. IBM still uses a similar processor in their very high end Power (RS6000) servers. However, now MAC went to Intel just during this last year.

Lots of schools use to have MACs as Apple gave very good incentives. I use to be an Admin for a large school district and also have friends doing so. Most of them have went to PCs to give the students better preparation for the business world where in 99% of the cases they will be using a PC in some way when they begin their working years.

I am not saying Microsoft is the best. However its whats known. Since OS X is mostly linux. You can get a copy of SUSE linux or any flavor you want and if you are savy you can easily get your version of linux to out perform a MAC any day. PC is the way to go.

[thermodynamics]

I'm a PC guy. Windows XP crashes only rarely (less than once a month) for me (and I run some pretty intense stuff). I worked at a photo studio that got a new G5 Dual a few years ago. OS X definitely had some stability problems. We could crash it a few times per month (running PHotoshop mainly).

As far as I'm concerned, they're almost even stability-wise. XP is really quite good. There's a lot of reputation to deal with, and it's hard to break that.

Another reason...I'm addicted to TrackPoints, which means I'm stuck with IBM/Lenovo laptops.

Yet another reason...I've got a ton of Windows software.

Yet another reason...Pro|Engineer, a 3D CAD package exists for UNIX and Windows.

I know that the whole BootCamp package can let me run those pieces of software, but then there's the cost problem.

A PC will be cheaper for the same performance.

So, I'm stuck in PC land.

[Keeland]

MAC's are ok for people who don't work with others and don't want to share documents with PC users.

Microsoft makes Word for Mac, and Office, and always has. There was Microsoft Word for the Mac before there was Microsoft Word for Windows. Everything in Word and Office is cross-platform seamless, including macro viruses (Microsoft viruses, not Mac viruses.) So is Photoshop. So is InDesign. So is QuarkXpress. You wouldn't know, and couldn't, whether you were looking at an Office doc created on a Mac or a Windows box.

Also you cannot buy nearly as many software titles.

How many apps do you have? How many do you use? How many word processors do you need? If there are 150,000 Windows apps, would you buy them all because you can? From a rack in the 7-Eleven? Anyway, with Boot Camp or Parallels, you can run Windows on a Mac. PC Magazine says Macs run Windows faster and cleaner than any consumer Windows box they've tested. One of the reasons: There is no registry. And over time there is no sludge build-up and OS slowdown.

If you are in the business world MACs make your life more difficult.

Why? They make life more difficult for IT departments because only one person is needed to maintain every 90 to 100 Macs. IT departments denigrate Macs because they are protecting their jobs. No viruses, no spyware, no registry, nothing else that plagues Windows machines, including the Microsoft tax . . . er, predatory licensing fees. Easy networking, easy wireless. Self-defragging, no MS tax.

However, over the years Apple has made the MAC be able to interact more with the PC. Why would Apple do this? Because most of the world is PC.

Yep. But come the revolution. . . . Actually, the revolution might be very soon, thanks to the Vista fiasco.

MACs use to be faster in some cases when they were using the very powerful Power PC made by IBM. IBM still uses a similar processor in their very high end Power (RS6000) servers. However, now MAC went to Intel just during this last year.

Because the company Motorola spun off (they were Motorola chips) was screwing Apple. So Apple switched to Intel. Macs aren't slower than before. They are more than twice as fast.

Lots of schools use to have MACs as Apple gave very good incentives. I use to be an Admin for a large school district and also have friends doing so. Most of them have went to PCs to give the students better preparation for the business world where in 99% of the cases they will be using a PC in some way when they begin their working years.

That's a myth. There's hardly any difference, especially when using Microsoft Office or Word. Or Quark. Or InDesign. Or any Adobe product. The only difference running those apps or any app is pushing the Command key instead of the Control key to cut and paste. Running a GUI isn't rocket science.

I am not saying Microsoft is the best.

Yes, you are. That's all you've said.

However its whats known. Since OS X is mostly linux. You can get a copy of SUSE linux or any flavor you want and if you are savy you can easily get your version of linux to out perform a MAC any day.

Cite?

PC is the way to go.

