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View Poll Results: What do you think would best protect America, were it to happen tomorrow?

Voters
35. You may not vote on this poll
  • Bin Laden & Al-Zawahiri apprehended and telling everything they know in Guantanomo.

    11 31.43%
  • Bush & Cheney resigned and subsequently replaced.

    24 68.57%
Results 1 to 26 of 26
  1. #1

    What's your priority?

    Some amongst the right have implied that Democrats are more interested in protecting 'the terrorists' than protecting America. While I'm more conservative than many on this board (does that count as understatement? ), I don't think that this is a fair comment at all. I think that most of us here are pretty passionate about making the country a better place, but we differ pretty deeply about what might best protect us...

    So I'm curious, which do you think would best improve the world we live in?

  2. #2

    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7 View Post
    Both options would be best. For the world, al Qaeda should be dismantled. For America, we need competent leadership.
    Trust the libertarian to be unable to make a decision and throw away his vote.

  3. #3

    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by General_Alfie View Post
    Implied? To imply is to "express or indicate indirectly." The GOP has spent the past five years essentially calling Democrats traitors and terrorist lovers.
    In the case of some Republicans, you're certainly right, and you're correct that the thread originates from a direct quote that I've thought about off and on over the last several weeks since it was said. Of course, I think some of Democrats interpret any criticism of their actions as an effort to label them unpatriotic, but breathless handwringing abound on both sides of the aisle in Washington.



    Quote Originally Posted by General_Alfie View Post
    Neither. I think what's needed is an objective look at the threats and a comprehesive plan to counter/neutralize/mitigate same.
    Are you saying that it wouldn't be a good thing to have Bin Laden and Al Zawaihiri, or simply saying that that might not be your #1 priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by General_Alfie View Post
    This threat assessment and planning cannot be done by a Republican because they simply cannot divorce their desire to use the real threat of terrorism from their profound lust to stay in power -- or, put another way, they simply cannot be trusted to do what's needed for America because they love their power more than they love their country.
    Here we arrive at the conundrum. You think that the GOP cannot deal with security because they love power more than they care about protection. I think exactly the same thing about Democrats, who I think would rather have power back than protect their fellow Americans.

    What frightens me most is the very real possibility that we're both right.

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    Re: What's your priority?

    I think the choices are equally implausible. Bin Laden & Al-Zawahiri are not likely to resign, nor will Bush & Cheney ever be compelled to tell everything they know.

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    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by maltese View Post
    Here we arrive at the conundrum. You think that the GOP cannot deal with security because they love power more than they care about protection. I think exactly the same thing about Democrats, who I think would rather have power back than protect their fellow Americans.

    What frightens me most is the very real possibility that we're both right.
    You say that, it it is the truth. So how can you also say:

    Quote Originally Posted by maltese
    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7
    Both options would be best. For the world, al Qaeda should be dismantled. For America, we need competent leadership.
    Trust the libertarian to be unable to make a decision and throw away his vote.
    Seems to me that your fear is that voting either Democrat or Republican is throwing away your vote!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  6. #6
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    Re: What's your priority?

    I understand that this thread is about what the Republicans are labeling the Democrats but the pole question is should Bush and Cheney be replaced.

    Lets review:

    Bush-Cheney tell us that there are weapons of mass destruction and that Al Qaeda are in Iraq. BBC and PBS at different times have run documentaries let alone the numerous books that have been published outlining Cheney's meddling in the information gathering process by pushing a decision to invade Iraq. We get to Iraq under these pretexts and find that all of the above are lies. We now find we are losing the war, don't have enough troops and have never have had a coherent plan of action. Due to the way we went about invading a sovran country for the first time in our history we alienated the rest of the world and gave ourselves the largest national debt in history. We now have an Iraq on the verge of becoming exactly what we went there to prevent. Iran is funding the opposition and developing weapons of mass destruction. We made Iraq the magnet for all existing Al Qaeda and gave the world a reason to join Al Qaeda.

    The above is the product of Bush Cheney. What am I missing? Why would anyone want to keep them in office? It's clearly not going to get better. Why wouldn't we try something else? Even another Republican.

