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  1. #1
    JUB Addict wilehart1978's Avatar
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    Republican vs. Democrat

    Most of the opinions in the posts are pretty much split across party lines. So, I wanted to see if there were any brave hearts from either party to answer the following:

    a. Are there any Republican JUBers who will admit George Bush has done a less than favorable job as President?

    b. Are there any Democratic JUBers are there who will admit that Democratic leaders really have no plan or vision for fixing what they continuously say is wrong with Washington and Mr. Bush's performance?

  2. #2
    Banned chance1's Avatar
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Republican JUBers - I'd be interested in a poll for the # of - relative to Dems. I'm guessing 20-25%

    As for b (cause I'm a registered Dem) - not sure you're gonna get much yes on that one

    But I'd say that's accurate

    Easy to criticize - tougher to fix

    And a lot of JUBers do the same thing as you write about the politicians above - they criticize the current admin w/o really looking for answers - only that so and so was a better Pres than George W, etc.

    good post

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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Republican JUBers - I'd be interested in a poll for the # of - relative to Dems. I'm guessing 20-25%

    As for b (cause I'm a registered Dem) - not sure you're gonna get much yes on that one

    But I'd say that's accurate

    Easy to criticize - tougher to fix

    And a lot of JUBers do the same thing as you write about the politicians above - they criticize the current admin w/o really looking for answers - only that so and so was a better Pres than George W, etc.

    good post

    Actually, I did a poll not too long ago asking fellow JUB memers where they fit on the political spectrum. Take a look at the percentages there. Look either under the poll section or under my threads or posts.

  4. #4
    stevenavy2003
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    I'm a Republican that definitely thinks the current administration has made it's share of mistakes. I also think they've been dealt an odd combination of issues to deal with as well.

    I'm not so Republican that I wouldn't entertain the idea of voting for the right Democrat. But, I haven't seen any concrete proposals from their leadership that are constructive in any manner. But, I am very clear on what they oppose. I'm sure the Dems will find their posture more challenging to legislate from when they take the majority in November--but it will be interesting to watch.

  5. #5
    On the Prowl jordyy's Avatar
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    well, i think i'm the perfect person to answer both questions. i myself am an independent, leaning more towards democrat. however, i am from texas, and voted for bush in 04. i was definitely a bit dissappointed in Dubya (even moreso now), but i don't regret my vote for him. why? well, because of your second question. someone running on the campaign of "hey, i'm not bush" isn't enough to get my vote. john kerry had no clear ideas, and failed to identify his beliefs. he was afraid of alienating certain people, and that, my friend, is a pansy. i'd rather have a less-than-stellar badass than a pansy. of course, in 08 my vote goes to Hillary, cuz she is a far bigger badass mofo than Bush is
    :thewaveeath is the road to Awe:thewave:

  6. #6
    Professional Hoodrat james1200's Avatar
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    so in your eyes, instead of taking a small risk with an unknown like kerry, it's better to vote for someone you know for a fact starts wars based on lies and who has killed tens of thousands of people as a result, lets his personal religious beliefs guide foreign and domestic policy in direct violation of the constitution you republicans claim to worship, had increased domestic spending to record levels again in direct violation of every tenent that republicans have held for the last 100years (and that is even discounting military spending)...do i need to go on? i am so sick of hearing that at least bush believes in something!!! if i told you to get in a car with me so we could drive off a cliff together because god told me to do it and i believe that to be true you would have me commited and yet you willingly follow the coke sniffing drunk in the oval office...perhaps his brains have been fried by years of partying and he's hallucinating folks...time to wake up!

    and oh yeah...lest i forget, he thinks you are a second class citizen not entitled to the same rights as him cause you like dick.

  7. #7

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    A- Does'nt really apply to me since I'm a dem, I would HOPE that they have figured out by now that they voted for a bigot and that they do not fall into what the conservatives want (they don't want gays or anyone whose not white in the GOP period).

    B- I admit that most of the Dems in Washington are just as bad as the Republicans. They are concentrating to much on being Republican-lite that they are not showing how different they are from the right.
    Alot of Dems that are not directly tied to Washington are great and have plans. Barack Obama, Gen. Wes Clark, Howard Dean, Debbie Stabenow etc are great examples of this.

    Personally I like the Dem party to be more liberal and kick out the conseratives out.

  8. #8
    Professional Hoodrat james1200's Avatar
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    ^^yeah but they can't...i have no problems with conservatives being in the dem party cause my congressmen couldn't get elected by the yahoos in alabama...and we use to have a lot of conservatives in the dem party til they jumped ship...but then again, maybe we won't need them...let's not forget that congress is almost evenly divided...and if like everyone predicts, the republicans get wiped out in the northeast and west and cease to exist in those regions, we could have a reverse of what happened after the civil war where the democrats (who were the racist assholes back then) completely dominated the south but didn't exist as a party anywhere else and so the republicans dominated the presidency and congress for a generation...the dems can engineer the same thing and isolate the republicans in the south...knock on wood.

  9. #9

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    I guess this thread is closed to kulindahr, jackoroe, and myself at least.

  10. #10
    General_Alfie
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by jordyy View Post
    well, i think i'm the perfect person to answer both questions. i myself am an independent, leaning more towards democrat. however, i am from texas, and voted for bush in 04. i was definitely a bit dissappointed in Dubya (even moreso now), but i don't regret my vote for him. why? well, because of your second question. someone running on the campaign of "hey, i'm not bush" isn't enough to get my vote. john kerry had no clear ideas, and failed to identify his beliefs. he was afraid of alienating certain people, and that, my friend, is a pansy. i'd rather have a less-than-stellar badass than a pansy. of course, in 08 my vote goes to Hillary, cuz she is a far bigger badass mofo than Bush is

    Un-Huh. Oh, I'll just bet my life that you're for Hillary. And you think Kerry's a pansy, and you think Bush is a badass. And you "lean" Democratic, too, huh? Gosh. "Must be one of them exaggerations," as Bush once slurred.

