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View Poll Results: Are Americans Fascist-Loving cowards, as Rumsfeld has stated?

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66. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes

    20 30.30%
  • no

    46 69.70%
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  1. #1
    General_Alfie
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    (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Seems Donnie Rumsfeld hates America:


    Rumsfeld Lashes Out at Bush's Critics
    By ROBERT BURNS
    The Associated Press
    Tuesday, August 29, 2006; 2:19 PM

    SALT LAKE CITY, Utah -- Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Tuesday the world faces "a new type of fascism" and likened critics of the Bush administration's war strategy to those who tried to appease the Nazis in the 1930s.

    In unusually explicit terms, Rumsfeld portrayed the administration's critics as suffering from "moral or intellectual confusion" about what threatens the nation's security. His remarks amounted to one of his most pointed defenses of President Bush' war policies and was among his toughest attacks on Bush's critics.

    Speaking to several thousand veterans at the American Legion's national convention, Rumsfeld recited what he called the lessons of history, including the failure to confront Hitler. He quoted Winston Churchill as observing that trying to accommodate Hitler was "a bit like feeding a crocodile, hoping it would eat you last."

    "I recount this history because once again we face similar challenges in efforts to confront the rising threat of a new type of fascism," he said.

    "Can we truly afford to believe that somehow, some way, vicious extremists can be appeased?" he asked
    .

    "Can we truly afford to return to the destructive view that America _ not the enemy _ is the real source of the world's troubles?"

    Rumsfeld spoke to the American Legion as part of a coordinated White House strategy, in advance of the fifth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, to take the offensive against administration critics at a time of doubt about the future of Iraq and growing calls to withdraw U.S. troops.

    Rumsfeld recalled a string of recent terrorist attacks, from 9/11 to deadly bombings in Bali, London and Madrid, and said it should be obvious to anyone that terrorists must be confronted, not appeased.

    "But some seem not to have learned history's lessons," he said, adding that part of the problem is that the American news media have tended to emphasize the negative rather than the positive.

    He said, for example, that more media attention was given to U.S. soldiers' abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib than to the fact that Sgt. 1st Class Paul Ray Smith received the Medal of Honor.

    He did acknowledge that the U.S. military has its own "bad actors _ the ones who dominate the headlines today _ who don't live up to the standards of the oath and of our country." But he added that they are a small percentage of the hundreds of thousands of troops who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    "Those who know the truth need to speak out against these kinds of myths and lies and distortions being told about our troops and about our country," he said.


    [...]

    Strong Words.

    I cannot recall any cabinet member impugning the moral character and courage of the American people quite this way, can you?

    As my Dad used to say, "consider the source." While Scummy Rummy is biddy Hating America instead of biddy winning Bush's multiple wars, America has come to some clear conclusions about Rumsfeld, Bush, and the Republican track record:


    o Two-thirds of Americans think Bush has failed in Iraq
    o Two-thirds believe the Bush admin has NO PLAN for winning the war
    o Less than 20% of those polled have confidence in Rumsfeld's competence
    o Nearly 70% think America is "headed in the wrong direction."


    The Bush crowd, dwindled down to a few hardcore neocons and spittle-droolers like Rumsfeld, recoil when Bush's policies are compared to Hitler's -- they HATE it; sadly, they sure like to use it when it serves their advantage. Do you think Americans are cowards? Do you think Rumsfeld should be admonished for his attacks on America?

  2. #2
    ds_writr
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    "His remarks amounted to one of his most pointed defenses of President Bush' war policies ..."

    Well, wouldn't that be obvious since they're his own war policies? I mean, no one believes that Bush had war policies to bring to the table.

    What I find to be missing is the "to whom is he referring" when it comes to Fascist?

    Is it a vague reference to the "Islamofascists" ? If so, is this so much about the Iraq war as it is about Iran?

    It just seems to me to be another one of those blurring of a hundred issues into one big (blurry) issue.

    I think if one reads the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran

    http://justusboys.com/forum/showthre...ighlight=islam
    (post 7)
    you can perhaps see that they have a chartered "mission" which is pretty plain.

    But the Afghan and Iraq war prompting this Rumsfeldian balking?

    Their main mission since Reagan's administration has been to topple the Islamic Republic of IRAN.

    If anything, the Bush administration harmed that "cause" or plan by blurring so many other factors into the equation.

    One thing about WWII, the FDRs and Churchills made it pretty plain what it was everyone was fighting about and for (although that was a war with many backstories and uncomfortable bedfellows, as well).

    But few people asked, "What are we fighting for?" Or "What is this all about?"

    Even back in grandpa's day, the unwashed masses could put some sort of purpose to the global madness.

    But today? This administration has failed to be transparent enough to rally the world because they haven't been forthright in who their enemy is.

    And any country is allowed to have an enemy, I suppose.

    Its just that, well, if it were 1942, don't call all of Asia our enemy when you really mean Japan. And don't war with Siam just in order to get a more strategic location to aim at Japan.

    Somewhere along the way, even then they would have lost supporters of what was a genuine war against us.

    So to answer your Poll, I'd say, of course not.

    But we may have two enemies who are purposing confusing Americans: one being outside but the other inside our borders.

  3. #3
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Short answer?

    No.

    Just those who continue to support Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld.

    My opinion.

    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

  4. #4
    Ginge
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    I gather he's not running for the presidency?

  5. #5

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Apparently, "stay the course" and "cut and run" and and "adapt to win" weren't working. Now Americans who oppose the war are appeasing fascism. I think Rove is running out of steam.

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    This is the pot calling the kettle black! As for as I'm concerned, Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld are the fascist.

  7. #7
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    What gall! What unmitigated gall!!!!

    This loser calling us stupid when every plan he's authored has failed. This loser calling us stupid when every prediction he made has proven to be wrong.

    This guy shouldn't only be fired for incompetence, he should be prosecuted for criminal stupidity in time of war.

    History will not be kind to this moron ..... it's just too bad that the sonofabitch is too fucking old to still be alive when it's written.

  8. #8

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Its a republican myth that those who don't agree with them hate america and believe the U.S. is the single cause of the worlds problems. The war in Iraq has many critics, some with medals on their chests, and virtually none of them believe the view that Rummy would foist upon them. I guess if your him its better to attack views you assign your critics than to defend your own sorry actions.

    I also think the Hitler appeasemant analogy is not really accurate. After invading Czechoslovakia Hitler was not confronted and the result was tragic but he ran a country and had an army which means you confront him with your army if you wish to stop him. Terrorists don't have an army but we choose to respond with one anyway.

    Rummy mentions London, Madrid and Bali and uses it as proof that we must confront the terrorists and not appease them. Good enough. But he doesn't mention the foiled London plane plot from a couple of weeks ago. The reason he doesn't mention it is that it doesn't fit the world view he's pushing. First off they were not appeased as if they were they would have been allowed to continue with their plot. Second the plot was ended not with military force which is the Rummy way but with police work which the Bush administration has said is not the way to fight this "war".....Police work was how Clinton fought this war and the Bush people don't do anything the Clinton way.

    The thing that Rummy can't admit is that stopping terrorist plots IS the work of the police and not the army. I know that means his role in the "war" would be greatly reduced but thats the way it is.

    Who could have known he came into office looking for Mr. Demille waiting for his close-up.

  9. #9
    General_Alfie
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by smelter44 View Post
    What gall! What unmitigated gall!!!!

    This loser calling us stupid when every plan he's authored has failed. This loser calling us stupid when every prediction he made has proven to be wrong.
    You know, prior to this sneak attack on America by Rumsfeld, I thought no one could hate America more than Ann Coulter; Clearly, I was wrong.

    As you say, smelter, he's a lot like Coward Bush #2: everything these saps touch turns to shit. I mean, we are talking Major League/Big Time incompetence at the very highest levels of US government here -- Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld: what do they all have in common? Well, aside from a weakness for floor-length "fancy dress" burkas and stylish Prada pumps, they are all complete ninnies, all are world-class fuckups.

    This guy shouldn't only be fired for incompetence, he should be prosecuted for criminal stupidity in time of war.
    I was thinking war crimes trials, frankly. I mean, if stupidity were a legal threshold for indicting government officials, who would be left running this corrupt government? Of course, Congress could nip all of this in the bud, but not this cowardly and complicit Republican congress -- another reason to vote straight Dem in November.

    Quote Originally Posted by iman View Post
    Apparently, "stay the course" and "cut and run" and and "adapt to win" weren't working. Now Americans who oppose the war are appeasing fascism. I think Rove is running out of steam.
    Yeah, they need to get him a new super-sized butt plug -- he's leaking, it seems.

