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View Poll Results: Is it OK to OUT politicians?

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  • I'm a Republican - Yes

    2 5.26%
  • I'm a Democrat - Yes

    17 44.74%
  • I'm a Republican - No

    1 2.63%
  • I'm a Democrat - No

    18 47.37%
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  1. #1
    Delusions of Adequacy MadeUpName27's Avatar
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    OK to OUT Politicians?

    In your opinion, is it acceptable to OUT closeted politicians?
    "For your benefit, learn from our tragedy. It is not a written law that the next victims must be Jews."
    ~ ~ ~ Simon Wiesenthal ~ ~ ~

  2. #2
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattieMich View Post
    Just the two parties? *huffs and walks away*
    Bro - I type with two fingers...
    Gimme a break...
    "For your benefit, learn from our tragedy. It is not a written law that the next victims must be Jews."
    ~ ~ ~ Simon Wiesenthal ~ ~ ~

  3. #3
    Delusions of Adequacy MadeUpName27's Avatar
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    As for MY opinion -

    I value Honesty.
    I loathe Hypocrisy.

    Out the Fuckers!
    They made the decision to become politicians, let them deal with the consequences of their actions...
    "For your benefit, learn from our tragedy. It is not a written law that the next victims must be Jews."
    ~ ~ ~ Simon Wiesenthal ~ ~ ~

  4. #4
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    absolutely not, unless they're hypocrites who vote against gay rights it's not anyone's business. hypocrisy, however, makes it everyone's business.
    "Yo mama is so fat she can't even jump to a conclusion!"


  5. #5

    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Never, unless they are voting for legislation that sets back gay rights. If they abstain or not using their oppurtunity to help gay rights, then it would always be wrong to out them.

    I disagree and disapointed in them, but it is their right to do so.

    And what no space for Libertarians, let alone the more "broad" Independent?

  6. #6
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    i'm sure the original poster realizes that those gays who say they're libertarian vote repbulican anyway. saying they're libertarian is just an attempt to assuage their guilt over it.
    "Yo mama is so fat she can't even jump to a conclusion!"


  7. #7

    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by james1200 View Post
    i'm sure the original poster realizes that those gays who say they're libertarian vote repbulican anyway. saying they're libertarian is just an attempt to assuage their guilt over it.
    Depends on the race for me, I have voted for Democrat and Republican candidates

    So please continue the sterotyping.

  8. #8
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    oh, you know i will.
    "Yo mama is so fat she can't even jump to a conclusion!"


  9. #9
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by james1200 View Post
    i'm sure the original poster realizes that those gays who say they're libertarian vote repbulican anyway. saying they're libertarian is just an attempt to assuage their guilt over it.
    To use a technical term,

    BULLSHIT
    .

    I know several gay Libertarians, and they come from both Demibrat and Publican backgrounds, and vote for people from both parties -- or straight Libertarian... or even Constitution or Reform.
    I was founding chair of the Libertarian party in my county, and I haven't voted for a Republican in... I don't recall how many elections, but since Clinton's first term, at least -- except on a local level; none for any state or higher office. I'll only vote Republican (or Demibrat) if it's someone I know personally and would trust driving while I slept (oops -- no Kennedys!).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #10
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Having set the record straight....

    Start with the basic principle of civilization, "You own yourself".
    The politicians own themselves, just as the rest of us do. Thus it can only be okay to out a politician if it's okay to out anyone and everyone.
    But everyone and anyone own their own lives, so whether or not they want to be out is their own decision, so their being out is no one's business but theirs.
    Therefore it is not only not okay, but is immoral and uncivilized to out a politician (or anyone else).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  11. #11
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7 View Post
    ...again and again and again... and it doesn't matter how often you do because facts and logic and reason fail to work with certain posters here who prefer not to bother with such boring things as those.

    And another poll in which I can't participate.
    Let me pose another question to you ICO7.

    If, on your way to the polls, you decided to stop at Wendys for a quick burger. You ask for no cheese but the minimum wage worker slaps a thick slice on it anyway. Would you ....

