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  1. sixthson's Avatar
    Not telling someone is not suppressing, necessarily. No reason for it to come up in every conversation with everyone. It's not like you are ashamed of it. Goran asked if Tomas and I were embarrassed when we applied for our marriage license. He is so self conscious about people knowing he is gay and I'm sure it has to do with the shame his parents have instilled in him.
  2. MNRomantic's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by sixthson
    Heard from the guys yesterday. Michael said Goran told his parents he needs to make a life of his own and he plans to do that with Michael. He told them he hopes they will choose to be part of is life, but if they don't, then that is their choice. Michael said he was so excited, it gave him a boner (which I'm sure he then shared with Goran). Goran told me he still gets depressed thinking about his family. I told him I did, too, and it's been a lot longer for me. We just have to live with some things, because we can't change others, we can only change ourselves. He is doing that.
    Thanks for the update. I'm very glad to hear that Goran decided to tell his parents what he did. He stood up for who he is as a person, and that's awesome! I hate knowing that people suppress themselves because of other people in their lives. I did that for a while. Hell, I still do in some ways. Never told my parent's friends that visited us on vacation this weekend that I'm gay, and completely ignored the presence of my ex in my life, for fear of them rejecting me, and my parents. (They were my parents' friends, not mine, didn't want to get in the middle of that one...) See, I suppressed myself even.

    Anyway, I'm glad for the update, and glad to hear of what happened.

    "You can't change the world, you can only change yourself." ~ Beatrice Wood
  3. sixthson's Avatar
    Heard from the guys yesterday. Michael said Goran told his parents he needs to make a life of his own and he plans to do that with Michael. He told them he hopes they will choose to be part of is life, but if they don't, then that is their choice. Michael said he was so excited, it gave him a boner (which I'm sure he then shared with Goran). Goran told me he still gets depressed thinking about his family. I told him I did, too, and it's been a lot longer for me. We just have to live with some things, because we can't change others, we can only change ourselves. He is doing that.
  4. MNRomantic's Avatar
    Yay!

    Thanks for the update, Dan.

    I was going to say JUST that when you said, "Best I can see, the issues are Goran's." I thought immediately, nope not in a relationship! Any problems, and issues become both of your issues.

    Glad that you had those meetings with them, Dan. Glad that Michael DID NOT tell you to mind your own business.

    Hopeful,
    Dustin
  5. sixthson's Avatar
    Quick update: The guys went back to living together right after our meeting. They still have a long ways to go. Goran asked to meet with me alone because he had questions about intimacy and how to tear down walls that were preventing him from giving himself 100% to Michael. The best I can see, the issues are only Goran's. However, when you are a couple, there is no such thing. You share the good and the bad. So Goran's issues are Michael's and the two will need to work on them if they are to be successful. The other part for Goran was how to stop feeling dirty about being gay and how to get over the shame that his parents have instilled in him since they first suspected he was gay as a teen. Some problems are dealt with only by living life one day at a time, one fear at a time, one rejection at a time. And you have to be strong. When I look back to when I first said something to Michael, I am so surprised he was as open as he was. I'm sure most would have told me to mind my own business. Maybe because he was at his most vulnerable and knowing what he had been through, talking to a stranger was as good as anything else. These are terrific guys.
    I live in hope.
  6. sixthson's Avatar
    Hi Dustin, Goran is Serbian, hence the name. These are two really sweet guys and I can tell they love each other. Love is not always enough, however, as I think you know. At least in their case, it is not one sided. If I had to bet, I would bet that they manage to have a life together even if it means Michael has to compromise more than Goran. I hope it doesn't come to that. I doubt most guys could not do it, in fact. I think Michael's life before Goran helped prepare him for Goran in regards to him being so understanding. He was very close to his mother who died when he was a college student. His parents had a rocky marriage and now he has a rocky relationship with his father.
    Then Michael went through several bad, short-lived relationships, gave up on love, then along came Goran.
    They both readily admit to being messed up in their own ways with their own issues. This is a healthy kind of honesty to bring to a relationship.
    My own struggle with fearing my family and friends would reject me if I chose Tomas would be a mystery to most people, because I had bad parents. We had every kind of abuse, neglect and (at times) starvation. Why would I care what they thought? The only answer I can give is growing up with rejection. It didn't really matter who was rejecting me, it was just the pain of rejection.
    Anyway, ultimately it made me strong (I am MAN, hear me roar!!), but I had to go through dark times. Just so you know, I'm not that strong.
    As for forgiveness, forgiving someone does not mean you let them use you for target practice.
    You may forgive someone for wounding you, but continuing to get in the line of their fire is just foolish. Forgiveness does not mean you are a door mat. Forgiveness helps and heals you more than the other person and often the other person doesn't really receive it.
    In Michael and Goran's case, forgiveness is the fruit of their love. I reminded them of the traditional wedding vows that say "forsaking all others" means parents, as well. Two people who love each other are meant to make a life of their own. Period.

