What Happend to America ?

[DiaryOfAMadman]

What every happened to the United States of America? When did we become "the bad guy"? When did we become the international joke we now are? When did we loose our mighty military strength? When did we stop doing what was right and become the bully?

Elections

Look no further then Senators Clinton and Obama when it comes to one thing thats wrong with our country. We can even take it back a few months further lets say January when the new Democratic controlled congress assumed power.

It seems as if the American people do not care about answers or solutions. So far not one Democrat has come out to give any advice on ending the United States involvement in Iraq. They make it clear that President Bush is wrong, yet they give not a single idea how to fix the problem. The only thing in 2 months that the new congress has done was vote on a "Non Binding Resolution" (wich means all they wanted to do was publicly say SHAME ON YOU to the president). Where about to head into the month of March and the troop increase is still on schedule as it has been since the president made his announcement. Great Britan has decided to pull its troops out of Iraq, but the U.S. pledges to stay the course and increase our numbers there.

Now we have the election for the next President of the United States coming up and whats the top story behind the 2 leading democratic candidates? They're auguring over which millionaires are giving money to which candidate. I can't believe that they're discussing their fundraising and not any issues that involve any citizens or policy here in this country. Forget about Iraq, forget about the war on terror, forget about abortion, forget about soaring fuel prices, forget about high war costs, forget about the large deficit, forget about health care, forget about education, forget about the way the freedom act took away so many of our personal freedoms, forget about our fragmented military, and forget about rebuilding the post Katrina south. They have more important topics to discuss and thats where are we getting our campaign dollars from.

Why can't someone come out and present ANY SOLUTION to the American Public. Maybe a candidate or a politician in power can come and tell us where they stand on all or some of these issues and how they can be resolved. I don't even care if I disagree with their recomendations, I just want to hear someone throw something out there to be talked about and possible bring about a change.


Republicans vs Democrats

Fuck them all!

Republicans are saying that Democrats are not good leaders and give us a chance to get out of of the mess that we got into. This was the reason that President Bush was re-elected, to try and get the troops out of Iraq. They have the right to be smug hell they can come out and say "fine don't vote for us, but what's your other option?" They make a great point. Was John Kerry going to make a better president then Bush? Kerry never convinced the American people that he could, therefore he's sitting at home on his couch.

Democrats have no platform or any ideas. The Democrat party won the last national election in November because they campaigned on "everything has turned to shit under Republican control, although we have no ideas we know that everything that Republicans have done is wrong". That was it! That summed up in its entirety how the Democrats regained control of Congress. "We have no idea how to fix the problem, but we can't do any worse of a job".



I'll give Republicans credit for one thing. They will come out an initiate a big change regardless if its right or wrong. They'll jump right in over their heads about tax cuts, a war, or seeking to impeach a president. Democrats go out of their way to take no action whatsoever. It's like they just bury their heads in the sand and hope to weather the storm.


Humor?

Democrats and Republicans alike have no sense of humor when it comes to their mess-ups. I find it amazing that people well "rip apart comedians" for making jokes at the politicians running this country. They are comedians, they are not sitting on network TV hosting 60 minutes or moderating a political debate. Anytime you turn on a program and it features a comedian, you are doing so to be amused. If your watching it to learn something and make important discissions based on what you hear well then you have a problem.

Religion

I used to be in support of keeping "In God We Trust" on our money because it has been a tradition going pack to our earliest currency. I being a coin collector have a deep respect for that tradition and having noting to do with my religious preferences. But maybe the time has come to official the clear the slate of religion and have a true separation of Curch and State. Just the very notion that people will argue evolution is just downright sad. We've seen species of living things evolve in our lifetimes and over the past couple of centuries, yet some will let religion blind them to say that this is not true? Just because the bible says so we are to ignore the evidence of the fact that this planet Earth has existed for Millions of years before we are told that god created it? Sure lets just ignore those 40 feet tall skeletons of dinosaurs that sit in museums around the world. Sure I just give up in trying to find a middle ground with Religious Zealots who want it their way or the highway. Fine remove the 10 commandments and nativity sense from all of our public buildings and remove "in god we trust" from our currency. To modify one of my favorite political quotes "Religion has no place in the public or political arena".

We've become The Bad Guy.

The remarks made by Russian President Putin a few weeks ago were right on the money. The United States has far overstepped its bounds on the international stage. I'm happy that one country has a leader who was not afraid to say so. Even though I don't personally like the man I respect him for having the balls to say what he did. Why has the rest of the world given the United States a free pass on its war on terror? What we've done in Iraq is terrible. We've caused a civil war and no one has anything to say about it? We all know now that now WMD's were found and that they were the basis for the war in Iraq. The UN and the rest of the world told us that they were not there in the first place. What hasn't the UN at least make an anouncement and say "WE TOLD YOU SO"?

In the past, if any other country has done what the United States has done over the past 5 years....... they would have been attacked either by the United Nations or the United States itself. Not only that but the leader of that nation would have been arrested and put on trial for war crimes. I'm not calling President Bush a criminal but I'm just saying that the United States of 15 years ago and back would have never stood by and let one country defy the will of the world. However we've been able to do it and the world seems fine with it. I don't get it. What do we have to do before the international community steps in and says NO MORE?

[CuppaJoe]

Gore screwed up when he kept quiet about Clinton during the Monica Lewinksy scandal, but instead, backed him to the hilt. Even Tipper who started the campaign to censor certain CDs and video games didn't say anything. But when it came time for Gore to run for President, even when Clinton offered to help, Gore avoided him like the plague.

Everyone was rooting for Howard Dean until his infamous scream. Then they dropped him like a hot potato and pinned their hopes on Kerry. Kerry screwed up when he kept telling everyone, "I have a plan," but then never told anyone what it was...

Now the Democrats are putting their hopes on a female candidate and a black candidate. I predict that most Democrat males won't vote for Hillary because she's a woman and that most Democrat whites won't vote for Osama because he's black which will drive a lot of the Democrat votes to Republican candidates...

Bush screwed up when...

Well, when didn't he screw up?

