Sicko

[PreTTy PeTe]

i just watched it

a question to americans is the health system in the USA as much as a mess that this movie makes it out to be.

or is michael moore just pushing his own agenda

any bad experiences when you went to the hospital and didn't have insurance.

just asking

[gaypiper]

The health care "system" if it can be called that, works just fine for those who (a) have a job with benefits or (b) can afford it. Apart from either of those two options, there is no "system." I'm planning to see it today after church.

[Hair Hunter]

I have not seen the movie, but I have read reviews of it, and I'm not necessarily a Michael Moore fan, but the healthcare system in the US does have it's problems. 2 1/2 years ago I had a massive heart attack. (without insurance) I was in the hospital for 10 days. When I got out my bills totalled $117,000!!!! and my prescriptions were around $600 per month. I had to file bankrupcy because there was no way for me to be able to pay that amount. They would have worked with me to reduce the amount, but only by about a third. Now having a job with insurance, the insurance companies sometimes deny some coverages calling them either pre existing conditions or them feeling they are not necessary treatments.

Mike

[Brad]

I have a job and health insurance. I've never been "in" the hospital. However doctor visits and emergency room visits are unbelivably priced. I stay away from the health care system. It can ruin you financially. Thank God I'm healthy enough to have that choice.

[gsdx]

When I got out my bills totalled $117,000!!!! and my prescriptions were around $600 per month.

I knew some people in the States who went through a similar thing when the husband went to hospital also with a heart attack. Their bills amounted to over $250,000.

Do they honestly believe that the majority of people are going to have that kind of cash lying around, or to at least have access to it?

[Riverrick]

I haven't seen the movie but do they mention that we expect to get the very best that medical science can offer when we get sick? There is this culture of thought here that when I or my loved one is ill, then pull out all of the stops and work your medical miracles to make us better. Well, that kind of care comes with a price......years of research and training and very specialized equipment and drugs.

Yes, healthcare is overpriced but so are our expectations oversized. We are all going to get old and sick and die so maybe we should all take a few steps back and agree on what's appropriate care and what is too costly for our society to sustain at this time.

[momp57]

My Hubby and I saw it Friday. As his movies typically do, it made me angry. As a teacher, I have the worst insurance I've ever had in my life. I had the best coverage of my life at one of my first and lowest paying jobs.:confused:

[Horschallen]

I can see the "Do Not Resusicate" directives becoming very popular someday. I am fortunate to have a job with health benefits. I am on different medicine, and for my 2 insulins, the monthly combined cost would have been about $1,600, not including test strips and needles which I pay totally. Thanks to insurance, my copay monthly for both insulins is $36. I often wonder what happens if something happens to my job or when I retire. How will I be able to afford the high costs of medical care, and part of me hope that I will either strike it rich or die before I get stuck with these expenses... or even go without medication.

[PreTTy PeTe]

i always wonder if i would be dead today if i lived in the us

and didn't have insurance

i had a bad accident.
i don't know what i cost the province but it must of been more then a million.

if i had to deal with that bill i'd be living on the streets now

me love Tommy Douglas (and his grandson kiefer sutherland oh yea)

[Jannus]

i always wonder if i would be dead today if i lived in the us

and didn't have insurance

i had a bad accident.
i don't know what i cost the province but it must of been more then a million.

if i had to deal with that bill i'd be living on the streets now.

You'd still be alive Petey, just bankrupt. Health care costs are the number one reason for personal bankruptcies in America.

The health care system in America is far worse than Michael Moore presents it, even though I suspect he was trying to exaggerate things.

The odd part is that we spend more per person on health care than any other country on Earth! The system we have rewards inefficiency, and it gets worse every year.

It's not going to change anytime soon, though. Americans hate government involvement in things (even when it works better) and we do not place a high value on health generally (except our own, of course!). We are doomed to watch the system get worse and worse and worse in coming years.