    A. Vote Republican
    B. Vote Democratic
    C. Vote Libertarian
    D. Vote Other
    E. Go home instead of voting
    F. _______________________________ (fill in the blank)

  12. #12
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    My friends do not ask me to lie for them.

    I do not want anyone in office who feels the need to hide anything.

    That is an entirely different question from whether it is polite or necessary to ask.

    Don't lie to me. Don't lie to the public. Don't lie, period.

    -D

  13. #13
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by General_Alfie View Post
    "Founding chair," were you? Must be lonley -- there aren't enough Libertarians in America for a dinner of six.
    O Chief of Liars in this forum, do some research.
    You're always asking for cites, but as always, you put yourself above that requirement.
    The country I'm currently in, in Oregon, happens to have not just six, but over sixty times six, Libertarians -- and a LOT more who register that way without actually signing up or paying dues.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #14
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Also "outted" should be politicans who cheat on their spouses, have criminal records-- including traffic and tax records, etc. Make it a clean sweep of all personal situations.

  15. #15
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    My friends do not ask me to lie for them.

    I do not want anyone in office who feels the need to hide anything.

    That is an entirely different question from whether it is polite or necessary to ask.

    Don't lie to me. Don't lie to the public. Don't lie, period.

    -D
    Okay.....
    by this logic, do you also want them to tell us their favorite color, average daily alcohol intake, ethnic background (to seven generations), whether they suffer from diarrhea on a frequent basis, whether and where they have tan lines, if they suffer from impotence, maybe even which stores they shop at?
    Hiding something is NOT lying, it's called "having a private life".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #16
    ...and I'm not sorry JUB Friend Soilwork's Avatar
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Once you have entered politics, you have no privacy.

    If you're making laws that run people's lives, we have the right to know everything about you.

    I think we should out every single Republican staff member, politician and politician's son.

    (I also get a kick out of outing Republican private citizens to their families)
    Gentlemen.... Thank you.

  17. #17
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7 View Post
    Hiding via omission of fact is now considered lying?

    That is not what I said.

    In fact, that is the specific distinction I was making.

    It is one thing not to volunteer information. That is not hiding.

    Hiding is active obfuscation, camoflage or other means used to keep something from view.

    I do not want politicians who have things to hide.

    I speak very little of my own recent illness, but neither do I hide it.

    There is no room for secrets in politics any more.



  18. #18
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    My friends do not ask me to lie for them.

    I do not want anyone in office who feels the need to hide anything.

    That is an entirely different question from whether it is polite or necessary to ask.

    Don't lie to me. Don't lie to the public. Don't lie, period.

    -D
    Now, look at that again, and take me for what I actually said, not an additional statement which you infer I might make.

    Conflicting things can both be valid.

    In this case I try to make it clear that honesty is what matters to me most.

    And again, hiding is an action.

    I am saying that while you may not be obligated to reveal this fact or any other in your life, a politician absolutely must not lie if and when asked.

    -D

  19. #19
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7 View Post
    Of course the topic has to do with outing, not simply asking, which is perhaps why, knowing what the thread is about, your statement was thus taken in that light.
    If a politician is lying, and someone knows it, I want to know.

    Out the lying sonovabitch.

    Why can't people have the balls to say "mind your own business" if that's what they want to say? Why do they have to play straight?

    And more importantly, why do we put up with it?

  20. #20

    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    You all know damn well that if a person does not acknowledge that they are gay by living openly as a gay, that it is assumed they are st8. Therefore, they are being deceptive if they are not openly gay. They are certainly free to be deceptive if they wish, but the rest of us have the right, and perhaps, the responsibility to expose the deception.

    At a time when gays are being used as the whipping boys for unscrupulous politicians and religious leaders and our rights compromised, no one has a right to hide their sexuality. There are no acceptable excuses for pretending to be something you are not. No one "owns themselves" by living a lie and turning their back on other gays.

    Personally, at a time when civil liberties are under attack and people are dying in the Iraq mess and the country has a disastrous foreign policy, I don't think it is particulary responsible for you chicken nugget eating libertarians to avoid your responsibility by voting for some Disneyesque third party. If you lived in France during the Nazi occupation would you tell the Resistance that you were a Libertarian and could not take sides?