[Orlandude]

"What every happened to the United States of America? When did we become "the bad guy"? When did we become the international joke we now are? When did we loose our mighty military strength? When did we stop doing what was right and become the bully?"

ANSWER: George W. Bush and his "doctrine of pre-emptive war". The day Bush proclaimed "You are either with us or against us", America fell into divisiveness where every issue became (and remains) a "right/left" debate. "Government by the people" got thrown out the window, replaced by not thinking for ourselves and turning to "talking heads" on every single one of the BIASED news networks to think for us. They run the whole gamut of extremism from CNN (to the extreme left) and Fox News (to the extreme right). On top of it all is the FACT that we initiated a war based on misinformation, vague half-truths and downright lies. To wit, Congress and the American people were duped...big time...by a bunch of war hawks. The only republican response is that democrats have no answers. Never mind that republicans took us down a path of deceit, treachery, lost lives and deficit for 5 years. You call this "doing something"??

ELECTIONS

Democrats HAVE given a solution. It's called "GET OUT". It was met with a sure promise of veto from Bush and republican rantings and outrage about how that would send Iraq into "chaos". Like Iraq is not already in chaos. Face it. The ONLY republican candidate that has been pro-active about the war is McCain and his position is clearly anti-Bush!! The only "issues" other republican candidates can talk about are abortion and gay marriage, in an attempt to win over rightwing votes. You accuse Democrats of having no platform for any ideas, yet none of the republican candidates have stated CLEARLY what they will do to change anything. It's just the same old republican drek of emotional social issues that have nothing to do with the war. That and the politics of personal destruction so characteristic of the GOP. So now where is the outrage??

HUMOR?

There is none...on either side. Each one is too busy wagging and pointing their fingers to the other saying "it's YOUR war".

RELIGION

The only thing we totally agree upon. Religious nutcases in this country have deliberately blurred the distinction between religion and POLITICAL conservatism. So-called "religious conservatives" have become nothing more than fringe lunatic extremists, the same religious extremism that flew two airplanes into the WTC. Same ilk. Nutcases. Since they insist on politicizing from the pulpit, that makes the case that they are no longer churches of worship. They are simply political meeting halls. Therefore they should be TAXED like any other public conveyance that makes money. Churches have become businesses...pure and simple.

WE'VE BECOME THE BAD GUY

The entire original purpose(if there ever was one) of even being in Iraq is long over. We have no business being involved in Iraq's civil war, as much as republicans deny that it even is a civil war. The "war on terror" mantra has become a joke and even Bush rarely uses the term anymore. Why? Because it doesn't work. Terrorism has existed in the world for 3000 years. Bush can fashion himself as "the second coming" all he wants. His legacy will never reflect that he put a dent in terrorism. Unfortunately for this world, terrorism will exist long after all of us are long gone.

It all makes one wonder who is REALLY a part of any so-called "axis of evil". The rest of the world isn't wondering anymore. They have had enough of the rhetoric and who can really blame them? The whole thing is a total disaster and one that generations will inherit. The ONLY way it's going to change is to end partisan crap, unify as a nation and get on with it. Don't hold your breath.

Originally Posted by DiaryOfAMadman

What every happened to the United States of America? When did we become "the bad guy"? When did we become the international joke we now are? When did we loose our mighty military strength? When did we stop doing what was right and become the bully?

I don't see a notable difference in the situation that hasn't happened to some degree or other before.

Elections

Look no further then Senators Clinton and Obama when it comes to one thing thats wrong with our country. We can even take it back a few months further lets say January when the new Democratic controlled congress assumed power.

It seems as if the American people do not care about answers or solutions. So far not one Democrat has come out to give any advice on ending the United States involvement in Iraq. They make it clear that President Bush is wrong, yet they give not a single idea how to fix the problem. The only thing in 2 months that the new congress has done was vote on a "Non Binding Resolution" (wich means all they wanted to do was publicly say SHAME ON YOU to the president). Where about to head into the month of March and the troop increase is still on schedule as it has been since the president made his announcement. Great Britan has decided to pull its troops out of Iraq, but the U.S. pledges to stay the course and increase our numbers there.

If the Democrats were against the war in Iraq, like they say they are, they would pull the plug on funding in Iraq. Instead, they vote on resolutions that have no force or effect.

Now we have the election for the next President of the United States coming up and whats the top story behind the 2 leading democratic candidates? They're auguring over which millionaires are giving money to which candidate. I can't believe that they're discussing their fundraising and not any issues that involve any citizens or policy here in this country. Forget about Iraq, forget about the war on terror, forget about abortion, forget about soaring fuel prices, forget about high war costs, forget about the large deficit, forget about health care, forget about education, forget about the way the freedom act took away so many of our personal freedoms, forget about our fragmented military, and forget about rebuilding the post Katrina south. They have more important topics to discuss and thats where are we getting our campaign dollars from.

Yup.

Why can't someone come out and present ANY SOLUTION to the American Public. Maybe a candidate or a politician in power can come and tell us where they stand on all or some of these issues and how they can be resolved. I don't even care if I disagree with their recomendations, I just want to hear someone throw something out there to be talked about and possible bring about a change.

Nobody is presenting any comprehensive solutions because it's all about personal power grabs and spotlights.

Republicans vs Democrats

Fuck them all!

I agree, but it won't change the situation.

Republicans are saying that Democrats are not good leaders and give us a chance to get out of of the mess that we got into. This was the reason that President Bush was re-elected, to try and get the troops out of Iraq. They have the right to be smug hell they can come out and say "fine don't vote for us, but what's your other option?" They make a great point. Was John Kerry going to make a better president then Bush? Kerry never convinced the American people that he could, therefore he's sitting at home on his couch.

Democrats have no platform or any ideas. The Democrat party won the last national election in November because they campaigned on "everything has turned to shit under Republican control, although we have no ideas we know that everything that Republicans have done is wrong". That was it! That summed up in its entirety how the Democrats regained control of Congress. "We have no idea how to fix the problem, but we can't do any worse of a job".

That pretty much describes it.

