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  1. #1
    Student of Human Nature NickCole's Avatar
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    Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Pretty cogent reporting of BushRepublican cynicism and political exploitation of terrorism -- also their dishonesty and divisiveness.

    US President George W. Bush seized on a foiled London airline bomb plot to hammer unnamed critics he accused of having all but forgotten the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

    Weighed down by the unpopular war in Iraq, Bush and his aides have tried to shift the national political debate from that conflict to the broader and more popular global war on terrorism ahead of November 7 congressional elections.

    The London conspiracy is "a stark reminder that this nation is at war with Islamic fascists who will use any means to destroy those of us who love freedom, to hurt our nation," the president said on a day trip to Wisconsin.

    "It is a mistake to believe there is no threat to the United States of America," he said. "We've taken a lot of measures to protect the American people. But obviously we still aren't completely safe."

    His remarks came a day after the White House orchestrated an exceptionally aggressive campaign to tar opposition Democrats as weak on terrorism, knowing what Democrats didn't: News of the plot could soon break.

    Vice President Dick Cheney and White House spokesman Tony Snow had argued that Democrats wanted to raise what Snow called "a white flag in the war on terror," citing as evidence the defeat of a three-term Democratic senator who backed the Iraq war in his effort to win renomination.

    But Bush aides on Thursday fought the notion that they had exploited their knowledge of the coming British raid to hit Democrats, saying the trigger had been the defeat of Democratic Senator Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut by an anti-war political novice.

    "The comments were purely and simply a reaction" to Democratic voters who "removed a pro-defense Senator and sent the message that the party would not tolerate candidates with such views," said Snow.

    The public relations offensive "was not done in anticipation. It was not said with the knowledge that this was coming," the spokesman said.

    Snow said Bush first learned in detail about the plot on Friday, and received two detailed briefings on it on Saturday and Sunday, as well as had two conversations about it with British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

    But a senior White House official said that the British government had not launched its raid until well after Cheney held a highly unusual conference call with reporters to attack the Democrats as weak against terrorism.

    An aide to Lieberman, who would have been one of the first Democrats to hear of the plot because he is the top Democrat on the Senate Homeland Security Committee, said the lawmaker first heard of it late Wednesday.

    On Wednesday, Cheney had suggested that Democrats believe "that somehow we can retreat behind our oceans and not be actively engaged in this conflict and be safe here at home, which clearly we know we won't, we can't, be," he said.

    While some Democrats have opposed some steps in the war on terrorism, and more and more are calling for a withdrawal from Iraq, no major figures in the party have called for a wholesale retreat in the broader conflict.

    But Bush's Republicans hoped the raid would yield political gains.

    "I'd rather be talking about this than all of the other things that Congress hasn't done well," one Republican congressional aide told AFP on condition of anonymity because of possible reprisals.

    "Weeks before September 11th, this is going to play big," said another White House official, who also spoke on condition of not being named, adding that some Democratic candidates won't "look as appealing" under the circumstances.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060810...e_060810185330

  2. #2
    In Loving Memory Andreus's Avatar
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    they need to be held acountable

    the american public needs to look at this for what it really is, and answer a simple question.

    two wars later, do you really feel any safer today than you did five years ago? Has invading Iraq and afghanistan helped your personal security?

    this plot has only proven that the real bad guys are only annoyed, not anywhere close to being stopped.

    we need leadership that will spend the money on intelligence, border security, updating the rail system, and installing much needed equipment in all american airports.

    You cant do those things while fighting wars that cost billions and incite rage across the globe.

    Bush and his boys wont be able to duck this one, and hillary and the gang wont let them.

    She is far too politically astute to let this pass.

  3. #3
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    i feel less safe and the attemped bombing in london has npthin to do with 9/11/01. i would ask the american public to wake and particapte in their poltical process in some way instead of waiting for spme onelse to do it for them.

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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot
    It seems to me that is exactly what you are trying to do.

  5. #5

    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    There is certainly no doubt that Cheney, Snow, Mehlman, et al. knew of the upcoming arrests when they made their comments on the Connecticut race.

    Dems will have to make the case that the Bush policies have made us less safe and weakened the country. If the Dems don't make that case the Repubs will again define them as a bunch of weak nancies unable to stand up to America's enemies.

  6. #6

    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    The sad part of all this is that the American public will probably buy into Bush's new horseshit. I was appalled when I read the polls that said that a majority of Americans still believe Saddam had wmd's, poison gases, ties to Islamic fundimentalists, etc. The whole pitiful bunch of lies. Sometimes, in my most pessimistic moods, I think we deserve exactly what we get. But as the historians say, truth is the daughter of time.

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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Yup - Bush is the bad guy on this one

    He probably was in on the plot too - just like 911

    Wake up people

    America is a target

    Bush is not the answer but he is not the problem. Terrorists who want to kill innocents are the problem

    And the fact that it's been almost 5 years since we were attacked, and there hasn't been another on US soil, I'd call that success. For cynics, it's "we're not really in danger"

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    In Loving Memory Andreus's Avatar
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    oh wait, chance

    this is rich

    blow up the mid east because we are in danger... and Bush is right this way

    but bush is doing a good job because we arent in danger... and bush is right this way

    but the terrorists are more motivated than ever to strike us and nearly pulled that off, so we are in danger... and bush is right this way

    but the terrorists were foiled, and so we arent in danger ... and bush is right this way

    you cant seem to make up your mind, chance

    no matter what the events are, you will interpret bush as the good guy who is doing a good job and you will translate facts as you see fit to defend your man.

    Bush has waged a war to stop terrorism

    he has but our boys in harms way for it

    it has not worked.

    As I predicted weeks ago and you said i was wrong, these wars and our place in them are inciting the terrorists to act, not intimidate them into passivity

    they do not think the way you are suggesting, and bush's miscalculation almost cost thousands of lives.

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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Iran wants Israel off the map; and most of Europe thinks that Israel is the number one threat to world peace. I suspect that the problem is bigger than the United States. As for exploiting political events to his gain, I don't you can point to a single politician who doesn't do that sort of thing, including Hilary Clinton herself. I do no say that this is right or wrong. I merely say that it is foolish and mean-spirited to note that Bush is doing this as if no other politican on the planet does. Chirac does it; Blair does it. Hezbollah does it. And so on.

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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    ^ Amen brother.