    You're referring to Ken Mehlman's (Queer Chair, GOP National Socialist committee) comments, "adapt to win" being the modified version of "stay the course," I presume. Yeah, that'll do it -- that'll win the war. Is it me alone that finds it, well, "queer" that a thissy like Kloset Ken is out there on the Sunday chatterbot shows, lisping forth her ideas for military strategy? I mean, why not just go whole hog and hire Jeff "Annie Git Your Gun" Gannon as Sec Def? At least she got well paid for laying on her tummy, taking it up the pooper for Old Glory. I bet no one bothered to thank her for her service...







  10. #10
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Perhaps I missed it. I didn't see the Secretary of Defense call any Americans Fascist loving cowards. Is there a quote missing or just more theatrics?

  11. #11
    General_Alfie
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Perhaps I missed it. I didn't see the Secretary of Defense call any Americans Fascist loving cowards. Is there a quote missing or just more theatrics?
    Um, that's the thread title dontchaknow.

    Did you read the transcript? I read most of it -- had to put it down because all I could think of is how much bin-Laden must really love and cherish Rumsfeld and Bush -- after all, without bin-Bush and bin-Rummy, "9/11" would have been foiled, Iraq wouldn't have been invaded, and America wouldn't have a Taliban-supported presidency. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if bin-Laden himself made the maximum $2,000 contribution to Bush's re-election campaign.

    As we all know, jack, Tokyo Rose Rumsfeld doesn't have the political balls to tell the whole truth and he doesn't have the moral stamina to tell even part of it, so he, like that other coward, Bush, use "straw men" arguments, the tactics of cowards everywhere and for all time.

    Further, Sir, Scummy Rummy is also a pathological "I NEVER SAID THAT" liar. Let me give you an example. On 03 Aug 06, Rumsfeld was forced to testify in the US Senate regarding the failed Iraq war, a war he, Bush, and probably bin-Laden planned. Senator Clinton gave Rumsfled a verbal love-tap, and Rummy lied:



    CLINTON: Well, Mr. Secretary, I know you would and I know you feel strongly about it, but there’s a track record here. This is not 2002, 2003, 2004-5, when you appeared before this committee and made many comments and presented, you know, many assurances that have frankly proven to be unfulfilled, and –

    RUMSFELD: Senator, I don’t think that’s true. I have never painted a rosy picture. I have been very measured in my words, and you’d have a dickens of a time trying to find instances where I have been excessively optimistic. I understand this is tough stuff.
    Sigh. War criminals like Rummy would save their scalp by using honey, not lies. After all, as Clinton's office disclosed, Tokyo Rose Rummy said plenty of so-called "rosy" things:


    Dec. 18, 2002: KING: What’s the current situation in Afghanistan?

    RUMSFELD: It is encouraging. They have elected a government through the Loya Jirga process. The Taliban are gone. The al Qaeda are gone.

    Feb. 7, 2003: “It is unknowable how long that conflict [the war in Iraq] will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months.”

    Feb. 20 2003: “‘Do you expect the invasion, if it comes, to be welcomed by the majority of the civilian population of Iraq?’ Jim Lehrer asked the defense secretary on PBS’ The News Hour. ‘There is no question but that they would be welcomed,’ Rumsfeld replied, referring to American forces.”

    Mar. 30, 2003: “It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.”
    He's just another "Blame America First, Fast, and Always" Republican...

  12. #12
    HazeMaster
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Rummy has gone over the edge

    Hearing Hillary tell him he should resign when he testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee must have completely freaked him out

    BTW: Welcum back Alfie. I missed you.

  13. #13
    holland
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    lots of people in usa seem like dimwit cowards gullible and afraid to learn the truth-maybe 30 to 70%

  14. #14

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    It bothers me greatly that the administration are using soldiers by saying any opposition to current policy is an attack on the soldiers as well.

  15. #15

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by ryankeith View Post
    It bothers me greatly that the administration are using soldiers by saying any opposition to current policy is an attack on the soldiers as well.
    It's a pathetic ploy to silence dissent and undermine the Constitution and principles of the United States that, ironically, for which those soldiers risk their lives to protect. They aren't intended to risk their lives to be a party's domestic propaganda tools or nationally guard a foreign state.

    It is important to note that the administration has come to terms with the fact that the neoconservative Bush Doctrine has failed and that Iraq was a mistake. The problems are that they do not want it to become a failure because they realize now what it is they are fighting, not a nation or person or a symbol, but an idea. As V put it, "Behind this mask is more than flesh. Behind this mask is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bullet-proof."

    That would explain, if his contemporary Ms. Thatcher was correct, why Reagan fought and won against the idea of Communism without firing a shot while Vietnam was a protracted, inevitable failure.

  16. #16
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    ^ I agree. The only question remaining is how many more young, ideological soldiers do we need to sacrifice in order to continue this flawed military solution of theirs?

    Of course, these kids did volunteer to serve. They made the mistake of believing that their Commanders would only commit them to winnable wars. And for that mistake they must pay with their lives and limbs while the rest of us sit and watch, like this is some kind of bizarre reality TV show. Heaven forbid that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice must admit they fucked up ...... we certainly can't expect them to sacrifice their places in history because of some minor miscalculations ..... can we?

  17. #17
    ds_writr
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/....ap/index.html


    ^ Here is an article which appears to day that focuses on the terminology used by the Bush administration.

    excerpt:
    Dennis Ross, a Mideast adviser to both the first Bush and Clinton administrations and now the director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said he would have chosen different words.
    "The `war on terror' has always been a misnomer, because terrorism is an instrument, it's not an ideology. So I would always have preferred it to be called the `war with radical Islam,' not with Islam but with `radical Islam,"' Ross said.

    Why even mention the religion? "Because that's who they are," Ross said.


    Is Islamofascist really a political term? I knows its intended to be an ideological term, but is it perhaps too extreme? But can a label be too extreme regarding extremists (if indeed the Bush machine is only intending it to be an alternative to always saying "terrorist")?

    Or is it blatant Propaganda which, (as we all discussed in the propaganda thead , The Matter of Propagnada)

    http://justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111456

    utilizes certain buzz words, broad brushstrokes and tries to get a visceral, emotional response from the crowd?



  18. #18

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Islamofacist seems like a legitimate term, the merging of an anti liberal authoritarianism with the religion of Islam. However, it is a term coined recently by a group (conservatives) with a political agenda and it does nothing to clarify the situation. Islamofacist is a vague epithet used only to describe an enemy. Are Palestinians islamofacists, or Saddam Hussein? The Saudis or Egyptians? How is it useful if only muddies the waters?

    The word links an unpopular religion (in the West) with a WWII term of derision. It is useful only to demonize and dehumanize the "enemy". The word just over simplifies the entire problem - just as good propaganda should.

  19. #19
    Effortless_Pro
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Did Rhumsfield actually say "dickens"?

  20. #20

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Unfortunately as election day draws nearer we are going to be bombarded with even more convoluted rhetoric in a lame effort to bolster the GOP and promote the continuance of the murders in Iraq.
    I can almost hear John Phillip Sousa playing in the background.
    Hopefully the Dems and others will contradict and challenge every allegation and lie that the greatest propaganda machine in history spews out.

  21. #21

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    I find it ironic that Rummy is calling the ciritcs fascists. If there are fasicists in this country, it's coming from the fools in the White House, with their militaristic views and carelessness for the people.

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by ds_writr View Post
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/....ap/index.html


    ^ Here is an article which appears to day that focuses on the terminology used by the Bush administration.

    excerpt:
    Dennis Ross, a Mideast adviser to both the first Bush and Clinton administrations and now the director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said he would have chosen different words.
    "The `war on terror' has always been a misnomer, because terrorism is an instrument, it's not an ideology. So I would always have preferred it to be called the `war with radical Islam,' not with Islam but with `radical Islam,"' Ross said.

    Why even mention the religion? "Because that's who they are," Ross said.


    Is Islamofascist really a political term? I knows its intended to be an ideological term, but is it perhaps too extreme? But can a label be too extreme regarding extremists (if indeed the Bush machine is only intending it to be an alternative to always saying "terrorist")?

    Or is it blatant Propaganda which, (as we all discussed in the propaganda thead , The Matter of Propagnada)

    http://justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111456

    utilizes certain buzz words, broad brushstrokes and tries to get a visceral, emotional response from the crowd?

    Oooooh, Oooooh...*waving my hand in the air*....I choose the latter part of your thread as the answer!

    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

  23. #23
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    OK - so seems to me like everyone is burying Rummy - not shocking

    And I will agree that he has not gotten the job done as civilian commander of our armed forces - not a "good job" in Iraq with miscalculations on the civilian response, troops required after the fall of Baghdad, etc - long list of bad moves.

    HOWEVER . . . . . .

    A couple of things Rummy said that DO make sense

    1) Negotiating with terrorists is akin to appeasing Hitler - weakness = danger. I agree. Better to wipe Hezbollah out IMO

    2) Love the line (from Churchill) "trying to accomodate Hitler is like feeding a crocodile, hoping it would eat you last" - funny and accurate

    3) The self loathing in this country is outrageous - the idea that we (the U.S.) is the real source of the world's troubles - I agree with Rummy on this. We represent what is good - sure you'll say corny and misguided - so be it. America is fuckin' GREAT country. That's why everyone wants to come here.

