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Thread: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

      
   
  1. #51
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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Oh come now, now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.


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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    Andreus, you have only to look at the Naughty Section of the forum. Whats the biggest of them all?

    "Young Men, Twinks, Jocks & Hunks" stands at 47,000+ posts

    "Daddies, Bears, Chubs, Chasers" stands at 8,300+ posts.

    With the exception of the Requests Forum, the "Young Men, Twinks..." forum outnumbers all the other porn forums combined. A majority of the advertisements that display on this website is "8teenboy.com" "boyfun" "cum swapping twinks" etc.

    So yes, it is accurate for me to say a majority of this community has an ephebophile sexual preference.
    no i don't think it is accurate at all. that group includes Jocks and hunks which by no means has to be guys that look like they're 18. young men wouldn't have to be either. i would agree that twinks certainly count. unless i see the numbers separated out then its still an opinion and not necessarily an accurate statement at that.

    Additionally, those are thread counts and posts. If someone could post an accurate count of the number of different people posting in twink threads in a day vs the other forums then you could tease out an answer. Based on the information we have and the conglomerate of items in that forum it is still not accurate for you to say the majority of the site have a ephedophile sexual preference. you dont really know, you are guessing. i don't known either for that matter.

    as for the crime...maybe i'm wrong. But the CRIME is some type of inappropriate sexual ....interaction with a minor. Now maybe a crime hasn't yet been identified and if none ever is then i will stand corrected. But for me this is not an issue primarily about abuse of power. it's an adult interacting inappropriately with minors. now...it might turn out he never did anything with minors. in which case we just have a lot of smoke in the wind.

  3. #53
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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    Pedophilia - is the paraphilia of being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to prepubescent children. Persons with this attraction are called pedophiles.

    Ephebophilia has been defined as a sexual preference in which an adult is primarily or exclusively sexually attracted to postpubescent adolescents.

    Ever since Foley's scandal has broken out everyone, including news, people, and forumers have been calling him a pedophile. Foley is not a pedophile. He would have had to solicite sexual favors to a 12-13 year-old or below.

    This does not detract from the wrongs he did, but for Pete's sake its driving me nuts!

    Ephebophilia has historically and presently is a wide-range sexual preference that encompasses a majority of the world's population. Yes, what Foley has done is no different than the "barely 18" porn links every forumer here has looked at. In the middle-ages, European men married 13-14 year-old girls and had children with them. Ancient Greece had a social system of "mentoring" between older men and teenage boys. This has been going on for as long as human existence.

    This is a crime of age-of-consent and an abuse of power. This is not about pedophilia. Foley is just as much as a pervert as anyone else here who's oogled over Brent Corrigan and Sammy.
    WHO CARES!

    Pedophilia in most people's usage of the word is an attraction to UNDER-AGED CHILDREN. Some teens are UNDER-AGED.

    Whether he's attracted to a 6 year old of 15 year old means jack shit. He's still attracted to a CHILD.

    This is just sad, I have to admit. And it gives credence to people like Dr. Laura who says the gay community is passive and favors pedophilia.

    Don't be a pedophile apologist...
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  4. #54
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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    WHO CARES!

    Pedophilia in most people's usage of the word is an attraction to UNDER-AGED CHILDREN. Some teens are UNDER-AGED.

    Whether he's attracted to a 6 year old of 15 year old means jack shit. He's still attracted to a CHILD.

    This is just sad, I have to admit. And it gives credence to people like Dr. Laura who says the gay community is passive and favors pedophilia.

    Don't be a pedophile apologist...
    You haven't read anything I've elaborated on after this original post to qualify labeling anyone a "pedophile apologist."

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    For the most part, the pedantic distinction between the two terms has little support from dictionaries, which by and large don't list "ephebophile". A little searching turns that up quickly enough.

    It's specialized language, used mostly by academics and professionals.

    The word's inclusion in everyday talk, then, strikes me as either eccentric or motivated by an agenda.

    "Pedophile," on the other hand, is widely documented and a little more searching reveals most definitions do NOT distinguish between the pre- or post- pubescence of the children in question.

    Google offers us this: http://www.ephebophile.com/

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike_n_herrin View Post
    why should that be the "main point." For me the main point is that he committed a criminal sexual action. Secondary is that he is gay and his actions have resulted in many people painting "us" with the same brush. Tertiary is the fact that he abused his position in order to carry out that criminal act.
    As has been pointed out, so far there's no crime -- so that's not a point at all.
    Others are painting "us" with the same brush out of ignorance, which is a good reason for us to use language correctly and not jump on the emotional bandwagon.