    If a Democrat had made this mess they would have been impeached and put in jail. For some reason the lemmings of this country just think Bush Cheney are the only ones that can do the job. Its very clear they have only botched it up.

    I am baffled, please tell me why you want to keep them in office.

  7. #7
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    Re: What's your priority?

    Interesting...

    What do you think would best protect America, were it to happen tomorrow?
    So I'm curious, which do you think would best improve the world we live in?
    For openers, this thread is based on the rather arrogant assumption that "What is best for America" is also "What is best for the world."

    Be that as it may.

    Yes, it would be wonderful to see Osama Bin-Laden in Gitmo, on a HOT sunny day, neck deep in a vat of pig shit, with his tiny, diseased balls chopped off and hanging from his ears.
    May that day come soon...


    However, in the long-term, that would turn out to be an empty victory unless the US is able to make some MAJOR changes in the way we are conducting the Global War On Terror and the Occupation of Iraq, as well as our overall foreign policy in the Middle East.

    Since George Bush and Dick Cheney have made it perfectly clear that they will NEVER admit that there are flaws in their current policies, and therefore NEVER make the necessary changes to those policies -
    I vote to remove them from office and replace them with competent leadership.
    "For your benefit, learn from our tragedy. It is not a written law that the next victims must be Jews."
    ~ ~ ~ Simon Wiesenthal ~ ~ ~

  8. #8

    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7 View Post
    Trust the partisan to offer a false dichotomy; libertarians believe we can have our cake and eat it too, without requiring government cream cheese frosting or attempting to legislate how I can't have trans-fat shortening ingredients or a 'sin' tax.
    I appreciate the fact that in reality neither choice will pop up with the big 'easy' button, with the caveat that you can only pick one. I do think, however, that our political leaders are crafting policies to head towards particular ends, and that they are more interested in more than one of these than the other. Now, if my friend Alfie put one up about 'hanging on to power' vs. 'protecting Americans', and wondered the same question about the GOP, it's probably also a fair one - on immigration, for instance, I think that the GOP has chosen another priority than I think that they should have. I'm not sure that either is a false dichotomy in the sense of a priority and what a given politician is working towards.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadeUpName27 View Post
    For openers, this thread is based on the rather arrogant assumption that "What is best for America" is also "What is best for the world."

    Be that as it may.
    No more arrogant, than, say...assuming that those were even intended to be the same question.

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    Re: What's your priority?

    1. Bin Laden & Al-Zawahiri apprehended and telling everything they know in Guantanomo.

    2. Bush & Cheney resigned and subsequently replaced.

    The first event might cause the second event to occur ...... if the word 'resigned' where replaced by 'impeached'.

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    Re: What's your priority?

    Taking out the top 2 in Al Qaeda will do nothing. Its considered by many experts that there are so many small groups operating of their own accord that Al Qaeda dont really exist as this "unit" the American govt think they do. Kill OBL and there'll be others willing to do his work.

  11. #11
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    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by maltese View Post
    Here we arrive at the conundrum. You think that the GOP cannot deal with security because they love power more than they care about protection. I think exactly the same thing about Democrats, who I think would rather have power back than protect their fellow Americans.

    What frightens me most is the very real possibility that we're both right.
    There is also a very real possibility that you are both quite wrong.

    Both sides want to protect America, they have very fundamental disagreements about how best to do so.

    For both sides, to protect America is to protect themselves and everything they hold dear.

    I will impugn the President's intelligence, denigrate his education and abhor his policies, but it is patently absurd to suggest that he does not care about keeping us safe.

    He and his are flatly wrong about almost everything they believe, and everything they do. They are making the world a much more dangerous place, making things far worse instead of better. I have absolutely no doubt that they are doing what they think is right.

    Do they hope some of their friends will get richer in the process? Certainly.

    Are they working out personal psychological problems in the most embarrassingly public way? Plainly.

    But when we impugn their motives we are no better, and no more correct, than they are when they impugn ours.

