Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Well, it's about time we had a thread about this issue which is now becoming the biggest International news story over the last week. Israel is once again in an armed conflict with Hamas which controls the Gaza strip.

It started with Hamas firing rockets into Israel for the hell of it, which brought down a very swift and brutal assassination of one of their leaders, compliments of Israel. Now Hamas is firing off even more rockets into Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with Israel now threatening a ground invasion. They've already blown up hundreds of Hamas ammunition sites and other military targets.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2146270.html

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GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip -- Hamas rocket squads aimed at Jerusalem for the first time Friday, along with commercial hub Tel Aviv, showing off their expanded reach as Israeli airstrikes pounded the Palestinian territory for a third day. Israel called up 16,000 reservists, moving a step closer to a possible ground offensive in the Palestinian territory.

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I don't know. There really isn't anything to comment about this. We've all seen this before. They fight and kill each other, and then there's a truce for awhile. Nothing ever really changes. Just more dead people.

I think we need to see how Egypt responds. They have withdrawn their ambassadors from Israel. If that is just a slap on the wrist it's one thing. If they did that to prepare for hostilities on their border, It's going to be bad for Egypt.

Cant blame us for being jaded. Same ole Netanyahu playing politics with people's lives. It can never be in the interests of Israel to have peace in th ME

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Originally Posted by AngolaZee

Cant blame us for being jaded. Same ole Netanyahu playing politics with people's lives. It can never be in the interests of Israel to have peace in th ME

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UMMM... just curious but you did read the part where for weeks Hamas has been launching missiles into Israel... I am sure Netanyahu paid them to do that :rollseyes:

Maybe Israel should finally get tough with Hamas.

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Palestinian militants took aim at Jerusalem for the first time Friday, launching a rocket attack on the holy city in a major escalation of hostilities as Israel pressed forward with a relentless campaign of airstrikes in the Gaza Strip. Israel called up thousands of reservists and massed troops along the border with Gaza, signaling a ground invasion of the densely populated seaside strip could be imminent. The attack on Jerusalem, along with an earlier strike on the metropolis of Tel Aviv, raised the likelihood that Israel would soon move in.

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The Islamists should have learned by now: there are consequences to aggression, especially terrorist aggression. At this point, their barbarism is enough that I'm surprised that Israel hasn't delivered an ultimatum.

What would that ultimatum be? Well, Egypt says it supports the Palestinians. Israel could call the bet, and tell Hamas -- who are the government in Gaza, which makes the attacks an act of war -- that the IDF is coming in, and the Gazans have two choices: hand over every last Hamas member and every last weapon of any sort, or the entire population will be delivered to Egypt.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...or-escalation/

I'm 100% with the Israelis - I am not Jewish

Tel Aviv was hit ? think of it as NY or Washington DC

imagine if we were hit in NYC or Wash. DC

Israel is our ally, a great one, and is acting in their best interests - and I trust their judgement

Their best interests is peace and prosperity - they have a great democracy and enjoy a great way of life, save for being surrounded by those who want them dead

for it's pretty simple really

good guys
bad guys

I heard on one of the new channels here in the UK that if Israel takes out all the Hamas hierachy, it will plunge the Gaza strip into turmoil as whatever emerges out of this will not be ultimately be in Israel's favour in the future. That is, the rise of even greater militancy in the Middle East.

Moreover, Israel's play seems to mimic 4 years ago. Preemptive strikes, public opinion issues, and the coming Israeli elections.

Why didn't this thread turn up when I did a search to see if anyone had posted about this? Now we have two threads....

My gut reaction, since Egypt has announced that they support the Palestinians, is that Israel should call them on that and deliver an ultimatum to the Gazans: hand over every last member and follower of Hamas for war crimes trials, and every last military-type weapon in the strip, or the IDF comes in and relocates the entire population into Egypt.

After all, Hamas is the government in Gaza, which makes the rocket attacks an act of war. Israel has every right to respond in any way they please to eliminate the threat once and for all.