    His abuse of power IS the main point, because of who he is. We entrusted him with a position of power, and he put himself in a position to safeguard those he has IM'd, etc. Whether or not a crime is established, he still has abused his position. And that is more important than how anyone paints anyone else, because it is the real issue -- and if we cave on that, then we may as well let them paint us all pedophiles, because we'll have handed the agenda over to them. The issue isn't that he's gay, it's that he violated a trust (as have others, who are straight).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    For the most part, the pedantic distinction between the two terms has little support from dictionaries, which by and large don't list "ephebophile". A little searching turns that up quickly enough.

    It's specialized language, used mostly by academics and professionals.

    The word's inclusion in everyday talk, then, strikes me as either eccentric or motivated by an agenda.

    "Pedophile," on the other hand, is widely documented and a little more searching reveals most definitions do NOT distinguish between the pre- or post- pubescence of the children in question.

    Google offers us this: http://www.ephebophile.com/
    thanks for doing the research

    i cant believe i didnt think to check the information presented here

    its unlike me to be that sloppy

  8. #58
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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    There reports that puberty is happening earlier than in past decades. This is particularly true of girls. There appears to be some evidence that this is also the case for boys. Does this change the dynamics of this discussion?

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    heres the link to this article...


    http://www.childmolestationpreventio...hebophile.html

    What Is A Ephebophile And How Is He or She Different From A Pedophile?



    You have probably read since January 2002 about reports in the Roman Catholic Church of priests molesting children. When these cases have been examined in detail, the majority of accusations relate to adult priests molesting adolescent boys, 14 to 17 years of age. These abusers are called "ephebophiles" because they have a sexual interest in children who are post-puberty. Less common in the media reports of molestations in the Roman Catholic Church are reports of priests molesting children under 14 years of age. These abusers are called "pedophiles."
    Recent research indicates that the ratio of male pedophiles who molest boys versus male ephebophiles who molest boys, is four to one. That means male pedophiles are four times more frequent than male ephebophiles.
    But male ephebophiles who molest boys frequently become involved with other children. A study of over 600 male ephebophiles found that slightly over 50% also had a history of molesting boys under age 14. In addition, over 28% had molested girls under age 14, and 20% had molested girls 14 to 17 years of age.* From this information, it is clear that one shouldn't assume that a male ephebophile who molests adolescent boys doesn't also molest other categories of boys and girls.
    * Statistics provided by Abel Screening Incorporated, Atlanta, GA, August 2002.
    it would seem that the people in cahrge of watching out for the welfare of children have a view similar to zoltanspawn.

    thought another outside source would help

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Originally Posted by Green_Man_007
    Did Foley have inappropriately-sexual communications with pages WHILE they were in the page program, or after they had left and went home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreus View Post
    Quote:
    i dont think it matters.

    as we are about to see during the investigations that follow, i am not alone in my beliefs.
    It matters if one is charging, as Andreus did, that "he used his political and professional authority to further his sexual agenda in the workplace."

    That, of course, would be the crime of sexual harrassment in the workplace

    Flirtatious correspondence, without making any sexual contact physically, especially if the former pages were above the ages of consent in their respective states (in Georgia it's 16), does not make a crime.

    I'm neither condoning nor condemning Foley's interest in teenagers; but those who want him sentenced to castration by an AMERICAN court of law had better dig up an actual law he's broken.

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Finally, a point that has a source to back it up. Now a discussion is possible.

    Basically what I am reading is an argument supporting that ephebophiles are pedophiles, and already have a 50% chance of a history of molesting pre-pubescent children. It is interesting to note Abel Screening Inc. (the people who did the study) limits the classification of ephebophilia to the age of 17. Bear in mind, eighteen and nineteen are still considered adolescent years. In fact, adolescence does not technically end for many males until 20-21.

    In other words, the physiological characteristics of a 19 year-old are not far off from a 16 year-old. Use me as an example. I'm 21, but there are people who think I'm still in my teens. Years after turning 18, I have maintained the physiological characteristics of an adolescent. Everyone develops differently, and to distinguish who is a "pedophile" and who is not based on what happens before or after 18, is ridiculous.

    You are right, Zoltanspawn, research conducted on pedophilia is far greater than ephebophilia. The reason being is that Ephebophilia is not listed as a DSM (psychological mental disorder by the APA) but pedophilia is. Why? The impression that can be made is because ephebophilia is such a common characteristic of the general human populace it is not possible to label it as a mental disorder synonymous with pedophilia.