  11. #11
    In Loving Memory Andreus's Avatar
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    yes

    lets all praise the lowest common trait of politicians

    We can do better. these are apologists for the sad state of affairs in american politics, nothing more.

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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreus View Post
    oh wait, chance

    this is rich

    blow up the mid east because we are in danger... and Bush is right this way

    but bush is doing a good job because we arent in danger... and bush is right this way

    but the terrorists are more motivated than ever to strike us and nearly pulled that off, so we are in danger... and bush is right this way

    but the terrorists were foiled, and so we arent in danger ... and bush is right this way

    you cant seem to make up your mind, chance

    no matter what the events are, you will interpret bush as the good guy who is doing a good job and you will translate facts as you see fit to defend your man.

    Bush has waged a war to stop terrorism

    he has but our boys in harms way for it

    it has not worked.

    As I predicted weeks ago and you said i was wrong, these wars and our place in them are inciting the terrorists to act, not intimidate them into passivity

    they do not think the way you are suggesting, and bush's miscalculation almost cost thousands of lives.

    My turn

    never said Bush was right - said he's not the answer

    Results are results - no terror attacks on US soil in almost 5 years - how can u not call that success - zero attacks - could we have done better?

    Stopping terror requires sacrifice - requires our military to be involved - no other way - not pretty, but reality

    We are not inciting terrorists - they are incited - they hate us - a little, a lot, they hate us. They are not going attack us because of Iraq - they don't need a reason. There's only 1 way to stop them - and it's not by asking them their favorite color - it's by eliminating them. They are a cancer that threatens not only the U.S. but the entire civilized world.

    "We incite them" - that's a joke. You write that at as if they have any regard for our way of life. As is if by backing off, we would get them to stop.

    Until the next time

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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    im sure you are suprised that I think you are wrong.

    If the bush admin was doing such a good job, we wouldnt be in fear as we speak of an imminent attack.

    but

    that is just my opinion

    back on topic of the tread....

    Bush will not be allowed to try this maneuver, and this thread is just small cookies compared to the shredding hes going to face at the hands of the anti war tsunami that is washing over american politics.

    he is toast and this will be fodder for the machine. He is a lame duck, and even his own party members are going to toss him to the wolves on this one.

    I will wait for the traditional I told you so dance

    Have you noticed i seem to do alot of those?

    just checking

  14. #14

    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by cynicus View Post
    I was appalled when I read the polls that said that a majority of Americans still believe Saddam had wmd's, poison gases, ties to Islamic fundimentalists, etc. The whole pitiful bunch of lies.

    Yes, and Adolf Hitler and Stalin were the most compassionate people on earth...

    Do you realize that Saddam Hussein is responsible for the mass genocide of 230,000 Kurds and Shi'ites by using chemical weapons such as mustard gas, Sarin, and nerve agents? It is clear that Saddam was a threat. Even Bill Clinton specualted that Sadam had WMDs (remember Operation Desert Fox in 1998?)

    Do I think the U.S. handled Iraq properly: NO.
    But do I think Saddam was a threat to the U.S. and had dirty secrets up his sleaves, including WMDs: YES

    You can say what you want, but I'm sure you guys have already expressed your opinions by now.

    About this article: it is a victory for the U.S. that they foiled the plot. We have improved national security tremendously. C'mon liquid bombs?!?! That is pretty tricky and I'm amazed that officials even got it. Islamic extremists have always hated us, whether the U.S. was under Bush, Clinton, Reagan, or Carter. That's a fact.

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    In Loving Memory Andreus's Avatar
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by lickya42000 View Post
    Yes, and Adolf Hitler and Stalin were the most compassionate people on earth...

    Do you realize that Saddam Hussein is responsible for the mass genocide of 230,000 Kurds and Shi'ites by using chemical weapons such as mustard gas, Sarin, and nerve agents? It is clear that Saddam was a threat. Even Bill Clinton specualted that Sadam had WMDs (remember Operation Desert Fox in 1998?)

    Do I think the U.S. handled Iraq properly: NO.
    But do I think Saddam was a threat to the U.S. and had dirty secrets up his sleaves, including WMDs: YES

    You can say what you want, but I'm sure you guys have already expressed your opinions by now.

    About this article: it is a victory for the U.S. that they foiled the plot. We have improved national security tremendously. C'mon liquid bombs?!?! That is pretty tricky and I'm amazed that officials even got it. Islamic extremists have always hated us, whether the U.S. was under Bush, Clinton, Reagan, or Carter. That's a fact.

    what does this ahve to do with bush's desire to use a terrorist attack as a political gain for himself?

    i am confused.

    and BTW... Islamic extremists havent always hated america

  16. #16

    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    I know it was pretty random, but I was just reacting to the comment...

  17. #17
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Of COURSE he's trying to use it for gain; he's a politician, and that'ss what they do.

    BTW, CHance -- we ARE inciting them! That isn't to say that there wouodn't be terrorists hating us without needing any inciting on our part, but it isn't an all-or-nothing game: thanks to the U.S. being in Iraq, recruitment by Islamist terrorist organizations is up.
    Which is to say, Bush IS part of the problem. He's sincere, and trying hard, but he's making a mess -- what my sister the engineer would call "lousy quality control".
    We should have quit with Afghanistan; the connection there was unmistakable, and anyone with half a smattering of history knowledge of the region would have known we'd have our hands full there without playing other power games.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #18
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    I said that I was not going to comment in this forum again; however, as a result of todays so-called foiled plot, I feel the need to say something:

    This plot (if indeed it was really a plot), is a bit of a hoax. Yes, M15 and he CIA overhead conversations; however, there was never really a plot to blow up the airplanes. This is being used a political ploy to keep people in fear. Bush needs to try to come back as the "great leader" of the United States as he did when 9/11 occurred.

    I have connections to the airlines industry as a member of my family is a purser with one of the major international airlines. Let's just keep every person at bay so that they will do whatever the government says to do. The news in America is only about this plot and saying that people will have to live their lives differently from now on.

    Get a grip folks! This is all about politics and nothing more. Go ahead that believe all of this and give up all of your rights.

    My family member was working today when this occurred and all crewmembers were really "pissed off" at what happened. They were actually told nothing for hours.

    This is so much like the Third Reich, especially since the Democrats are now so anti-war and Bush and his cronies need help in staying in power during the upcoming elections this fall in the United Sates.