    4) The media makes a cause celeb out of Abu Ghraib but ignores war hero stories - TRUE TRUE TRUE - just read the paper - not balanced

    So, criticize Rummy all u want for his actions as "go to" for the Iraq situation. But he makes many good points. Don't confuse the 2

  24. #24

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    A couple of things Rummy said that DO make sense

    1) Negotiating with terrorists is akin to appeasing Hitler - weakness = danger. I agree. Better to wipe Hezbollah out IMO
    First, what Hitler is and what terrorism is are not synonymous. The basis for the terrorism, this "Islamofascism," is not the same as Hitler or Nazi Germany either. They aren't the same type of targets and cannot be fought the same way. Second, what does Hezbollah have to do with it? Rumsfeld declared war on them now too?

    2) Love the line (from Churchill) "trying to accomodate Hitler is like feeding a crocodile, hoping it would eat you last" - funny and accurate
    Yay for Rumsfeld, he can steal quotes well in a failed attempt to equate his failed job with the only war most Americans consider "good," not that there is such a thing as a good war or a bad peace (disagree with that then disagree with Ben Franklin).

    3) The self loathing in this country is outrageous - the idea that we (the U.S.) is the real source of the world's troubles - I agree with Rummy on this. We represent what is good - sure you'll say corny and misguided - so be it. America is fuckin' GREAT country. That's why everyone wants to come here.
    Your stance is biased and relative, not as absolute as you or I may wish, and I think it may be ill-researched. The most pressing thing I disagree with is the broad generalization that "everyone wants to come here."

    4) The media makes a cause celeb out of Abu Ghraib but ignores war hero stories - TRUE TRUE TRUE - just read the paper - not balanced
    And so? The media is free and reports what it wants; it is no surprise they report on the greatest controversy for ratings and such---it is true for all news, be it local to world. What keeps the administration, Congress, or the RNC from reporting on it themselves? The media filter is not the only way to get news out there. This is a "cry foul" that has always sounded like children on a playground as opposed to responsible leaders of a "fuckin' GREAT country."

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by ICO7 View Post
    First, what Hitler is and what terrorism is are not synonymous. The basis for the terrorism, this "Islamofascism," is not the same as Hitler or Nazi Germany either. They aren't the same type of targets and cannot be fought the same way. Second, what does Hezbollah have to do with it? Rumsfeld declared war on them now too?

    Yay for Rumsfeld, he can steal quotes well in a failed attempt to equate his failed job with the only war most Americans consider "good," not that there is such a thing as a good war or a bad peace (disagree with that then disagree with Ben Franklin).

    Your stance is biased and relative, not as absolute as you or I may wish, and I think it may be ill-researched. The most pressing thing I disagree with is the broad generalization that "everyone wants to come here."

    And so? The media is free and reports what it wants; it is no surprise they report on the greatest controversy for ratings and such---it is true for all news, be it local to world. What keeps the administration, Congress, or the RNC from reporting on it themselves? The media filter is not the only way to get news out there. This is a "cry foul" that has always sounded like children on a playground as opposed to responsible leaders of a "fuckin' GREAT country."
    I'll take them one by one

    Hitler was dangerous - innocent people killed. Terrorists kill innocents. Split hairs all you want. Both were/are dangerous and need to be addressed in a strong way - not appeasement for Hitler, not "how can we help you" to Hezbollah and their terrorist friends. Neither has regard for human life

    I think the crocodile line is funny - and true - and it fits

    Lots of grey in the world - for sure. Black & white does apply. America holds the high moral ground. Sure, mistakes are made - in judgement of admins - and the actions of individuals. But our system of democracy, our checks and balances - nothing like it. And ask those in California and Texas and Arizona about everyone not wanting to come here.

    Yup - the media is free to report. And they choose over and over to report selectively - why? because they are biased. Abu Ghraib was treated like dropping the bomb on Hiroshima. Why? cause bashing the admin is sport for these editors - that's all. Let them write what they want. But I see it for what it is. It's like this board. Any opportunity to bash Bush, his admin, the U.S. Govt, whatever - any conspiracy theory, etc. Sure, write it. Doesn't make it true.

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Well we've elected a president who's held onto power via an un precidented ammount of fear mongering so I guess I'd say yes
    Knowing is half the battle.

  27. #27

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Hitler was dangerous - innocent people killed. Terrorists kill innocents. Split hairs all you want. Both were/are dangerous and need to be addressed in a strong way - not appeasement for Hitler, not "how can we help you" to Hezbollah and their terrorist friends. Neither has regard for human life
    Not allowing equivocation is not splitting hairs. The comparison is weak and flawed and desperate. Too often this administration has tried to compare itself to FDR and Saddam to Hitler---it's pathetic and totally not true. Quoting Churchill isn't going to make this administration right, neither is calling most Americans what this thread title claims... although I don't believe that is true either.

    I think the crocodile line is funny - and true - and it fits
    Yeah, it fits for Nazi Germany as it was attempting to swallow up all of Europe into its maw. It is not applicable at all to the Middle East.

    Lots of grey in the world - for sure. Black & white does apply. America holds the high moral ground. Sure, mistakes are made - in judgement of admins - and the actions of individuals. But our system of democracy, our checks and balances - nothing like it. And ask those in California and Texas and Arizona about everyone not wanting to come here.
    I question how you anyone that is aware of this administration's stance on torture can ever claim we hold the high moral ground. You are prompting a severe backlash by the pedestal you attempt to place this nation. Everyone isn't trying to get into California and Texas and Arizona unless you think all the rest of the world lives in Mexico. How's Ellis handling all those Europeans flocking over? They are flocking too, right? They must be, since everyone wants to be here.

    Yup - the media is free to report. And they choose over and over to report selectively - why? because they are biased. Abu Ghraib was treated like dropping the bomb on Hiroshima. Why? cause bashing the admin is sport for these editors - that's all. Let them write what they want. But I see it for what it is. It's like this board. Any opportunity to bash Bush, his admin, the U.S. Govt, whatever - any conspiracy theory, etc. Sure, write it. Doesn't make it true.
    Speaking of conspiracies, your perception of the media is based on one.

  28. #28
    grizzled
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    This was Keith Olbermann's comments on Rumsfeld ...... it's a long article but well worth the read:


    Aug. 30, 2006 | 8:34 p.m. ET
    Feeling morally, intellectually confused?

    The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.

    Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.

    Mr. Rumsfeld’s remarkable speech to the American Legion yesterday demands the deep analysis—and the sober contemplation—of every American. For it did not merely serve to impugn the morality or intelligence -- indeed, the loyalty -- of the majority of Americans who oppose the transient occupants of the highest offices in the land. Worse, still, it credits those same transient occupants -- our employees -- with a total omniscience; a total omniscience which neither common sense, nor this administration’s track record at home or abroad, suggests they deserve.

    Dissent and disagreement with government is the life’s blood of human freedom; and not merely because it is the first roadblock against the kind of tyranny the men Mr. Rumsfeld likes to think of as “his” troops still fight, this very evening, in Iraq.

    It is also essential. Because just every once in awhile it is right and the power to which it speaks, is wrong. In a small irony, however, Mr. Rumsfeld’s speechwriter was adroit in invoking the memory of the appeasement of the Nazis. For in their time, there was another government faced with true peril—with a growing evil—powerful and remorseless.

    That government, like Mr. Rumsfeld’s, had a monopoly on all the facts. It, too, had the “secret information.” It alone had the true picture of the threat. It too dismissed and insulted its critics in terms like Mr. Rumsfeld’s -- questioning their intellect and their morality.

    That government was England’s, in the 1930’s.

    It knew Hitler posed no true threat to Europe, let alone England.
    It knew Germany was not re-arming, in violation of all treaties and accords.
    It knew that the hard evidence it received, which contradicted its own policies, its own conclusions — its own omniscience -- needed to be dismissed.

    The English government of Neville Chamberlain already knew the truth.
    Most relevant of all — it “knew” that its staunchest critics needed to be marginalized and isolated. In fact, it portrayed the foremost of them as a blood-thirsty war-monger who was, if not truly senile, at best morally or intellectually confused.

    That critic’s name was Winston Churchill.

    Sadly, we have no Winston Churchills evident among us this evening. We have only Donald Rumsfelds, demonizing disagreement, the way Neville Chamberlain demonized Winston Churchill. History — and 163 million pounds of Luftwaffe bombs over England — have taught us that all Mr. Chamberlain had was his certainty — and his own confusion. A confusion that suggested that the office can not only make the man, but that the office can also make the facts.

    Thus, did Mr. Rumsfeld make an apt historical analogy.