  21. #21
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadeUpName27 View Post
    In your opinion, is it acceptable to OUT closeted politicians?
    I voted I'm a Democrat ~Yes. But honestly, I think it's only really appropriate to "out" someone when their being "in" is hurting the rest of us.

    Some closest self-hating homophobe, voting for or introducing legislation that hurts all of us? Out the bastard!
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

  22. #22

    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    ^Trying to find even a semblance of an argument in all that BS is like trying to find a libertarian on the front lines.

    Maybe when the Republicans stop meddling in my life, I'll think twice about meddling in theirs. Heterosexuality is certainly not a private matter, for God's sake, they flaunt it and so should we. Sexual preference must inevitably be a public matter, it is too basic, too important, and just not practical for it to be private. It would be like wearing a gay burkha. (Wear that to Wendys)

    When faced with an administration as atrocious as this one, particularly when that administration is denying you your rights, it is not a false dichotomy to expect one to make a choice to oppose that admin or not. To do anything else except oppose it is to support it. The real choice is to do nothing or do something and voting Libertarian is to do nothing, in fact, it helps the administration.

    The idea that voting Democratic makes one responsible for those things the Dems do is somewhat valid, but it is equally true that voting for a third party makes you complicit in whatever party wins because you have thrown away your vote. It is really a silly argument anyway because the objective should be to get rid of this Republican domination, not endorse some platform that the Dems don't have anyway.

    In the end Libertarianism, like being in the closet, is an excuse, an avoidance of taking responsibility for getting rid of this Republican regime. How much courage does it take to choose between those two big levers?

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    Daddy: I was a libertarian and had to hide under the bed until it was over and survive on chicken nuggets.
    Kid: They weren't chicken nuggets Daddy, they were your balls.

  23. #23
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    politicians don't hide their heterosexuality so they shouldn't hide the homosexuality.
    and it hurts with every heartbeat......



  24. #24
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    No one should be 'outed' against their will. Doesn't matter their occupation, whether they are married.... it is a totally private decision.

  25. #25
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    I believe in voting for the man or woman best qualified for the job. I could care less about their sexuality.
    How naughty can I be and still go to heaven?

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  26. #26
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    You all know damn well that if a person does not acknowledge that they are gay by living openly as a gay, that it is assumed they are st8. Therefore, they are being deceptive if they are not openly gay. They are certainly free to be deceptive if they wish, but the rest of us have the right, and perhaps, the responsibility to expose the deception.
    You know just as well that at any major university that if a person does not advertise he is committed to chastity until marriage, that it is assumed he is promiscuous.
    You know that if a person does not openly advertise he is a Christian he is assumed to be a secular humanist.
    You know that if a guy doesn't loudly and firmly declare he doesn't drink it's assumed he guzzles every weekend before sobering up again for classes.

    Dude, people make lots of assumptions. EVERYONE is being deceptive, by your logic, unless they walk around with a full description of themselves, down to whether they wear underwear, strapped to their backs.
    And we have NO right to dictate how another person is to live his life, in any way at all, unless he is inflicting harm on another person. The kind of thinking you espouse is the same thing that drives people like Phelps, Falwell, and their ilk.