Religion

I used to be in support of keeping "In God We Trust" on our money because it has been a tradition going pack to our earliest currency. I being a coin collector have a deep respect for that tradition and having noting to do with my religious preferences. But maybe the time has come to official the clear the slate of religion and have a true separation of Curch and State. Just the very notion that people will argue evolution is just downright sad. We've seen species of living things evolve in our lifetimes and over the past couple of centuries, yet some will let religion blind them to say that this is not true? Just because the bible says so we are to ignore the evidence of the fact that this planet Earth has existed for Millions of years before we are told that god created it? Sure lets just ignore those 40 feet tall skeletons of dinosaurs that sit in museums around the world. Sure I just give up in trying to find a middle ground with Religious Zealots who want it their way or the highway. Fine remove the 10 commandments and nativity sense from all of our public buildings and remove "in god we trust" from our currency. To modify one of my favorite political quotes "Religion has no place in the public or political arena".

I don't think there is a place for religion of any kind in politics.

We've become The Bad Guy.

Many people said the same thing during Vietnam and during the Iran Contra scandal. So, has any thing changed?

The remarks made by Russian President Putin a few weeks ago were right on the money. The United States has far overstepped its bounds on the international stage. I'm happy that one country has a leader who was not afraid to say so. Even though I don't personally like the man I respect him for having the balls to say what he did. Why has the rest of the world given the United States a free pass on its war on terror? What we've done in Iraq is terrible. We've caused a civil war and no one has anything to say about it? We all know now that now WMD's were found and that they were the basis for the war in Iraq. The UN and the rest of the world told us that they were not there in the first place. What hasn't the UN at least make an anouncement and say "WE TOLD YOU SO"?

Looking at Russia's history, I don't think that they are in a position to point fingers at any one. Putin didn't get to where he is without eliminating a lot of enemies.

In the past, if any other country has done what the United States has done over the past 5 years....... they would have been attacked either by the United Nations or the United States itself. Not only that but the leader of that nation would have been arrested and put on trial for war crimes. I'm not calling President Bush a criminal but I'm just saying that the United States of 15 years ago and back would have never stood by and let one country defy the will of the world. However we've been able to do it and the world seems fine with it. I don't get it. What do we have to do before the international community steps in and says NO MORE?

The UN is an incompetent organization that wasn't able to enforce its own resolutions, which is one of the main reasons the US went into Iraq. After being devasted with 9/11, I thing the US did the right thing by eliminating the possibility of any threat relating to WMDs. Unfortunately, the handling of the rebuilding phase is where it failed.

Nevertheless, any one who thinks that the US is going to relinquish control of its military bases and resources in Iraq are fooling themselves, because the world is getting ready to go to war over the dwindling oil supplies. Just be happy your country was smart enough to protect its foreign interests, because Americans aren't very good at a third world lifestyle.

Putin is smart and is putting Russia on a war footing, which is why he made derogatory comments about America and President Bush. He knows what's on the the horizon. Without oil, the international community won't be in a position to do much of any thing, esp. if Iranian oil supplies are cut-off, which would not effect America, since they don't import oil from Iran. China would then have to look at the Venezuelan oil fields they're developing, but it would not be enough to sustain them as a nation.

If America maintains control of its military bases in Iraq, it will be able to survive the coming oil wars. That's the bottom line.

[Hotguy018]

RELIGION

I don't see why we should get rid of In God We Trust. I don't think that it has anything to do with religion. Last time I checked God didn't belong to a particular religion. I think it's more to do with the fact that people just want to get rid of God.

[WYSIWYG]

What has happened to the United States?

1. Only the rich can run for office.
2. We now have almost no middle class
3. Since we are the only super power left, Bush feels we can control what is best for America and to hell with everyone else.
4. We now have 2 minorities that we can bash, immigrants and gays.
5. No improvement in American's lives, and no national health care. Hell, even Colombia has healthcare for it citizens!
6. We sell weapons to the highest bidder.
7. THe right wing and religious institutions have to much power and money to give to our "elected" politicians.

[greydog]

Orlandude, post #4

I totally agree with you--your post is bang on in my opinion.

[kallipolis]

There is another side to the coin. The United States through the World Food Programme, provides most of the food aid to North Korea. Shock, shock! The United States continues to be a significant partner (with other nations) in various UN agencies providing much needed help to those countries and peoples (Darfur and Somalia) where there is a dire need for practical help, over the sanctimonious clap trap offered by the do gooders, who spend their life complaining from the comfort of their armchair.

We need to look at the total picture of the human person, and not just at those features that might well attract our creative criticism. My bathroom mirror often reminds me of my own frailities.

[DiaryOfAMadman]

"Get Out" is not a stratgey by the Democrats. It's simply stating that the current stratagy of "stay in" is wrong. Not one democrat has yet to outline a plan on HOW TO GET OUT. It's basically my entire point that they are just generalizing and not detailing any actual ways out.

69,

In reference to your first paragraph, the only reason it bothers me is because we are at the forefront of each one of those problems not at the same time. That in my young life is the first time I'e ever seen it happen all at the same time.

Everyone else,

Yes I totally agree with you that Bush screwed up. But how do we fix it. I don't care who fixes it, it can be the Green Party for all I care, but something needs to be fixed......... hell everything does. I tried to sway this from another something "BUSH BASHING THREAD" but all roads lead to him. But give me some ideas on how to fix our problems, try to do a little better then get out. I won't be back on until after work at 11pm but thanks to the response to this tread so far.

[greydog]

Originally Posted by DiaryOfAMadman

"Get Out" is not a stratgey by the Democrats. It's simply stating that the current stratagy of "stay in" is wrong. Not one democrat has yet to outline a plan on HOW TO GET OUT. It's basically my entire point that they are just generalizing and not detailing any actual ways out.

Yes I totally agree with you that Bush screwed up. But how do we fix it. I don't care who fixes it, it can be the Green Party for all I care, but something needs to be fixed......... hell everything does. I tried to sway this from another something "BUSH BASHING THREAD" but all roads lead to him. But give me some ideas on how to fix our problems, try to do a little better then get out. I won't be back on until after work at 11pm but thanks to the response to this tread so far.