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Originally Posted by star-warrior

I heard on one of the new channels here in the UK that if Israel takes out all the Hamas hierachy, it will plunge the Gaza strip into turmoil as whatever emerges out of this will not be ultimately be in Israel's favour in the future. That is, the rise of even greater militancy in the Middle East.

Moreover, Israel's play seems to mimic 4 years ago. Preemptive strikes, public opinion issues, and the coming Israeli elections.

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Israel has little choice: their enemy believes in their annihilation, total genocide. The sensible thing to do would by to utterly obliterate that opposition.

It would be best for all if Gaza were populated by Israelis.

It would be best if Palestinians, especially in Gaza, had leaders who would stop their suicidal actions towards Israel and just say and mean they would negotiate for a peaceful and independent Palestinian state. In whose interest is this constant state of war against the existence of Israel....which is the real cause for Israel's often heavy handed self defense measures against Palestinians? WHEN have the Palestinians, especially because of the instransigence and hostility of Hamas and some other radical groups, ever been serious partners for peace? What is Israel supposed to do with a rocket barrage designed to terrorize and kill civilians launched by Hamas and other radical Islamic groups like Islamic Jihad? I don't agree with Israel's heavy handedness at times but it's time the Palestinians living in Gaza knew that allowing such a monstrous group like Hamas and others to continue posing a threat and gain more sophisticated and deadly weaponry(plus the means to deliver them more lethally) can not be tolerated any longer.

President Morsi of Egypt, as a leading figure in the Muslim Brotherhood( a parent organization to Hamas) must let Hamas know in no uncertain terms smuggling weapons through the Sinai will no longer be allowed...if the Brotherhood wants war...be open about it but I doubt it's what the Islamists in Egypt want, at least for now. Control your dogs, Dr. Morsi.

Ntanyahu is a warmonger, but he isn't the issue. The issue is the civilians who are being bombed and their government's right to protect their lives. The Hammas offensive is opportunistic and disgusting. Timed with the american elections, and the Jewish holidays.

Truly a pathetic move, and proof that they are still terrorists. Who was it that thought it was a good idea to let them get in office? Oh yeah. Bush. The giant of international policy.

I don't think there are many people that would be stupid enough to take up for Hammas.

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Originally Posted by BostonPirate

Ntanyahu is a warmonger, but he isn't the issue. The issue is the civilians who are being bombed and their government's right to protect their lives. The Hammas offensive is opportunistic and disgusting. Timed with the american elections, and the Jewish holidays.

Truly a pathetic move, and proof that they are still terrorists. Who was it that thought it was a good idea to let them get in office? Oh yeah. Bush. The giant of international policy.

I don't think there are many people that would be stupid enough to take up for Hammas.

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Bush was also the least supportive of Israel of any president since the Six Day War... and probably since Israel's founding. He insisted on compromises and surrenders by Israel on a number of issues. Compared to him, Obama is their savior.

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Originally Posted by Sausy

President Morsi of Egypt, as a leading figure in the Muslim Brotherhood( a parent organization to Hamas) must let Hamas know in no uncertain terms smuggling weapons through the Sinai will no longer be allowed...if the Brotherhood wants war...be open about it but I doubt it's what the Islamists in Egypt want, at least for now. Control your dogs, Dr. Morsi.

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He should also offer new homes in Egypt to anyone from Gaza who is tired of the whole scene but not willing to stand up to Hamas and take them down.

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Originally Posted by Kulindahr

He should also offer new homes in Egypt to anyone from Gaza who is tired of the whole scene but not willing to stand up to Hamas and take them down.

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It's kind of hard to take down the guys with all the weapons who provide most of the social services. My biggest beef with Israel is the whole thing with the settlements...stand up to their own extremists. But I have no doubt overall the Israelis would make peace with the Palestinians if they could. They had the Sinai after the 1973 war yet did return it to Egypt when Anwar Sadat decided eternal state of war with Israel was not in his country's best interests, and actuually made the first move towards peace visiting Israel and speaking to the Knesset. Now Israel must wonder if the Sinai pipeline from Egypt getting weaponry into Gaza is something the Egyptians under Dr. Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood really want to plug up.