    Excepting the fact, that he has the battery plugged in backwards. His government, absolute -- and exclusive -- in its knowledge, is not the modern version of the one which stood up to the Nazis. It is the modern version of the government of Neville Chamberlain.

    But back to today’s Omniscient ones.

    That, about which Mr. Rumsfeld is confused is simply this: This is a Democracy. Still. Sometimes just barely. And, as such, all voices count -- not just his. Had he or his president perhaps proven any of their prior claims of omniscience — about Osama Bin Laden’s plans five years ago, about Saddam Hussein’s weapons four years ago, about Hurricane Katrina’s impact one year ago — we all might be able to swallow hard, and accept their “omniscience” as a bearable, even useful recipe, of fact, plus ego.

    But, to date, this government has proved little besides its own arrogance, and its own hubris.

    Mr. Rumsfeld is also personally confused, morally or intellectually, about his own standing in this matter. From Iraq to Katrina, to the entire “Fog of Fear” which continues to envelop this nation, he, Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, and their cronies have — inadvertently or intentionally — profited and benefited, both personally, and politically. And yet he can stand up, in public, and question the morality and the intellect of those of us who dare ask just for the receipt for the Emporer’s New Clothes?

    In what country was Mr. Rumsfeld raised? As a child, of whose heroism did he read? On what side of the battle for freedom did he dream one day to fight? With what country has he confused the United States of America?

    The confusion we -- as its citizens— must now address, is stark and forbidding. But variations of it have faced our forefathers, when men like Nixon and McCarthy and Curtis LeMay have darkened our skies and obscured our flag. Note -- with hope in your heart — that those earlier Americans always found their way to the light, and we can, too.

    The confusion is about whether this Secretary of Defense, and this administration, are in fact now accomplishing what they claim the terrorists seek: The destruction of our freedoms, the very ones for which the same veterans Mr. Rumsfeld addressed yesterday in Salt Lake City, so valiantly fought.

    And about Mr. Rumsfeld’s other main assertion, that this country faces a “new type of fascism.”

    As he was correct to remind us how a government that knew everything could get everything wrong, so too was he right when he said that -- though probably not in the way he thought he meant it. This country faces a new type of fascism - indeed. Although I presumptuously use his sign-off each night, in feeble tribute, I have utterly no claim to the words of the exemplary journalist Edward R. Murrow.

    But never in the trial of a thousand years of writing could I come close to matching how he phrased a warning to an earlier generation of us, at a time when other politicians thought they (and they alone) knew everything, and branded those who disagreed: “confused” or “immoral.”

    Thus, forgive me, for reading Murrow, in full:
    “We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty,” he said, in 1954. “We must remember always that accusation is not proof, and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law.

    “We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular.”

    And so good night, and good luck.

  29. #29

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    OK - so seems to me like everyone is burying Rummy - not shocking

    And I will agree that he has not gotten the job done as civilian commander of our armed forces - not a "good job" in Iraq with miscalculations on the civilian response, troops required after the fall of Baghdad, etc - long list of bad moves.

    HOWEVER . . . . . .

    A couple of things Rummy said that DO make sense

    1) Negotiating with terrorists is akin to appeasing Hitler - weakness = danger. I agree. Better to wipe Hezbollah out IMO

    2) Love the line (from Churchill) "trying to accomodate Hitler is like feeding a crocodile, hoping it would eat you last" - funny and accurate

    3) The self loathing in this country is outrageous - the idea that we (the U.S.) is the real source of the world's troubles - I agree with Rummy on this. We represent what is good - sure you'll say corny and misguided - so be it. America is fuckin' GREAT country. That's why everyone wants to come here.

    4) The media makes a cause celeb out of Abu Ghraib but ignores war hero stories - TRUE TRUE TRUE - just read the paper - not balanced

    So, criticize Rummy all u want for his actions as "go to" for the Iraq situation. But he makes many good points. Don't confuse the 2
    Chance I'll take them 1 by 1 too.

    1. Who is talking about negotiating with terrorists? We don't have anything to do with hezbollah and Israel isn't about to negotiate with them either so exactly who is Rummy referring to? And its fine that we can all agree that hezbollah should be eliminated but its a bloody business and no one actually wants to do it....and that includes Israel.

    2. Good line. Although I think a more accurate Churchill quote for Rummy would be "when you're going through hell, keep going."

    3. Again I'd have to ask what self loathing americans he is talking about. Do you know any cause I sure don't. There are americans who are more willing to admit their countries mistakes than Rummy is but then thats not a high hurdle.

    4. True enough but I'd ask you is that a reflection on how the media reports news, including local news (if it bleeds it leads) or a reflection on how the media feels about their country?

    Rummy thinks some of us don't understand the threat, some of us don't think Rummy understands how wars are won.

  30. #30

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Rumsfelds' latest comments are nothing more than a continuation of Karl Rove's directions of how to hang on to public opinion. They're obviously desperate! Not long ago they implied Americans were unpatriotic if they had the guts to question their motives with invading Iraq. Now their fascists? Truly the spin of a desperate administration. I admit that many Americans are misinformed and easily manipulated (remember the headlines in the British newspaper after Bushs' re-election in ,04? "How can 58 million people be so stupid?") The Republicans had a better line of b.s. than the Dems in 04. It doesn't mean Americans are stupid. I just wish they would start thinking for themselves instead of letting the media and organized religion tell them how to live their lives. You have some scary people running your country, America. If you care about your country, return control of the government to the Democrats and IMPEACH that fundamentalist, religious nut case!

  31. #31
    General_Alfie
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    OK - so seems to me like everyone is burying Rummy - not shocking
    No, it isn't shocking, considering Republican Senators Lieberman, Hagel and Graham, as well as several Republican members of Congress, Rep. Jo Ann Davis (R-VA) being the latest. What can one think, what is one to say when over a DOZEN retired flag officers -- many of them Republicans -- come forward to say that for the good of the nation, Rumsfeld must go? After all, these aren't Democrats, these aren't anti-war people, these are the lifeblood of the GOP. Gosh.

    And I will agree that he has not gotten the job done as civilian commander of our armed forces - not a "good job" in Iraq with miscalculations on the civilian response, troops required after the fall of Baghdad, etc - long list of bad moves.
    Not good? How's "utterly failed" sound? After all, how many American troops were killed because of his blunders, his "thousands of tactical errors," as Sec. Rice said?

    Maybe you say, "Fuck 'em" -- maybe, to you, American soldiers are just disposable items, toys to play "war" with, little toy soldiers to "wipe out Hezbollah," but these men and women are our own people -- they are NOT toys for war lovers who are just to scared, too cowardly to fight their freakish wars by themselves. You see, death is forever, chance1 -- this isn't some neocon masturbation session, even if that's how Bush and his circus freaks have "managed" the war. But I would respect your right to degrade our war dead, even if I bitterly, bitterly disagree.

    1) Negotiating with terrorists is akin to appeasing Hitler - weakness = danger. I agree. Better to wipe Hezbollah out IMO
    Who suggested "negotiations," chance1? This is another silly, useless, and utterly irrelevant straw man argument used to silence critics -- doesn't work anymore, chance1. YOU may think that it makes sense but no one, absolutely no one I know agrees with you.

    2) Love the line (from Churchill) "trying to accommodate Hitler is like feeding a crocodile, hoping it would eat you last" - funny and accurate
    So, are we now, in this pathetic, botched so-called "Global War on Terror" now fighting Hitler? Is that what you're saying? Free advice to all who use the Hitler/crocodile quote: We Were Attacked By Bin-Laden. Not Saddam, Not Stalin, Not Hitler, but Bin-Laden. Seems Bush and Rummy (who "just don't think about him, really") have forgotten why we got into this shooting match, and that's one more reason why two-thirds of America say these clowns havfe NO PLAN for winning this war.

    3) The self loathing in this country is outrageous - the idea that we (the U.S.) is the real source of the world's troubles - I agree with Rummy on this. We represent what is good - sure you'll say corny and misguided - so be it. America is fuckin' GREAT country. That's why everyone wants to come here.
    I thought everyone wanted to come here to work as dishwashers and, as part of some wingnut conspiracy theory, to subvert America and make the Southwest part of Mexico, no?

    And what "loathing" are you referring to -- Rumsfeld didn't use that word in his speech -- are you making that up? I refer you to the transcript (http://www.defenselink.mil/Speeches/...?SpeechID=1033). Frankly, from my perch near Central Park, I see no loathing , I see no hatred of America. What I see and hear is great disappointment that this administration refuses to follow the fucking laws of the land. Torture is not legal, Sir; warrentless wiretapping and spying is illegal. America, yes, is great -- it's the felons-in-waiting, the war criminals who disgrace our nation. I plead with you to NEVER forget that, Sir, because it is our (now broken) reputation for fairness and generosity that sustained this nation. Stupid (functionally literate at best), cowardly, evil, draft-dodging Bush really fucked us over with the rest of the world.