__________________________________________________ _____________

Hey, DiaryOf AMadman,

Barack Obama has a plan, however, it will likely get stalled in the Senate,
and Bush will veto it anyway. Too bad there aren't more Democrat Senators,
or Republicans who oppose Bush.

Obama Introducing Bill Mandating Withdrawal Of All Troops From Iraq By March 2008
By Greg Sargent | bio

Here we go. Barack Obama is introducing binding legislation mandating the phased removal of combat brigades from Iraq to start in a few months, with the goal of getting "all" -- we repeat, "all" -- removed by March 2008. From a release just sent out by his campaign:

WASHINGTON – U.S. Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) today introduced binding and comprehensive legislation that not only reverses the President’s dangerous and ill-conceived escalation of the Iraq war, but also sets a new course for U.S. policy that can bring a responsible end to the war and bring our troops home.

“Our troops have performed brilliantly in Iraq, but no amount of American soldiers can solve the political differences at the heart of somebody else’s civil war,” Obama said. “That’s why I have introduced a plan to not only stop the escalation of this war, but begin a phased redeployment that can pressure the Iraqis to finally reach a political settlement and reduce the violence.”

The Obama plan offers a responsible yet effective alternative to the President's failed policy of escalation. Realizing there can be no military solution in Iraq, it focuses instead on reaching a political solution in Iraq, protecting our interests in the region, and bringing this war to a responsible end. The legislation commences redeployment of U.S. forces no later than May 1, 2007 with the goal of removing all combat brigades from Iraq by March 31, 2008, a date that is consistent with the expectation of the bipartisan Iraq Study Group.

This is a very big gamble by Obama, and it's clearly designed to put some heavy pressure on the other Dems in the primary to come up with something similar.

What happened to America?

Just look at this thread.

Split right down the middle.

United we stand, divided we fall.

[ComNavFdgPk]

It used to be really easy to tell the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. The good guys always wore white hats, they never drew their guns first, and there was never any question as to which side of the law they played on.

Okay, I admit that's a little bit idealistic (and possibly dated). But the fact remains, we're not the same nation we were after the last attack on American soil in 1941. All you have to do is look at the current crop of movies and TV shows. There was a time when bad cops, corrupt government and Constitutional Rights violations were something that was to be abhorred. Now, on television, we have the morally bankrupt cops of The Shield, the blatant rights violations of 24, the power-grabbing corruption of Prison Break, and the motion picture industry certainly doesn't rise above the level of bad guys playing fast and easy with the truth.

These shows and movies could never have been made in a climate where this sort of activity is condemned and (in real life) the people who perpetrate these crime spend long terms in prison.

Today, we have American servicemen on trial for rape and murder. Rape and murder for Christ's sake! How in the hell did this happen to us? While we may not have been everyone's favorite superpower on the block, at least we used to be able to hold our heads up and know that we were trying to be better people than the ones we were fighting.

I'm not really certain where I expected this rant to go, but I did feel that I had to say some of this. Yeah, yeah, there are going to be people telling me what an asshole I am, that I'm not a patriot and all the rest of that bullshit. But keep in mind, there used to be a time when and American travelling abroad didn't have to hide the fact that he was an American!

Originally Posted by ComNavFdgPk

But keep in mind, there used to be a time when and American travelling abroad didn't have to hide the fact that he was an American!

For our trip to the Mediterranean last autumn, we purchased baseball caps with a red maple leaf and a big "CANADA" on the front. We figured that as Minnesotans, we'd be able to pull it off.

We were astounded by the number of Americans we encountered during our travels who were doing the same thing or similar. We'd see someone with a "Canada" t-shirt on and ask him where he was from and we'd invariably hear something like "Oh, I'm not FROM there...I just thought it'd be safer to wear it."

"Strange days indeed...most peculiar, mama!"--John Lennon

^


"I'm a lumberjack and I'm o.k...."

[NickCole]

Originally Posted by DiaryOfAMadman

"Get Out" is not a stratgey by the Democrats. It's simply stating that the current stratagy of "stay in" is wrong. Not one democrat has yet to outline a plan on HOW TO GET OUT. It's basically my entire point that they are just generalizing and not detailing any actual ways out.

That's not true. That's BushRepublican propaganda talking point crap.

Murtha's outlined a plan, with contributions from Clinton, Biden and Levin to name three.

Coming to agreement is very very difficult because the problem is complex, BushRepublicans are fighting real solutions every step of the way, and Democrats have to come up with a plan to address several problems AND it has to be a plan that somehow has teeth that'll cut through Bush resistance.

Look, Bush & Co (with the help of the BushRepublican controlled Congress shirking its oversight responsibility for years) have made such a horrible mess in Iraq that figuring out how to untangle it and get ourselves out of there without making a bigger mess is not easily agreed upon. Especially since Bush is still Commander in Chief and refuses to listen to anybody but neocons. But debating the issue and the options, with as many ideas thrown into the discussion, is the right thing for Congress to do. And that's exactly what the Democratic controlled Congress is now doing. It's late because Republicans wouldn't do it, so it's going to take a little time. But they ARE doing it.

[SixPackInBoxers]

What happened to America? Simple Bush happened.

Originally Posted by DiaryOfAMadman

..... Why has the rest of the world given the United States a free pass on its war on terror? What we've done in Iraq is terrible. We've caused a civil war and no one has anything to say about it? We all know now that now WMD's were found and that they were the basis for the war in Iraq. The UN and the rest of the world told us that they were not there in the first place. What hasn't the UN at least make an anouncement and say "WE TOLD YOU SO"?

In the past, if any other country has done what the United States has done over the past 5 years....... they would have been attacked either by the United Nations or the United States itself. Not only that but the leader of that nation would have been arrested and put on trial for war crimes. I'm not calling President Bush a criminal but I'm just saying that the United States of 15 years ago and back would have never stood by and let one country defy the will of the world. However we've been able to do it and the world seems fine with it. I don't get it. What do we have to do before the international community steps in and says NO MORE?

The rest of the world isnt in a position, politically, or militarily to object to the USA. Those who do, become enemies of the USA, are put on the Axis of Evil, and get in the queue waiting to be attacked.