    You call John Kerry a "pansy," which is amusing, considering Kerry's service in Vietnam and his awards. You call Bush a "badass." Um, and where on earth was Bush during his desertership? And how much cocaine was he doing? And who got him out of serving in Vietnam and out of military prison for deserting from the Air National Guard?

    You chose a butcher instead of a baker. Look at the damage that freak of nature has caused! I reject your claim that Kerry "had no clear ideas." Health care for all, modernizing our government, ending the war in Iraq, fighting the war on terrorists with everything we have, canceling Bush's tax welfare for the wealthy and restoring sanity to the budget, increasing the size of the military. These are ALL GREAT IDEAS. That you didn't see them tells me that you weren't looking, but most Republicans don't really care about the facts, they just want to win. You won, America lost. Congratulations.

  11. #11
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quit saying Bush did this and Bush did that. The House and Senate also have to vote on the issues.
    To the world you may be one person but to one person you may be the world.

  12. #12
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7 View Post
    I guess this thread is closed to kulindahr, jackoroe, and myself at least.
    I'll put my two cents in anyway. I'm no fan of Bush's spending. I'm also deeply concerned about these signing statements where he seems to indicate he won't enforce laws he disagrees with. There are too many attacks on individual freedoms from this bunch. The Republicans seem to be like to old Democrats.This deficiet is obscene. They spend too much and want too much influence in my life which isn't spelled out in the Constitution. Having tasted power, they were corrupted by it. They need to read that inconvenient 10 th. Amendment again.

    The Democrats are even worse. They have no plan, at least one they wish to make public. They seem to be run by the extreme left wing kooks like Dean, Pelosi and Harry Reid. They can't reveal their true left wing nature to the public, because they would be rebuked at election time. So they run as being anti-Bush. That may be enough, but it shows a terrible lack of vision and leadership. Of course they'll tax the bejeezus out of us and piss it down some rathole in the form of wealth redistribution given the chance.

  13. #13
    Random dude
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by james1200 View Post
    so in your eyes, instead of taking a small risk with an unknown like kerry, it's better to vote for someone you know for a fact starts wars based on lies and who has killed tens of thousands of people as a result, lets his personal religious beliefs guide foreign and domestic policy in direct violation of the constitution you republicans claim to worship, had increased domestic spending to record levels again in direct violation of every tenent that republicans have held for the last 100years (and that is even discounting military spending)...do i need to go on? i am so sick of hearing that at least bush believes in something!!!
    Same here. It's like someone saying "Hey...at least Hitler had a plan!" What kind of fucked up horseshit is that? As long as somebody "has a plan" they're automatically better than the opposition? What if that plan goes completely in the wrong direction? Oh well, it's only 8 years, thousands of lives, trillions of dollars and who knows what else.

    Anyway....agree. Tired of hearing people make excuses as to why they voted for Bush when he was so clearly wrong from day one.

  14. #14
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    I admit to being a Republican and having voted for Bush twice. I also admit to having a range of emotions about the way he has handled his office.

    I am disgusted that as a "conservative" he has spent like a drunken sailor.

    I am pissed that he has squandered international support from 9/11.

    I do not understand how he could have been so dense as to get us in a no-win scenario in Iraq. Stay the course and we lose in world public opinion. Withdraw and we are seen as pansies by our enemies. Clearly this has been a monumental mistake, eventhough I support the initial premise for our going in.

    On the other hand, economically the country is doing quite well. Taxes are down, unemployment is down, interest rates continue to be low, inflation (other than the energy sector) is almost non-existant and our economy is growing at a faster rate than any other country (except China).

    I am open to voting for Democrats, and have in the past. But what I want to hear are realistic solutions instead of playing one special interest against another. I want to hear a realistic solution to getting out of Iraq - how does "phased withdrawal" make us safer? I want to know that Democrats, while interested in talking to resolve world problems, are not afraid to act to protect American citizens and our interests. I want to hear the Democrats say that we don't care what France et al think when we make a decision, that we will act in our best interest first and foremost.

    I want to hear Democrats come up with an economic plan that does not start with more taxes. I want to hear Democrats emphasize that while it takes a community to support the neediest, it takes individuals and businesses with initiative and incentive to make everyone wealthier.

    I want to hear Democrats support new ideas to improve education instead of just bowing to the pressure of "stay the course" teachers unions.

    I guess, what I want to hear above all else, from anyone who wants my vote, is solutions to what needs fixing without passing blame or judgement, and for both parites to stop bitch slapping each other.

  15. #15
    Professional Hoodrat james1200's Avatar
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    ^^and you're from boston? for shame...

    just read this story...if southern women aren't afraid of change, you certainly shouldn't be...

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/07/D8K07CM80.html



    except for this kool aid drinker...she's hysterical...this is her quote directly from the story..

    "There are some people, and I'm one of them, that believe George Bush was placed where he is by the Lord," Tomanio said. "I don't care how he governs, I will support him. I'm a Republican through and through."

    if you read between the lines, that's what you sound like.

  16. #16
    JUB Addicts kev's Avatar
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    I think certainly Republicans and President Bush could do things better. The latter's biggest deficiency is his poor communication skills, when he is trying to talk like anyone other than the Texan that he is. He has not mobilized this country for war. On the other hand, he has very few friends in the Media, and they control the message. So even if he were more vocal and sounded like a Parliamentarian, the MSM would not play along.

    And since some of you have taken this thread into another Bush-bashing direction, here is a surprise for you. I lay a lot of blame for the apparent anit-American feelings around the world squarely on the Democrats and their MSM. People like President Carter, Al Gore, Howard Dean, Michael Moore, Dan Rather, Ben Keller, Eric Lichtblau, et. al., have done far more to encourage anti-American feelings than President Bush or any Republican has.