    -D





  12. #12
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    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by T24bone View Post

    Its part of the conversation the country is having now...( and should be having ) about weather this is fight is better fought on offense as Bush advocates, or on defense as the left seems to believe.
    Putting words in people's mouths.

    The question is not whether there should be offensive action, it is what form that offense should take.

    As it is, we lashed out like a drunken husband whose wife has been insulted.

    And we left the home ground woefully undefended while we did it.

    We need both defense and offense, but they must both be effective, and military action is of limited use in such an effort.

    You defeat terrorists by undermining and co-opting them.

    Read your history.

    And don't put words in the mouths of Democrat leaders which they have never used

    -D




  13. #13

    Re: What's your priority?

    Gee, some things never change. The "libertarians" remain sensitive about being in the political closet and the conservatives are still fond of the false premise.

    Capturing Bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri is certainly not commensurate to protecting the country from terrorists. As I recall even members of the administration have played down the effectiveness of these two in the terrorist movement. Your choice could have been; Get rid of Bush-Cheney or Fight the Terrorists, but you posed a choice that would get the result you wanted.

    Since capturing Bin Laden et al at this late date would mean little in the fight against terrorism and Bush-Cheney have killed more people and done far more damage to America than any terrorist could ever dream of, I vote to get rid of Bush-Cheney.

  14. #14

    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7 View Post
    What's this? You're a mere few posts away from your big one thousandth post! I can't help but wonder to whom will it be addressed! *hopes its me - hopes its me - knows it'll be Alfie*
    For you, my dear Darth Vexatious-Contrarianus, anything.


    (Seriously, thanks to all who read and write here for putting up with me, and for the enjoyment of a bit of intellectual (or not ) sparring.)

  15. #15

    Re: What's your priority?

    Maltese - didn't you post a thread entitled: "In Defense of a Little Hypocrisy"? This might be an interesting time to revive that one.

  16. #16

    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    Maltese - didn't you post a thread entitled: "In Defense of a Little Hypocrisy"? This might be an interesting time to revive that one.
    I was actually looking for that this evening to give it a bump. You're right - I think it's an interesting time to continue that discussion.

    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97953

  17. #17
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    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    Gee, some things never change. The "libertarians" remain sensitive about being in the political closet and the conservatives are still fond of the false premise.
    If that means what I think it means, it seems to me that you members of the two branches of the "Re-Elect Us" Party are the ones who are sensitive -- about having reality pointed out to you, that BOTH are interested more in their own power than in America, and NEITHER can field a candidate who can be voted for in good cnscience. Both are also find of false premises, happy to ignore facts they don't like and twist others to make a case for what they want to do anyway.

    Voting is like investing: it gives ownership and responsibility. If I had voted for Bush, I would share responsibility for the stupidity and barbarisms he has unleashed or sponsored. No matter how right he is on some things, he is blind and deep in error on others.
    I will never again vote for a candidate I cannot endorse with my heart, not just for expediency. I will not settle for the easy way, and choose evil.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #18
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    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by General_Alfie View Post


    There's always the Libertarian Party, which, I believe, is seated at tables 8 and 9.

    Their waiter is the one who drew the short straw because Libertarians don't tip worth shit .......

  19. #19

    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Voting is like investing: it gives ownership and responsibility. If I had voted for Bush, I would share responsibility for the stupidity and barbarisms he has unleashed or sponsored. No matter how right he is on some things, he is blind and deep in error on others.
    I will never again vote for a candidate I cannot endorse with my heart, not just for expediency. I will not settle for the easy way, and choose evil.
    You waiting for Godot, sweetheart. This idea that you have to be personally invested in a candidate is basically anti-democratic. No candidate represents just you, even if you were the candidate you do not represent only yourself, you have a constituency.

    You can represent yourself by choosing a candidate and urging him to support your ideas, but you can't represent yourself by opting out. You have to take responsibility for yourself not the person you vote for.

    By waiting for your ubermensche, who never shows up, you are just avoiding taking any responsibility. If you want to live in a democracy, you are not always going to get your own way.

    Enjoy the Salad Bar.

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    Re: What's your priority?