The world is a different place post 9/11. Things aren't quite as clear cut as they used to be. As far as the UN goes - it is only recognised by the US, when it suits the US... i.e if the UN were to turn around and try to charge Bush with War Crimes, it just wouldnt work.. because the US doesnt recognise the Hague. Where as here in Britain, we do - thus Tony could be charged with War Crimes.

It sucks, it really does that the USA has gotten into a position where it finds itself now... because you're right, the US had a hellova lot of respect globally, as did Britain - both of our nations have suffered as a result of these past 6 years.

And to be honest, things will never be the same again. Because this war on terror, this policy of war mongering and invading countries which dont agree, isnt ever going to end - this is the new world that we live in, and will be until we take our dying breath.

Can i just point one simple, yet fundamental fact out regarding Iraq and the so called Weapons of Mass Destruction...


There wasn't any!!! Hanz Blix said so before March 03, he said "give me another month to be absolutely sure" and the US/UK coalition charged in.

WMD wasn't the cause, because we both knew that there wasn't any.

Originally Posted by retread

__________________________________________________ _____________


Barack Obama has a plan, however, it will likely get stalled in the Senate,
and Bush will veto it anyway. Too bad there aren't more Democrat Senators,
or Republicans who oppose Bush.

Obama Introducing Bill Mandating Withdrawal Of All Troops From Iraq By March 2008
By Greg Sargent | bio

Here we go. Barack Obama is introducing binding legislation mandating the phased removal of combat brigades from Iraq to start in a few months, with the goal of getting "all" -- we repeat, "all" -- removed by March 2008. From a release just sent out by his campaign:

WASHINGTON – U.S. Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) today introduced binding and comprehensive legislation that not only reverses the President’s dangerous and ill-conceived escalation of the Iraq war, but also sets a new course for U.S. policy that can bring a responsible end to the war and bring our troops home.

“Our troops have performed brilliantly in Iraq, but no amount of American soldiers can solve the political differences at the heart of somebody else’s civil war,” Obama said. “That’s why I have introduced a plan to not only stop the escalation of this war, but begin a phased redeployment that can pressure the Iraqis to finally reach a political settlement and reduce the violence.”

The Obama plan offers a responsible yet effective alternative to the President's failed policy of escalation. Realizing there can be no military solution in Iraq, it focuses instead on reaching a political solution in Iraq, protecting our interests in the region, and bringing this war to a responsible end. The legislation commences redeployment of U.S. forces no later than May 1, 2007 with the goal of removing all combat brigades from Iraq by March 31, 2008, a date that is consistent with the expectation of the bipartisan Iraq Study Group.

This is a very big gamble by Obama, and it's clearly designed to put some heavy pressure on the other Dems in the primary to come up with something similar.

Unless a large peacekeeping contingent filled the void of Sen Obama's proposed US withdrawal, it would likely result in a million upwards Iraqis being wiped out.

He might be wise to read up on LGen Dellaire's tragic account of events that took place in Rwanda. As bad as the situation is in Iraq, a total withdrawal would carry far graver consequences and fleeing refugees would likely be slaughtered, as they tried to crash neighbouring borders.

[DiaryOfAMadman]

Originally Posted by retread

__________________________________________________ _____________

Hey, DiaryOf AMadman,

Barack Obama has a plan, however, it will likely get stalled in the Senate,
and Bush will veto it anyway. Too bad there aren't more Democrat Senators,
or Republicans who oppose Bush.

Obama Introducing Bill Mandating Withdrawal Of All Troops From Iraq By March 2008
By Greg Sargent | bio

Here we go. Barack Obama is introducing binding legislation mandating the phased removal of combat brigades from Iraq to start in a few months, with the goal of getting "all" -- we repeat, "all" -- removed by March 2008. From a release just sent out by his campaign:

WASHINGTON – U.S. Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) today introduced binding and comprehensive legislation that not only reverses the President’s dangerous and ill-conceived escalation of the Iraq war, but also sets a new course for U.S. policy that can bring a responsible end to the war and bring our troops home.

I'm sorry but bringing all the troops home by March 2008 is NOT A PLAN. It's a goal, and there is a huge difference between a plan and a goal. He gives no details on how to stabalize the country before a pull out.

The only one in Washington who has any thing solid to build on is Joe Byden. He's in favor of dividing up Iraq into 3 different territories each with their own government. Howver he is also no clear in how he wants to go about doing this.

I'm not saying all of this to BASH! any politicians or party. But if you give anyone in Washington "Supreme Military and Economic Authority"tommarrow, they would have nothing to do with that power. This really remiinds me of "The Underpants Gnomes" from South Park who were suposedly great business men. They had their plan on how to make money:

Phase 1 : Collect Underpants
Phase 3: Profit

They never knew what Phase 2 was. Just like today's politicans.

Phase 1: Stop new troop deployment
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Bring troops home by March 2008

Originally Posted by JDsmagik

What happened to America?

Just look at this thread.

Split right down the middle.

United we stand, divided we fall.

Originally Posted by ComNavFdgPk

It used to be really easy to tell the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. The good guys always wore white hats, they never drew their guns first, and there was never any question as to which side of the law they played on.

Okay, I admit that's a little bit idealistic (and possibly dated). But the fact remains, we're not the same nation we were after the last attack on American soil in 1941. All you have to do is look at the current crop of movies and TV shows. There was a time when bad cops, corrupt government and Constitutional Rights violations were something that was to be abhorred. Now, on television, we have the morally bankrupt cops of The Shield, the blatant rights violations of 24, the power-grabbing corruption of Prison Break, and the motion picture industry certainly doesn't rise above the level of bad guys playing fast and easy with the truth.

These shows and movies could never have been made in a climate where this sort of activity is condemned and (in real life) the people who perpetrate these crime spend long terms in prison.

Today, we have American servicemen on trial for rape and murder. Rape and murder for Christ's sake! How in the hell did this happen to us? While we may not have been everyone's favorite superpower on the block, at least we used to be able to hold our heads up and know that we were trying to be better people than the ones we were fighting.