    Just an aside, I think that for many couples, buying a house together, getting a mortgage is scarier than getting married. Buying a house involves the commitment of your money. Marriage only involves the heart. Ha!

    Dan
  7. MNRomantic's Avatar
    Thanks for the update, sixthson.

    Glad to hear that you and Michael had that opportunity to meet before Goran got there. That is indeed a very interesting name, by the way! I like it! Anyway, back to topic. Glad Michael had his emotions under control. I can't say I would have, had I been in a similar situation. I remember when I was trying to accept myself for who I was, too. I knew I was gay when I was pretty young, but didn't want to admit it. My step-father's side was pretty adamant against gay folks, which made it harder to accept who I was. So I can relate to that feeling. I can definitely see how talk of purchasing a home together, and the thought of marriage would be overwhelming to Goran, especially when compiled with the other issues discussed earlier in your comment. I, too, may have been a bit overwhelmed. And no, this isn't about me by any means, of course. I'm just trying to put myself in his shoes.

    I'm glad that they continued to talk, despite everything happening. Also glad that they talked via phone, as opposed to via text message! At least that's what I assume. Glad you were able to lighten the mood a bit with that "twins" joke. As merely an observer, I appreciate your sharing that stuff with them, sixthson, even if just to give them a better perspective of the situations, or something that could potentially happen.

    You've touched on something that you and I both know is important, as you explicitly stated so above. Forgiveness. I'm glad that Michael has been able to forgive Goran despite everything. Glad to hear that he is not impatient. I truly believe that's an important element of love, too. Sometimes I admit I've forgiven probably more than I should have, too!

    You're right - that's not love at all in regards to his parents, if he is required to conform. It's ridiculous if you ask me. I'm sure that Goran does understand that, as you said, and I can definitely see how he would struggle with that at the same time. My family holds a very strong place in my heart. If they didn't support my relationship with my partner, I'm not sure what I would do. It would be difficult to cut my family out of my life if it came to that. I probably couldn't do it. However, at the same time, if they were not to love me for who I am, and couldn't see past the fact that I was in a homosexual relationship, would they truly be family at all? It's a very difficult place to be for poor Goran. I hope that whatever does happen with them that they are happy in the end.

    I appreciate you updating us all, sixthson. In the end, I of course, hope that love prevails. And it will in some shape or form.

    D.
  8. sixthson's Avatar
    A quick update since I have to leave shortly. I met for lunch with Michael and Goran yesterday. Michael is the one I talked to last week. He and I had about 20 minutes to talk before Goran got there and it was nice because he had his emotions under control. He told me Goran has been struggling for years, not only with his parents, but with accepting himself. His father tells him he is not a real man by being homosexual. I've been there and heard that a lot in my life, so I know what damage it causes to a sensitive heart. They've been together six years, living together 4. Michael said something will usually trigger episodes of depression and self hate in Goran, usually his parents, but this time it was talk of buying a townhouse together. Living together is a big commitment, but buying real estate is like signing on the dotted line of forever commitment. This along with Michael proposing marriage lead to the breakup. They have never broken up before, but have had some very difficult, painful times. They've been talking on the phone alot since last week, so it's not like Goran cut Michael off.
    When Goran arrived, Michael introduced us and he hugged me, then he looked at Michael with a sheepish grin and they hugged. There are hugs and then there are hugs. I know hugs. This is the kind of hugs between people who are used to intimacy with each other, tender, yet strong.
    They sat across from me, with their shoulders touching. Body language told me alot.