    We have been told by Al-Quaeda that the only way for America to lose is to lose in the media, which they are doing for them...hook, line, and sinker.

  17. #17
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Republican JUBers - I'd be interested in a poll for the # of - relative to Dems. I'm guessing 20-25%

    As for b (cause I'm a registered Dem) - not sure you're gonna get much yes on that one

    But I'd say that's accurate

    Easy to criticize - tougher to fix

    And a lot of JUBers do the same thing as you write about the politicians above - they criticize the current admin w/o really looking for answers - only that so and so was a better Pres than George W, etc.

    good post
    Agreed.

    Check out this JUB poll as to your first statment.

    http://justusboys.com/forum/showthre...ight=Democrats

    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by wilehart1978 View Post
    Most of the opinions in the posts are pretty much split across party lines. So, I wanted to see if there were any brave hearts from either party to answer the following:

    a. Are there any Republican JUBers who will admit George Bush has done a less than favorable job as President?

    b. Are there any Democratic JUBers are there who will admit that Democratic leaders really have no plan or vision for fixing what they continuously say is wrong with Washington and Mr. Bush's performance?
    The last Republican that I voted for was Bush 41.

    I dated a guy here in Texas who was a big time Dem, and we worked together during the "Unity '92" campaign.

    He always referred to Republicans as "fascists," even as far back as 1992.

    I use to laugh, until I saw first hand how they ran thier campaigns; intimidation, campaign sign stealing, lies, distortions of the truth, mileading campaign materials.

    I've been a Democrat ever since.

    Not because I think that Democrats are better at running thier campaigns, obviously they're not.

    Maybe the Dems need someone like Karl Rove!

    I have recently met several Republicans who've told me personally that there is no way in hell that they're voting Republican this year. Mostly out of protest for Bush lying about his conservative credentials, the deficit, the mess in Iraq, and the apparent duplicity of those currently running the Republican Party.

    They're planning on voting Independent or not at all.

    I'm pretty happy that the Texas Democratic Party doesn't take its marching orders from the Democratic National Committee. I've never been a fan of Howard Dean, and I sure as hell didn't vote for him when he was running for National Chair.

    Besides, for the most part I feel like the DNC has pretty much abandoned Texas this election cycle since Tom DeLay redistricted most all of Texas' leading Democrats out of office.

    When Howard Dean talked about seats last weekend on one of the Sunday Morning news programs, he didn't once mention that Republican Senator Kay Baily Hutchison has a Democratric openent Ann Radnofsky in the race.

    All of the Texas candidates who are running State-wide election here in Texas have a plan, and their vision is so much fresher than anything the Republican incumbents have for Texas. There's not a candidate on the Texas Democratic Party that I have any reservations about casting my vote for.

    NOW on a national level, I can't say that I see any one in leadership in the Democratic Party that I would take a bullet for.

    That doesn't mean that the Democratic Party doesn't have a plan, that it has no goals, and that it lacks vision. What it lacks at the moment is a leader with the guts to call the shit the way he sees it, is able to commicate that vision to the American people, and move us all forward.

    Most of the folks that I know personally (Republican and Democrats) aren't happy with ANY of the status quo at the moment.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

  19. #19
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Maybe what we need is a different system of selecting candidates; in spite of primaries and conventions which are pretty open, no one without substantial financial backing has much of a chance. With public financing, we might get a better mix of candidates.

    We need ballots open to third parties. Today, with the connivance of both parties we make it very difficult for third parties even to get on the ballot.

    We need some way to insure that minority parties are represented in the legislative bodies, something that would be hard for the U>S. Senate but not in the House in states with larrge delegations. So in the case of a state electing 20 members, any party getting 5 percent of the vote would be entitled to one member. It's an goal that can be achieved in a variety of ways. And, it would take the push for partisan advantage in districting out of the picture as the votes would be counted by party not individual candidate and would be counted statewide.

    Republicans have been very successful fundraisers and one need only look at the results of the last five years to see how handsomely it has paid off to the contributors of big bucks. Democrats also have raised large sums from big givers and that includes a lot of corporations. SOMEHOW WE HAVE TO GET THE INFLUENCE OF BIG MONEY OUT OF POLITICS.

    So that leaves the question : Which of the players in this corrupt system will I reward with my vote? We've heard more lying since Bush came in than in any ten years period with the Democrats in power. And, the lying has been about matters that have far-reaching effects on peoples' lives here and abroad. My point is that we should not elect liars and we should not elect those who aid and abet the lying president...so, throw them out. A war that' killing decent people in our armed forces and in countries where we are throwing our weight around is a more important issue for me than banning abortions, banning gay marriage and civil unions, flag burning or the display of the Ten commmandments.

  20. #20
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Maybe the Dems need someone like Karl Rove!
    Sad, but also very true.

  21. #21
    thirstycanadianboy
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Well I'm canadian so I dunno we have left, right and center so about 60% of the country's gonna hate the current government either way. There was a poll done here in canada and it showed that about 55% canadians don't blame Bush. I think they blame the current state on the country's foriegn policy more than the administration. Well 65% Quebecers blame the foriegn policy aswell so I dunno Canada leans to far Left for my tastes, I'm a conservative but you gotta draw the line some where and well I kinda see how i would be the foriegn policy that makes the Admin look bad more than the Admin it's self that and bush makes little gramatical errors. I'm not saying our system is better I'm just saying that no system is good. Either way some portion of the populations gonna hate the party in power.

  22. #22
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    I am a registered Democrat but have always voted for the candidate I thought best at the time.

    I live in California and the Democrats have made a mess of this state. They have controlled the legislature for over a decade and waste their time passing ridiculous bills ( outlawing school textbooks over 200 pages, forcing schools to change their mascots if they have names "offensive" to Native Americans i.e., Chiefs, Braves, Warriors, etc. ) while letting the state sink into massive debt, letting the public school system continue its' downward spiral, and gerrymandering their own districts. At the state level, I now vote straight Republican, just because the Democrats have fucked things up so badly.