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    At a time when gays are being used as the whipping boys for unscrupulous politicians and religious leaders and our rights compromised, no one has a right to hide their sexuality. There are no acceptable excuses for pretending to be something you are not. No one "owns themselves" by living a lie and turning their back on other gays.
    "You own yourself" is absolute, and is not subject to anyone else's definition. The moment we allow ownership of one person by another in any fashion, we are supporters of tyranny. You want to own politicians who prefer to have their private lives, well... private. You want to own every gay who hasn't come out yet.
    Who made you our general, or our fuhrer? Rights are rights; they do not change at the whim of anyone. If on this issue it's okay for you to nullify the right to stay in the closet, by what logic can you say it's not okay for others to deny you some right because of some reason they have -- like, for a president to deny, say, civil benefits to some people because of, oh, their sexual orientation? If YOU can feel justified decreeing what rights others may exercise, then Bush is perfectly justified in wanting to ban same-sex marriage, Rumsfeld is perfectly justified in wanting to give gays dishonorable discharges, and so on. Ultimately, if it's okay for any one individual to decree that someone else's rights don't count because of some prevailing situation, then what was done to Matthew Shepard was just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    Personally, at a time when civil liberties are under attack and people are dying in the Iraq mess and the country has a disastrous foreign policy, I don't think it is particulary responsible for you chicken nugget eating libertarians to avoid your responsibility by voting for some Disneyesque third party. If you lived in France during the Nazi occupation would you tell the Resistance that you were a Libertarian and could not take sides?
    But that's not the situation. If you want a parallel, we live in Poland, and every few years we can't tell whether the Germans or the Russians are going to oppress us, but we know it will be one of them.
    You're telling me I have to vote for the German oppressors, or the Russian oppressors -- I'm saying, "No! I'm a POLE, and I'll vote for a Pole, until the oppressors are gone! And if they're never gone, I will at least have lived as a POLE, not as a collaborator!"

    Of course you think it's my responsibility to vote Democrat -- but there are gays out there who will insist it's my responsibility to vote Republican. Both assume that since THEIR way is the RIGHT way, anyone not toeing their line has some sort of responsibility to line up and do so!
    I've spent far too much time in my life bashing up against oppression and tyranny from both Republicans and Democrats to ever vote for either.

    To me it's the Republicans and Democrats who are cowardly brainwashed wimps too cowed by prophecies of doom to look around and see that they're perpetuating it all, and to stand up and say "No more!" to the philosophy that says, "We own you." It's those who have awakened from the hypnotic trance who have become Libertarians (what all Americans once were) and Constitutionalists (what most Americans became) and Reform (what most Americans were a few generations back). It's those few who form alternative parties who are the Poles insisting on not being Russian collaborators OR German collaborators -- rather, who are the Americans who refuse to cooperate further with destroying the true American Dream.

    You, and the Republicans, assume that you are right and they are wrong. Along with others, I'm telling you that you are BOTH wrong. When you say, "We need a change!", you mean ditch the Republicans and put your guys in. I agree that America needs a change, but when I say it, I mean that both of those options are like dirty diapers, and when a diaper is dirty, you change it -- to a clean one, not another dirty one.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  27. #27
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Visit
    OK to OUT - Part II

    A NEW POLL!!!
    Featuring 3rd Party Choices!!!



    Happy now???

    I type with two fingers and I'm getting Carpal Tunnel!!!
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    ~ ~ ~ Simon Wiesenthal ~ ~ ~

  28. #28

    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    I think, from my experience I am much happier out of the closet and able to lead an open life, without having to hide things from my familly and friends, so if I liked the politician I would out him, and hope he can lead a happy and open life from then on, without having to hide his feeling everyday. If I didn't like the politician, then fuck it, leave him to suffer in the closet! His mistake.

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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    I dont remember who said it but they said voting Libertarian helped this administration. I voted in 04 for Badnarik, the Libertarian canidate, and i saw that as not helping the administration because I know a lot of other Libertarians that under different circumstances would've voted conservative so by us voting for Badnarik, we weren't voting for Bush and his admin. So how am I helping his admin by not voting for him? Im not trying to be confrontational either cause I see this is a hot issue I was just wondering if you could expand on the idea of voting Libertarian as helping Bush.

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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smitho View Post
    I think, from my experience I am much happier out of the closet and able to lead an open life, without having to hide things from my familly and friends, so if I liked the politician I would out him, and hope he can lead a happy and open life from then on, without having to hide his feeling everyday. If I didn't like the politician, then fuck it, leave him to suffer in the closet! His mistake.
    If you like a guy, shouldn't you leave the decision to him? I think that's more respectful, and shows you like him.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  31. #31

    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7 View Post
    As I said, I don't go to Wendy's often---it's too plebian, too beneath me.
    Oh Dear! How does a patrician develop a taste for chicken nuggets? Got any other declasse tastes you like to share?