You have be be more than savvy. You have to be a computer geek. You could say that same thing about dropping a Ferrari engine into a Yugo. Who'd be bothered?

[Orlandude]

I'll take PC and Windows XP is very stable. I've never had a problem or a crash with it and find it very forgiving. I have no problem with MAC. They are a great machine although I find them used mostly in high graphics situations and with people who use a lot of graphics applications. I have an older MAC that still runs. I just prefer PC.

[jasboi2004]

I used to have PC but never again. Macs are so much better. Never had a virus with a Mac and I always seem to have got them on a PC.

The OS X interface (desktop etc) is so much better then XP.

For those who are unsure visit apple.com and watch the TV ads. They are so funny.

[dash85]

mac's are the best!!

[_AJ_]

1 thing that does shit me is people who have macs saying we cant get viruses it just not true if mac had the market share microsoft had there would be tons of viruses for macs but they dont go after the 3-5% that have macs because they can cause much more havok making a virus for windows

i would buy a mac but the only problem is that when i look at value i can get a better spec pc made for normally a few hundred dollars less

also i have never had stability issues with XP it seems that only mac users have these issues funny that

[Pyramus11]

I got a fair bit of money for my birthday last month, and I think I will for christmas, so I'm considering buying a Mac to supplement my PC, if only to play around with it, to see if I like it.

I'm thinking about getting one of those Mac Mini's, and maybe a nice Apple monitor to replace my IBM LCD.

[provenlogic]

PC only. Macs suck donkey balls.

[Paws]

BeOS


_____

[lonestar]

I run both, but I really prefer a PC. Mine runs stable and I never had problems with spyware or viruses. MacOS is not bad, but the software is not that good. And let's face it: it's terrible expansive.

It might also have to do with my really bad Mac related experience lately .

Even though I do my online banking only from my mac

[rotary]

Back in elementary school, our librarian taught us how to use Macs. Ever since then, I can't look at a Mac desktop without having a flashback of her unshaved armpits.

Guess I'll stick to PC.

[ANDORYUU]

At home an iMac, at work some Dell Crap running some Windows Crap!

[JohannBessler]

I'm a PC guy. Windows XP crashes only rarely (less than once a month) for me (and I run some pretty intense stuff).

lol! My aging eMac has only crashed two times in the last three years!

MAC's are ok for people who don't work with others and don't want to share documents with PC users.... Since OS X is mostly linux. You can get a copy of SUSE linux or any flavor you want and if you are savy you can easily get your version of linux to out perform a MAC any day. PC is the way to go.

1. That's simply not true. All PC documents are either readable or translatable in OSX.
2. Linux is too hard for everybody except computer experts.


All this being said, I'm not a Mac goon; I simply prefer Macs. PCs have a lot of wonderful advantages. The software availability is probably the best one. PCs are the platform of choice if you're a gamer--there's no comparison on that front.

However, if you prefer security--with only one virus ever written--no spyware, etc, Macs are better. Plus, I find the interface a whole lot more intuitive for the user. (Example--I use an alternate keyboard; on PCs you have to go through six steps or so to change the keyboard. On my Mac, it's one single click on the desktop.)

It just all depends upon your personal needs/preferences.

[gewhite3]

The only reason Macs never get viruses is because PC's are the standard around the world and that's what virus developers want to do, infect as many computers as possible. Can't do that by targeting Macs, not worth the effort.

With all this bragging about how Macs don't get viruses it wouldn't surprise me if somebody wrote one specifically for mac just to prove it can be done, and I hope they do just to prove a point. I'm sure Macs are not completely invulnerable.

If you are a PC user with half a brain, you don't get viruses anyway. I've been a PC user for many many years and have never once been infected. Sure, I have virus protection software but I'm not stupid. If you have a PC you do need it. However, it won't make me switch to Mac, ever.

[mike_n_herrin]

i've only had win xp crash like 2-3 times in the 4-5 years i've had it. i've had software that after i install windows was screwed up, but windows xp hasn't just like crashed like 95, 98, or Me did.

i tried learning to use a mac in grad school and i couldn't ever seem to get the hang of it. I like PCs and i like being able to use linux when i want to (knoppix RULES).