    At the federal level, I am disgusted by both parties. There are a few politicians I like of both parties ( Sen. Mc Cain, Sen. Biden, Sen. Feinstein, Sen. Hagel, Gov. Richardson of New Mexico ), but I don't think a Democratic controlled congress would be any better.

    I guess I am more of an old-fashioned, small government, libertarian Republican. Too bad there don't seem to be any left in politics.

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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by wilehart1978 View Post
    a. Are there any Republican JUBers who will admit George Bush has done a less than favorable job as President?


    Yes. George Bush is an attricious president. There was a time when republicans stood for fiscal responsiblity, lower taxes and as much personal freedom as you could get your hands on. Since Bush has been in office they've gone on a spending spree at close to credit card interest rates and passed unfunded mandates. On top of that they've maintained power recently by focusing on legislating restrictions on our personal freedoms. Generally the Republican party has sold itself out to hang on to power and no one is a greater manifestation of this than the current president.

  24. #24
    General_Alfie
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by beekman001 View Post
    There was a time when republicans stood for fiscal responsiblity, lower taxes and as much personal freedom as you could get your hands on.

    You know, I increasingly wonder if the mantle of "Fiscally Conservative/Socially Liberal" that the GOP has constructed for itself isn't as fake and as invented as Trudy Giuliani's advertising-agency created "America's Mayor."

    Look at the Republican presidents since the end of WWII. Other than Eisenhower, let's see how "fiscally conservative and socially liberal" they were:

    Nixon:
    blew a hole through the deficit, engaged in secret wars in Asia, pathological liar, created new social feeding programs, enlarged existing ones. On the "freedom front," Nixon secretly taped conversations and was at the very center of the Watergate scandal.

    Reagan: race-baiter. Sought to build political strength by denigrating blacks, cut taxes that blew a hole in the deficit to an extent that he was forced to later raise taxes. Engaged in secret operations, perverted the will of congress, ran his presidency in a bubble so as to avoid dissenting voices.

    George HW Bush: race-baiter. Lost control of the economy, blew a hole in the deficit, ran an unspeakably filthy and racist (and failed) election campaign.

    George W Bush: Gay-baiter. Doubled the entire United States government's accumulated federal debt -- a debt 200 years in the making -- in five years. Cut taxes for the hyper-wealthy, institutionalized a structural deficit for the next ten years. On the freedom front, he's admitted to ordering illegal wiretapping of American citizens' phones and data, and has done more to undermine our freedoms that any of our enemies -- even Hitler -- could have done.

    So. Where is this Republican "fiscal conservatism" we hear so much about? And while the term "cutting taxes" may sound lie a meritorious thing to do, what of the consequences of these actions? The term "tax cutter" should not be a compliment when the flip side of the coin is that the true cost of the tax cuts is simply shifted to our national "bar tab." I mean, anyone can give away taxpayer money, but it takes a real Republican to give it ALL to their hyper-wealthy pals.

    I think it is clear, once examined, that the Republicans are neither "fiscally" prudent, nor particularly "conservative," and that their reputation as being such is another urban myth.

  25. #25
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7 View Post
    I guess this thread is closed to kulindahr, jackoroe, and myself at least.
    Heh.

    I predicted from the start that Bush would run his presidency like he ran his Texas ranch, and sure enough... there was that pesky Taliban, so he sent the boys out after them varmints, and there was that critter Saddam, so Georgie gathered the posse and sent them off after him. But the world isn't his ranch, and once the varmints are shot you can't just go back to the ranchhouse and have a cold one... so money gets wasted, and good folks die, and it will be years before we can reasonably get out of there.

    OTOH... I haven't seen a democrat since... Hubert Humphrey who I thought was presidential material, either, nor do I see any on the horizon. There isn't one on the national scene who believes in the BIll of Rights -- not that Bush does, either.

    What we need are two new parties, not just new candidates. The assembly line is broken, so there'sno point in hoping the next unit coming down the line will be any better.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  26. #26
    joelbarish
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    I'm a registered Democrat, but at the same time I agree with a lot of the fundamental policies Republicans embrace (strong national defense, low taxes, etc.).

    The problem with the Democrats is, their philosophy seems to be "Blame Bush" while offering no solid ideas on which direction our country needs to be moving. It's easy to bitch and complain; and it just seems like all they do is talk and engage in little action.

    Democrats haven't completely lost me though---the Republicans' fear mongering, racism/sexism, and blind support of Bush (in spite of his weak leadership) has left a bad taste in my mouth.

    This upcoming election I'll go with the best candidates as opposed to sticking with one party.

  27. #27

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    And since some of you have taken this thread into another Bush-bashing direction, here is a surprise for you. I lay a lot of blame for the apparent anit-American feelings around the world squarely on the Democrats and their MSM. People like President Carter, Al Gore, Howard Dean, Michael Moore, Dan Rather, Ben Keller, Eric Lichtblau, et. al., have done far more to encourage anti-American feelings than President Bush or any Republican has.
    Kev if you really think Jimmy Carter's words are the cause of apparent anti-american feelings and not pictures of dead Iraqi women and children beamed throughout the arab world you should really try dipping your toe into the waters of reality.

    Much of the world has become suspicious of us because they see the most powerful country in the world use that power in a disconserting manner.

    I'm neither a dem or a republican but I do agree with both statements A and B. After reading the above comments about how the dems have no plan for Iraq I am reminded how times have changed. In 1968 while the war in Vietnam was raging on it was enough for the republican candidate Nixon not to have started the war....the dems lost largely because they did. Nixon had a plan to get us out of Vietnam but he never had to detail it.

    The current republicans are fighting furiously to focus attention on the future in Iraq because if we focus on how we got to where we are today they will loose.