    I cannot believe that people are being put into shackeles and they are buying into it. You gentlemen should just listen to CNN and its overblown broadcasting.....

  19. #19
    Student of Human Nature NickCole's Avatar
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    While it's true that all effective politicians exploit events for political gain, it is particularly cynical --I think outrageous-- when the President and Vice-President of the United States use terrorist activity to lie about the opposition about something as vital as national security. It shows both disrespect for and lack of concern about the safety of the American people.

    Democrats and Republicans disagree, though not as much as Republicans pretend, about how to approach the problem of terrorism but it is untrue to say that Democrats are "weak on terrorism" or that their view on how to handle terrorism helps out terrorists. Every single Democrat in Congress supported the war in Afghanistan, which is where terrorists that threaten us were primarily gathered (they were NOT in Iraq, and neither were WMD -- but even so, rallying behind their President, they supported that as well). Every single Democrat in Congress supports resources going to border security, Airport security, more vigilant import container inspection, and they have in overwhelming majority voted for Bush's budget requests when it comes to homeland security. Where, exactly, are Democrats weak on terrorism -- holding Bush & Co accountable for their failures in Iraq? How is that weak on terrorism -- seems like a strong stand to insist public officials be held accountable for their missteps in fighting terrorism, which is helpful rather than weak.

    So exploiting terrorist plots to propagandize Democrats as "weak on terrorism," and to go after a newly nominated Senatorial candidate, is more than garden-variety political exploitation of events. It's being profoundly dishonest about the Democratic position on national security -- and doing so seeks to mislead the American people the same way Bush & Co misled us about Iraq. This is not about farm prices or the environment, this is terrorism and national security; is there no line to be drawn where truth will be sacrosanct from our President and Vice-President?

  20. #20
    Student of Human Nature NickCole's Avatar
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Giuliani on Lieberman: “On this particular issue, he believes we have to be on the offense against terrorism. And I don’t know why his political party won’t allow him the kind of flexibility to have the view point.”
    More of the same.

    This is flatly dishonest.

    The Democratic position has been to be on the offense against terrorism from day one.

    Democrats voted to attack Afghanistan and they even voted to allow Bush to attack Iraq.

    Democrats are now insisting Bush & Co be held accountable for their failure in Iraq. That, also, is being on offense against terrorism -- if we don't look honestly at our mistakes and fix them then we can't get it right.

    Republicans are lying about issues involving our national security and that is not acceptable.



  21. #21

    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by crlcxll View Post

    This plot (if indeed it was really a plot), is a bit of a hoax. Yes, M15 and he CIA overhead conversations; however, there was never really a plot to blow up the airplanes. This is being used a political ploy to keep people in fear. Bush needs to try to come back as the "great leader" of the United States as he did when 9/11 occurred.
    And you base this on what, other than a reflexive disdain and arrogance towards Americans?

    Got a cite?

    Ever heard of that great pro-American institution, the BBC? They in on it, too?

    Sheesh. I suppose I just should be glad that it's not Mossad's fault. That'll have to wait till tomorrow. Guess they were still busy with the disinformation campaign from WTC-7.

  22. #22
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    It's safe to say that during an election year, both sides will try and take advantage of the situation. No doubt the spin doctors will be out in full force.

    However, the one plus Bush can spin out of this is how the US helped in the investigation. According to Time Magazine, the NSA tapping program (which has been universally panned by the Democrats) provided chat intercepts that helped lead to the arrests. http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...225453,00.html

    If this proves to be true, then the Bush administration can at least take some credit and get some positive spin out of this. It would shoe that we are getting something accomplished and that this particular program works.

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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by lickya42000 View Post
    Yes, and Adolf Hitler and Stalin were the most compassionate people on earth...

    Do you realize that Saddam Hussein is responsible for the mass genocide of 230,000 Kurds and Shi'ites by using chemical weapons such as mustard gas, Sarin, and nerve agents? It is clear that Saddam was a threat. Even Bill Clinton specualted that Sadam had WMDs (remember Operation Desert Fox in 1998?)

    Do I think the U.S. handled Iraq properly: NO.
    But do I think Saddam was a threat to the U.S. and had dirty secrets up his sleaves, including WMDs: YES

    You can say what you want, but I'm sure you guys have already expressed your opinions by now.

    About this article: it is a victory for the U.S. that they foiled the plot. We have improved national security tremendously. C'mon liquid bombs?!?! That is pretty tricky and I'm amazed that officials even got it. Islamic extremists have always hated us, whether the U.S. was under Bush, Clinton, Reagan, or Carter. That's a fact.
    Are you flag waving and claiming that the good ole US foiled the plot? Silly old me thought that it was the UK and Pakistani intelligence services that foiled it. Somehow, I don't think this was a "victory for the US". It may have been good for the US, but that is a whole different thing from what it is you claim.

  24. #24
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by jkirk3000 View Post
    It's safe to say that during an election year, both sides will try and take advantage of the situation. No doubt the spin doctors will be out in full force.

    However, the one plus Bush can spin out of this is how the US helped in the investigation. According to Time Magazine, the NSA tapping program (which has been universally panned by the Democrats) provided chat intercepts that helped lead to the arrests. http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...225453,00.html

    If this proves to be true, then the Bush administration can at least take some credit and get some positive spin out of this. It would shoe that we are getting something accomplished and that this particular program works.
    I take no issue with that kind of exploitation. It's honest. And if Democrats were wrong they'll have to take the hit for that.

    It's the lies about issues of national security to scare the American people into voting Republican that I think is flat-out wrong and indefensible. I don't care who does it, it's wrong.

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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by NickCole View Post
    I take no issue with that kind of exploitation. It's honest. And if Democrats were wrong they'll have to take the hit for that.

    It's the lies about issues of national security to scare the American people into voting Republican that I think is flat-out wrong and indefensible. I don't care who does it, it's wrong.

    Which particular lies are you refering to? Seems to me both sides are guilty of hyperbole - and that is the nature of the beast that we call politics.

    Perhaps I give my fellow Americans too much credit, but I think/hope the vast majority of us can read through the propaganda and see the truth.

  26. #26
    Student of Human Nature NickCole's Avatar
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by jkirk3000 View Post
    Which particular lies are you refering to? Seems to me both sides are guilty of hyperbole - and that is the nature of the beast that we call politics.
    This:

    “On this particular issue, he believes we have to be on the offense against terrorism. And I don’t know why his political party won’t allow him the kind of flexibility to have the view point.”

    is a lie.