I don't see Morsi extending that kind of offer as I don't think the Brotherhood wants to do anything that improves the long term security of Israel. Most I would expect is him lecturing Hamas to cool their jets for awhile and stop making him look bad...at least until the Brotherhood can consolidate its power and influence in Egypt.

In the past I've been very critical towards Israel and the peace process. There really was a golden opportunity two years ago where they could have forged a peace with Palestine but they were too stubborn and foolish to accept it.

That being said, I am a Zionist and support Israel in this particular conflict. Hamas started this with rocket barrages for no reason except to cause trouble. Israel blew up their military chief and now the Arab world is all upset about "Israel's aggression." Meanwhile, Israel respected a cease fire while an Egyptian minister was visiting despite the fact that Hamas still kept firing more rockets.

Hamas is a terrorist organization and always will be. I don't know how many of you remember the Palestinian Infitada of the early 2000s, but I do. Every day, a Hamas suicide bomber would blow up a cafe, restaurant, or shopping center to kill as many Jewish people as possible. It was horrifying. Imagine a 9/11 happening every week in your country. I will never forget what Hamas has done. They are an evil, monstrous terrorist organization. It will never be a legitimate government of the Palestinian people. They hijacked the Gaza strip from Fatah and have lorded over that territory with religious fundamentalism. I hope Israel goes in this time and wipes out the entire hierarchy of the Hamas organization.

In this war, nobody is innocent.

^ There is fair criticism for both sides, but Hamas is a terrorist organization deserving of extinction.

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Originally Posted by AngolaZee

Cant blame us for being jaded. Same ole Netanyahu playing politics with people's lives. It can never be in the interests of Israel to have peace in th ME

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Actually it is in Israel's best interest for peace in the Middle East because they are at constant threat of being destroyed by their Muslim neighbors. If the Muslim's layed down their arms the fighting would stop but if Israel did then they would be completely destroyed.

Israel was perfectly justified in this and I support them over the people who cut gay people's faces off.

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Originally Posted by Kulindahr

Maybe Israel should finally get tough with Hamas.



The Islamists should have learned by now: there are consequences to aggression, especially terrorist aggression. At this point, their barbarism is enough that I'm surprised that Israel hasn't delivered an ultimatum.

What would that ultimatum be? Well, Egypt says it supports the Palestinians. Israel could call the bet, and tell Hamas -- who are the government in Gaza, which makes the attacks an act of war -- that the IDF is coming in, and the Gazans have two choices: hand over every last Hamas member and every last weapon of any sort, or the entire population will be delivered to Egypt.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...or-escalation/

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I agree if anything Israel has been far too nice to the Pallys.

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Originally Posted by Kulindahr

Israel has little choice: their enemy believes in their annihilation, total genocide. The sensible thing to do would by to utterly obliterate that opposition.

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Exactly Hamas has made it clear that they want the genocide of all Jews and Israel to be obliterated. They even praise Hitler and the Holocaust and the Mufti of Jerusalem actually aided Hitler in the Holocaust. The only logical thing to do is to destroy Hamas.

You can't lock people up in a cage and then expect them to be peaceful.

Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist. No, they're not saying Israel should withdraw into its pre-1967 borders.....

They say no Israel..... at all. They want all Jews to live under Islamic control.

Not cool. What kind of government would be open to making a territory governed by extremists a thriving paradise?

I'm against much of what Israel does in regards to treating Gaza but in the case of this war it is almost completely justified.

Hamas started this conflict by repeatedly hurling rockets at Israel and to be quite frank Israel was very patient compared to most other countries in responding.

Turkey threatened Syria blatantly a week or so ago because a rocket came into it's border. One rocket. So why is Israel not justified in defending itself?

Israel is not blameless in the Middle East conflict by any means but Hamas is a terrorist group. Always has been and always will be.

Attacking is justifiable when your land is occupied by others.

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Originally Posted by Geiri85

Attacking is justifiable when your land is occupied by others.