  28. #28
    YourNickname
    Guest

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by wilehart1978 View Post
    Most of the opinions in the posts are pretty much split across party lines. So, I wanted to see if there were any brave hearts from either party to answer the following:

    a. Are there any Republican JUBers who will admit George Bush has done a less than favorable job as President?
    Oh God yes. I was rooting for McCain in the 2000 Primary, and I've been banging my head against the wall for the past 6 years over Bush's domestic policy. But on foreign affairs, I've only grown more affectionate towards Bush.

  29. #29
    seapuppy
    Guest

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by YourNickname View Post
    Oh God yes. I was rooting for McCain in the 2000 Primary, and I've been banging my head against the wall for the past 6 years over Bush's domestic policy. But on foreign affairs, I've only grown more affectionate towards Bush.
    Wow! That took guts from what I've read on this forum. I will grab your hand in solidarity bro.

    Like many gay people who usually vote for the GOP, I have problems with the wing-nuts who give the big money and influance to the Party. Both parties have them. They Dem's are just as scary to me. It's just the nature of the beast of American politics.

    I'm more socially liberal, of course, than most on the "religious right", but I wouldn't call my self a "social liberal" in the hippie-anything-goes-free love-make love not war-60's lingo. Much of what christian critics have to say about modern American society has merit.

    I also am a McCain fan who has supported President Bush on exactly the reason the majority of the country does not.

    With all this administration's mistakes, (and they are many...), I support him BECAUSE of his foreign policy. On this, the most important issue the country faces...I believe he is largely right. Sen. McCain agrees.

    Like many gay conservatives, I also am just more turned off by the Left than the Right. Maybe it's just nature, not nurture, but when I here Nancy Pilosi or Cindy Sheehan or the Hollywood crowd pontificate...I know I'm NOT one of them. They're just nails on a chalkboard to me....

  30. #30
    General_Alfie
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by seapuppy View Post
    Like many gay people who usually vote for the GOP, I have problems with the wing-nuts who give the big money and influance to the Party. Both parties have them. They Dem's are just as scary to me. It's just the nature of the beast of American politics.
    Yeah, I guess there must be hordes and hordes of gays voting for the "We Hate Gays" party. I don't question your right to be in the political party of hate and homophobia, but I do wonder why a gay man -- I hope you don't mind that assumption -- would support people who work hard every day to limit our rights under law.

    Quote Originally Posted by seapuppy
    I'm more socially liberal, of course, than most on the "religious right", but I wouldn't call my self a "social liberal" in the hippie-anything-goes-free love-make love not war-60's lingo. Much of what chistian critics have to say about modern American society has merit.
    Oh, you do? Like when the two religious freaks, Falwell and Robertson, blamed gays for the attacks of "9/11"

    JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."


    PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur...
    That's the sort of stuff from human garbage that you think "has merit?" Wow.

  31. #31
    seapuppy
    Guest

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    1. No, I don't mind at all being called a gay man...lol. I wasn't looking for truck parts on-line when I accidently stumbled onto JUB.

    2. Yes, EXACTLY like Falwell and Robertson. You get no argument from me on those guys. Thats why I posted what I did.

    3. Your totaly stretching the truth as to the difference between the two parties on "gay rights" and "working to limit my rights every day", and thats not an agreed upon definition. The only major gay rights issue on the national scene right now is gay marriage and if I recall, the last Democrat administration was as dead set against it as well as the last two Democrat candidates for President.

    4. About 1 out of 4 gay people voted for President Bush and that is more than many other groups traditionaly loyal to the Democratic Party. Alfie, just read the posters on this site. I only got the courage to post because I was pleasently surprised at the large numbers of othe gay conservatives I read.

  32. #32
    YourNickname
    Guest

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by General_Alfie View Post
    Yeah, I guess there must be hordes and hordes of gays voting for the "We Hate Gays" party. I don't question your right to be in the political party of hate and homophobia, but I do wonder why a gay man -- I hope you don't mind that assumption -- would support people who work hard every day to limit our rights under law.
    I care about my country, and I fear what the opposition seeks to do to it. If their track record from 1930 to 1994 is anything, then I cannot in good faith ever support the Democratic Party without major policy changes.

    Gay marriage is not at the top of my totem pole of important issues. Gay discrimination is in the top 10, but I can say, as an out Gay Republican, who is active on a daily basis within my local GOP and my community, I have never felt discriminated against by my fellow Republicans, or my neighbors. I have, on multiple occasions, felt very discriminated against by people with similar attitudes as yours, General Alfie. People from the left wing who absolutely hate me for my political affiliation, and feel my sexual orientation compounds that. One party has shown it is tollerable, the other has shown me that it will only tollerate me if I agree with it. The latter is the Democratic Party.

    Oh, you do? Like when the two religious freaks, Falwell and Robertson, blamed gays for the attacks of "9/11"
    Since 2001, Falwell and Robertson have both given large sums of money to the CONSTITUTION Party. That might dampen your argument that they are currently affiliated with the GOP. Although I'm aware of their history of involvement with the GOP, it was mostly unsuccessful fringe PAC work.

  33. #33

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    "Fiscally Conservative/Socially Liberal"
    WTF does Fiscally Conservative even mean? Does it mean that they conserve money or what? From the way the Bush adminstration has handeld the nation's money, it seems to me that it's the opposite of what conserving something is.

    People from the left wing who absolutely hate me for my political affiliation, and feel my sexual orientation compounds that. One party has shown it is tollerable, the other has shown me that it will only tollerate me if I agree with it. The latter is the Democratic Party.
    I'll be the first to admit that yes, I do beleive being a gay republican is a contridiction and just not computing with me. But I do want to point out that it's the liberals that majorly support gay rights and marriage, as well as most moderates.
    How is the Republican part more tolerable of gay people anyway? Most republicans out there are so vocal against gays that it's hard to understand why someone whose gay would agree with them, much less make excuses about their bigotry.