    The Democratic party not only "allows" Lieberman and everyone else "the kind of flexibility to have the view point," that view point is exactly in line with the Democratic Party's view point.

    All day yesterday we heard these kinds of lies from Republicans -- you can call it hyperbole if you want but it's lies and it's long past time we call it what it is. It is a lie to say that Democrats are "weak on terror" or haven't been "on the offense against terrorism" or are "anti-American" or to align them with Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. That's not hyperbole, it's lying. And it's lying with the destructive purpose of dividing Americans against one another on issues of national security.

    Perhaps I give my fellow Americans too much credit, but I think/hope the vast majority of us can read through the propaganda and see the truth.
    If half of Americans still believe that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction in 2003, clearly they cannot read through the lies of BushRepublican fear propaganda.

    > Half of U.S. still believes Iraq had WMD
    http://tinyurl.com/f956x

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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    A storm went through my area yesterday and the electric was off for most of the day. Because of it, I wasn't able to listen to Rush Limbaugh. I'll join this discussion this afternoon and give you my opinion just as soon as Rush gives it to me.

  28. #28
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    I thought the British foiled the plot.

    Bush can't even speak English.

  29. #29
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by JDsmagik View Post
    I thought the British foiled the plot.

    Bush can't even speak English.
    the Brits and the Pakistanis

    In spite of a certain man from york trying to say that muslims arent doing enough to stop terrorism, they actually did stop the attack this time.

    Not bush

    Not the repubs, nor there cockeyed half baked plans to stop the evildoers.

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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by NickCole View Post

    Democrats are now insisting Bush & Co be held accountable for their failure in Iraq. That, also, is being on offense against terrorism -- if we don't look honestly at our mistakes and fix them then we can't get it right.
    Then Democrats need to find an undergrad history major to educate them -- the brief period we've been in Iraq isn't enough time to judge whether there's been a failure or not.
    I think my dad -- who's a Democrat -- is right when he says too many higher-ups in his party believe in magic... but, then, so does Rumsfeld (with his "shock and awe" act). Changing a country is something that is a matter of generations, not mere months.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Then Democrats need to find an undergrad history major to educate them -- the brief period we've been in Iraq isn't enough time to judge whether there's been a failure or not.
    I think my dad -- who's a Democrat -- is right when he says too many higher-ups in his party believe in magic... but, then, so does Rumsfeld (with his "shock and awe" act). Changing a country is something that is a matter of generations, not mere months.
    It has not been mere months.

    It has been three and a half years.

    Furthermore, Bush & Co's failure in Iraq is not a single failure, it's many failures that have resulted in a huge mess, from not properly securing the country in the beginning, to giving Halliburton a no-bid contract (the corporation Dick Cheney once ran ended up ripping off American taxpayers to the tune of millions of dollars while failing to deliver the services it was contracted for) to not properly utilizing the Iraqi Army or training the Iraqi police force, to not rebuilding the infrastructure Bush & Co destroyed, to allowing the country to devolve into civil war and then pretending it wasn't happening ... the list is very very long.

    Bush & Co have not been held accountable by the Republican controlled Congress and that's a failure on the part of Congress. The American people are clearly growing angrier about this, as illustrated by Ned Lamont's victory over Lieberman in Connecticut. Doesn't matter if they're Democratic or Republican -- Congressmen who appease Bush & Co's failures in Iraq are going to be held accountable themselves. And it's damn well about time.

  32. #32
    ds_writr
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    I am fairly certain that THE TERRORISTS would have sought "political" gain had they been successful in this.

  33. #33
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by JDsmagik View Post
    I thought the British foiled the plot.

    Bush can't even speak English.
    they did but bush will take credit to justfy his war in iraq.

  34. #34
    stevenavy2003
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    I guess that's why politicians who are head of state/government have exceptionally thick skin. Their opponents will blame them for absolutely everything and their supporters will credit them for absolutely everything.

    To assume that any president has complete control over every single person in their political party is juvenile ignorance. There will always be someone seeking to capitalize on any news break, good or bad. That's politics. We should do better, but like the rest of the world, we don't.

    George W. Bush IS the President of the United States. He makes good decisions. He makes bad decisions. Just like every president before him........and every one that will follow.

    Guys, I'm not praising the man for everything he does. But, geez he's not personally responsible for everything that happens. He may be accountable, but let's be real. No one man/woman can micro-manage every detail or US or world policy.

    Ok, I'm done.

  35. #35
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by crlcxll View Post
    I said that I was not going to comment in this forum again; however, as a result of todays so-called foiled plot, I feel the need to say something:

    This plot (if indeed it was really a plot), is a bit of a hoax. Yes, M15 and he CIA overhead conversations; however, there was never really a plot to blow up the airplanes. This is being used a political ploy to keep people in fear. Bush needs to try to come back as the "great leader" of the United States as he did when 9/11 occurred.

    I have connections to the airlines industry as a member of my family is a purser with one of the major international airlines. Let's just keep every person at bay so that they will do whatever the government says to do. The news in America is only about this plot and saying that people will have to live their lives differently from now on.

    Get a grip folks! This is all about politics and nothing more. Go ahead that believe all of this and give up all of your rights.

    My family member was working today when this occurred and all crewmembers were really "pissed off" at what happened. They were actually told nothing for hours.

    This is so much like the Third Reich, especially since the Democrats are now so anti-war and Bush and his cronies need help in staying in power during the upcoming elections this fall in the United Sates.

    I cannot believe that people are being put into shackeles and they are buying into it. You gentlemen should just listen to CNN and its overblown broadcasting.....

    And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?

    George Bush may be President of the most powerful country, but since when is he the Great and Powerful Oz who can control the rest of the world?

  36. #36
    Cousin
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by crlcxll View Post
    I said that I was not going to comment in this forum again; however, as a result of todays so-called foiled plot, I feel the need to say something:

    This plot (if indeed it was really a plot), is a bit of a hoax. Yes, M15 and he CIA overhead conversations; however, there was never really a plot to blow up the airplanes. This is being used a political ploy to keep people in fear. Bush needs to try to come back as the "great leader" of the United States as he did when 9/11 occurred.