    We sat and talked quite awhile about normal things, getting to know each other. They each told me how much they had in common. Finally, I said "So, you are two guys who are the same height, same body type (skinny), same color hair and eyes who like all the same things. So, basically, you are twins?". They laughed and it helped lead into more serious subjects. Goran, especially, wanted to hear my story, since I dealt with some of the same issues as he. I can't talk about that time in our lives without reliving some of the pain I unintentionally inflicted on Tomas. I'll admit to it being difficult to control my own emotions when sharing it. The good thing is that I can see things in retrospect, while he is living through it now and unable to see the future clearly.

    As I said before, I am not interested in pushing someone in the direction I think they should go, but neither can I stand by and watch someone drive off a cliff without doing something. We all have choices to make and the consequences need to be ours to own, not anyone elses. That is the danger in telling someone what they MUST do, rather than just sharing your own life.

    I saw something incredibly beautiful yesterday. It's not unusual where there is a breakup for there to be anger and resentment. What I saw is a key element of love: forgiveness. Michael has been experiencing Goran's pain for a long time. Instead of becoming impatient and resentful for being put through all this, he just kept loving him. And Goran's love for Michael was written all over him.
    The question is, will love be enough?
    This isn't just a question of making a mistake now by breaking up. It's about being able to live a lifetime of regret.
    I tried to explain to Goran what unconditional love really is. He knows it because he experiences it every day with Michael. He wants his parents' love and acceptance, but they are offering him their acceptance only if he conforms. That is not love, it isn't even acceptance. He understands that, but still struggles. He has a brother and sister that love him and who are okay with who he is. They like Michael, too. But they won't intercede with their parents on his behalf. They don't want trouble in the family. Apparently, they can't see they already have that.

    When we left, I went for my car, they decided to take a walk down Grand Avenue. Later I got a text from Michael telling me thanks and "we owe you alot". I noticed the "we". I won't read too much into that because they have miles to go and where it ends, I do not know.

    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    and miles to go before I sleep,
    and miles to go before I sleep."

    Robert Frost
  9. MNRomantic's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by sixthson
    Thanks guys, I will update. We could have met today, but it didn't work for me. It is sad and hurts that in the year 2015, that this still happens. I learned something about the bf who left that gives me some insight into him, but in all honesty, it might make things worse because it make his parents even more influential in his life. I will share that later if it really is an issue. I woke up in the middle of the night two nights ago saying "why didn't I think of that". It dawned on me that my nephew might be helpful here. I blogged about him a few years ago. I think I titled it "I sometimes wonder" or something like that, if you want to check out the archives. I assume it is still there. The problem is my nephew is still not completely comfortable in is own skin. He is doing a lot better and no longer drinking but his "friend" is a sweetheart that is very patient and understanding and would do anything for anyone. I know he would be willing to help.
    I can't allow myself to get overly involved with these two guys since they are basically strangers to me and I don't know alot about them. I do trust my own gut on these kinds of things, however and I will move forward cautiously.
    Whatever I say to them, I intend to be direct with them. Whatever I say will not include me guiding them toward any particular decision. I learned a long time ago that these kinds of life issues have to be decided by the person themselves, since they alone pay the consequences for their decisions.
    I will be watching for the update, if you guys do end up meeting this week.

    You're right - it is sad that this happens in 2015.

    Close. It was actually titled "Sometimes I Wonder." (Right words, different order). I've provided a link for reference for those that wish to read (or re-read as the case may be).

    Simply strangers or not, I think it's a good thing that you are trying to do. With that said, I agree it's best to move forward cautiously.