    I voted for Bush and Cheney to resign but then I realized that if that really happened Dennis Hastert would become President

  21. #21

    Re: What's your priority?

    To opt out of the system with any intellectual honesty one would have to come to the conclusion that neither party has or will do anything one agrees with or is good for the country. A communist or a fascist might honestly come to such a conclusion, but most folks cannot. A review of what the two parties have done over the past 20, 30, or 40 years would produce for most people a general direction that they could agree or disagree with.

  22. #22
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    Re: What's your priority?

    A review of what the major parties have done over the last twenty or thirty years tells me that both parties want an empire which is a police state and aren't interested in allowing anyone who disagrees with them to be heard. Neither party is interested in liberty, nor very much in human dignity or justice.

    So if I vote for a candidate from either party, I am voting for:

    empire
    a police state
    suppression of dissent
    continued restrictions of rights
    justice for the rich and influential, and crap for the rest of us

    All of that is a good reason to vote Libertarian -- or Constitution, or something else.
    Historically, major parties have died, to be replaced with something new and fresh. Then came the fingers of the FedGov in the election process, and the annointing of the Demigods and Publicans as the accepted parties in our "two-party system" (a lie), and they have worked together to do their level best to keep anyone else out.
    Surveys around the country by various groups have shown that over 40% of voters rate more as libertarians than as "left" or "right" (a false dichotomy!). Without the interference of the established parties and the collusion of the media, one or the other of the major parties would have died a generation ago and been replaced by another -- or, with luck, both would have faded and a major re-alignment of the spectrum occurred.

    Since I believe in liberty, and the two existing branches of the "Re-Elect Us!" party don't, reason says to find someone who does. That comes down to the Constitution Party, and the Libertarian Party.

    Furthermore, there is NO core philosophy in either the Diddlycrats or the Repugnantcans; they assemble shopping lists of what they think will please their voters and attract enough others to give them victories, and call this a "platform". If a contractor built a house that way, it would make Eeyore's look like a mansion. The Libertarian Party has one basic principle, and everything comes from it; the Constitution Party is similar in that. Since I believe in clear thinking, I again rationally choose the Libertarians or the Constitutionalists.
    They also tend to select candidates I can support with my heart.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  23. #23

    Re: What's your priority?

    ICO7 - According to the last two elections, George Bush was the best man to lead the country. Numbers don't really mean anything is good or correct. The growing number of independents, in my opinion, is part of the general dumbing down of the country and the news media.

    Kulindahr - Your argument is with democracy not the two parties.

  24. #24
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    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    ICO7 - According to the last two elections, George Bush was the best man to lead the country. Numbers don't really mean anything is good or correct. The growing number of independents, in my opinion, is part of the general dumbing down of the country and the news media.

    Kulindahr - Your argument is with democracy not the two parties.
    No, my argument is FOR democracy, and with the two parties.
    And the gradual increase in the number of independents and alternative party adherents is an indication of a healthy democracy that is seeing the bankruptcy of the two major power-grabbing establishments.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #25
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    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7 View Post
    Being partisan, it doesn't surprise me that your opinion would have such a bias. The numbers are showing that neither party is doing a suitable job to a growing number of Americans and isn't that the game that partisans play---it's all about statistics, right? So dismiss a growing portion of the American population out of hand all you want; it's fitting.
    Quite so.
    I would love to see all those uncast votes counted as what they are: None Of The Above!
    Polls of people who don't vote turn up two quite common reasons for not voting: "I don't think my vote will make a difference", and "None of them are worth voting for."
    The first shows either ignorance or a gut-level assessment of an economic reality.
    The second shows intelligence, and disgust.
    Both show, IMHO, a regrettable lack of dedication. These people ought at least go vote for someone, maybe even anyone, who isn't from one of the major parties. That might get a message across; silence won't.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: What's your priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    … people ought at least go vote for someone, maybe even anyone, who isn't from one of the major parties. That might get a message across; silence won't.

    Having used the new “electronic” voting machines through a number of recent election cycles, I am happy to report that this new technology fully supports the option to select write-in candidates.

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