  32. #32
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    When did we start talking about Wendy's?????

    I don't go often myself; I can't afford fast food -- the cost of one meal at Wendy's is my daily food budget.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  33. #33

    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    What do we call a gay Stepin Fetchit? Maybe a "Two Steping Stepin Fetchit" or a "Limp Wristed Rochester" or a "Lisping Libertarian", maybe a "Queer Quisling"? Nothing seems adequate.

    You Cocksucking Collaborationists need to know that nobody is interested in what (if anything) you do in your bedrooms. It is no ones business if your a top or a bottom or something in between (?). Being gay is not about what you do with your little penis, it is who you are, it is a basic part of your identity.

    Being gay is such a basic part of our personality that it cannot be hidden without taking steps to do so. Being gay is not something one can be neutral about, one has to work at hiding it during normal social intercourse. You have chosen to hide being gay if "nobody knows" or you believe it "is nobody's business".

    The current administration has made your being gay their business. The administration has demonized your gayness to get the votes of the folks that live in perpetual fear of anything new. Everyone that is gay has a responsibility to oppose this administration if they have even a shred of self respect and self interest.

    If you have been successful in hiding your gayness you should not have a problem closing the curtain and actually voting in way that sends a message to your enemies. I'll never tell.

  34. #34
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    Being gay is not about what you do with your little penis, it is who you are, it is a basic part of your identity.

    Being gay is such a basic part of our personality that it cannot be hidden without taking steps to do so. Being gay is not something one can be neutral about, one has to work at hiding it during normal social intercourse. You have chosen to hide being gay if "nobody knows" or you believe it "is nobody's business".
    Bullshit.
    Just as with anything else, there is a broad range in "gayness".
    In my mere fourteen months since coming out, I've already met several men who have had to work hard for people to believe they are gay. I've met lots who no one would even think they're gay without the rainbow bumper stickers and such.
    There is no way to tell, as someone walks down the street, if he's gay or not -- to think otherwise is stereotyping.
    And it IS nobody's business, because (get this through your head) no one owns him but him. There is no obligation to any "gay community", which is as likely to treat him as "fresh meat", use him, and throw him away as they are to welcome him -- no, MORE likely, because for far too many gays, as long as their penis is pleased, politics is passe.
    Sorry, but most of the gays I've met have to take steps so their gayness can be seen -- not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    The current administration has made your being gay their business. The administration has demonized your gayness to get the votes of the folks that live in perpetual fear of anything new. Everyone that is gay has a responsibility to oppose this administration if they have even a shred of self respect and self interest.
    They can "make it" their business all they want -- but your response is to want to make it everybody's business. You want to impose a mythical "responsibility" from the realms of some authoritarian fantasy on people who have no such thing! A person's ONLY responsibility is to his/her self-sovereignty and the corollary respect for that of others. YOU have none, apparently -- which, at root.... well, read on.

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    If you have been successful in hiding your gayness you should not have a problem closing the curtain and actually voting in way that sends a message to your enemies. I'll never tell.
    I do vote in a way that sends a message to my enemies -- the Democrats and Republicans. The Democrats have been enemies of my basic liberties far longer than the Republicans have been enemies of one aspect of my being. I vote Libertarian, because while Republicans are my enemies, so are Democrats: they are both hypocritical, authoritarian, anti-liberty, anti-human-dignity power structures who think, as you clearly do, that they own us.

    I own me -- no one else. I'll vote with the curtain open and let everyone know I'm voting against ALL my enemies, those of brand R and of brand D.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  35. #35
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Bullshit.

    They can "make it" their business all they want -- but your response is to want to make it everybody's business. You want to impose a mythical "responsibility" from the realms of some authoritarian fantasy on people who have no such thing! A person's ONLY responsibility is to his/her self-sovereignty and the corollary respect for that of others. YOU have none, apparently -- which, at root.... well, read on.
    When a man stands up in front of me, asking me for my vote, claiming honesty and integrity, then it is very much my business to test those claims.