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When Hamas refuses the right of Israel to exist...occupation is understandable. If it's a prison it's almost ENTIRELY of Hamas' making. If Palestinians cannot accept the existence of Israel, and wish to find means to harm Israel...there can be no meaningful negotiating. No Palestinian state EVER in that circumstance. I don't even trust the Palestinian Authority on the West Bank regarding Israel...now trying to do an end run on statehood by crying to the UN to recognize it. The great Israeli Labor political leader Abba Eban once said famously...and it sadly holds true to this very minute: "The Palestinians never fail to waste an opportunity to find a way to waste an opportunity".

I don't favor some of what Israel does either...at times it is too heavy handed and the settlements must be halted as a good faith gesture. But when have the Palestinians truly EVER lifted a finger to peacefully truly resolve their plight? If much is expected of Israel, and in the end they would give East Jerusalem for a real peace... what are the Palestinians, especially the radical elements like Hamas and Islamic Jihad ever going to do? All they have to do is recognize Israel's right to exist in secure and defined borders...they will absolutely NOT even talk about that. In the end Hamas and the other rejectionists among the Palestinians ensure that Palestine will never be free and independent. Israel will not be going away without a fight that would destroy EVERYTHING. Accepting their reality and showing maturity worthy of statehood would be the prerequisite for an independent Palestinian state negotiated peacefully with Isael...secure borders and guarantees of and end to targeting the existence of the Jewish state.

It reminds me of the % fault sitch

The accident was 75% your fault and 25 % the other driver

In this scenario the numbers are 85-15

With Israel as the 15% fault

Ironic

No one is going to be able to resolve this tribal territorial war dating back 3500 years.

No one.

Ever.

Didn't Israel offer the Palestinians everything they wanted during the last days of the Clinton Administration?

They refused.

I don't see much changing in the future. Sadly, the future looks like the past. Read the Bible -- they were always fighting.

Israel chose to improve their lives. Palestinians chose not to and were once some of most educated people in the region.

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Originally Posted by rareboy

No one is going to be able to resolve this tribal territorial war dating back 3500 years.

No one.

Ever.

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One side is looking for a sign..ANY sign...to stop this "tribal" WAR.

The other is looking to do ANYTHING to avoid the right choice for their people.

Clinton tried.... Israel had a Labor prime minister who was as good a partner for peace the Palestinians were going to ever get. Indeed even the famously ultra hawkish Ariel Sharon of Likud later turned towards peace before he fell ill and formed a government of the center looking for peace. Never enough. Yasser Arafat, may he burn in hell instead spat in Clinton's eye and ratched up another intifada. he chose war instead of peace. In the end, the Palestinians are responsible for their own misery, cursed by those who would lead them into their own hell on earth.

Ha!

Explain how Gaza is currently being "occupied" by Israel despite it being handed back in 2005?!

I'm guessing you also support violence then against civilians in Serbia, Turkey, and Russia in regards to their land disputes? Somehow I doubt it.

If anyone deserves their own state who really is unrepresented by one it's the Kurds. Muslim world could give a rat's ass about them.

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Originally Posted by Sausy

If anyone deserves their own state who really is unrepresented by one it's the Kurds. Muslim world could give a rat's ass about them.

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I agree.

The Kurds were totally fucked over by the British in the partition of the Ottoman Empire.

Turkey and Iraq should both cede territory for a Kurdish state.

It will happen around the same time as the PRC Gives up Tibet.

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Originally Posted by rareboy

I agree.

The Kurds were totally fucked over by the British in the partition of the Ottoman Empire.

Turkey and Iraq should both cede territory for a Kurdish state.

It will happen around the same time as the PRC Gives up Tibet.

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And when Indian reservations in the US become nation states.

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Originally Posted by star-warrior

And when Indian reservations in the US become nation states.

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They are in principle, but as with the Israel Palestinian conflict, the sectioned off areas of independence are separated georgraphicaly and thus transportation in and out of the reservations and pallestinian territories are controlled by the dominant military force of the usurping nation.