[Matt1809]

Windows for me.

[NYGACU]

I have both as well, and I believe they each have their place in the platform world. Of course, my Mac has a proper name (Chad) - while I just call my PC "bastard child".

[Paws]

because PC's are the standard around the world

Not in the graphic design world

[Clooneyesque]

PC -- I'm too lazy to learn a whole new computer routine and I've heard PC's are more user friendly.

There does seem to be a certain amount of snobbery amongst MAC users. There's this coffee house in the college town I live in where you'll only see MAC laptop users. You'd probably get coffee grounds thrown at you if you came in with a PC laptop!

[bw92116]

Macs are superior in every way. PCs only became massively popular because they were a lot cheaper than Macs 20 years ago. There is no real problem sharing files between Macs and PCs. Most major programs are available for both, so it's extremely simple to open a file on one or the other, if you have the programs. Even if you don't have the program used to create the file there are plenty of translation programs. I get .doc, .xls, .pdf and .wmv files all the time which were created on PCs and I can open them, view them and use them on my Mac, even without the original programs. I can save in these formats (except .wmv) and give the files to PC users. I can't think of one single reason to buy a PC any more.

[General_Alfie]

All this being said, I'm not a Mac goon; I simply prefer Macs. PCs have a lot of wonderful advantages. The software availability is probably the best one. PCs are the platform of choice if you're a gamer--there's no comparison on that front.

The availability of software is a huge plus for the PC. For example, I switched to mac last year and so far as I know, there isn't an equal to MS "Project" or MS "Visio," two apps that I really must use.

Plus, I find the interface a whole lot more intuitive for the user. (Example--I use an alternate keyboard; on PCs you have to go through six steps or so to change the keyboard. On my Mac, it's one single click on the desktop.)

It just all depends upon your personal needs/preferences.

I still enjoy my PC, an Ultra320 SCSI rig that I built two years ago, but the mac has an unexplainable elegance about it, it does things with graphics and video editing that are far more cumbersome on a PC. The mac is slower, a bit pokey, but it's also like a favorite sweater or a comfortable old pair of shoes, the clothes we wear when we want to relax and savor the better things in life. I treat my PC like a rented mule, or a rented car that I hate driving but need in order to get somewhere. Plus the mac doesn't get fucking clap or crabs or other e-VD on the "Internets."

[JohannBessler]

The only reason Macs never get viruses is because PC's are the standard around the world and that's what virus developers want to do, infect as many computers as possible. Can't do that by targeting Macs, not worth the effort.

Gewhite, I'm not a computer expert, but I have heard that something about Unix intrinsically makes it much more difficult than Windows to write a virus for. This same caveat would go for Linux, too.

Perhaps Davy or Corny would be able to shed more light on this aspect of Unix?

[gewhite3]

Not in the graphic design world

Did I use the word "graphic" in my reply...........No. I already knew that but I said WORLD. There is a difference.

[JohannBessler]

The interesting thing is that I've seen quite a few Asians using Macs.

I believe (but can't be sure) this is because switching between Chinese Simplified and English keyboards is done in a split-second--the Apple/SpaceBar combination.

[BrandonSBCA]

I've used Mac's in school when I was doing design works, Websites, Flash Animation, Photoshop design, Illustrator design. PC's are best used for gaming and other things. So my thoughts and opinion if you so choose to flame me for:

PC's are good for

Gaming
Internet
Music
Movies
Some Photoshop design
Some Web design
Chatting and webcamming
Etc.

PC's are bad for

Movie editing
Flash Animation editing
3D animation

Mac's are good for

Internet
Security
iTunes
Music
Movies
Picture designing
Sound Editing
Web Design
Flash Animation
Movie Editing
Flash Animation
3D Animation
etc

Mac's are bad for

Gaming
MP3 Players
Chatting

I haven't used a Mac in a long time so I'm not sure what else it's good for. But I've heard from people that chatting isn't that great unless you use services that are strictly for Mac's, unlike Yahoo not much features are available like the PC version has.