    I have not made it "everybody's business", he has, and not because of his party's anti-gay platform, but because he stood up and claimed to be honest.
    -D



  36. #36

    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Where does this nasty little phrase "You own yourself" come from? Can one rent oneself out or sell oneself? No, you can sell your time or talent or even rent your body out, but not your self. You can be chained to a wall, but your self is still free to think or dream or whatever. How can yourself own itself? That's like a tree "owning" it self. The tree just is and you just are. Trying to impose a 19th century economic view on yourself (you as your own property, as if you owned an old obstinate mule) is simply an avoidance of the fact that you are free to make your own choices.

    To choose to be a libertarian is an attempt to avoid the inevitable feedback and judgement of others. It is safe, you do not have to take any responsibility for the society you live in, you can deflect all criticism by saying that you have opted out of the system. It is a defensive position, you have sacrificed your freedom to choose, for a political closet. You have no responsibilities because you have chosen to avoid them.

    The next time your at Wendys, just take whatever they give you, tell them you have abdicated your right to choose between cheese or no cheese. Or, maybe a libertarian should just order something not on the menu.

  37. #37

    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    ^The point is that libertarianism is a bogus philosophy and politically unworkable. Who wants to live in a country with no social safety net, affordable unregulated drugs, unaffordable medicine, few basic safety considerations, and a population armed to the teeth?

    Therefore, one is voting for nothing and allowing the party in power do as it wishes.

  38. #38

    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    ^There is no such thing as "self ownership" there is no "natural law" that governs humans and Ayn Rand should have been buried in a lead coffin with a stake through her heart.

    No, she should have been chopped up, battered and served as chicken nuggets to self deceiving Wendys customers.

  39. #39
    -live-
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    i think it should only be up to the person who is gay. if someone outed me without my will id be devastated! being gay shouldnt be so much of an issue! it doesnt stop the person doing there job well! so why should they have to make it clear to everyone there gay and face homophobic people!

  40. #40

    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by sebbles View Post
    i think it should only be up to the person who is gay. if someone outed me without my will id be devastated! being gay shouldnt be so much of an issue! it doesnt stop the person doing there job well! so why should they have to make it clear to everyone there gay and face homophobic people!
    Well, maybe because homophobic people are your enemies? Maybe because you should not allow homophobic people to intimidate you? Because there is nothing wrong with you, there is something wrong with them.

  41. #41

    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7 View Post
    Not a fan of John Locke, the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason either, huh? You can irrationally hate all you want; I expect as much from those that purposely know little of history and knowledge, but the stereotype usually applies to right-wing Republicans... guess that's why one shouldn't go by generalizations alone. There are a couple of posters that come to mind that should learn from this example.
    I didn't know there was a Locke Fan Club, at least not in the past two centuries. I'm sure they have no "original ideas". I see from the rest of your post that you, like Locke, assume a great deal, or is that just a defensive reaction?

    There is nothing irrational about hate, one chooses to hate, and there are things worth hating (I mean besides cheese on your burger).

  42. #42
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    When a man stands up in front of me, asking me for my vote, claiming honesty and integrity, then it is very much my business to test those claims.

    I have not made it "everybody's business", he has, and not because of his party's anti-gay platform, but because he stood up and claimed to be honest.
    -D