  34. #34

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Mr. BiGuy, paleo-conservatives or true conservatives or whatever you wish to call those that are not neoconservatives or pseudoconservatives, but that's just my opinion, have typically complained about this administration's fiscal irresponsibility. Of course their complaints should be shoveled heavily against the Republican Congress moreso since they betrayed their own Contract With America; it is, afterall, Congress and not the President that controls the nation's treasury.

  35. #35
    General_Alfie
    Guest

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by YourNickname View Post
    I care about my country, and I fear what the opposition seeks to do to it. If their track record from 1930 to 1994 is anything, then I cannot in good faith ever support the Democratic Party without major policy changes.
    Of course, I don't agree and you offer no examples to support your claim, but that's fine -- it's your right.

    Gay marriage is not at the top of my totem pole of important issues. Gay discrimination is in the top 10, but I can say, as an out Gay Republican, who is active on a daily basis within my local GOP and my community, I have never felt discriminated against by my fellow Republicans, or my neighbors. I have, on multiple occasions, felt very discriminated against by people with similar attitudes as yours, General Alfie. People from the left wing who absolutely hate me for my political affiliation, and feel my sexual orientation compounds that. One party has shown it is tollerable, the other has shown me that it will only tollerate me if I agree with it. The latter is the Democratic Party.
    Isn't gay marriage weird? I do not recall gays pushing for it back in the 1998-2004 timeframe, but it became an issue out of nowhere. I suspect that the GOP pulled it out as a favorite wedge issue.

    "Hate." That's such a strong word.

    For myself, I don't know that I truly, truly hate gay Republicans -- I think it's madness and I find it frustrating to comprehend. Perhaps I just don't understand them. I would however assert the my dislike and opposition to them probably has a lot less to do with the word "gay" than the "Republican" part, for I truly do have a lack of affection for your basic Pug, queer or not.

    As to your belief that you get more hassle from Dems than Pugs, I can only say, look at the record. The record looks better on our side. And I'd also bet that what your straight GOP friends say to you, say to your face, and what they do "to" you, via their anti-gay policies, are three very different things. But in the final analysis, this really is about what you think and how you feel, not what I think.

    Since 2001, Falwell and Robertson have both given large sums of money to the CONSTITUTION Party. That might dampen your argument that they are currently affiliated with the GOP. Although I'm aware of their history of involvement with the GOP, it was mostly unsuccessful fringe PAC work.
    "Dampen?" Doesn't even phase me. Fact is , these two gents are part and parcel of the Republican Party and they have, or had, been for years. Nor does it in any way affect my reply to seapuppy, who said he agreed with things the so-called "religious" right winger profess -- let's see if he agrees with the two haters' beliefs about gays.

  36. #36
    YourNickname
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.BiGuy View Post
    WTF does Fiscally Conservative even mean? Does it mean that they conserve money or what? From the way the Bush adminstration has handeld the nation's money, it seems to me that it's the opposite of what conserving something is.
    Conservative is not being used litterally in this instance. Fiscal Conservativism is just a modern day name for the traditional Government Spending principles: reduction of Government waste (something Bush is not doing), reduction of Government costs (something Bush is not doing), reduction of taxes (something Bush did do, but in a meek, ineffective way). This is where I disagree with the elected Republicans most, for Bush - and the majority of Republicans in Congress - have failed to deliver on these principles, and have actually done things much to the opposite. (Though Bush's Social Security reform attempt last year redeemed him, slightly).

    I'll be the first to admit that yes, I do beleive being a gay republican is a contridiction and just not computing with me. But I do want to point out that it's the liberals that majorly support gay rights and marriage, as well as most moderates.
    I can align myself with the party that promotes Social Liberalism, and agree with them on a handful of issues. Or, I can align myself with the party that promotes Conservative Government - even if they aren't currently practicing it!!!!! - and agree with them on virtually every other issue. Government sensibility - that the GOP promotes, even if they are failing miserably in their promises - pre-empts the half-dozen improvements in civil liberties the Democratic Party proposes, even if I agree with those improvements.

    How is the Republican part more tolerable of gay people anyway? Most republicans out there are so vocal against gays that it's hard to understand why someone whose gay would agree with them, much less make excuses about their bigotry.
    Actions speak louder than words. Some - and I emphasize some, since it is thanks to a great deal of elected Republicans in Congress that the Gay Marriage Amendment has continously failed, even though some other republicans are responsible for it in the first place - talk about immorality, how its unnatural, etc. etc. I don't mind that, it's their right to believe what they believe. But virtually every Democrat I encounter who discovers my affiliation and my orientation are either disgusted with me, or angry with me. Republicans who know are never anything but accepting.

  37. #37
    General_Alfie
    Guest

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by seapuppy View Post
    1. 2. Yes, EXACTLY like Falwell and Robertson. You get no argument from me on those guys. Thats why I posted what I did.
    Are you saying you agree with Falwell?

    3. Your totaly stretching the truth as to the difference between the two parties on "gay rights" and "working to limit my rights every day", and thats not an agreed upon definition. The only major gay rights issue on the national scene right now is gay marriage and if I recall, the last Democrat administration was as dead set against it as well as the last two Democrat candidates for President.
    Says who? Who says gay marraige is "the only gay rights issue?" Let me recall to your attention some of the Democrats/Clinton's pro-gay accomplishments and perhaps you can provide a list of GOP pro-gay ones, okay?

    ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF DEMS AND CLINTON 1992-2000

    Clinton Advocated for Hate Crimes Legislation: for the first time in history, it would give Federal prosecutors the power to prosecute hate crimes committed because of the victim's sexual orientation.

    Appointed the First –Ever Openly Gay United States Ambassador. On October 6, 1997 and again on January 6, 1999, the President nominated James C. Hormel to be U.S. Ambassador to Luxembourg. Although Mr. Hormel’s qualifications were never in question, and it was generally agreed that his nomination would have easily won a floor vote, a handful of conservative Senators blocked the nomination. Because of this, on June 4, 1999, President Clinton announced the recess appointment of James Hormel. This appointment makes Mr. Hormel the first-ever openly gay United States Ambassador.