[cumtasteit]

At one point, my mother and I had to make a decision whether to keep my father in the hospital. He was suffering from a virulent cancer. He made the decision himself to come home. I had no idea at the time that Medicare had $$$ limits. His hospital stay, if it had continued, would have bankrupted our family. About two weeks after he came home, he died. Sadly, it was almost fortunate he died because the bills, home care, etc., were continuing. Something is wrong when people have to die because they cannot afford healthcare. We all know it, but we don't take enough action to stop the craziness of the system. Please be aware - the system will not pay out endlessly for your condition or a loved one's illness. If we can spend trillions in Iraq, we can overhaul our healthcare.

[MRMATTX2]

I haven't seen the film and don't plan to. I don't need to watch something like that to know that our system is badly fucked. That we live in the richest country on earth, yet we have millions of people who have no health insurance.

My 84 year old mother was in the hospital for 2 days in May, I saw the bill, it was $23,000. Of course, she is on Medicare - which is for the seniors. Her portion of the bill was $100.00.

Now, if I was in for 2 days with that kind of bill, my portion would be about $4,600.
I have coverage through my employer, a basic HMO. They cover 80% of hospital costs. EVERYTHING has to be pre-approved, if there's something I need that they don't cover, but I needed to have done....it would be at my cost.

I hate to think it's going to get worse, but it probably will. We elect people, and they seem to do what they want, never mind they are supposed to represent us.

UGH. I love my country and all, but I just don't believe this is the best place to be anymore. It just isn't.

[GL]

there is both good and bad with our country's healthcare system. all i can say is that i am thankful my employment affords me a fairly decent health insurance program. i'd be up shit creek without it.

[Riverrick]

If we can spend trillions in Iraq, we can overhaul our healthcare.
Isn't that the sad truth.

[gsdx]

there is both good and bad with our country's healthcare system. all i can say is that i am thankful my employment affords me a fairly decent health insurance program. i'd be up shit creek without it.

A lot of people don't have the benefit of a good job with a decent health insurance program. New York State has recently been advertising a program for parents with children under 18 which would allow the parents health care for their children, the the parents have to apply for it.

What if the parents apply and are denied coverage? What happens then? I'm sorry, but I don't think I could stand to see my child in distress simply because I couldn't afford a hospital visit. I find that thought seriously disturbing and discomforting.

[GL]

A lot of people don't have the benefit of a good job with a decent health insurance program. New York State has recently been advertising a program for parents with children under 18 which would allow the parents health care for their children, the the parents have to apply for it.

What if the parents apply and are denied coverage? What happens then? I'm sorry, but I don't think I could stand to see my child in distress simply because I couldn't afford a hospital visit. I find that thought seriously disturbing and discomforting.

here in texas we have the 'chip' program for kids who's parents make too much money to qualify for medicaid but for whatever reason do not have private health insurance. it's a worth while program that does a great deal of good but its suffered from partisan politics in austin.

you have republicans, who for a myriad of reasons have cut funding to the program and made eligibility requirements and coverage periods so difficult that enrollment figures had dropped substantially. thankfully after the pasting they received at the national level, attitudes within the conservative element in power have changed and many of these roadblocks are being lifted.

parents who do not have coverage either for themselves or their children will still go to their local e/r's. the law forbids the refusal of medical assistance by the hospital for any reason. unfortunately what ends up happening is that the local community ends up absorbing that cost through increased fees and sometimes property/municipal taxes. which makes austin's mucking around with this program and medicaid in general so perplexing. it ends up being cheaper to address these expenses through these programs up front.

[luckotheirish]

[begin:soapbox:]

The healthcare problems in the US are rooted in the same place as our energy problem - extraordinarily well funded special interest groups.

The private health insurance business is a multi-billion $$$ business and they are doing everything they can to keep any form of single-payer system from developing. Such a system would end their industry - even though it's in the public's best interest.