    Back to the research. Abel Screening Inc. monitored 600 "ephebophiles" where 300 of them had a history of molesting pre-pubescent children. What is interesting (besides the small sample number) is where and who did Abel Screening Inc. get this research from? I looked up the web site and haven't been able to find it. But I did find some of their other broad-sweeping discoveries:

    Men who have sex with children are nearly always committing additional sex crimes.
    Men who have sex with children usually start that behavior before they are 18 years old.
    Men who have sex with children usually have 3 victims before they are 18 years old.
    Men who have sex with their own children may also be having sex with other children in the community.
    Boy victims of sex crimes are at high risk to become sexually attracted to children and to become child sexual abusers.
    His treatment outcome study demonstrated that when treatment focused first on specific techniques to directly lower the offender's sexual arousal to children, it was most effective. Those techniques, along with an option of medical intervention for the most dangerous and both a strong relapse prevention component and a surveillance component, proved 96% effective in stopping subsequent sex crimes.
    I don't know about you, but we have a lot of men in the JUB community who have been victims of pedophilia. After reading their suffering, I find it difficult to comprehend that everyone who said "Yes, I've been molested" in the Hot Topics! forum is a danger to children. So I am having a difficult time accepting this limited research as gospel based on all the above reasons.

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    I had a chat with my psychologist, and have some comments to offer:

    Ephebophilia and hebophilia are not listed as disorders beause the objects of 'affection' are sufficiently developed to have sexual responses and are thus in the range of understandable sexual attraction -- and for most of human history, once there was pubic hair, you were "legal", including marryable (if that's a word)

    Ephebolphiles are NOT pedophiles, there's merely a serious overlap (intersection of sets).

    With respect to the little list at the end of the above post, Dr. R says there's a phenomenon called "age fixation" involved... and the word there isn't meant as popularly understood; it comes from an earlier era. "fixation" here means like the needle of a compass that gets stuck (fixed in one position) , and keeps pointing ENE no matter which way you turn it. For those who have been victims as children, up into the early teens (14 and under, which happens to be, apparently, the standard definition of "child", except for by politicians), if they go through something which sexua-emotionally "fixes" them, and do not go through something which "un-fixes"/unsticks them before the end of their teens, the odds of them becoming abusers in turn is extremely high.
    The simplest and most effective experience for ending the 'stuck' attraction is an affirming, friendly sexual relationship with someone his or her own age, or, secondarily, of some legal age -- in other words, "fun and friendly consensual sex", to quote Dr. R.
    So, having been abused isn't sufficient to aim someone at being an abuser; other factors are involved -- and thus many of our once-abused JUB folks aren't a danger to children in the slightest. Interestingly, Dr. R argues that homosexuals are less of a danger to children in general, because one element that helps turn that propensity off is taking a clear stand about who you are sexually -- and if you've come our, you've done that! It's almost like being gay, especially where it's not entirely safe to do so, is a vaccine against being an abuser (not 100% effective, perhaps, but potent).

    And if I didn't get Dr. R's concepts down here accurately, I have another session coming up in three weeks....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    ok

    what the hell

    its ok to have sex with underage people

    i'm just trying to find the relevance of this discussion

    and frankly...

    aside from lessening the negative impact of the crime of a sexual predator who is a politician, I dont see what it could relate to as a current event.

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Um, if you think it's ok to have sex with underage people....
    and if you've judged already that there's been a crime....

    it's not surprising that you don't see the relevance.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    i was being sacrastic to try to show that if we all agree and this silly notion actually matters, I don't think that it would have relevance in the discusion of foleys crimes.

    even if you guys are right i am having a hard time understanding where this fits into the current events part of the theme of this area of JUb if it is not used to consider the relevance of the crimes.

    how does this matter?

    this has been what I have been asking all along

    the only relevance to the crime seems to be that you guys are trying to soften the impact of his actions

    I don't think that it matters

  16. #66

    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreus View Post
    .....even if you guys are right i am having a hard time understanding where this fits into the current events part of the theme of this area of JUb if it is not used to consider the relevance of the crimes.
    how does this matter?
    (......)
    the only relevance to the crime seems to be that you guys are trying to soften the impact of his actions
    Categories and technical definitions are important to clarify what happened and explore some of the legal and ethical dilemmas here. The media tend to use language without clarification. "Pedophilia", "abuse of power" and a few other terms are being used in this case and technical clarification is essential. For example, it might be interesting to explore the current legal definitions of abuse of power and how those definitions apply to scenarios as online interactions. Personally, Im not "trying to soften the impact of his actions" but to define the problem with clear language that takes into account medical and legal definitions relevant to this particular situation.