    Best,
    D.
  10. sixthson's Avatar
    Thanks guys, I will update. We could have met today, but it didn't work for me. It is sad and hurts that in the year 2015, that this still happens. I learned something about the bf who left that gives me some insight into him, but in all honesty, it might make things worse because it make his parents even more influential in his life. I will share that later if it really is an issue. I woke up in the middle of the night two nights ago saying "why didn't I think of that". It dawned on me that my nephew might be helpful here. I blogged about him a few years ago. I think I titled it "I sometimes wonder" or something like that, if you want to check out the archives. I assume it is still there. The problem is my nephew is still not completely comfortable in is own skin. He is doing a lot better and no longer drinking but his "friend" is a sweetheart that is very patient and understanding and would do anything for anyone. I know he would be willing to help.
    I can't allow myself to get overly involved with these two guys since they are basically strangers to me and I don't know alot about them. I do trust my own gut on these kinds of things, however and I will move forward cautiously.
    Whatever I say to them, I intend to be direct with them. Whatever I say will not include me guiding them toward any particular decision. I learned a long time ago that these kinds of life issues have to be decided by the person themselves, since they alone pay the consequences for their decisions.
  11. dpnice's Avatar
    Please update if possible.

    It is so sad that some are still required to make a choice. Then it is still bewildering that some will choose family knowing that they will not support or love them as the way they are.

    That story has clouded my day a little.


    David.
  12. rawcowboy's Avatar
    It hurts that this still happens.
  13. sixthson's Avatar
    Love that is not unconditional is no love at all. Probably because of my own experience, it scares the shit out of me that someone would give up true love to keep a family that couldn't possibly love them when they require that of them.

    I will update if we meet next week. Right now, I am empty. That is not easy to admit since I am a very hopeful person normally.
  14. MNRomantic's Avatar
    Thank you for this entry, sixthson.

    The tears still continue to flow down my face.

    I'm glad you had the time to be able to talk to that gentlemen.

    Hopefully they are able to work things out.

    As a hopeless romantic, I will always support love.
  15. justaguy's Avatar
    Truth sets free.

    Never a truer word spoken. Thanks for sharing your story Micah/Dan, regardless of how much it hurts. I know the saying 'a problem shared is a problem halved' is really corny, but it is so apt in this case.
  16. justaguy's Avatar
    Sixthson, thanks for sharing Micah's story with us.

    It's never a good sign when parents drop their kids off at their neighbours so they can go to the bar, and Micah appears to have been dealt a rough hand in this regard, in more ways than one. I hope he somehow gets around to not blaming himself for either his parents or Mr Newberry's behaviour. Easy for me to say, while sitting on my keyboard in New Zealand, not being able to talk to the adult Micah, as he grapples with his feelings.

    The worst thing a parent can say to their child must surely be to tell him he is no good. What sort of life and confidence builder is that, especially as Micah is turning from boy to man, and hoping to gain more independence from his parents? Perhaps that was the reason? Or perhaps the priest helped in some way. One can only hope. I'll look forward to the next installment.
    Updated December 22nd, 2014 at 01:02 AM by justaguy
  17. justaguy's Avatar
    I'm intrigued. Would love to hear more.
  18. sixthson's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DR-B
    Another great entry, Sixthson. Thank you for sharing this with your readers. I can understand some of how you felt in your entry, as I once felt a similar way. It is quite funny how people can change as they get older and mature. I'm sorry to hear of Grace's passing, but I'm thankful you were able to connect with her until her passing.

    Kind Regards,
    DR-B
    Thanks, Dr-B

    The lessons she taught me have caused her to still live in me. I think this is one of the great purposes of life.
  19. DR-B's Avatar
    Another great entry, Sixthson. Thank you for sharing this with your readers. I can understand some of how you felt in your entry, as I once felt a similar way. It is quite funny how people can change as they get older and mature. I'm sorry to hear of Grace's passing, but I'm thankful you were able to connect with her until her passing.

    Kind Regards,
    DR-B
  20. freefall's Avatar
    I'm still wondering why you don't write novels. You're so good with your words, be it the beauty of the complexity or the effortless way of conveying emotions between the fonts.
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