First, no private insurance company is large enough or powerful enough to command a more reasonable cost for treatment. The only "insurance" that comes close to it is Medicare/Medicaid - government programs. They can and DO dictate to ALL providers what charges will be. And providers sqeal like a pig under a gate about it.

Second, having literally thousands of insurance companies all out their duplicating each other's work (each one has a corporate structure...) is incredibly inefficient. A single-payer system (like that in practically every other industrialized society but the US) would eliminate much of that and thereby reduce cost.

Third, those opposed to single-payer complain that there'll be waiting lists like in Canada and the UK. If I understand it correctly, the waiting lists are primarily for things that are not life-threatening or severely debilitating. We here in the US live in a drive-up window society and expect everything RIGHT NOW or sooner.

Fourth, those opposed to the single-payer system say that if you take away the profit motive for development of new treatments, such developments will stop and new treatments won't be found. I don't agree. There are plenty of scientists and researchers who do their job for the thrill of the hunt and the sense of personal satisfaction that comes with discovery. I don't think Thomas Edison was sitting in his lab in New Jersey imagining how rich he'd be when he developed the light bulb, or the phonograph; nor Alexander Graham Bell when he developed the telephone, nor Louis Pasteur when he developed the process that bears his name. Besides, take all the researchers who work for private companies and put them to work at the NIH (National Institutes of Health) and public universities - which BTW is where MOST medical research is done now anyway.

Fifth, those that oppose the single-payer system argue that free-market forces produce the best levels of efficiency - which in the case of healthcare is demonstrably false. Moreover, healthcare is NOT a Toyota or Computer. Consumers don't have complete freedom to move fluidly from bad coverage to good. The vast majority are locked in by their employer for at least a year. The decision about which company to choose is not made by the consumer but instead by the employer - to minimize their cost, not maximize efficiency.

Finally, there is a moral contradiction, IMO, with considering healthcare as a marketable commodity. Isn't withholding treatment from a sick or dying person somewhere up there with battery and murder? Instead of sins of COmmission, these are sins of Omission. Our system turns its back on the sick and suffering every day for no sin greater than being poor. Instead we choose to throw good money after bad into frivolous and despicably wasteful things like "The Bridge to Nowhere" and Iraq.

Our nation is being kept from a much more efficient and humane delivery of healthcare because well funded people don't want anyone screwing with their cash cow. I see it happen to people EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. And it's incredibly shameful. We CAN afford Nationalized Healthcare. We CAN.
[/:soapbox:]

[Shepherd 2]

Thanks for a thoughtful forum discussion.

[metta]

It is a very complicated issue. I'm going to see the movie today as well. :)

-the pharmaceutical industry
-over paid medical workers (not all but the ones that are making several million dollars each year....I do question that). How many $5 million dollar homes do some of these doctor's and administrator upper managers really need? I think that it is unethical to make that kind of money off of the sick.
-health insurance companies
-hospital over charging so that they can get what they need from insurance companies
-prioritizing saving lives at any cost. I feel that it would be better to focus on the quality of life in some situations than saving lives at any cost.

I'm self employed and I have health insurance that I have never used. My best friend made me get it before we bought the house. I have a plan with a very high deductible...something like $3500 that has a saving account attached to it. I plan on switching to a regular health plan eventually. In the mean time, I have been building my medical savings account up so the money will be there when I need it...not that it is very much money.

Medical costs is THE most biggest factor that scares me about the thought of retiring in the future. How can anyone really save enough money to ensure that they will have enough money to take care of medical costs when they are so astronomical?

[Lube]

I haven't seen the movie but do they mention that we expect to get the very best that medical science can offer when we get sick? There is this culture of thought here that when I or my loved one is ill, then pull out all of the stops and work your medical miracles to make us better. Well, that kind of care comes with a price......years of research and training and very specialized equipment and drugs.

Yes, healthcare is overpriced but so are our expectations oversized. We are all going to get old and sick and die so maybe we should all take a few steps back and agree on what's appropriate care and what is too costly for our society to sustain at this time.