    4) The media makes a cause celeb out of Abu Ghraib but ignores war hero stories - TRUE TRUE TRUE - just read the paper - not balanced
    Really? First, chance1, see the First Amendment to the US Constitution -- in fact, try reading it and see how wonderful our country really is. Second, you claim the media didn't celebrate our war heroes. What about Pat Tillman? What about Jesica Lynch? OH! THAT'S RIGHT!! Turns out our OWN GOVERNMENT LIED about the circumstances they both faced in battle, didn't they? Didn't they, chance1? Seems to me the Bush lovers (and I include the, ahem, chicken hawk brigades on the right) forget that this nation supports the ideals of fighting to defend our country, but sadly, that's not what Iraq is all about, is it? We were lied to, and lying may be a Bush family virture, it may be the conerstone of the Republican Party's strategy on destroying America, but it is alien to the rest of us.

    You, channce1, you and perhaps 20% of the electorate still support these losers, but the rest of us? Not Very Likely.

  32. #32
    General_Alfie
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Olbermann


    In what country was Mr. Rumsfeld raised? As a child, of whose heroism did he read? On what side of the battle for freedom did he dream one day to fight? With what country has he confused the United States of America?

    The confusion we -- as its citizens— must now address, is stark and forbidding. But variations of it have faced our forefathers, when men like Nixon and McCarthy and Curtis LeMay have darkened our skies and obscured our flag. Note -- with hope in your heart — that those earlier Americans always found their way to the light, and we can, too.

    The confusion is about whether this Secretary of Defense, and this administration, are in fact now accomplishing what they claim the terrorists seek: The destruction of our freedoms, the very ones for which the same veterans Mr. Rumsfeld addressed yesterday in Salt Lake City, so valiantly fought.



    Brilliant -- just brilliant, and all too true. That these words weren't spoken in the chamber of the worlds' greatest deliberative body, rather than by a television personality -- a courageous one, is fitting for these times and circumstances: we, the people of America, are losing our democracy.

    Just as that racist pig, Virginia Republican Senator George Girlie-Mann Allen, went beyond the pale with his "macaca" rant, so has Rumseld with his attack on the people of this nation. This pestilence, this horde of hungry locusts has nearly devoured our treasury, nearly destroyed our military, nearly wrecked our judiciary, nearly humiliated us with an incompetent war and associated program of torture and killing, nearly excommunicated us from our friends -- indeed, from civil society, and nearly maneuvered us into World War Three; they have nearly twenty-six more months to finish the job.

    Momentous days are ahead of us all -- these freaks of nature and haters of freedom will not go away quielty, or willingly; they will never voluntarily surrender to the will of the people. (I offer Florida in November 2000 and Ohio in 2004 as examples of their fondness for subversion of the will of the people.)



  33. #33
    ds_writr
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by smelter44 View Post
    This was Keith Olbermann's comments on Rumsfeld ...... it's a long article but well worth the read:

    Thanks for that article, smelter.

    It does make one think of "Pride goeth before the fall" and all that.

    I do think there is a real enemy out there in the world. But where the Bush Administration has gone so wrong is in losing credibility with and the trust of the American people (and subsequently, the World). And without trust & credibility, you have nothing whether its in a relationship or in leading a country.

    I did find the idea about "Rumsfeld's rhetoric vs this being a democracy" intriguing because really I think any war-mongering government does and will have a problem communicating with the people.

    Because the (any) military isn't really quite a democracy.

    And so when you operate from that POV or through those channels 24/7, I do think a person can lose sight of what it truly means to have and live in a democracy.

    And Rumsfeld, if nothing else, is a military man head to toe. He's eaten and slept the stuff since his uber hyper-macho ademocratic days as a young man.

    Look at what happens to any government which becomes war-mongering and pro-militaristic to an extreme. You get Nazi Germany or you get North Korea. Because the people must conform to the military ideology which simply is not, by nature or practice, democracy as we know and love it.

    Perhaps the people who should be making such speeches should not be those so immersed in the military system or ways and means of the military that they do in fact have no perspective on what genuine democracy means any longer.

    That is how I view Rumsfeld. He is a company man and that company is military. He wouldn't even be interest in this administration if it were not warring. Its his life blood, his sport, his personal sensibilities or definition of what constitutes "democracy". And its all filtered through a military world.

    but the rest of America is not a military world. The Constitution was not written in a manner which makes the citizenry succumb to the military.

    In fact, I rather consider what we are in under this administration to be an abstracted ideological version of Marshall Law.

    Rather than government command via guns and tanks in the streets, there has happened (or been attempted - and Rumsfeld's rhetoric is an example) a Marshall Law of the MIND.

    This administration has a clear distain for the people. It has denied everything which the people has laid before its feet. It attempts to make fools of its citizens. It has caused harm and lied to the people. And now, as clearly stated by Rumsfeld, it is implying that somehow the people are a liability in accomplishing what this administration (using the military) wishes to accomplish. This administration has undermined and alienated, the people, the Congress, the media, the police and any variety of federal agencoes, departments and local/state elected officials and operations/needs.


    They have denied, lied and denegrated American citizens and created a chronic veil of vague threat over the land. All of that has an effect on the public psyche just as much as would seeing tanks rolling through the streets.

    I think that is all evidence of Bush and his men trying to employ some Marshall Law of the mind.

  34. #34
    grizzled
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    ^^ That's a very interesting character study of Rumsfeld, DS. I think you might have hit the nail on the head. From my short stint in the service, albeit only through conscription, I have personally seen this mindset manifested in some career soldiers. The founding fathers, in their wisdom, created a civilian run form of government that should prevent this from getting out of hand but the Bush administration seems to have a unique confluence of dark and secretive personalities in it. Rumsfeld, Rove and Cheney are a very scary and quite dangerous trio. Combining them with a malleable, not too bright, born-again, ex-alcoholic President who literally thinks he's on a mission directed by God .... now we've entered into some real, uncharted waters. Fear is the product they sell and far too many of us have bought in ..... hook, line and sinker.

  35. #35
    Banned chance1's Avatar
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Still on an island on this one - I like islands.

    My points are simple - that Rummy's handling of the war and some of his comments are not linked. It's like if you have a friend who has done something bad (perhaps he cheated on you) and then he makes a speech in which some of his statements are true. You can't deny that they're true because he cheated on you.

    Couple points

    Not a Rummy fan - he has not done a good job

    But I think you have to separate his performance in his job from some of his comments

    While Hitler and today's terrorists are not the same - they both represent real danger. Used to be the Soviet Union was our greatest concern. Not now - Islamic Fascists (I think it fits) are the biggest threat

    In terms of media coverage of Iraq war, Middle East conflict, Bush, his admin - it's clear to me that a disproportionate amount of articles/editorials, etc. focus on the shortcomings of the US and the admin. That's what I see. Not looking for a cheerleading squad. But Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo stories and how the admin failed in Katrina and wiretapping blah blah blah - it's overkill and clearly reflects a POV that is anti admin. Won't even get into the NYT releasing info about financial links to terrorism - nice move - really good for the country. Liberty is a great thing - if you're alive - need the latter to have the former.

    As for moral high ground, I think our country exhibits it every day - and thus like most things, it gets taken for granted. Our basis for living is a sound one that transcends admins, individuals, etc. Not that much difference in Amercia really under Clinton, Bush and other Presidents - not much at all.

    Alfie - the fact that no on agrees with me - if you think that is bothersome, think again.

  36. #36
    ds_writr
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    ^ I believe there is a very real threat in the world.

    But sadly, this administration has proven, due to incompetence and their own desire to snatch for control, is not capable of securing us from the threat.

    That is the tragedy of this two-term administration. With each clicking month, the real threats loom larger and the infrastructure of security in the USA proves weaker.

    That's why its vital that the People elect the best leader they can find.

    But before one can do that (barring "hanging chads" and all that), there must be genuine dialogue about what it means to be the "best leader".

    A people cannot elect one if they can't even identify one.

    The best leader is not necessarily the guy with the biggest gun. And it isn't necessarily the brainiest "tree hugger" either.

    Its the responsibility of the People to make sure a proper leader is chosen in the next Presidential elections.

    "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

    If 2000 was once and 2004 was twice, we may need to add: "Fool me thrice, shame on America."

  37. #37
    holland
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    the food they allow like white flour pizza and sodas etc make us fat and lazy


    refrain from buying trash

    wake up

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Still on an island on this one - I like islands.

    My points are simple - that Rummy's handling of the war and some of his comments are not linked. It's like if you have a friend who has done something bad (perhaps he cheated on you) and then he makes a speech in which some of his statements are true. You can't deny that they're true because he cheated on you.
    Okay, but there are quite a few us (and not just here on JUB, and in this forum) that feel that those who hold the same "simple" points as you do, aren't looking at the big picture.