    You're not talking about testing claims, you're talking about violating someone's privacy and integrity. The ONLY logical basis for such a move is the notion that you have ownership over that person.
    Who made you the slave-master, the Fuhrer?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  43. #43
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    Re: OK to OUT Politicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    Where does this nasty little phrase "You own yourself" come from? Can one rent oneself out or sell oneself? No, you can sell your time or talent or even rent your body out, but not your self. You can be chained to a wall, but your self is still free to think or dream or whatever. How can yourself own itself? That's like a tree "owning" it self. The tree just is and you just are. Trying to impose a 19th century economic view on yourself (you as your own property, as if you owned an old obstinate mule) is simply an avoidance of the fact that you are free to make your own choices.
    If you don't own yourself, you don't have to make choices -- someone else will do it for you. Self-ownership is the logical basis for freedom of choice, responsibility, individual dignity -- all those things the Democrats don't believe in.
    The other choice is that someone else owns you. The U.S. of A. had a bit of a war over that issue, you know -- apparently your way of thinking comes from before, because you, as a Democrat, believe someone besides you own you, someone besides me owns me.
    "Self ownership" is another way of saying "personal sovereignty", which is another way of saying "I'm in charge of myself", which is another way of saying "I'm responsible for myself" -- and that's a good place to stop, because it leads right into the reason that the Democrats are the enemy: the Democrat party does not believe a person is responsible for himself, or capable of being so; he is the product of his environment, so things aren't his fault, and he can't take care of himself, so we need tons of regulations.
    What you're advocating is an abandonment of choice to a source of authority outside one's self. I call that tyranny, a fellow libertarian calls it authoritarian, but either way, it's part and parcel of "Democrat" as well as of "Republican" in this suffering country.

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    To choose to be a libertarian is an attempt to avoid the inevitable feedback and judgement of others. It is safe, you do not have to take any responsibility for the society you live in, you can deflect all criticism by saying that you have opted out of the system. It is a defensive position, you have sacrificed your freedom to choose, for a political closet. You have no responsibilities because you have chosen to avoid them.
    Being a libertarian is hard work, O ignorant one. You have to be ready to give a reasonable answer to members of both major parties who come to harrass you into abandoning your principles and joining their patchwork quilt of compromises and deceptions. And only an imperiatlist would make the accusation "you have opted out of the system. To remind you of reality:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr
    Quote Originally Posted by iman
    Personally, at a time when civil liberties are under attack and people are dying in the Iraq mess and the country has a disastrous foreign policy, I don't think it is particulary responsible for you chicken nugget eating libertarians to avoid your responsibility by voting for some Disneyesque third party. If you lived in France during the Nazi occupation would you tell the Resistance that you were a Libertarian and could not take sides?
    But that's not the situation. If you want a parallel, we live in Poland, and every few years we can't tell whether the Germans or the Russians are going to oppress us, but we know it will be one of them.
    You're telling me I have to vote for the German oppressors, or the Russian oppressors -- I'm saying, "No! I'm a POLE, and I'll vote for a Pole, until the oppressors are gone! And if they're never gone, I will at least have lived as a POLE, not as a collaborator!"

    Of course you think it's my responsibility to vote Democrat -- but there are gays out there who will insist it's my responsibility to vote Republican. Both assume that since THEIR way is the RIGHT way, anyone not toeing their line has some sort of responsibility to line up and do so!
    I've spent far too much time in my life bashing up against oppression and tyranny from both Republicans and Democrats to ever vote for either.

    To me it's the Republicans and Democrats who are cowardly brainwashed wimps too cowed by prophecies of doom to look around and see that they're perpetuating it all, and to stand up and say "No more!" to the philosophy that says, "We own you." It's those who have awakened from the hypnotic trance who have become Libertarians (what all Americans once were) and Constitutionalists (what most Americans became) and Reform (what most Americans were a few generations back). It's those few who form alternative parties who are the Poles insisting on not being Russian collaborators OR German collaborators -- rather, who are the Americans who refuse to cooperate further with destroying the true American Dream.

    You, and the Republicans, assume that you are right and they are wrong. Along with others, I'm telling you that you are BOTH wrong. When you say, "We need a change!", you mean ditch the Republicans and put your guys in. I agree that America needs a change, but when I say it, I mean that both of those options are like dirty diapers, and when a diaper is dirty, you change it -- to a clean one, not another dirty one.
    I'm not in the market for dirty diapers, and I'm not in the market for kneeling down to some inconsistent authoritarian ideology that says it owns me, or at least a piece of me -- it can't have a piece of me (I got none to spare, thank you).

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    The next time your at Wendys, just take whatever they give you, tell them you have abdicated your right to choose between cheese or no cheese. Or, maybe a libertarian should just order something not on the menu.
    That last remark almost comes close to the truth:
    what libertarians are ordering is common sense and freedom -- but it isn't on YOUR menu.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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