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Nope, its not..! peodphialai is little kis, teenage attarction is pederastry! .ppplol

  18. #68
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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Merriam-webster and others don't make the distinction that is being made with puberty. http://www.webster.com/dictionary/pedophilia

    I agree that it is an important battle to distinguish gays from pedophiles. Though in my mind making the distinction between Pedophile and Ephebophile is a little like making the distinction between 1st and 2nd degree murder.

    Valid points were made but in my mind an unimportant battle.

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Even if such an ungainly word as 'ephebophile' were somehow to become common talk--and that's a pretty big "if"--I predict it would be a pejorative of the same stature as 'pedophile' in no time at all. Reason being, it's about sex with minors.

    ephebophile: proudly listed on "worthless word for the day" dot com

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreus View Post
    i was being sacrastic to try to show that if we all agree and this silly notion actually matters, I don't think that it would have relevance in the discusion of foleys crimes.

    even if you guys are right i am having a hard time understanding where this fits into the current events part of the theme of this area of JUb if it is not used to consider the relevance of the crimes.

    how does this matter?

    this has been what I have been asking all along

    the only relevance to the crime seems to be that you guys are trying to soften the impact of his actions

    I don't think that it matters
    I'll repeat that the people lumping it all together are trying to enflame others about the impact of his actions.
    I'll also repeat that so far there are no crimes, nor even actual accusations of crimes except in gossip.
    It fits into current events because on account of Foley, pedophilia is suddenly a topic.
    It's relevant to us because, like the twon I'm from, people are again putting "fags and pedophiles" together in one group.
    It's also relevant to a free country, because keeping liberty depends on having an educated electorate -- and people who run around lumping together pedophiles, hebophiles, ephebophiles, and homosexuals are not educated.
    It's also relevant because the real impact of his actions is in the abuse of power, not in crimes that haven't even been alleged. If we're going to see hate stirred up, it should be against politicians spouting one thing and then abusing their power in the opposite direction.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by ajacobs View Post
    Merriam-webster and others don't make the distinction that is being made with puberty. http://www.webster.com/dictionary/pedophilia

    I agree that it is an important battle to distinguish gays from pedophiles. Though in my mind making the distinction between Pedophile and Ephebophile is a little like making the distinction between 1st and 2nd degree murder.

    Valid points were made but in my mind an unimportant battle.
    Interesting that Webster's has become sloppy. Several news stations I've watched have pointed out the proper definition of pedophile as pre-pubescent, even!

    It's hardly an unimportant battle. There's an enorous difference between pressing sex on a person who has the capacity to have a grasp, to some extent at least, as to what's meant, because he's capable of experiencing sexual desire and pleasure, and inflicting it on someone who hasn't a clue what's even going on. Far from being merely the difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder, it's more like the difference between 1st degree murder and misdemeanor assault: the teen has a notion of the ground the battle is being fought on, but the pre-pubescent doesn't even have the capacity to grasp what the battle is about. It's the difference between facing another soldier, however inexperienced, and facing a blind, deaf, paraplegic.
    If Foley committed a crime, it was hardly one of ambushing an not only unsuspecting, but incapable of suspecting, victim, which is what pedophilia acted on always is -- and that's the difference.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #72
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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Interesting that Webster's has become sloppy. Several news stations I've watched have pointed out the proper definition of pedophile as pre-pubescent, even!

    It's hardly an unimportant battle. There's an enorous difference between pressing sex on a person who has the capacity to have a grasp, to some extent at least, as to what's meant, because he's capable of experiencing sexual desire and pleasure, and inflicting it on someone who hasn't a clue what's even going on. Far from being merely the difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder, it's more like the difference between 1st degree murder and misdemeanor assault: the teen has a notion of the ground the battle is being fought on, but the pre-pubescent doesn't even have the capacity to grasp what the battle is about. It's the difference between facing another soldier, however inexperienced, and facing a blind, deaf, paraplegic.
    If Foley committed a crime, it was hardly one of ambushing an not only unsuspecting, but incapable of suspecting, victim, which is what pedophilia acted on always is -- and that's the difference.

    While I do understand the distinction I consider it small. I follow the logic of others in this post as well as yours, I just don't feel the battle is worth the time to fight, there is certainly more pressing things.