    All of his comments are linked, because Rumsfeld has shown himself in the court of public opinion that he lives in either:
    1. An alternate universe.
    2. A complete Black and White World.
    3. All of the above.
    Lets take your analogy of the "bad friend."

    Okay, just because he's a bad friend (he cheated on you), it doesn't mean that he doesn't have a valid point to make.

    My question to you is, how much more lattitude do you give this friend if he continues to cheat on you, and WHY is he still your friend in the first place?


    Couple points

    Not a Rummy fan - he has not done a good job

    But I think you have to separate his performance in his job from some of his comments
    Wrong.

    When he's makes public comments he's on the job.

    This isn't public citizen Donny Rumsfeld making comments when the cameras are focused, the lights are one, and the are mikes live and hot. This is the Secretary of Defense of the United States of America.


    While Hitler and today's terrorists are not the same - they both represent real danger. Used to be the Soviet Union was our greatest concern. Not now - Islamic Fascists (I think it fits) are the biggest threat
    See, here's the problem.

    When Communism collapsed in the former Soviet Union, and the Berlin wall came crashing down back in 1989, with it came the collapse of the cause celebre of "Neo-Conservatism" for the previous 50 some-odd years.

    Without the "Godless Communists" who is the enemy now?

    Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rove, they've gone out looking for enemies to further "the cause." If they couldn't find any they MADE THEM UP. Imagine "Fear Factor" before the advent of "reality television." Except instead of eating bugs, Americans are now being forced to swallow vapid idealogies.

    At first it was the percieved decline in morality, then the gays, then Clinton, then all of the above, and the events of 9/11 gave them the opportunity to say ALL OF THE ABOVE. Not to mention the chance to invent terms like "Islamofascism!"

    Takes a fascist to know a fascist I guess. (Gawd I've been waiting to say that in this thread, in regard to Rumsfeld's remarks! )

    And in your following comments, you appear to have jumped off that Island and have agreed with adding "the media" to thier list of enemies.

    In terms of media coverage of Iraq war, Middle East conflict, Bush, his admin - it's clear to me that a disproportionate amount of articles/editorials, etc. focus on the shortcomings of the US and the admin. That's what I see. Not looking for a cheerleading squad. But Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo stories and how the admin failed in Katrina and wiretapping blah blah blah - it's overkill and clearly reflects a POV that is anti admin. Won't even get into the NYT releasing info about financial links to terrorism - nice move - really good for the country. Liberty is a great thing - if you're alive - need the latter to have the former.
    I always grew up believing that "the press" was our fourth branch of government' Executive, Legislative, Judicial, and Press. Have you ever given any thought as to why the FIRST AMENDMENT made by our founding fathers to the U.S. Consitution was adopted to have the following words?

    Amendment I

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
    While not Congress themselves, wouldn't you agree that members of the Bush Administration, the Vice-President, and the Secretary of Defense are making an argument to abridge the freedom of speech, the press, and for the assemblage of any persons/parties that disagree with thier failed policies?

    What you appear to be decrying here is the fact that the U.S. media, as poorly as they've done thier jobs in the past six years (IMHO), AREN'T reporting the propaganda spewing out of every corner of the Republican controlled U.S. government that they should be.

    I honestly don't understand why there are fellow (and apparently so many) Americans who are so quick and eager to give up the very things that America stands for, so that they can be safe from an enemy who's only desire is to destroy everything that America stands for.

    "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." ~ Janis Joplin

    Give that away to those in power of our current U.S. government and what's left???

    As for moral high ground, I think our country exhibits it every day - and thus like most things, it gets taken for granted. Our basis for living is a sound one that transcends admins, individuals, etc. Not that much difference in Amercia really under Clinton, Bush and other Presidents - not much at all.
    So what you're saying is that things are just the same before September 11, 2001, as they are after?

    I would be most happy to read some examples of that hypothosis.

    We didn't have such a well defined, but yet so generic of an enemy prior to 9/11. Wouldn't you agree?

    Alfie - the fact that no on agrees with me - if you think that is bothersome, think again.
    Who would that be bothersome too then?

    Alfie states his points clearly, succinctly, and quite damned annoyingly, I agree with a lot of what he says, just not his approach in advocating it.

    But that's between me and Alfie, I would NEVER attempt to speak in his place, nor would I want him to speak in mine.

    I hope that you in no way found any offense in my breaking down your post and questioning you.

    I'm just attempting to further the dialogue along without making things too personal.

    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Centex - not personal at all - I disagree with you on most - and I'm not sure I explained myself as well as I hoped

    1 - in terms of separating Rummy's job on the war effort and some of his comments - I can do it - I do do it. While you may think all of his comments are politically motivated and perhaps some/most are, I think you have to look at them independantly.

    So while I believe he should be replaced in his job - his comments I look at at face value.

    My question back to you would be. If John Doe made some of the comments about (not Rummy), would u be so quick to dismiss?

    2 - I don't need Rummy or Bush or the Admin to convince me that Al Qaeda, Iran, Hezbollah and the rest of the terror squad are dangerous and if they had their drothers, I would not be here (nor you). I'm not spooked cause Rummy says I should be but rather because they were just trying to blow up 10+ planes out of London plus. Their actions are all I need to be concerned.

    3 - Long live the press - but take anything written in print or blogged with a grain of salt - just as you believe Bush and his henchman are trying to railroad u with their view of the world, so does the NY Times and other papers. Abu Ghraib is a great example. It was overblown IMO and the focus on it was clearly politically motivated. This is not questioning their right to do so, but my question would be to what end - and the answer is to undermine the admin.

    4 - I think the govt. needs to adjust to the times - and that the Patriot Act saves lives - I support it. I don't feel less free. On the contrary I feel safer. But my point was more that our way of life (other than the impact of 911) is not much different with a Dem Pres than with a Repub Pres.

    5 - No one agreeing with me here is expected. It's all relative. Too much similar thinking on this board if you ask me. Too many nodding heads - all very intelligent heads - but I would suggest that:

    Too much emphasis on Bush the villain
    Too many personal attacks on politicians whom you (not you) disagree with

    Good stuff centex

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Centex - not personal at all - I disagree with you on most - and I'm not sure I explained myself as well as I hoped
    First off I'm impressed with how quickly you whipped off a response. It was much quicker than my response to your post that I quoted from.

    Not looking for a "I'm right, and you're wrong thingy" just an intelligent dialogue between two guys who apparently have completely different views of the same world.

    1 - in terms of separating Rummy's job on the war effort and some of his comments - I can do it - I do do it. While you may think all of his comments are politically motivated and perhaps some/most are, I think you have to look at them independantly.

    So while I believe he should be replaced in his job - his comments I look at at face value.
    I can't.

    From history, and public record, Rumsfeld has an agenda and a view of the world that I don't subscribe to, and cannot support. Period.

    This has nothing to do with my feelings about him as a person. I don't know the guy. I'm sure he has a great sense of humor, and if it not for the fact that he's the Secretary of Defense of the United States of America, and oversees roughly 85 percent of the nation's $44 billion intelligence budget he would most likely be a very entertaining and engaging dinner guest.

    My question back to you would be. If John Doe made some of the comments about (not Rummy), would u be so quick to dismiss?
    Yes, for the reasons that I illustrated above.

    2 - I don't need Rummy or Bush or the Admin to convince me that Al Qaeda, Iran, Hezbollah and the rest of the terror squad are dangerous and if they had their drothers, I would not be here (nor you). I'm not spooked cause Rummy says I should be but rather because they were just trying to blow up 10+ planes out of London plus. Their actions are all I need to be concerned.
    You'll get no argument from me here.

    However, al-Qaeda took responsibility for 9/11, and the Taliban Government in Afghanistan was harboring them. We "carpeted Afghanistan with bombs" and the Taliban fell.

    It's been acknowledged (though not widely) that there is/was no connection between al-Qaeda and Iraq, but yet here we are. More than 2,600 of our fellow American; fathers, sons, daughters, lovers, friends, DEAD and for what?

    I want to be on board! I want to see America succeed! After nearly five years I'm still waiting for my Government to let me on on wtf is going on.

    Instead I'm being told that I should just stfu, and "trust them."

    I consider myself a patriot, and this Administration has broken my trust too many times to continue blindly following them.

    Do you know what "co-dependency" is?

    3 - Long live the press - but take anything written in print or blogged with a grain of salt - just as you believe Bush and his henchman are trying to railroad u with their view of the world, so does the NY Times and other papers. Abu Ghraib is a great example. It was overblown IMO and the focus on it was clearly politically motivated. This is not questioning their right to do so, but my question would be to what end - and the answer is to undermine the admin.
    I completely agree.

    I NEVER believe everything that I read, regardless of the source.

    I've been personally miquoted in the newspapers too many times, and I have a better understanding than most about how news stories make it to the press. (It's only relevant to my life outside of this forum so please don't ask.)