In both cases, it has brought poverty, elevated mortality rates.. the simillarities are stunning.

The US answers cautiously when the native nations, usually the problem tribes are watched closely, starts inter tribal warfare to decide the right to rule the tribal councils.

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Then late that night, across the street from the glittering Chukchansi Gold Resort and Casino, supporters of Reggie Lewis, the council chairman before the election, tried to smoke Mr. Reid out. Power to the building was cut. A window was broken. Bear spray was discharged into the building. A smoldering log was thrown inside. More windows were broken, and objects were thrown from the building.

The sheriff kept watch, but no arrests were made — on Indian land, he said he had no jurisdiction to deal with property damage.

The standoff finally ended on Tuesday, after a melee outside the building involving at least 20 people from the opposing sides. One man was stabbed in the abdomen, though he was expected to live, while a security guard was bashed over the head, and two suspects were detained. Only then did the local sheriff’s department come in from the sidelines, with more than 100 officers from multiple agencies, and begin clearing the premises. By day’s end, neither faction had control of the building.

“The Bureau of Indian Affairs said it was an internal tribal matter and we had to resolve it through a tribal process,”

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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/29/us...rnia.html?_r=0

I remember more than one or two instances of the Northern tribes up here shooting at and killing US forest agents for trespassing, and as long as they are on their land when they are shooting, the only thing legally to be done is to get out of the way.

There are MANY more immigrants in the USA now than native Americans. In Israel, the proportionate difference in each population causes what we see going on out there.

And can you imagine what the USA would do to a nation that armed one of the militant native american tribes with rockets?

Canada arming the Native americans with these long range rockets would be the exact same thing as what is happening with Egypt arming the Pallestinians. The flow of arms to them is a problem.

Whether Egypt decides to use it's own troops? I think they will this time. I think the millitary council there is looking for a reason to take control of the nation away from the Muslim Brotherhood, and a war with israel would be their way of doing it.

Just curious what people think about this map which shows the transformation of Israel over the years ...

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHART...tellstory.html



Who really is in the right and who is in the wrong?

There has been so much illegal activity over the decades between these groups ... that it really isn't as clear cut as simply saying "Well, Hamas fired rockets into Israel first."

Israel, under international law, appears to have illegally invaded territory that was not awarded to them, and has been condemned by the international community for not returning the land.

At the end of the day, this ugly conflict is nothing more than a land dispute. I understand that Jews feel they are entitled to the land as they originally occupied it in Biblical times.

However, since the Ottoman Empire occupied it for centuries later, and the Jewish people invaded a territory that they did not occupy for centuries because they felt that "Moses told them they had right to this land", they have to understand that there will be very serious and dire consequences ... that I don't feel the United States has any business being a part of.

What is clear is that Israel has greatly (and illegally) expanded its territory since what was originally decreed by the British Mandate. Then, they cry foul when attacked.

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Originally Posted by Just_Believe18

It started with Hamas firing rockets into Israel for the hell of it

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Hamas started firing rockets in retaliation for an Israeli attack that killed a young Palestinian kid and injured an IDF soldier. The areas that are under threat of rocket strikes used to be Palestinian towns. Kiryat Malakhi used to be Qastina.

Not to compare the incomparable, but if we're going to claim lands that we owned once upon a time...

Bulgaria c 900s:




and today:

Personally I don't care who started it. I just care who is going to stop it. This issue needs serious action, or war could spread throughout the region, interestingly, just in time for the USA to become the worlds largest oil producer.

How convenient.

I think that if the Egyptian military took control back, they might make peace with Israel. They peacefully coexisted with Israel for years under Mubarik after all. I don't think they want the Brotherhood in power in Cairo. I don't think the more moderate Egyptians (women included) want them either. It's unfortunate that when these "Arab Spring" revolts start & escalate, it's seemingly the extremists who take control, except hopefully in Libya.

Reminds me of the Reign of Terror in the French Revolution, & 1918-19 in the Russian Revolution, when the hardliners took control.
Lasted til Napoleon with the French, still arguably going on in Russia with Tsar Vlad

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Originally Posted by MystikWizard

Israel, under international law, appears to have illegally invaded territory that was not awarded to them, and has been condemned by the international community for not returning the land.