[NYGACU]

I've used Mac's in school when I was doing design works, Websites, Flash Animation, Photoshop design, Illustrator design. PC's are best used for gaming and other things. So my thoughts and opinion if you so choose to flame me for:
Mac's are bad for

Gaming
MP3 Players
Chatting

I haven't used a Mac in a long time so I'm not sure what else it's good for. But I've heard from people that chatting isn't that great unless you use services that are strictly for Mac's, unlike Yahoo not much features are available like the PC version has.

Not sure I understand how chatting is any different with a Mac than a PC. All the standards are supported on a Mac with the same functionality.

[BrandonSBCA]

Not sure I understand how chatting is any different with a Mac than a PC. All the standards are supported on a Mac with the same functionality.

Yeah but from what I hear they don't have a calling function and other things that the PC version does. But I could be wrong.

[JohannBessler]

Mac's are bad for

Gaming
MP3 Players
Chatting

I agree with this except for mp3 Players. Mp3 players? I'm puzzled; ipods were made for Macs first and were ported to PCs, not the other way around.

Or are you referring to the less-popular, off brands?

[BrandonSBCA]

I agree with this except for mp3 Players. Mp3 players? I'm puzzled; ipods were made for Macs first and were ported to PCs, not the other way around.

Or are you referring to the less-popular, off brands?

Yeah like Creative, sadly their Zen MP3 Players aren't compatible with Macs. I found Creative Products to be more user friendly compared to iPod's. But I saw the list of MP3's that iTunes and Mac support and it seemed like a small list. Unless Apple's official website is pulling my chain. Compared to PC's where they work on a lot of MP3 Players.

[SexyGuy]

Personally, I haven't used a Mac, yet, but I will be buying one sometime in the future. I am currently on my 3rd or 4th computer due to Windows crashing on me. The first time was with an old OS: I think it was Windows 98 or 95...Pretty sure it was 98. Crashed on me whenever I tried to run simple programs...Then there was my hybrid, frankenstein computer. Don't get me wrong, it was a good computer, OS was Windows XP, good processor, etc, but one glitch: it was a bootleg, unbeknownst to me. Then when I tried to download a patch for Adobe Acrobat Reader...well...it crashed...and stayed crashed. Those two computers are in the basement, collecting dust and god knows what...And I have my current computer, which is good, but slow at times...

And that is why I am going to convert to Mac. True, expensive, but worth it in the long run...

[T-Rexx]

^ Since you already have the hardware sitting around in the basement, SexyGuy, you ought to play around with trying out Linux on it. It won't cost a thing, and you might well be surprised at how well Linux runs even on older, less robust hardware.

Go to www.distrowatch.com and download Ubuntu or Fedora Core 6 or Gentoo or SimplyMEPIS or Knoppix or anything or even everything that looks interesting. Or download BSD (that's what Mac OS X is anyway) and see how it runs on your old x86 hardware.

Rather than throw out that old stuff, you might convert it into a Tivo-like PVR, an audio file server for your stereo system, a firewall/internet appliance for a home network, whatever.

[ANDORYUU]

Not sure I understand how chatting is any different with a Mac than a PC. All the standards are supported on a Mac with the same functionality.

Most chat functions are the same, however VIDEO is poorly provided for the Mac by most instant messaging services, including the widely used and recently updated MS Messenger for Mac 6.0.1.

I don't use Yahoo! Messenger or AIM. I prefer iChat and Skype (BETA) 2.5.0.63 which has video.

I have had varied success with others. I may get video but no sound, or the video is unable to be tunneled therefore it looks like I'm watching a flickbook comic, others I can see them but they can't see me.

[sheep]

A reoccuring theme in this thread is the availability of large numbers of business applications for windows. It has already been discussed that MS Office is available for both platforms. At one time there was a lack of accounting software for the Mac, but at last count there are 23 packages. In addition to this I got 69 pages of google hits for open source free packages.
Windows and Mac files are generally readable cross platform.
Another way either windows or Mac based businesses can save is with X-Serve server. And because an unlimited client license for Mac OS X Server is included at no additional cost, you can save hundreds, or even thousands, of dollars on licensing fees. Microsoft will shaft you with a fee for every user.