    As much as you complain about WHAT the U.S. media reports on, I can complain about all of the THINGS that the Media either never reports on, or buries back on page 22A.


    4 - I think the govt. needs to adjust to the times - and that the Patriot Act saves lives - I support it. I don't feel less free. On the contrary I feel safer. But my point was more that our way of life (other than the impact of 911) is not much different with a Dem Pres than with a Repub Pres.
    Sorry chance. Love ya! Mean it!

    But this is where you and I part company.

    During the days immediatly after 9/11, GW Bush stepped up to the plate, and for a couple of days America and the rest of the world were united in our grief for what happend that day.

    Then Bush and his minions politicized everything, divided this country worse than it's been perhaps since the civil-war, and began to persue an ever changing agenda and the reasons for it almost on a daily basis.

    I can't blindly support that.

    If the Bush Administration cannot "STAND AND DELIVER" on it's policies, both foriegn and domestic, they no longer deserve to be in power, and in my view are considered to be more of a threat to the United States Constitution and the values in which this country was founded than any terrorist group out there.

    As I stated before, I would rather die at the hands of some terrorist, than to die in fear of the current government. (Honestly, I'd do most anything to get rid of both!)

    5 - No one agreeing with me here is expected. It's all relative. Too much similar thinking on this board if you ask me. Too many nodding heads - all very intelligent heads - but I would suggest that:

    Too much emphasis on Bush the villain
    Too many personal attacks on politicians whom you (not you) disagree with
    Well, in all honesty, I've never held much regard for those who chose to "go along to get along" just for the sake of an argument.

    Just don't get your nose too out of joint, if some fellow JUBbers jump your shit! For some that's the only way that they know how to communicate, and may not even be aware of it.

    Good stuff centex
    You too!

    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Centex

    right back at ya

    Rummy is certainly a villainous figure - and history will not treat him well. It is unfortunate that Bush did not let him loose a while back. But just as I respect your right to speak, I respect his. I don't think he loses that right because he made some bad decisions.

    Stay the course sounds like "more of the same". I believe we should stay in Iraq and finish the job. Help get a legitimate govt. settled, try to foster peace - make the place better for Iraqis who have had miserable lives under Saddam. I believe it is possible. I want to believe it can happen. I too think we need a change in our govt. and I hope the new one can do a better job than the current one in making Iraq a safer place for our soldiers and their people. And I believe that since now we are there, we have to make the best of it - and going back to "why did we go" does not serve any purpose.

    I agree that Bush was at his best post 911 - very Giuliani-like - a real leader. I have fireman friends who were down there who met him who said he had tears in his eyes and he was a regular guy - hokey I know. He has not followed thru for sure. I think politics is a dirty biz and you can say that the Repubs have politicized more issues but I think the Dems do the same. It's about winning, like in sports - and it flat out sucks. Lots of creeps on both sides that review their talking points provided to them and . . . . . . Not a Republican thing IMO

    Will work on not getting my nose out of joint. Work in progress - LOL. It's one of many steps I need to take successfully. And I'll think about them "not being aware of it" - takes some of the sting out.

    One thing - not sure I'd rather die at the hands of a terrorist - they are not very humane.

    Peace

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Centex

    right back at ya

    Rummy is certainly a villainous figure - and history will not treat him well. It is unfortunate that Bush did not let him loose a while back. But just as I respect your right to speak, I respect his. I don't think he loses that right because he made some bad decisions.

    Stay the course sounds like "more of the same". I believe we should stay in Iraq and finish the job. Help get a legitimate govt. settled, try to foster peace - make the place better for Iraqis who have had miserable lives under Saddam. I believe it is possible. I want to believe it can happen. I too think we need a change in our govt. and I hope the new one can do a better job than the current one in making Iraq a safer place for our soldiers and their people. And I believe that since now we are there, we have to make the best of it - and going back to "why did we go" does not serve any purpose.

    I agree that Bush was at his best post 911 - very Giuliani-like - a real leader. I have fireman friends who were down there who met him who said he had tears in his eyes and he was a regular guy - hokey I know. He has not followed thru for sure. I think politics is a dirty biz and you can say that the Repubs have politicized more issues but I think the Dems do the same. It's about winning, like in sports - and it flat out sucks. Lots of creeps on both sides that review their talking points provided to them and . . . . . . Not a Republican thing IMO

    Will work on not getting my nose out of joint. Work in progress - LOL. It's one of many steps I need to take successfully. And I'll think about them "not being aware of it" - takes some of the sting out.

    One thing - not sure I'd rather die at the hands of a terrorist - they are not very humane.

    Peace
    Well, on September 11, 2001, I remember where I was, and what I was doing. Much like everyone else on that day.

    A friend of mine was a passenger on fight 11 that hit the North Tower of the WTC.

    A friend, and classmate of mine that I've known since JR High School was doing his best to get people out of the South Tower of the WTC before it collapsed.

    A really cute "fuck-buddy" of mine from Dallas, lived in Brooklyn and worked in the North Tower of the WTC. Apparently he was doing the same.

    They all died that day.

    My friend on Flight 11 was a Buddhist.

    My friend in the south tower was a Republican, because that's how he was raised.

    My friend in the North tower didn't vote, because like most Americans he didn't see the point.

    What's humane about politicizing thier lives for something that the Bush Administration would have NEVER acknowledged thier existance on?

    I'm personally offended that Bush, and his Administration, took everything that WAS AMERICAN about the tragedy of 9/11 and twisted into some perverted shit that goes against everything that IS American to me.

    I could buy the Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Rice, view of the word if there was any true validity in it.

    There are too many un-answered questions, and not enough leadership to give any of it meaning.

    At the risk of being written off as "too emotionally involved" do you get where I'm coming from?

    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Well, on September 11, 2001, I remember where I was, and what I was doing. Much like everyone else on that day.

    A friend of mine was a passenger on fight 11 that hit the North Tower of the WTC.

    A friend, and classmate of mine that I've known since JR High School was doing his best to get people out of the South Tower of the WTC before it collapsed.

    A really cute "fuck-buddy" of mine from Dallas, lived in Brooklyn and worked in the North Tower of the WTC. Apparently he was doing the same.

    They all died that day.

    My friend on Flight 11 was a Buddhist.

    My friend in the south tower was a Republican, because that's how he was raised.

    My friend in the North tower didn't vote, because like most Americans he didn't see the point.

    What's humane about politicizing thier lives for something that the Bush Administration would have NEVER acknowledged thier existance on?

    I'm personally offended that Bush, and his Administration, took everything that WAS AMERICAN about the tragedy of 9/11 and twisted into some perverted shit that goes against everything that IS American to me.

    I could buy the Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Rice, view of the word if there was any true validity in it.

    There are too many un-answered questions, and not enough leadership to give any of it meaning.

    At the risk of being written off as "too emotionally involved" do you get where I'm coming from?

    I am truly sorry for your losses centex. I think we all remember where we were. I was late for work (not the norm) that morning and as I walked thru the elevators I sorta heard about the first plane, in the background. I work in the media business. I was uptown (far from the WTC) and at about 11am, I hooked up with a friend on 5th Ave near Central Park and we walked across the Queensboro Bridge, into Queens - and walked home most of the way. Got home about 6-7pm. I remember the decency and comraderie of all the people we came across - who shared water, had a kind word for each other, helped the elderly, comforted those who needed it. Stores were giving out drinks to people.

    A friend of mine - one I would have loved to got to know better - who lived in the next town over - died. A close business colleague - his brother - died - Jason is still not the same guy 5 years later - I fear he will never be the same - his sense of humor is not there. Frank, a guy that I coached boys basketball against - his brother died. I actually saw him on the train yesterday and we made small talk about the U.S. Open. In the town next to mine (same town as my friend), the train station had 20 some odd cars that were not picked up. Wives/Husbands lost their spouses, mothers lost their sons and daughters. So I hear you and I do feel your pain. I am so sorry. This thread has made me think about this when I had truly blocked it out.

    Politicizing a tragedy is horrible. I also think not learning from your mistakes is horrible. I think our elected leaders need to be strong minded and aggressive in the war on terror. Promoting fear is not the way. But being weak is not the way either. So while I deplore the former, I fear the latter as well. And finally, ultimately, I loathe and blame the terrorists for this. They are the ones who caused all this.

    I totally understand where you are coming from

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    I am truly sorry for your losses centex. I think we all remember where we were. I was late for work (not the norm) that morning and as I walked thru the elevators I sorta heard about the first plane, in the background. I work in the media business. I was uptown (far from the WTC) and at about 11am, I hooked up with a friend on 5th Ave near Central Park and we walked across the Queensboro Bridge, into Queens - and walked home most of the way. Got home about 6-7pm. I remember the decency and comraderie of all the people we came across - who shared water, had a kind word for each other, helped the elderly, comforted those who needed it. Stores were giving out drinks to people.