    Ending Discrimination Against Gays and Lesbians in the Federal Civilian Workforce. President Clinton issued an Executive Order prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation in the Federal civilian workforce. orientation.

    Endorsing Legislation that Outlaws Discrimination in the Workplace. President Clinton said in his 1999 State of the Union Address, “I ask Congress to make the Employment Non-Discrimination Act… the law of the land.” President Clinton and Vice President Gore endorsed and continue to fight for passage of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, a bill outlawing discrimination in hiring, firing and promotions based on sexual orientation.

    Issuing the First-Ever Gay and Lesbian Pride Month Proclamation. In June 1999, President Clinton issued the first Gay and Lesbian Pride Month proclamation. This historic action marked, as the President said, “the Stonewall Uprising and the birth of the modern gay and lesbian civil rights movement.”

    Protecting Adoption Rights. President Clinton blocked Republican efforts to pass legislation prohibiting unmarried couples from jointly adopting children in the District of Columbia and legislation which would have denied certain Federal funds to localities with domestic partnership laws.

    Working to Stop Discrimination Against People With AIDS. President Clinton supports the Supreme Court’s decision in Bragdon v. Abbott, which reinforces the protections offered by the landmark Americans With Disabilities Act for Americans living with HIV and AIDS.

    Employment Protection: The President directed the Justice Department and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission to vigorously prosecute those who discriminate against people with AIDS, leading to actions against health care providers and facilities that violate the Americans with Disabilities Act.

    Helping Those Fleeing Persecution Because of Their Sexual Orientation. President Clinton’s Administration is the first ever to grant asylum for gays and lesbians facing persecution in other countries..

    Banning Insurance Discrimination. President Clinton fought for and signed the Kennedy-Kassebaum Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, which bans insurance discrimination against people with pre-existing medical conditions including HIV/AIDS. In addition, President Clinton issued a directive that ensures that all providers of Federal health insurance abide by non-discrimination rules including sexual orientation.

    Fighting Harassment of Students Based on Sexual Orientation. President Clinton’s Department of Education has issued landmark guidance that explains Federal standards against sexual harassment and that prohibits sexual harassment of all students regardless of their sexual orientation.

    Reaching Out to Gay Community: President Clinton named the first Presidential Liaison to the gay and lesbian community.. He also appointed the first openly gay senior policy adviser on civil rights issues.

    The First President and Vice President to Speak before Gay and Lesbian Organizations. In January 1999, President Clinton advocated for gay and lesbian issues in his State of the Union remarks, the first president ever to do so. On November 8, 1997, he also became the first sitting president to speak before a gay and lesbian organization when he delivered the keynote address to the Human Rights Campaign National Dinner.

    Protecting Medicaid and Social Security Coverage: Clinton fought for and won the preservation of the Medicaid guarantee of coverage which serves more than 50 percent of people living with AIDS.

    Dramatically Increasing Overall AIDS Funding.

    Increasing AIDS Drug Assistance and Accelerating AIDS Drug Approvals.
    The Administration issued a directive on September 30, 1993, that requires every Federal employee to receive comprehensive education on HIV/AIDS.

    Established a White House AIDS Office and Created a Presidential Advisory Council.

    Convened the First Ever White House Conference on HIV and AIDS.
    Impressive!! Let's see your Republican list.

  38. #38
    Northwest Prince
    Guest

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    i admit to be a proud democrat but to both sides i say we need better leaders. i beleave i could be 1 of those leaders if i wasn
    t wheelchair bound and could raise the money. i adnit idislike george and dick with a passion to those who are r's i have question how much longer can we stay the corse in a war that george started for no reason? as republocams what wold you do different to clean up george and dick mess?

  39. #39

    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    But virtually every Democrat I encounter who discovers my affiliation and my orientation are either disgusted with me, or angry with me. Republicans who know are never anything but accepting.
    Well I'm sorry you've been in those situations, but many liberals would agree with me when they say that they do not agree with the Log Cabin Republicans because of their lack to do anything within the GOP. They don't necessarly hate gay republicans, but we just don't understand why you would vote for them.

    Anyway I have'nt had any good encounters with Republicans. I almost got into a fight with one at a arts festival because I had my "Worst President Ever" shirt, not to mention I had a rainbow flag on it. He called me and I quote a "Sand nigger faggot bitch" and told me to go back to Iraq, porably because of my brown skin and dark hair. I'm not even Arabic and I so offended. Almost got into a brawl and the guy of course looked like a neo-nazi. Ever since then my tolerance for Republicans have dispersed and I'll never forget that shit ever.

    Yes I know republicans are'nt like that but I can't agree on anything with a conservative. Never.

  40. #40
    Neat Monster glo-unit's Avatar
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Most politicians suck regardless of what party they represent, few of them actually give a fuck about who they represent. However I am more liberal leaning so I am more likely to vote Democrat.
    "It's strange to have a creation out there, a deeply mutated version of yourself, running loose and screwing everything up. I wonder if this is how parents feel." Dexter Morgan

  41. #41
    On the Prowl jordyy's Avatar
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by james1200 View Post
    so in your eyes, instead of taking a small risk with an unknown like kerry, it's better to vote for someone you know for a fact starts wars based on lies and who has killed tens of thousands of people as a result, lets his personal religious beliefs guide foreign and domestic policy in direct violation of the constitution you republicans claim to worship, had increased domestic spending to record levels again in direct violation of every tenent that republicans have held for the last 100years (and that is even discounting military spending)...do i need to go on? i am so sick of hearing that at least bush believes in something!!! if i told you to get in a car with me so we could drive off a cliff together because god told me to do it and i believe that to be true you would have me commited and yet you willingly follow the coke sniffing drunk in the oval office...perhaps his brains have been fried by years of partying and he's hallucinating folks...time to wake up!

    and oh yeah...lest i forget, he thinks you are a second class citizen not entitled to the same rights as him cause you like dick.
    you'll have to forgive my delayed response. i forgot to subscribe to this thread and didn't check back. so, let's begin.