I'm not really certain where I expected this rant to go, but I did feel that I had to say some of this. Yeah, yeah, there are going to be people telling me what an asshole I am, that I'm not a patriot and all the rest of that bullshit. But keep in mind, there used to be a time when and American travelling abroad didn't have to hide the fact that he was an American!

For both of you. What we are doing here is Patroitic. I don't understand when people say openly discussing a topic is "Un American". The ability do disagree openly about our government is what made America great in the first place. As a country we've made a lot of bad decissions over the past couple of years but it's nothing that in time cannot be corrected.

Com Nav , feel free to rant as long as you want. Some of my closests friends are serving in the Army and Marines. They know that I support each and every solider, however I do not support their leader or the reasons for the current war in Iraq. Hell I did'nt even fully support the war in Afganistan. I thought Saudi Arabia would have made more sense for a 9/11 retaliation then Afganistan. Nearly every single 9/11 hijacker was from Saudi Arabia, but there was never talk about punishing them. It dosen't make you any less of a person to stand up againts someting that is wrong. Just because we don't support the war dosn't mean that we don't fully support our troops. Nerver let anyone convince you otherwise.

Originally Posted by joeslifeyork

The rest of the world isnt in a position, politically, or militarily to object to the USA. Those who do, become enemies of the USA, are put on the Axis of Evil, and get in the queue waiting to be attacked.

The world is a different place post 9/11. Things aren't quite as clear cut as they used to be. As far as the UN goes - it is only recognised by the US, when it suits the US... i.e if the UN were to turn around and try to charge Bush with War Crimes, it just wouldnt work.. because the US doesnt recognise the Hague. Where as here in Britain, we do - thus Tony could be charged with War Crimes.

It sucks, it really does that the USA has gotten into a position where it finds itself now... because you're right, the US had a hellova lot of respect globally, as did Britain - both of our nations have suffered as a result of these past 6 years.

And to be honest, things will never be the same again. Because this war on terror, this policy of war mongering and invading countries which dont agree, isnt ever going to end - this is the new world that we live in, and will be until we take our dying breath.

Shame on the world! The people of the world united are much stronger then any one sovereign nation could ever be. Our own military commanders in the US are saying that our armed forces are a wreck and are in shambles. If the U.S. was invaded by China tomorrow, there's no doubt that our military would loose. However with the amount of weapons in the average US Citizens hands, a full occupation would never seem possible.

The world must grow a set of balls. There is thousands of years of human history before the last 230 years of US existence. Whey does the world let us walk all over them. Many countries have nuclear weapons, and the Euro is stronger then the dollar what's there to fear. The world could hurt the US much more then the US could hurt the world.

[centexfarmer]

^ What would you suggest then to return America back to "the days" when we were great in your mind?

First - Any given country becomes the bad guy when it gets to the point to where said country just can't possibly ever be wrong. When American citizens are treated as though they are "enemies" because they are doing what is their real "patriotic duty" and asking questions and demanding answers and accountability from the people in charge...that's when the United States becomes a bully....a thug. When the state is no longer accountable to the people. When war is the first option, rather than the last. When Americans wave American flags at other Americans When you're a bad guy if you don't particularly like the current administration. When you have to support everything your government does to the hilt. That's not the America I grew up reading about in the History books.

What has happened to America? America is a spoiled child who's found his father's gun and is running around the neighborhood waving it around and firing shots off in all directions. That's what's the matter with America.

Why don't Democrats have a plan to get us out of Iraq? Why should they? They didn't get us into Iraq, did they? They played a role in it but as I recall, GWB was pretty goddamned persistent and adamant about it.

Iraq is a royal mess and it's all GWB's doing. It's not going to come out well no matter what we do now. The time for planning passed about 4 years ago. Am I pleased with the candidates the Democratic party has put forth? No. Not really. But I wouldn't vote for a Republican at gunpoint.....most particularly after the last 6 years. Fuck the Republican party! I've never been more convinced of the pure villainy of any group of people more than I am of the modern Republican party.

What happened to America? Nothing, really. It was probably always destined to be virtually indistinguishable from many of the oppressive, tyrannical cultures from which it originally sprang. When people are free to be stupid and ignorant of the past and the consequences of their actions, it's only a matter of time, I guess.

[DiaryOfAMadman]

Originally Posted by centexfarmer

^ What would you suggest then to return America back to "the days" when we were great in your mind?

I don't know how great we were. I always belive that "one man's hero, is another man's villain". So good and evil is always in the eye of the beholder.

Suggest to make the US a better place:

As a nation, I think it would better the world if we made an attempt to make the United Nations stronger. With the United States having so much influence in the organization, it would be a good idea to take the U.N. Headquarters out of NYC and the United States altogether. Peace keeping missions do far more good in this world then war. The United Nations needs to become the worlds police force and they must have some ability to hurt any nation who defies the will of the world organization as a whole.

The U.S. should also abandon its foreign foreign military bases located in Europe and the Middle East. I don't mind as much in U.S. territories such as the case in the Pacific. This always struck me as weird. We have military bases all over the world (U.S. Soldiers and Weapons in foreign countries), however there is not one foreign military base inside of the United States. Doing this would not only apse some enemies in the middle east, but also Russia. They're citizens have every right to express outrage, we do not belong there.

It can be argued that Social Security and Welfare saved the American public in the middle of the 20th century. Wether or not you liked them, they did they're jobs and the U.S. economy is better of because of it. Having a poverty line somewhere between $10,000-$19,000 per year is a far cry from what's considered poverty in other parts of the world.

Times have changed, and a new century brings forth new problems. In order to save the American public in this century three new programs must be instituted while the old saviors are discarded.

1. Social Security must be privetized. Citizens must be responsible for their own futures. The country can cover the bill for benefits up to a certain cut off date (for sake of discussion lets say 2047). Even if it puts the nation into further debt, there will be a tremendous financial relief for the nation come 2048 since no longer having to pay the bill. That would give todays workers 40 years to save up for their retirement, wich is far more then enough time. Doing this will also be a boost to our markets and economy. The citizens would be able to sustain the National debt buy domestically holding our own Treasury Notes and Bills. Plus it will be a huge boom to our investment and banking industries, leading to 100,000's of new jobs in the industry.