It is a pity that Apple didn't release a windose version of iChat along with the iSight camera. Video conferencing at 30 fps with a maximum of 4 or 5 people in the conference. Large size window and high quality too. But that may be a moot point because when Vista gets into wider circulation, I feel the number of windows users jumping ship to the Mac side will increase rapidly.
As far as pricing goes, the last published comparison I saw had equivalent desktop and laptops at $50. less for Mac than Dell.

[teadrinker]

The best computer is the one which: supports your lifetsyle, supports your work and play, and fits in best with your usage style. Macs are brilliantly engineered, and probably have the best integration of hardware and software, whereas PCs have the market share. For myself, I use linux, because it best supports the way I think.

OS wars - love 'em.

-T.

[beekman001]

For me Windows all the way. Sure MacOS X is pretty, and functional but as a developer my primary concern is ease of development. Writing applications for a Mac is simply HARD. A much smaller percentage of developers know Coco than Win32 and ASP.Net is becoming the best way to write web-apps. Even as a web developer I have issues supporting Safari because it's got some pretty glaring gaps (eg dynamic styles) in its poorly documented api support. Given that something like 75% of software is small applications which are custom developed for business processes, this has been a major hindrance to the Mac's acceptance in the business world.

From a management standpoint, OS X made it much easier to administer lots of macs, but there's still nowhere near the level of 'Enterprise support' that Windows or even Linux has.


to address sheep's latest comments
1) Most admins worth their salt even in 100% Microsoft shops run Samba for their file & print servers cause it performs much better on the same hardware.

2) OS X cant run most of my custom-developed server applications which is what matters in a server.

3) sure you can get 1-10 Mac's cheaper than the equivalent pc but can you get 500-5000 cheaper, generally no because apple doesn't do the type of volume discounting that Dell, HP & Lenovo do.


I also dont buy the argument that Macs are somehow fundamentally better than PCs for "Media" (Graphic Design, Video / Audio editing). I've not heard of a single professional media software package which is available for the mac but not the PC. The argument that "Graphics people know Mac OS" is not honestly a consideration.

[JohannBessler]

I also dont buy the argument that Macs are somehow fundamentally better than PCs for "Media" (Graphic Design, Video / Audio editing). I've not heard of a single professional media software package which is available for the mac but not the PC. The argument that "Graphics people know Mac OS" is not honestly a consideration.

LOL! There are many of those that don't agree with you on this issue.

The trouble is that Adobe, et. al., write the graphics software first and best for the Mac platform, because that's where the graphics artists are. The PC versions of these products are ported products; such errata as Gaussian blurs, etc, process much faster on a Mac.

It's the opposite of MSOffice, where the target is Windows users first, and Macusers have to use a ported product. (I've heard that MSOFFICE for the Mac has some features Windows users don't have, though.)

Like you said, though, there is many custom software written for Windows. But think about this--Windows can be run on Macs now; natively, not ported or emulated. One can even run Windows and Mac OSX in side-by-side windows. Your custom software would run fine in that environment.

There's almost no reason to buy a Wintel anymore, except for price.

[Matt1809]

There's almost no reason to buy a Wintel anymore, except for price.

Or, you know, selection.

[lonestar]

It's the opposite of MSOffice, where the target is Windows users first, and Macusers have to use a ported product. (I've heard that MSOFFICE for the Mac has some features Windows users don't have, though.)

God, I hate Office:mac. I have to use it day by day for hourse and i just want to f'cking scream every time.

The performance is not that good and I'm just not that productive on word for mac as on word 2003.

My next notebook will run windows!

[JohannBessler]

God, I hate Office:mac. I have to use it day by day for hourse and i just want to f'cking scream every time.

That's my point, exactly. Ported applications always seem inferior to the real product.

The graphics design software was made for Macs first then ported to Windows, and that's why graphics design on Windows is slower, more cumbersome, and somewhat limited.

We have both platforms at work; Macs are used for the graphics work and Windows for everything else.

[Thyratron]

Let me end the ancient "Macs are for video and graphic design" belief. Final Cut Pro only recently got up to scratch and Adobe has only just begun to get its head around x86 under Mac, and is yet to produce any software for the x86 Mac. Early x86 alpha builds of Photoshop don't count.