    A friend of mine - one I would have loved to got to know better - who lived in the next town over - died. A close business colleague - his brother - died - Jason is still not the same guy 5 years later - I fear he will never be the same - his sense of humor is not there. Frank, a guy that I coached boys basketball against - his brother died. I actually saw him on the train yesterday and we made small talk about the U.S. Open. In the town next to mine (same town as my friend), the train station had 20 some odd cars that were not picked up. Wives/Husbands lost their spouses, mothers lost their sons and daughters. So I hear you and I do feel your pain. I am so sorry. This thread has made me think about this when I had truly blocked it out.

    Politicizing a tragedy is horrible. I also think not learning from your mistakes is horrible. I think our elected leaders need to be strong minded and aggressive in the war on terror. Promoting fear is not the way. But being weak is not the way either. So while I deplore the former, I fear the latter as well. And finally, ultimately, I loathe and blame the terrorists for this. They are the ones who caused all this.

    I totally understand where you are coming from
    Thank you chance1. We've found our common ground.

    Would you not agree then, that as Americans that we should be truly united on the "war on terrorism," and that the Bush Administration has done nothing to keep us united on the issue?

    As a country, I feel that we can do better, and that someone should hold our elected representatives accountable for thier percieved duplicity.

    You didn't have to share with me what you've shared here in your post. You have my complete respect.

    I hope that you and I can continue to debate the solutions to the current situaiton that our country finds itself in.

    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

  45. #45
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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by nditalynow View Post
    Rumsfelds' latest comments are nothing more than a continuation of Karl Rove's directions of how to hang on to public opinion. They're obviously desperate! Not long ago they implied Americans were unpatriotic if they had the guts to question their motives with invading Iraq. Now their fascists? Truly the spin of a desperate administration.
    Desperate is exactly right -- they ought to be ashamed of themselves for scorching the earth with their truly pathetic lies and distortions. Of course, these creatures couldn't care less about honesty and integrity: honest men do not lie and distort so as to invade a nation, and men of integrity do not spy and snoop on citizens.

    It is wholly typical of Bush to lie and distort the positions of his political opponents -- that's his track record, that's how he operates. Bush usually prefers to use intermediaries to slash his opponents' throats, intermediaries like Cheney, Rove and Rumsfeld, but he's certainly not beneath getting some blood on his ill-fitting suits, either.

    Like most cowards and fear-biters, he likes to use straw men arguments -- he usually starts with his infamous, "some people say," which is an early-warning sign that he's about to do some serious trashing. By example, look at some of his remarks from earlier this week, as reported by Jim VanderHei of the Washington Post:

    Bush suggested last week that Democrats are promising voters to block additional money for continuing the war. Vice President Cheney this week said critics "claim retreat from Iraq would satisfy the appetite of the terrorists and get them to leave us alone." And Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, citing passivity toward Nazi Germany before World War II, said that "many have still not learned history's lessons" and "believe that somehow vicious extremists can be appeased."

    Pressed to support these allegations, the White House yesterday could cite no major Democrat who has proposed cutting off funds or suggested that withdrawing from Iraq would persuade terrorists to leave Americans alone. But White House and Republican officials said those are logical interpretations of the most common Democratic position favoring a timetable for withdrawing troops from Iraq.
    "Logical?" Hardly. These are lies, plain and simple -- lies from the so-called "Christian" president.

    Finally -- finally America is seeing the real George WTC Bush -- they're seeing the real seething anger and hostility he has for our democracy, they're seeing (and perhaps for the first time) the appalling and profound incompetence of this administration.

    Gore Vidal said after the December 2000 theft of the presidential election that Bush would the most hated man in our history, and whether he's the most hated or not, he's certainly the least honest and the most incompetent.





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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    When I read this no. 1 post of the AP article, and when I heard the sound bites on the news, I agreed with everything that Rumsfeld said.

    The first poster does what he does best (which he has done to my words in the past, so I speak from personal experience) and distorts what was said. Jackroe calls him on it in post no. 10. He comes up with a namby-pamby response in post no. 11, which is filled with more name-calling and vituperation. This doesn't impress me.

    In my view, this country (or at least the Upper West Side) is filled with people who think like the first poster (and most of the rest of you, apparently) who hate Republicans so much (and anything that they stand for), that they will do anything, say anything, reveal any national security secret, so long as it will helps them and their politics.

    Rumsfeld was right to point this out. I think they should have been doing this all along. He has said that there are Americans who are more interested in dividing Americans than in fighting the people who are trying to kill us. As my father used to say, "if the boot fits..."

  47. #47

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    The first poster does what he does best (which he has done to my words in the past, so I speak from personal experience) and distorts what was said. Jackroe calls him on it in post no. 10. He comes up with a namby-pamby response in post no. 11, which is filled with more name-calling and vituperation. This doesn't impress me.
    I was less interested in being impressed or not and more interested in an actual answer. I read the first post's article and also didn't see it.

    In my view, this country (or at least the Upper West Side) is filled with people who think like the first poster (and most of the rest of you, apparently) who hate Republicans so much (and anything that they stand for), that they will do anything, say anything, reveal any national security secret, so long as it will helps them and their politics.
    What national security secrets did Alfie or "most of the rest of you" reveal? I do recall that a certain Republican administration makes anything national security secrets, to the detriment of a free republic just to save themselves, and yet outed a CIA agent.

    Rumsfeld was right to point this out. I think they should have been doing this all along. He has said that there are Americans who are more interested in dividing Americans than in fighting the people who are trying to kill us. As my father used to say, "if the boot fits..."
    Interestingly enough, Rumsfeld is right, except for the fact he is projecting the fault on others---those Americans he is talking about are himself, Bush, Rove, and the rest of the administration who have been more interested in dividing Americans than fighting those who are trying to kill us now, much like they refused to serve this nation when their own time was called decades ago.

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    When I read this no. 1 post of the AP article, and when I heard the sound bites on the news, I agreed with everything that Rumsfeld said.

    The first poster does what he does best (which he has done to my words in the past, so I speak from personal experience) and distorts what was said. Jackroe calls him on it in post no. 10. He comes up with a namby-pamby response in post no. 11, which is filled with more name-calling and vituperation. This doesn't impress me.

    In my view, this country (or at least the Upper West Side) is filled with people who think like the first poster (and most of the rest of you, apparently) who hate Republicans so much (and anything that they stand for), that they will do anything, say anything, reveal any national security secret, so long as it will helps them and their politics.

    Rumsfeld was right to point this out. I think they should have been doing this all along. He has said that there are Americans who are more interested in dividing Americans than in fighting the people who are trying to kill us. As my father used to say, "if the boot fits..."


    Don't you rather think though that Rumsfeld's words are more about the impending Iraqi civil war which this administration has been trying to stave off and denying for YEARS now and the fact the country had better be getting behind a war ultimately with Iran?

    In other words, don't you think that Rumsfeld in being who he is and with his policies in mind would rather regard the general American populace as being complicit in making these wars more difficult to execute?

    I would think a Rumsfeld would like (or have liked) and cannot understand why there are not more Rah! Rah-ers among the people. That would, after all, have made this campaign so much easier.

    In a way, I think that Rumsfeld is experiencing what many Democrats of an opposing opinion are experiencing and that is "WHERE ARE THE PEOPLE?"

    He is, I would imagine AMAZED that most Americans aren't gung-ho for this Middle East debacle just as I am AMAZED that those same Americans seem so impotent in pro-actively enacting that lack of support.

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    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    No, Secretary Rumsfeld, and his boss, President Bush, clearly believe that this is a struggle for Western Civilization...which has been assaulted in the past. And they are now stepping up to the plate and calling terrorist sympathizers and apologists as they see them. Good for them.

    Yes, I think Bush and Rumsfeld are astounded that more people don't agree with them. This is why they have been silent for so long. But they are undoubtedly stunned that there are Americans who wish ill among our servicemen. Those who leak and then publish national security secrets (don't ask me to list them...if you don't know, then you don't read the newspapers...or you think it is okay to do so) which harm our troops.

    But as far as this thread goes, I am not going to get into a rehashing of what you all think of Bush or Rumsfeld. But the first poster is not bothered in the least to mischaracterize what Rumsfeld said in his speech to further the anti-Bush and anti-Republican agenda.

  50. #50

    Re: (POLL) Most Americans Are Stupid, Ungrateful Fucks and Fascist Sympathizers

    The administration has been silent on what for so long? You know, other than the truth. They've long since been critical of those that *gasp* disagree with them! And who is it that is wishing ill against our servicemen (but apparently adore our servicewomen, since you fail to include them; stuck in the good ol' days when women weren't allowed to serve?)?

    Truly a terrible administration that feels justified to attack the American people that don't buy their propaganda, which is a growing number by the way.

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