    I don't think websters is getting slopping I think it is more a case of a medical definition as opposed to practical accepted definition. In the legal and sceintific word things have accepted well defined definitions where as they may in practice to a lay person not be so strickly construed or mean something different all togeather. Balanceing those to is a very difficult battle of changing the publics view. Sometimes even the medical definition of legal one is only used in that community. As an example - with you being a firearms owner - by New York state law the definition of a pistol includes a revolver. Of course many firearms owners would say that a revolver is not a pistol although they are both handguns.

    Making the distinction in terms of how well the minor in this case or others were aware of what they are doing is not needed. By law it is assumed that under the age of 18 (federal) or younger in some states for sexual purposes due not have the capacity to concent or know what they are doing in other matters such as contracts. When given a certain individual it may be possible to assertain through questioning if they understand what is going on that is not practical that is why age was used as a cutoff (as a matter of practicality). In my state there is no differece if someone had sex with a 9 year old or a 15 year old. They fall into the same catagory (even if the other party was only 16).

    To me this is just as much a crime regardless of the age if it is below the age of consent (which I know may seam arbatrary). And even if they were above the age of consent still an improper abuse of power and athority.

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Ephebophiliacs by definition may be attracted to kids aged 9 to 13.

    Lame.

    *
    By the way, in nosing around in response to this thread, I discovered I have FREE online access to the Oxford English Dictionary via my local library. THANKS, THREAD!!

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    The distinction is important because it determines whether or not you have a sexual attraction for pre-pubescent kids or teens who can be as old as 19 years-old. Big difference. And its relevant to Foley's case because the general media is labeling him as a pedophile when he is not. Its important for us to be educated and understand the difference to what Foley is and what he isn't. In this way, we can educate others that pedophilia is not a subjective generalization based on an age number of 18. Eighteen does not determine a physiologically mature adult. I'm 21, but if I find late teens attractive, does that make me a pedophile?

    Lets get real, here.

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    That's a good way of putting a big aspect of it. Even if people are bound to believe that all gays are attracted to kids the way Foley is, that doesn't have to mean we let them think we're all pedophiles.
    It's like any labeling. Consider the sex-offender label: people automatically link that with people who molest 6-year-olds. But the typical sex offender hasn't so much as glanced at anyone under 16!
    I use that example because if we let gay = pedophile, the easy link is that since sex offender = pedophile, then gay = sex offender. There are people who would like everyone to believe that -- letting them use words sloppily here is just letting them drag society down that path.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    The distinction is important because it determines whether or not you have a sexual attraction for pre-pubescent kids or teens who can be as old as 19 years-old.
    As long as we're bringing instances of late puberty into the equation, it's only fair to also recognize early puberty.

    In which case, it's a precise use of 'ephebophile' to describe adults attracted to children as young as 6 or 7 as such.

    Just to keep it real.

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    6 or 7 is pre-pubescence.

    Where are you suddenly hijacking the thread with a new definition thats way before adolescence?

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    he is supposing an arguement that counters your ideas, not hijacking.

    i am reading still, but nothing new or convincing has popped up to change my mind

    just keeping it real

    btw jb18.... most states have clauses that cover up to a 3 year difference, so....

    your attraction to 18 yr olds as a 21 yr old are covered legally and expected

    i dont see the relevance to current events

    anyway....

    carry on

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    6 or 7 is pre-pubescence.

    Where are you suddenly hijacking the thread with a new definition thats way before adolescence?
    But 6 or 7 is not always pre-puberty. There are children who are reaching adolescence at that age. Like the definition of "pedophile," this is a very googlable thing.

    So, it is accurate to use 'ephebophilia' in reference to post-pubescent 8 year olds.

    Adolescence is an arbitrary marker of maturity since it can occur at such a wide range of ages.

    (And yeah, slightly off the current events theme. But very much on topic to the ideas central to the original post.)

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Which is a very small minority. And under that same token, adolescence concludes as old as 21, well into the range of general society's perception of adulthood. My impression is you are trying to generalize ephebophilia under that small token, rather than distinguishing it from pedophilia. The flaw in that reasoning, is that even if an 8 year-old is starting puberty, they are no where near the physiological characteristics of a 16 year-old that Foley would be attracted to.

    In my current circumstances, I'd probably find that same 16 year-old pretty attractive, but I would be disgusted to feel the same way if he was 8. Therefore, the sexual preference is not the same.

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    I don't think it's been established what sort of physiological characteristics Mr. Foley is attracted to. Exactly how post- or pre-pubescent were the children that he messaged? Was it their physical youthfulness or maturity he fantasized about? We really don't know, even with scrutiny of the messages he sent.