    1. I dont think he started a war based on lies. Misinformation, yes. It's not like Bush, on his own, suddenly decided that there were WMDs. He has HUNDREDS, if not thousands, of people whose sole job it is to find out if there are WMDs. There are many, many steps along the way to declaring a war, so apparently there must have been a few people who agreed with him, on BOTH sides.

    2. He didn't kill thousands of people, soldiers did. Democratic soldiers and Republican soldiers. Soldiers who, if they weren't prepared to die for their country, should not have enlisted.

    3.Um, yeah, you must have skipped the part where i said i WASN'T a republican. I don't know "every tenent that republicans have held for the last 100years," and i don't particularly care. Also, you might have it a bit backwards here; Democrats are the ones who worship the constitution. Ya know, civil rights and all that jazz? As in, the reason why people aren't allowed to kill us for being gay (you know, like they can in other countries?). So yeah, I am a fan of the constitution, but I attribute that to my Democratic beliefs.

    4. Most of this country thinks I am a second class citizen for being gay. It's just a fact of my life. Progress takes time. If you can't wait it out, go to another country.

    5. It's not a "small risk" to vote for someone without defined beliefs. Without defined beliefs, they can be swayed by anyone to do anything. Kerry NEVER came out in support of homosexuality. Maybe he secretly hates it and wants it completely gone, and would then enact laws were he elected. At least we KNOW Bush isn't a fan. But we also know there is not much he is willing to do about it.

    Finally, it's easy to talk shit without having to back it up. Yeah, Clinton was a good President overall, (my Favorite, actually, thus the support for Hillary Rodham Clinton) but he never had to face 9/11, or an economy in a slump. In fact, there is evidence that he did in fact receive information about possible al quaeda attacks and did nothing. So, maybe the dems taking over office will be an amazing turnaround. Or maybe, in 5 years, we will be having a similar discussion with the tables turned.
    :thewaveeath is the road to Awe:thewave:

  42. #42
    On the Prowl jordyy's Avatar
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by General_Alfie View Post
    Un-Huh. Oh, I'll just bet my life that you're for Hillary. And you think Kerry's a pansy, and you think Bush is a badass. And you "lean" Democratic, too, huh? Gosh. "Must be one of them exaggerations," as Bush once slurred.

    You call John Kerry a "pansy," which is amusing, considering Kerry's service in Vietnam and his awards. You call Bush a "badass." Um, and where on earth was Bush during his desertership? And how much cocaine was he doing? And who got him out of serving in Vietnam and out of military prison for deserting from the Air National Guard?

    You chose a butcher instead of a baker. Look at the damage that freak of nature has caused! I reject your claim that Kerry "had no clear ideas." Health care for all, modernizing our government, ending the war in Iraq, fighting the war on terrorists with everything we have, canceling Bush's tax welfare for the wealthy and restoring sanity to the budget, increasing the size of the military. These are ALL GREAT IDEAS. That you didn't see them tells me that you weren't looking, but most Republicans don't really care about the facts, they just want to win. You won, America lost. Congratulations.
    as for you, general alfie:

    1. Yeah. I am for Hillary. I honestly couldn't care less if you believed me. That's not the point of this thread; I was just providing background information to give context to my opinions. Because, well, that's what educated people do. If you don't know my background, you don't know what my views mean.

    2. Bush/Badass, Kerry/Pansy. If Kerry panders to everyone, then clearly he just wants popularity. A good president should not strive for popularity; he should become popular for his actions. Yes, Bush failed, and is thus not popular. But at least he was trying for himself and not for the popularity of the people. To me, a badass is not someone who fights in a war. A badass is someone who is willing to go against the grain. You can't deny he did.

    3. Who gives a shit if he did cocine in his youth? what, you have never made a mistake? i guess yours wasn't in the news so it's not as bad? god, get over yourself.

    4. A Baker cannot lead a country. Period. (And Hillary is SO the butcher and not the baker)

    5."Health care for all, modernizing our government, ending the war in Iraq, fighting the war on terrorists with everything we have, canceling Bush's tax welfare for the wealthy and restoring sanity to the budget, increasing the size of the military. These are ALL GREAT IDEAS." Yeah, they are. But they are yours, not his. You think I wasn't informed? I went into that election with every intention of voting for Kerry. I would tell everyone that they should consider voting for him. But as time passed, as debates came and went, he NEVER said anything. He tried so fucking hard to remain neutral that his balls must have shrivelled and fallen off. And ending the war in Iraq? HA! Easy to say. Everyone wanted to end it, including Bush himself. But did Kerry actually lay out a plan? no. he called for Bush to do so, but he never came up with his own. All he wanted to do was be the Anti-Bush. I want my President to stand for more than that.

    6. God I'm tired of writing about this. We aren't even on opposite sides but you so desperately want to fight and belittle me. You want to think I am an uninformed idiot. I'm not. I'm smart. I'm informed. And I made a choice. No one is ever liberal enough for the liberals; no one is ever conservative enough for the conservatives. Truth is, neither extreme is correct. The path is going to be somewhere in the middle. So stop hating everybody and do something productive. Find solutions for everyone, solutions that can be agreed upon as a middle ground. The whole point of living in this country is finding a middle ground for ALL to be happy. I'm happy that I'm in a state of mind where i can say that I am going to be making a choice in two years. You won't be making a choice. You already decided, and you don't even know the contenders. Maybe I won't end up voting for Hillary in the end. But at least I will have CHOSEN not to, unlike many other people.
    :thewaveeath is the road to Awe:thewave:

  43. #43
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Republican vs. Democrat

    Damn JordyY! Don't get so pissed because that is all alpo thrives on...it is his intention.

    However the point are well made.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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