2. Universal Health Care must be provided to ALL US CITIZENS. This subject I may not have as great of a well though out plan then I do about privatizing social security. Right now I'd recommend making the the Federal Income Tax a "flat tax" and charging all citizens who make over $19,999.99 per year a Flat 20% Income Tax. Citizens will be required to carry their own nationally issued health insurance, however companies who have full time employes will responsible to cover the costs of an "agreed upon basic health care coverage package" to help the government pay for the plan. The result will still be that Dr's visits, Prescriptions, Nursing Homes, Emergency Medicine, and non elective procedures will be covered in full.

3. Universal Education. The reason I push for a 20% flat tax and Employer assistance in covering Universal Health Care is to also cover Universal Education. A free secondary school education should be available for every student who want's it, not just those who can afford it. I'm not say that every kid can go to Harvard or Yale, but even if its just to community college. A college degree is a college degree as long as the institution is accredited. Students would still have to go through an application process and would need to get a standard minimum grades to get into the better schools. Not much would change about the admissions process. Some of this money can also be freed up to created a FEDERAL PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM. Wich would be the complete opposite of local school systems. This would give the public school students in Jackson Mississippi the same exact education and tools as a student would have in Beverly Hills.


All 5 of those solutions could be enacted by strong leadership in 2 years or less. Many people do not like FDR but he new about how important it was to take quick and decisive action. He was allowed to do almost anything he wanted during his presidency and he used it to push change along at a rapid pace. Change doest not have to be slow and steady, it can be done "overnight". It all depends on how bad you want it.

I'd be more then happy to hear other suggestions or comments from all of our members on how to make the U.S. or the world a better place. I know my ideas are not perfect, but I think they're a start. I'd love any US politician to present any similar idea to those listed above to the American people. Honesty and heart could achieve so much and win over the American public if only someone would stand up and display those traits. Oh and to save some of you the trouble of typing ........ George Bush will be out of office in less then 2 years so don't worry, thats already being taken care of . But any other plans, feel free to add them.

^ As for your Universal plans - take a look at the UK and see how screwed up financially it is over here. And we pay a LOT more than 20% tax.

Lower rate earners pay 23% income tax, plus a further 13% for national insurance (NHS etc). Thats 36%.

HIGHER rate earners (those earning more than 40kpa) pay 40% income tax plus a further 13% NI. thats 53% tax.

The NHS is still many many BILLIONS in debt, it is failing under the strain, as is the education system and just about everything else.

I agree that a level of health care should be provided to everyone on the state.. but beyond that, it needs to be PMI.


However, there are many more pressing matters which affect if America is great or not.. and none of them revolve around healthcare and education.

You need to think internationally.

Originally Posted by DiaryOfAMadman

The only one in Washington who has any thing solid to build on is Joe Byden. He's in favor of dividing up Iraq into 3 different territories each with their own government.

This would be the best solution for the situation in Iraq. However, I don't see the US giving up its military bases in Iraq.

[greydog]

My Canadian annual health care insurance premium is $648. per yr.
There are wait problems in some areas, but I have never had to
wait for any medical treatment. I have to pay for prescription drugs, but
nothing else.


February 13,2007

By Geoff Schumacher

It's finally becoming clear to a large majority of Americans that we need a better health care system - one that covers everybody at a significantly lower cost than we're paying today.

First, let's give up the worn-out mantra that under "socialized medicine" in Canada or England, it takes forever and a day to see a specialist or to have an operation.

It may be true that it takes longer than we Americans have come to expect to see a specialist in those countries. But that doesn't automatically mean that's how we would do things here. We can learn from others' mistakes.

And second, I'm not hearing stories about people dying in the streets of Canada or England because they couldn't get in to see their doctors in a timely fashion. Generally speaking, people in other industrialized countries are healthier than Americans.

Third, not all universal coverage plans around the globe have problems of this nature. While some complain about England's system, the people of Denmark apparently are quite happy with their health- care program.

And finally, while the Canadians and English wait for their treatment, tens of millions of Americans suffer because they can't afford to even pick up the phone and make an appointment.

The other cliche is that universal health coverage would be too expensive. Guess what? We are already paying through the nose for our health care. Our paychecks are gutted to pay premiums and deductibles. Our employers carry ever-heavier burdens to provide coverage. Then we all pay ungodly amounts to insurers, doctors, dentists, laboratories, hospitals and drug companies when we get sick or injured. And finally, we pay more through taxes to cover the uninsured who show up in county hospital emergency rooms.

Worst case: The tax dollars we'd pay for a universal health system still would be dwarfed by the typical outlays to participate in our current private system.

The irresponsible inaction at the federal level has spurred a number of states to pursue their own health-care solutions. California Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is pushing a $12 billion plan that would provide coverage for the state's 6.5 million uninsured residents. Meanwhile, Massachusetts, with bipartisan support, has approved a universal health plan, although it appears to need some tweaking to be as affordable as promised. Other states, including New York and Pennsylvania, are joining the debate.

Amid the encouraging discussion in some states, we learned last week that President Bush's budget would cut more than $100 billion from federally funded health care programs. You heard that right. Bush wants to gouge health programs when we have 47 million uninsured Americans. This makes about as much sense as his disastrous Iraq policies.

The good news is that politicians and businesses are beginning to take seriously the long-standing idea of universal coverage. It wasn't all that long ago, in 1994, that President Bill Clinton's health care plan was ridiculed by the right and demonized by an insurance industry-engineered ad campaign. Clinton's plan was flawed and needlessly complicated but programs aiming for the same goals are getting a more open-minded hearing today.

Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass., proposes extending Medicare coverage to all Americans. Sens. Barack Obama, D-Ill., and Hillary Clinton, D- N.Y., both likely presidential candidates, have called for universal health coverage. Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, a likely GOP presidential contender, wants to expand his state plan across the nation.

Washington Post columnist David Broder believes the big breakthrough could come in 2009, once Bush is out of office and a new president, one who has promised universal coverage during the campaign, is in.