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Yes, Israel is guilty of being the country with the most violations of United Nations human rights resolutions than any other country in the world. In recent years, Israeli Jews have taken it upon themselves to built illegal settlements outside the boundaries of Israel on Palestinian land. But of course, you won't hear about that in the mainstream media.

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Originally Posted by MystikWizard

At the end of the day, this ugly conflict is nothing more than a land dispute. I understand that Jews feel they are entitled to the land as they originally occupied it in Biblical times.

However, since the Ottoman Empire occupied it for centuries later, and the Jewish people invaded a territory that they did not occupy for centuries because they felt that "Moses told them they had right to this land", they have to understand that there will be very serious and dire consequences ... that I don't feel the United States has any business being a part of.

What is clear is that Israel has greatly (and illegally) expanded its territory since what was originally decreed by the British Mandate. Then, they cry foul when attacked.

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Yep, most Modern Jews descend from Jews who were kicked out of the "holy land" by Romans sometime around 70 AD. Many of these people eventually found their way into Europe and settled there. And yet, many centuries later, European Jews felt they had an entitlement claim to the lands of Palestine. Mind you, Jews weren't the only ethnic groups who resided in those lands in ancient times. But modern Jews feel that only they should have the privilege of living there. Preposterous.

the shit be happening - read the latest on cnn.com - makes me cringe

I have made some Israeli friends in the past few years - some hardcore anti Palestinians, others less so - the bottom line is that in Israel every day you need to be concerned for your safety

missiles targeting Tel Aviv (think NYC, Washington DC) - the Israelis are quite good at war - as they have to be

My hope is that they cripple Hamas - and that someday the Palestinian people will be lead by those who want to better their lives not make war where they cannot win and only increase the misery of the people they are supposed to be representing

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/17/world/...html?hpt=hp_t1

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Originally Posted by Geiri85

You can't lock people up in a cage and then expect them to be peaceful.

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Their forefathers went there willing and pulled a cage up around them.

And when you throw shit at people, what do you expect but that they'll lock you away from civilized people?

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Originally Posted by Geiri85

Attacking is justifiable when your land is occupied by others.

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The only occupation force in Gaza is Hamas.

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Originally Posted by Sausy

If anyone deserves their own state who really is unrepresented by one it's the Kurds. Muslim world could give a rat's ass about them.

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Especially since several international agreements have promised them one. Gutless Bush had the chance to mark his place in history by slicing off part of Iraq and challenging the rest of the region to finish the job, but he blew it.

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Originally Posted by chance1

the shit be happening - read the latest on cnn.com - makes me cringe

I have made some Israeli friends in the past few years - some hardcore anti Palestinians, others less so - the bottom line is that in Israel every day you need to be concerned for your safety

missiles targeting Tel Aviv (think NYC, Washington DC) - the Israelis are quite good at war - as they have to be

My hope is that they cripple Hamas - and that someday the Palestinian people will be lead by those who want to better their lives not make war where they cannot win and only increase the misery of the people they are supposed to be representing

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/17/world/...html?hpt=hp_t1

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There's no such thing as "crippling" Hamas -- it's annihilation or nothing. Anything short of eliminating the whole outfit will mean they'll just start building again, with lots of funding from Iran.

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Originally Posted by MystikWizard

Just curious what people think about this map which shows the transformation of Israel over the years ...

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That my friend is Palestinian propaganda.
In the 1940s, "Palestine" was still a synonym for the Jewish land, and the Palestinians were still symply called Arabs. Moreover, "Palestine" was the southern half of "Syria", that is, today's Israel plus Jordan. As early as the 1920s this was already planned to be divided in a Jewish and an Arab part, meaning the Jews who had been living in the Arab part were expected to relocate after thousands of years. The Arabs got 77%, across the Jordan River, then called Transjordan, which they later called Jordan. The Jews got the remaining 23% between the Jordan river and the sea, then called Cisjordan, though the Jews preferred the name Palestine. But the conflict in Europe put all these plans on hold.