    I have connections to the airlines industry as a member of my family is a purser with one of the major international airlines. Let's just keep every person at bay so that they will do whatever the government says to do. The news in America is only about this plot and saying that people will have to live their lives differently from now on.

    Get a grip folks! This is all about politics and nothing more. Go ahead that believe all of this and give up all of your rights.

    My family member was working today when this occurred and all crewmembers were really "pissed off" at what happened. They were actually told nothing for hours.

    This is so much like the Third Reich, especially since the Democrats are now so anti-war and Bush and his cronies need help in staying in power during the upcoming elections this fall in the United Sates.

    I cannot believe that people are being put into shackeles and they are buying into it. You gentlemen should just listen to CNN and its overblown broadcasting.....
    One has to wonder what world some people live in to have views like this? What you are saying is Bush got the Pakistani's to make this all up and conspire with the Britsh so that Bush can look good. Oh and CNN is in on it too.

    I agree, I will never, ever take anything you say seriously again. Not that I really did before.

  37. #37

    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    I wonder how MI5 got the terrorist to make a suicide tape?

  38. #38
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by NickCole View Post
    It has not been mere months.

    It has been three and a half years.

    Furthermore, Bush & Co's failure in Iraq is not a single failure, it's many failures that have resulted in a huge mess, from not properly securing the country in the beginning, to giving Halliburton a no-bid contract (the corporation Dick Cheney once ran ended up ripping off American taxpayers to the tune of millions of dollars while failing to deliver the services it was contracted for) to not properly utilizing the Iraqi Army or training the Iraqi police force, to not rebuilding the infrastructure Bush & Co destroyed, to allowing the country to devolve into civil war and then pretending it wasn't happening ... the list is very very long.

    Bush & Co have not been held accountable by the Republican controlled Congress and that's a failure on the part of Congress. The American people are clearly growing angrier about this, as illustrated by Ned Lamont's victory over Lieberman in Connecticut. Doesn't matter if they're Democratic or Republican -- Congressmen who appease Bush & Co's failures in Iraq are going to be held accountable themselves. And it's damn well about time.
    Three and a half years, in terms of operations like this, is mere months. When the months hit double digits, start counting years.

    Haliburton, etc., don't fall into the "failure" category; they're irrelevant to the operation. Call them incredibly stupid corruption for which both our executives ought to be impeached, but they have nothing to do with the strategic picture.

    "Allowing the country to fall into civil war" is an oversimplification. NO ONE would have stood for what it would have taken to keep that from happening, once Rumsfeld had stupidly decided to disband the Iraqi army -- yes, that organization would have been rife with problems, but it would also have been a massive collection of manpower that could have been kept busy keeping a lid on things -- and using them would have been a bit of a signal that we meant Iraq to belong to the Iraquis, not the U.S.

    Ned Lamont's victory says nothing about "the American people"; it's a statement of how much easier it is to energize the fringes of either party -- and how stupid many people can be.

    What amazes me in this whole mess is that no one has shot Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld yet, especially with the sort of grandstanding that goes on. But, then, our school system has been in the hands of a liberal establishment more focused on having students feel good about themselves than learn to think, so maybe it isn't so surprising.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  39. #39
    Student of Human Nature NickCole's Avatar
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Three and a half years, in terms of operations like this, is mere months. When the months hit double digits, start counting years.
    We've been there 41 months. That looks like double digits to me.

    Haliburton, etc., don't fall into the "failure" category; they're irrelevant to the operation. Call them incredibly stupid corruption for which both our executives ought to be impeached, but they have nothing to do with the strategic picture.
    Wow.

    That's a big chunk of failed operations you're willing to simply dismiss. And that's exactly the problem a majority of the American people are now having with the Republican controlled Congress.

    "Allowing the country to fall into civil war" is an oversimplification.
    It's a simple way of stating the truth.

    NO ONE would have stood for what it would have taken to keep that from happening,
    If you're unwilling to do whatever it takes to prevail then you have no business starting a war.

    It's bad enough that neocons are warmongers but that they're squeamish about competently getting the job done no matter what it takes makes them doubly dangerous and unfit for public office.

    Ned Lamont's victory says nothing about "the American people"; it's a statement of how much easier it is to energize the fringes of either party -- and how stupid many people can be.
    According to a new Zogby poll out today, 79% of Democrats nationwide are glad Lamont prevailed over Lieberman. That's not a fringe.

    I see nothing stupid about holding elected officials accountable.

    What amazes me in this whole mess is that no one has shot Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld yet, especially with the sort of grandstanding that goes on.
    People like Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld don't get shot. People like JFK, RFK, Martin Luther King, Jr. get shot. That's because the people who assassinate public officials are not the people who oppose Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld -- they don't go around shooting people, they use lawful means to address their concern, like pushing Congress to hold Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld accountable.

    But, then, our school system has been in the hands of a liberal establishment more focused on having students feel good about themselves than learn to think, so maybe it isn't so surprising.
    Conservative Republicans have been in absolute power in Washington, and majority power nationwide, for several years now, and what has been accomplished with our public schools? Or is it all still the fault of liberals even when they have no power to make changes or determine where money is spent?

  40. #40

    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Conservative Republicans have been in absolute power in Washington, and majority power nationwide, for several years now, and what has been accomplished with our public schools?
    Well the No Child Left Behind Act was pushed in the public schools......oh wait. Nothing's been done by the Republican Congress for our schools or for the country itself, Not a damn thing.

    Bush is of course using this terror plot foil to his advantage to put the US sheep under a reign of fear. He and Cheney knows that if the majority of people are under fear then there will be no questions asked. Of course there are people in the US who will not fall for it, and those are the people who are against the Iraqi war. I will not fall in fear because the government says I should be afraid.

  41. #41
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by NickCole View Post
    We've been there 41 months. That looks like double digits to me.
    I meant "pass double digits" -- my bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by NickCole View Post
    That's a big chunk of failed operations you're willing to simply dismiss. And that's exactly the problem a majority of the American people are now having with the Republican controlled Congress.
    Haliburton and that stuff has nothing to do with "operations" -- it's mere side dishes. MAYBE if you look at whether they've actually done any work, it MIGHT be "operations", but that's dubious.

    Quote Originally Posted by NickCole View Post
    If you're unwilling to do whatever it takes to prevail then you have no business starting a war.
    Then you would have voted for a draft, if you were in Congress? You think Kerry should have introduced a bill authorizing a draft? That's what you're saying!