We shouldn't have to wait that long. Our health care system is in crisis and requires a profound transformation.

Numerous countries have come around to this position over the past couple of decades. The United States has been stubborn, a product of its capitalist soul and a powerful health care industry lobby.

But as medical costs rise dramatically year after year, and more people can't afford insurance, it's become increasingly difficult for anybody to support our badly broken system. The level of frustration peaked last week, when Wal-Mart, regularly chastised for the less-than-generous health plan it provides to its employees, joined with a union and three other large corporations to call for universal health care.

This once-radical notion has suddenly gone mainstream, offering a tremendous opportunity to improve American life - if we do it right. Do it badly, and universal health care could be forced back to the sidelines for years.

[DiaryOfAMadman]

Originally Posted by joeslifeyork

However, there are many more pressing matters which affect if America is great or not.. and none of them revolve around healthcare and education.

You need to think internationally.

I think that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I love the fact that different people have different ideas about what to do. I just think that thinking "internationally" has been whats gotten the US in trouble over the past 20 years or so. I think the citizens of the US would be better served if the country focused its efforts internally and got "its own house in order" and let the U.N. protect the rest of the world. Recently we've overstepped our bounds and stepped on far to many toes in the international community. The situation in Iraq alone shows that the U.S. should worry about domestic issues rather then foreign policy. America's really falling apart from the inside out. If you start examining our inner cites ad "ground zero" you can see how all of our internal systems are collapsing. Education, heath care, and welfare have all failed our inner cities, and that has started an domino effect in this country.

With all of that being said, I still will state that there is no other nation in this world in wich I'd rather live. Sorry I had to throw that in, because I realize in this entire thread I've sounded less then patriotic, and it's not my intention at all. I love the United States and I just want to see it do better.

It is not un-patriotic to moan and critise your own nation. It is however rather unpatriotic just to go ahead with what ever government say and do.

You should be proud for having started this thread.

It's a great post, I hope you don't mind that I repost it in my blog (nathanr.ca), giving you full credit of course

[Homoaffectional]

Originally Posted by DiaryOfAMadman

As a nation, I think it would better the world if we made an attempt to make the United Nations stronger. With the United States having so much influence in the organization, it would be a good idea to take the U.N. Headquarters out of NYC and the United States altogether. Peace keeping missions do far more good in this world then war. The United Nations needs to become the worlds police force and they must have some ability to hurt any nation who defies the will of the world organization as a whole.

If you are really interested in making the UN stronger, then you would realize that it is irrelevant where it its headquarters is housed. If you really want to do something about the disproportionate amount of influence the US wields over the US (actually, technically, that *all* permanent members of the UN Security Council wield), you'd need to change the UN charter so that there would be a way for either a supermajority of the members of the Security Council (perhaps once that # is expanded from 15 to 25) or perhaps two thirds or three fourths of the UN General Assembly to override the US' vetoes of the UN Security Council Resolutions, which it tends to do with impunity. The US is no longer the way it was when Eleanor Roosevelt drafted it, and as such, we need to change it to reflect the new reality. Perhaps back then relative to other countries, the US stood for something good. However true that was back then, it is certainly not true right now, and the UN needs to revised so that other nations will have some kind of voice that can't be shot down by the US' unwieldy use of the veto every time something goes against the US' 'national interests', which is not the same as the interests of the international community or the world.

[DiaryOfAMadman]

Originally Posted by Homoaffectional

If you are really interested in making the UN stronger, then you would realize that it is irrelevant where it its headquarters is housed. If you really want to do something about the disproportionate amount of influence the US wields over the US (actually, technically, that *all* permanent members of the UN Security Council wield), you'd need to change the UN charter so that there would be a way for either a supermajority of the members of the Security Council (perhaps once that # is expanded from 15 to 25) or perhaps two thirds or three fourths of the UN General Assembly to override the US' vetoes of the UN Security Council Resolutions, which it tends to do with impunity. The US is no longer the way it was when Eleanor Roosevelt drafted it, and as such, we need to change it to reflect the new reality. Perhaps back then relative to other countries, the US stood for something good. However true that was back then, it is certainly not true right now, and the UN needs to revised so that other nations will have some kind of voice that can't be shot down by the US' unwieldy use of the veto every time something goes against the US' 'national interests', which is not the same as the interests of the international community or the world.

Yes, you know what I totally agree with you on that. A vote of 3/4's of the General Assembly should overturn any measure approved by the security council. Obviously if 75% of the world is against something, it can't be a good idea. I don't know how far you can actually raise the number of those nations in the security council, because there are only so many countries who have the ability to play a part in global military operations, support, and logistics. Maybe it can be stretched out to 20, but off the top of my head I don't know who you'd include to make it 25. It should be a 2 tier system like the US Congress. However any resolution passed by the security council should need the approval of the General Assembly. The ultimate power should be held by the vote of the General Assembly. It should be set up in a way in wich countries as powerful as the United States, could be hurt by a UN discission against them. It's obvious that we in the U.S. should be accountable to someone or something other then ourselves.

[Homoaffectional]

Originally Posted by DiaryOfAMadman

Yes, you know what I totally agree with you on that. A vote of 3/4's of the General Assembly should overturn any measure approved by the security council.

No, I meant override a veto, not overturn a resolution that's passed. An expanded 25 member Security Council should be able to block a bad idea on its own, without any help from the General Assembly. Right now, with 15 members, you need at least 9 to pass a resolution, and you need none of the five 'permanent' members of the UNSC to veto. When there are 25 members, I would assume they would increase the amount needed to pass to about 16 or some such, but the proposed new permanent members - India, Japan, Germany, Brazil, South Africa, etc. will not get a veto. But the idea of the UN is to build coalitions such as the non-aligned nations, etc. So a coalition. The Security Council were able to block the second UN resolution explicitly authorizing force against Iraq this way.

[holland]

long post do i have to read it all?

53 usa overthrew iran the cia did even more in south america i think i heard

vietnam war nonsense

militery idustrial complex runs the country i guess

i hear corporations write law and congress votes on their crap and dont even read it

[holland]

cant u sumerize for a shorter post/?