So many pro-Palestinian activists want to make believe the Jews are some kind of new religion who invaded the Arab world in recent years. It's actually the other way around. Back in 1946, there were more than a million Jews living in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Jordan, Iraq, Persia, Syria and what is now Pakistan. How about a right to return for them, with indemnizations for all the land and buildings taken from them? As early as the 19th century, there were more Jews in Jerusalem than Muslims and Christians combined.

uuugh

Can we not have the which side started it debate?

Both sides are at war and both sides stand to lose substantial life as a result of this. It has the posibility to spill out to the entire region. I think people need to not pick either side, and find a way that will stop the war from escalating. America needs to stop believing that their opinion on who is to blame matters.

Really. Blaming one side in this war is like saying you can clap with one hand.

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Originally Posted by Corny

In this war, nobody is innocent.

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That doesn't mean everybody is guilty. Let alone equally guilty. It's not as if Israel has carpet-bombed Dresden just for the fun of it. Or sprayed V-2s all over the West Bank after handing over the keys.

Besides, Israel is a gay-friendly democratic nation, while Hamas is a terrorist cult of homophobic zealots. I'd support Israel over Hamas even if Hamas hadn't done anything else wrong.

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Originally Posted by Zeno Lorea

That my friend is Palestinian propaganda.
In the 1940s, "Palestine" was still a synonym for the Jewish land, and the Palestinians were still symply called Arabs. Moreover, "Palestine" was the southern half of "Syria", that is, today's Israel plus Jordan. As early as the 1920s this was already planned to be divided in a Jewish and an Arab part, meaning the Jews who had been living in the Arab part were expected to relocate after thousands of years. The Arabs got 77%, across the Jordan River, then called Transjordan, which they later called Jordan. The Jews got the remaining 23% between the Jordan river and the sea, then called Cisjordan, though the Jews preferred the name Palestine. But the conflict in Europe put all these plans on hold.

So many pro-Palestinian activists want to make believe the Jews are some kind of new religion who invaded the Arab world in recent years. It's actually the other way around. Back in 1946, there were more than a million Jews living in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Jordan, Iraq, Persia, Syria and what is now Pakistan. How about a right to return for them, with indemnizations for all the land and buildings taken from them? As early as the 19th century, there were more Jews in Jerusalem than Muslims and Christians combined.

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Ack! Bringing in facts....

Good job.

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Originally Posted by Zeno Lorea

That doesn't mean everybody is guilty. Let alone equally guilty. It's not as if Israel has carpet-bombed Dresden just for the fun of it. Or sprayed V-2s all over the West Bank after handing over the keys.

Besides, Israel is a gay-friendly democratic nation, while Hamas is a terrorist cult of homophobic zealots. I'd support Israel over Hamas even if Hamas hadn't done anything else wrong.

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Amen.

I am pro America, and what is best for us is to make sure that as few people on both sides die as possible.

The march to war comes so quickly for us Americans. Why do we have such a national blood lust?

I've got three comments.

Firstly, i support Israel, regardless of its building on 'palestinian' land. I support Israel because it aspires to be a peaceful and modern nation, unlike some in the region.

Secondly, i think the issue of the 'crime' of occupying palestinian land is somewhat redundant, since Palestine is'nt even recognised as a land. Essentially, the people of Gaza and the West Bank, are living within Israel. Palestine doesn't exist anymore. The palestinian leadership over the decades have gone consistently in the wrong direction to achieving an internationally recognised sovereign state. I honestly think its best if Gaza and the West Bank belonged to Israel, and that any Palestinian not happy about that should either move to an arab state, or accept that their lives are no worse off (in fact likely better) if Israel governs the land they occupy.

Lastly, i am quite shocked that Hamas have targetted Jerusalem. This is home to one of the most holy places within Islam, the Dome of the Rock. Should that accidently be destroyed....all hell basically.

It has to do with the NFL.... we are a Neck strained to see the car crash nation.....