    Quote Originally Posted by NickCole View Post
    It's bad enough that neocons are warmongers but that they're squeamish about competently getting the job done no matter what it takes makes them doubly dangerous and unfit for public office.
    LOL
    OMG, that's so off-base!
    The warmongers aren't squeamish at all; they just have to cater to the wus liberals who squirm at the thought of a rug burn! So what you're saying is that because they DON'T ignore the feelings of their political opponents, they are unfit for office! You'd think they were more fit if they used press gangs and rounded up enough people to serve as cannon fodder, and said "To hell with casualties; we're doing this our way!" -- because that's also what you're saying!

    Dude, you don't know what warmongers are! I KNOW some -- and they (I kid you not) believe it would be perfectly proper to:
    1. empty the prisons of violent offenders, train and arm them, and just turn them loose in Iraq as death squads
    2. round up the country's homeless, forcefully enlist them, and send them off to Iraq
    3. require people who go on unemployment to join the Army or lose their benefits
    4. use cruise missiles to take out EVERY military or other government installation in Iran
    5. oh, yeah -- abandon "don't ask, don't tell", and put gays in front of firing squads, to show the world we're "righteous"

    Quote Originally Posted by NickCole View Post
    According to a new Zogby poll out today, 79% of Democrats nationwide are glad Lamont prevailed over Lieberman. That's not a fringe.
    That's why the Republicans have an edge in Congress -- the majority of Democrats don't want anyone who actually THINKS!
    My mom has almost never voted Democrat in her life, but last time, if it had been Lieberman-Kerry, instead of the other way around, she would have -- and if she would have, there are others who would have, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by NickCole View Post
    I see nothing stupid about holding elected officials accountable.
    We don't have a way to hold them accountable until we can vote "None Of The Above", and avoid the garbage the PTBs offer us. Electing an inexperienced nobody over a man of principle is hardly haolding anyone accountable.
    That's one of our big problems in democracies the way they're set up -- political power overrules actual choice, because there's no way to pick someone who hasn't already been vetted by the powers behind the scenes and the money interests -- or to throw out an entire political party! If we really had democracy, and if the American public could actually make choices, the Democrat and Republican parties would have died several generations ago. Accountability isn't about being able to throw out one guy and put another bastard in his place; it's being able to throw out the idiots running the system and try on another set for a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by NickCole View Post
    Conservative Republicans have been in absolute power in Washington, and majority power nationwide, for several years now, and what has been accomplished with our public schools? Or is it all still the fault of liberals even when they have no power to make changes or determine where money is spent?
    It's funny how you whine about "absolute power", while the actual conservatives whine about needing an actual majority.
    No one has held "absolute power" in Washington since FDR, really. The Republicans barely have majorities in each house of Congress, and the conservatives (so-called; they aren't) don't have a majority anywhere (thank God!). They have enough power to get a few things done -- but they wouldn't have even passed the "PATRIOT" Act without Democrat cooperation!

    As for the schools, a liberal agenda has been running them for two generations, producing two generations of morally bankrupt graduates, resulting in a backlash by the religious fascists. Nothing has been accomplished in our public schools with Bush in office, just as nothing was accomplished before him for three presidents, because no one wants to effect real change; they just want to grandstand. "No Child Left Behind" has damaged public education even while private schools improve, but that's been true of every public-education effort to come out of Washington. Even if it had been a good idea, it wouldn't have accomplished anything, because so much of the bureaucracy is anti-Bush that little or nothing would have gotten implemented.

    None of which really has anything to do with Bush seeking political gain from this, except that those two generations of liberal-trained students don't know how to think, so they don't see through the crap either major party dishes out -- which is the way both sides like it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  42. #42
    Student of Human Nature NickCole's Avatar
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Haliburton and that stuff has nothing to do with "operations" -- it's mere side dishes.
    It's all one big operation. Halliburton's role is too enormous to reasonably dismiss that way. And from the time of looting there have been failures piled upon failures with the military as well.

    Then you would have voted for a draft, if you were in Congress? You think Kerry should have introduced a bill authorizing a draft? That's what you're saying!
    That's not what I said. Putting words in other people's mouths is dishonest.

    The warmongers aren't squeamish at all; they just have to cater to the wus liberals who squirm at the thought of a rug burn!
    Neocon BushRepublicans don't cater to a single word liberals say. You dismiss liberal contribution and then blame them for your failures.

    So what you're saying is that because they DON'T ignore the feelings of their political opponents, they are unfit for office!
    That's not what I said.

    Bush & Co have in fact ignored the "feelings" of their political opponents. Unless, like Lieberman, their "feelings" are the same as Bush & Co.

    You'd think they were more fit if they used press gangs and rounded up enough people to serve as cannon fodder, and said "To hell with casualties; we're doing this our way!" -- because that's also what you're saying!
    You have a bad habit of mischaracterizing what others say. It's dishonest.

    Dude, you don't know what warmongers are! I KNOW some -- and they (I kid you not) believe it would be perfectly proper to:
    1. empty the prisons of violent offenders, train and arm them, and just turn them loose in Iraq as death squads
    2. round up the country's homeless, forcefully enlist them, and send them off to Iraq
    3. require people who go on unemployment to join the Army or lose their benefits
    4. use cruise missiles to take out EVERY military or other government installation in Iran
    5. oh, yeah -- abandon "don't ask, don't tell", and put gays in front of firing squads, to show the world we're "righteous"
    If that's true then not only are neocon BushRepublicans careless warmongers and incompetent at war, they don't even have the balls to do what they believe is "perfectly proper" when they're in total power. BushRepublicans have for several years controlled the White House and both Houses of Congress. From what you describe they're even bigger simps than I'd realized.

    Electing an inexperienced nobody over a man of principle is hardly haolding anyone accountable.
    Ned Lamont is not "an inexperienced nobody," he is a smart informed mature man who made a success of a business he started up and performed competently as Selectman of his town. He also just won nomination from Democratic voters in his state to run for Senator -- he won over an incumbent who was 18 years in office and very powerful. And Joe Lieberman is not a man of principle. If he were, he'd have stepped down, respected the voters of his party rather than embracing the money and support of leaders in the Republican Party.