    I'm not *trying* to generalize anything about 'ephebophilia': because puberty itself is not an event which can be generalized. Puberty commonly starts in girls at age 9 and boys at age 13. It can start much younger than that. When puberty ends also occurs across a range of ages. Maximum height? Big nads? Fertility? 'Post-pubescence' is harder to define--puberty is a process, not a clearly demarcated single event.

    These gray areas around the age at which 'puberty occurs' makes 'ephebophilia' a very imprecise word, let alone an excuse for poor behavior.

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    The "gray areas" don't make ephebolphilia an imprecise word at all. What they do, rather, is challenge our regimentalist, compartmentalist, ageist mindset that wants everyone to be in lockstep by the calendar.
    The fuzzy boundary, calendar-wise, for the start of puberty, is a good reason for re-thinking our laws, to make them match reality instead of some mythical compartmentalization of things. Categories of crime shouldn't be by age, but by the maturity of the victim... and of the perpetrator.

    BTW, no one is using any word here for an excuse for any kind of behavior. What I see is an attempt at clear thinking, so we don't jump on the bandwagon that is emotion-charged for the purpose of serving the interests of politicians. They don't want an educated electorate, but a knee-jerk one that turns and jumps at their whimper or shout.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    ^ Exactly.

    I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes to blast Foley. He's a shameful man. I just want to point out a very important difference that many people are not realizing.

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The "gray areas" don't make ephebolphilia an imprecise word at all. What they do, rather, is challenge our regimentalist, compartmentalist, ageist mindset that wants everyone to be in lockstep by the calendar.
    The fuzzy boundary, calendar-wise, for the start of puberty, is a good reason for re-thinking our laws, to make them match reality instead of some mythical compartmentalization of things. Categories of crime shouldn't be by age, but by the maturity of the victim... and of the perpetrator.
    I'm assuming in that last sentence you mean the physiological maturity of children? So that, our new ageism-free consent laws would view a post-pubescent 9 year old girl similarly to a post-pubescent 20 year old? (I.e., in circumstances of precocious and delayed puberty.) If by 'maturity' you don't mean the physiological sort, what do you mean?

    BTW, no one is using any word here for an excuse for any kind of behavior. What I see is an attempt at clear thinking, so we don't jump on the bandwagon that is emotion-charged for the purpose of serving the interests of politicians. They don't want an educated electorate, but a knee-jerk one that turns and jumps at their whimper or shout.
    Suggesting that an attraction to post-pubescent children is normal is indeed making an excuse for Mark Foley's behavior. Read the original post. The only politicians you are serving, I fear, are those who believe that gay men who challenge age-of-consent laws want to fuck children.

    *

    And also up for grabs, how are we defining 'post-pubescent' anyway? It would be a shame if that crucial term got mixed up with, say, 'late-pubescent,' 'mid-pubescent,' or even 'early-pubescent.'

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    Re: Sticky please: Pedophilia is NOT teenage attraction!

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    I'm assuming in that last sentence you mean the physiological maturity of children? So that, our new ageism-free consent laws would view a post-pubescent 9 year old girl similarly to a post-pubescent 20 year old? (I.e., in circumstances of precocious and delayed puberty.) If by 'maturity' you don't mean the physiological sort, what do you mean?

    Suggesting that an attraction to post-pubescent children is normal is indeed making an excuse for Mark Foley's behavior. Read the original post. The only politicians you are serving, I fear, are those who believe that gay men who challenge age-of-consent laws want to fuck children.

    And also up for grabs, how are we defining 'post-pubescent' anyway? It would be a shame if that crucial term got mixed up with, say, 'late-pubescent,' 'mid-pubescent,' or even 'early-pubescent.'
    Yes -- physiological maturity. It makes far more sense than arbitrary lines, a reality that kids themselves recognize.

    "Normal" is a slippery word. I'd rather say that attraction to individuals who have hit puberty is understandable, and not totally irrational, as is the attraction to pre-pubescents (what is there to be attracted TO???).
    I dispute the assertion about what politicians are being served. By making a rational, fact-based distinction, reason and sense are being served. If some misuse it, that can't be avoided, but it's better than serving the politicians who want us ignorant and bound to emotion.

    Post-pubescence would, logically, begin at the point when all the physiological changes of puberty are finished. Pinning that down could be a bit problematic, though. Personally, I would abandon that approach and take it as the point at which the human brain has finished re-wiring itself (again), which IIRC is around age 20.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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