You get the Final Cut Pro suite for video on a Mac. It's ameteurish, lacks the colaboration tools of other established PC variants and due to the tight hardware/software integration of Macs, Avid (the only other option) is unstable.

Mac video editors comprise small time wedding video editors, porn producers and skateboarders who edit their footage from a hospital bed.

PC video editors, depending on their level of involvment in the industry, can choose from Premiere, Avid, Vegas or more editing software and combine them with After Effects, Fusion, Nuke or others. They make music videos, TV shows and feature films, generally without a Mac in sight. Unless they hollowed out an old CRT iMac, filled it with sand and are using it as an ashtray.

The best visual effects artists (but not so much editors) work under Linux. They model in Maya (now Autodesk's bitch) and composite in Inferno.

Publishing houses who use Macs and PCs to create magazines are praying for the day Macs get their act together. Adobe Creative Suite on a Mac has major interoperability problems, loses fonts and causes serious downtime.

I know a lot of designers who are long time Mac users who are switching to PC, simply because they can't afford failure close to deadline.

The graphics artists ain't at a Mac anymore. Only the pretentious art-student wankers are, the ones who believe that graphics still equals Macintosh and aren't aware that Apple changed their slogan from "think Different" to "CONFORM!!!" many years ago.

Oh, and they're based on BSD, not Linux.

[Keeland]

Pissing contest Part 2,978

Vista, Shmista. It's a disaster.

I see from the BBC's website that consumers "are being forced to wait until late January" for their copies of Windows Vista and my blood boils at such sloppy journalism. No one is forcing me to wait for Vista. I will, of my own free choice, wait happily for the rest of my life before I install a new Windows operating system, and I actually know how to install one. Most consumers haven't got a clue. They are no more being "forced to wait" for Vista than they are being forced to wait for the chance of performing open-heart surgery on their grannies.

<snip>

Only the computer industry could sell as an "upgrade" a program which allows the seller at any moment, and at their own discretion, to cripple the computer that it runs on.

<snip>

At Christmas, we had a new MP3 player. This could not be charged with any music at all unless it was connected to a computer running XP. The only reason for this is that XP makes it easier to restrict the copying of DRM-protected files. Since I have no interest in buying such music, this feature is of no possible use to me. It merely means that a perfectly good piece of hardware which just cost £130 won't load music from my computer unless I pay £140 for an upgrade to my operating system as well. It is in any case technically illegal to rip music from CDs to load on to an MP3 player, but with all these upgrades the technology has caught up with the law so it will become physically impossible to do the things that copyright holders wish to prevent.

But despite his angst over Microsoft's usual bullshit, the writer goes on to display the depth of his Stockholm Syndrome mentality.

In a year's time it will be more or less impossible to buy a computer that does not have Vista on it. . . .

Fuckin' moron.

[sheep]

Let me end the ancient "Macs are for video and graphic design" belief. Oh, and they're based on BSD, not Linux.

Brandon, I see you opened a new account here at JUB!

For the record, BSD is a version of Unix.

I have a friend that has been using Final Cut Pro on his Mac G5 for a couple of years. He gave up on the Avid system because it was too slow. Also note that he is not a porn producer editing from his hospital bed.

I am not a graphic artist or desktop publisher but I do own a business which I have run with the help of Macs since 1987 when the pc peeps were running DOS. I am still using a piece of software from the early '90's and my computer is 4.5 years old and isn't about to be changed any time soon. The last OS I bought was $129.00 Canadian, a bargain considering the price for Vista. Note that every OS upgrade makes my computer faster. Also note that my computer has never needed to be repaired.

I am Microsoft free but that could change if Microsoft created anything that didn't suck. Not holding my breath tho--they have been around for over 20 years and never have.

[Just_Believe18]

You guys need to see this:

http://video.on.nytimes.com/ifr_main...72229.39155634

Windows Vista vs. Mac OS X

[sheep]

You guys need to see this:

http://video.on.nytimes.com/ifr_main...72229.39155634

Windows Vista vs. Mac OS X

And if you have more time, go to
http://www.ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalks...ey=david_pogue