    That's one of our big problems in democracies the way they're set up -- political power overrules actual choice, because there's no way to pick someone who hasn't already been vetted by the powers behind the scenes and the money interests -- or to throw out an entire political party!
    Ned Lamont was not vetted by anybody when he ran against Lieberman. The Democratic Party suppported Lieberman in the Primary, not Lamont. Voters, though, chose Lamont.

    It's funny how you whine about "absolute power", while the actual conservatives whine about needing an actual majority.
    Nobody's whining. People expressing an opinion is not whining. Why be so disrespectful and gratuitously insulting?

    No one has held "absolute power" in Washington since FDR, really.
    That's simply not true. Republicans control the White House, the Senate, the House of Representatives and the Supreme Court. That's absolute power. And look at the mess they've made with it.

    As for the schools, a liberal agenda has been running them for two generations, producing two generations of morally bankrupt graduates,
    What, specifically, is the liberal agenda that you believe has produced two generations of morally bankrupt graduates? And why have conservatives been unable to participate, especially as they've wielded such tremendous power in the past several years?

  43. #43
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    NickCole, you strike me as one of those Americans with a "government is magic" belief.
    The liberals have dominated public education for at least two generations, because they dominate the teachers colleges, the administrative structures, the unions, etc. They have emphasized students' feeling good over actual learning, being a "productive citizen" over being an independent sovereign individual, self-esteem over skills and achievement. All together, that combination teachers amorality and encourages the conviction that society owes them a living.
    A few years of limited power do not turn such a foul heritage around, especially when the "conservatives" in charge simply pick up a modified version of what the teachers' unions want -- furthering the liberal ruin of our schools.
    Believe me, it would be worse if Bush & Co. did have absolute power. It seems to me you have a limited understanding of the way Washington works, because they don't have anything close to it. Bush & Co. don't control Congress or the Supreme Court (although they've managed a serious effort at the latter). And when I say conservatives are whining about not having a majority, I mean just that -- they come off as sniveling children crying that it isn't fair.

    If you think the conclusions I drew from your statements are dishonest, maybe you'd better start thinking through what you say, because every item I posted was a direct and very clear outcome of what you said.

    I don't understand what you think "operations" are in Iraq. We started talking in military terms, and you dragged in things that have nothing to do with that. And whether or not Haliburton is corrupt has little or nothing to do with success there -- in fact, corruption might actually be a good thing, because it would show the Iraqis that we aren't so different from them.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  44. #44

    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Kulindahr I can't let your description of the liberal teachers union destruction of american education slip by. Its one of those things conservatives believe if they repeat enough it will aquire the status of fact.

    You claim the system produces amoral graduates who believe they are owed a living, who "feel good" about themselves but have no actual skills yet the american economy which those graduates have created in the last 30 yrs is the most dynamic in the world and is the envy of the world.

    How could that be if the liberals have wrecked american education?

    How could so many poorly educated people produce such a successful economy?

  45. #45
    Student of Human Nature NickCole's Avatar
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    NickCole, you strike me as one of those Americans with a "government is magic" belief.
    Oh please! I'm fifty years old. I'd have to be blind, deaf, dumb and incredibly stupid to believe our government is --or ever could be-- magic!

    The liberals have dominated public education for at least two generations, because they dominate the teachers colleges, the administrative structures, the unions, etc. They have emphasized students' feeling good over actual learning, being a "productive citizen" over being an independent sovereign individual, self-esteem over skills and achievement. All together, that combination teachers amorality and encourages the conviction that society owes them a living.
    A great many Americans are well educated and successful, earning a good living rather than believing that society owes them a living, and behave with a decent morality. If schools were responsible for teaching amoral behavior and a sense of entitlement then those character traits would be much more widespread. We learn about morality and work ethic from our parents, from our home life, not school. It isn't, and shouldn't be, the function of our schools to teach morality or work ethic or personal responsibility. They're having a rough enough time teaching reading and writing!

    A few years of limited power do not turn such a foul heritage around, especially when the "conservatives" in charge simply pick up a modified version of what the teachers' unions want -- furthering the liberal ruin of our schools.
    Oh God! Such drama!

    Our schools are not ruined. There are problems that need to be addressed. And Republicans sure do like to carry on about it but having control of the White House and Congress hasn't resulted in any substantive contribution from them. Even if government can't fix the school system, the government sure contributes a lot of money and exerts a lot of control over it.

    Believe me, it would be worse if Bush & Co. did have absolute power. It seems to me you have a limited understanding of the way Washington works, because they don't have anything close to it. Bush & Co. don't control Congress or the Supreme Court (although they've managed a serious effort at the latter).
    You continue to misrepresent what I write.

    I never said Bush & Co control Congress or the Supreme Court. I said Republicans control the White House, both Houses of Congress and the Supreme Court. And they do.

    If you think the conclusions I drew from your statements are dishonest, maybe you'd better start thinking through what you say, because every item I posted was a direct and very clear outcome of what you said.
    Maybe I was too quick to call you dishonest. Maybe you have a reading comprehension problem or something. But whatever it is, you misrepresent what I write.

    I don't understand what you think "operations" are in Iraq. We started talking in military terms, and you dragged in things that have nothing to do with that.
    I never discussed operations in Iraq in strictly military terms because when discussing Bush & Co's failure in Iraq I believe it's much broader than simply a military failure on their part.

    In the first of your posts on the subject that I responded to, you referred to "changing a country," which is the part I highlited and specifically spoke to. "Changing a country" the way BushRepublicans talk about changing Iraq involves a great deal more than military operations.

  46. #46
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    The economy is healthy in spite of what's coming out of our high schools.

    My sister is head of quality control at a circuit board plant. Because of her background in education, she spends a fair portion of her time teacahing remedial courses to high school graduates -- courses covering such things as fractions, reading maps, using a library, alphabetizing... all things that should have been learned by the seventh grade. These are kids who graduated with at least a 2.25 GPA, and a common complaint from them is that as long as they tried hard, they got good grades -- but she expects them to actually learn things, so they think she's mean. My sister-in-law, an engineer at Boeing, reports the same thing. And I've spent no small amount of time tutoring college freshmen who graduated with better than a 3.0 how to actually read, balance a checkbook, and more -- these are kids at the top of their classes, and they don't know who wrote the Declaration of Independence, can't name more than two rights protected in the Bill of Rights, can't find Washington, D.C. on a map, can't convert decimals to fractions or the reverse! They feel great about themselves -- but they're not prepared for anything useful.

    Among all these are a few who are determined to learn no matter what the system is doing, determined to succeed at what they like -- and they do so, in spite of the system.
    Meanwhile, the best-educated kids in the country are coming out of private schools, where the liberals don't hold sway, and home schools, where there isn't any bureaucracy to get in the way.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  47. #47
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Those who think the Republicans are in control -- or, as some have said, "absoulte power" -- in Washington need to look again at how the system works (or, as is so often the case, doesn't).

    For starters, the statment assumes a group of congresscritters who march in lockstep and do exactly what they are told by someone -- a notion that hasn't been the case for several generations at least.
    Second, "control" means they can get everything passed that they want, without worrying about opposition because it can't win a single issue -- which is far, far from the truth.
    Third, it means they don't have to worry about filibusters or any such thing because they have enough votes to override any efforts of that sort -- which they don't.

    That the Republicans do NOT have anything near such power in Washington is easily demonstrated by reference to the TSA and the program for arming pilots. The program was mandated by Congress, supported by every Republican... and the TSA diddled around doing everything in its power to NOT implement the program. At Republican urging, Congress ordered the TSA to move faster and stop dragging things out -- with little result. If Republicans were in control, the TSA would have been bypassed, and airline pilots sent to whichever local organizations train those who legally carry firearms, such as police, the NRA, even the Pink Pistols... and every last airline pilot in the country, or who flies into the country, would now be trained and carrying a sidearm for the safety of his crew, craft, and passengers/cargo.

    Of course, if the Republicans were really in control, along with the useful programs like arming the pilots, we'd also have increased censorship, greater arbitrary police power, and maybe even morality monitors to keep an eye on us all -- so we can be glad they aren't.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  48. #48
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    ... That the Republicans do NOT have anything near such power in Washington is easily demonstrated by reference to the TSA and the program for arming pilots. The program was mandated by Congress, supported by every Republican... and the TSA diddled around doing everything in its power to NOT implement the program. At Republican urging, Congress ordered the TSA to move faster and stop dragging things out -- with little result. If Republicans were in control, the TSA would have been bypassed, and airline pilots sent to whichever local organizations train those who legally carry firearms, such as police, the NRA, even the Pink Pistols... and every last airline pilot in the country, or who flies into the country, would now be trained and carrying a sidearm for the safety of his crew, craft, and passengers/cargo.
    You are wrong about what happened, I've heard that spin before and clearly your grasp of "facts" is heavily tainted by right wing nut opinion "reporting."

    Admiral Loy, head of the TSA, approved the program's training and operational details the day before Congress' deadline.

    This, below, is from a March 3, 2003 article in Air Safety Weekly:

    An initiative to arm volunteer U.S. airline pilots with handguns took a major step forward last week when Adm. James Loy, head of the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), approved the program's selection, training and operational details. ...

    The [Arming Pilots Against Terrorism Act] required the TSA to develop a training program by Feb. 25 addressing not only handgun training, but also how the guns would be transported and stowed and, on those flights with federal air marshals (FAMs), how the armed pilots, designated FFDOs [federal flight deck officers] would interact with them.

    On Feb. 24 Loy signed an action memorandum that culminated two months of negotiations with government and industry representatives, including the airlines and pilots unions.
    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...17/ai_98273718

    The Arming Pilots Against Terrorism Act, written and passed, as you pointed out, by Republicans, stipulated that pilots volunteer to participate. The TSA could not compel any pilot to carry a weapon, and adhering to the law, they did not. If you want to complain that too few pilots participated in the program, your criticism should be directed at the pilots who refused to volunteer or at the Republican controlled Congress that passed a law stipulating that the weapons carrying program be volunteer.

    You'll get no argument from me that the Republican controlled Congress, like the current Republican controlled White House is utterly incompetent.

  49. #49
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by NickCole View Post
    You are wrong about what happened, I've heard that spin before and clearly your grasp of "facts" is heavily tainted by right wing nut opinion "reporting."

    Admiral Loy, head of the TSA, approved the program's training and operational details the day before Congress' deadline.

    This, below, is from a March 3, 2003 article in Air Safety Weekly:



    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...17/ai_98273718

    The Arming Pilots Against Terrorism Act, written and passed, as you pointed out, by Republicans, stipulated that pilots volunteer to participate. The TSA could not compel any pilot to carry a weapon, and adhering to the law, they did not. If you want to complain that too few pilots participated in the program, your criticism should be directed at the pilots who refused to volunteer or at the Republican controlled Congress that passed a law stipulating that the weapons carrying program be volunteer.

    You'll get no argument from me that the Republican controlled Congress, like the current Republican controlled White House is utterly incompetent.
    Considering that my senators and many others got dozens of letters each from pilots frustrated because they weren't getting trained but were on a waiting list, the bureaucratic details you cite aren't terribly relevant. The TSA made a show of compliance, with little substance behind it.
    I do in fact criticise any pilots who refused to volunteer. It was once a requirement for pilots flying within the U.S. that they be armed -- it should be again. The volunteer part of protecting our skies should be... well, maybe a new thread would be better for that.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  50. #50
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    Re: Bush seeks political gains from foiled plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Considering that my senators and many others got dozens of letters each from pilots frustrated because they weren't getting trained but were on a waiting list, the bureaucratic details you cite aren't terribly relevant. The TSA made a show of compliance, with little substance behind it.
    What's your source for that?

    You state a lot of things in your posts but you never source your "information." And your "information" is often wrong.

    I do in fact criticise any pilots who refused to volunteer.
    On what grounds do you criticize them?

    They made a decision to have a career flying commercial jets, not be security officers who carry weapons. Being competent at the former doesn't mean one would be competent at the latter. Airline security need be no different from all other security: personnel trained in security and focused squarely on that ought to be the ones handling it. Pilots ought to be focused on flying the jet. A well designed security system, door, cameras, etc, ought to protect the cockpit from intrustion by terrorists. Security for the cabin ought to be the responsibility of security personnel and air marshals.

    It was once a requirement for pilots flying within the U.S. that they be armed -- it should be again.
    You're just flat-out dishonest, or very badly educated.

    This is the truth about pilots once being required to be armed:

    Until the 1950s, federal regulations required commercial pilots to be armed if they were flying planes carrying mail, a holdover from the days when airmail shipments were flown by military pilots.

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