Many excellent comments on this thread, but I think Riverrick nails an important point here.

[rotary]

a question to americans is the health system in the USA as much as a mess that this movie makes it out to be.
Just ask yourself if Canada's health system is as good as Moore makes it out to be, and you'll have your answer.

His "documentary" is pure bullshit.

[PreTTy PeTe]

the canadian health system is just amazing
never have to worry to go to the doctor because yea you don't have to pay
never worry if you go to the ER and oh you don't pay anything

yea it has it's problems and flaws

but it saved my life and countless others.

kudos to St. Mikes Hospital aka The Urban Angel
the bestest hospital on the plantet

[rotary]

the canadian health system is just amazing
never have to worry to go to the doctor because yea you don't have to pay
never worry if you go to the ER and oh you don't pay anything

yea it has it's problems and flaws

but it saved my life and countless others.

kudos to St. Mikes Hospital aka The Urban Angel
the bestest hospital on the plantet
Physician shortages leave millions of Canadians without a doctor, wait times that force some people to leave the country for specialized surgery or sit in pain for weeks until their turn, what a perfect system!

It's good here, but not great, and definitely not the perfect setup Moore tries to paint for his viewers. Take what you saw with a grain of salt.

[PreTTy PeTe]

Physician shortages leave millions of Canadians without a doctor, wait times that force some people to leave the country for specialized surgery or sit in pain for weeks until their turn, what a perfect system!

It's good here, but not great, and definitely not the perfect setup Moore tries to paint for his viewers. Take what you saw with a grain of salt.

honestly never had a problem in ontario.
i can get an MRI in a week.
or whatever i need so fast.

is it alberta that's messing things up for you.

[gsdx]

is it alberta that's messing things up for you.

I wouldn't think so. He lives in Saskatchewan.

[PreTTy PeTe]

I wouldn't think so. He lives in Saskatchewan.

oh yea regina i just noticed

thanks for that GSDX

[gsdx]

oh yea regina i just noticed

thanks for that GSDX

Not a problem.

[doctorsun]

It's as bad as Michael Moore makes it out to be. I just saw the movie and I was very deeply affected by it. It's an amazingly important movie for all Americans to see. The way we treat our citizens is disgusting. It's fucking shameful that we are the richest, most powerful country in the world and we treat our middle class like shit.

If I had the resources, I would move to Canada because I'm fucking sick and tired of this country's corruption and greed and shameless disregard for its citizens.

[PreTTy PeTe]

but do you have to call your HMO before you go to the doctor?

[doctorsun]

but do you have to call your HMO before you go to the doctor?

I don't have an HMO, but those who do have them do have to call to get authorization to go to the doctor unless they go to one that's within the pre-approved network of GPs. Anything else, such as having to see a specialist requires a referral and authorization.

[PreTTy PeTe]

I don't have an HMO, but those who do have them do have to call to get authorization to go to the doctor.

so in the middle of the night and you feel really sick

they have to call an HMO.

and they decide your care?

what's happens if you call 911.... do they bill you?l

[Riverrick]

I don't have an HMO, but those who do have them do have to call to get authorization to go to the doctor unless they go to one that's within the pre-approved network of GPs. Anything else, such as having to see a specialist requires a referral and authorization.
Its not that big of a deal. Why would you want to go to a GP other than your own? If you need a referral, you either call your doctor's office or go in and see him first. A lot of times he takes care of the problem and you don't have to see the specialist.

Also, a lot of specialists don't require preauthorization, such as Podiatry, OB/GYN, Pediatrics, and sometimes Ortho, Cardiology, and Dermatology.

I could understand the exasperation if YOU had to do the work but its your doctor's office that has to do the extra legwork. ER visits are always covered in these plans as long as they are emergencies, so you should have no fear of calling 911.

[doctorsun]

ER visits are always covered in these plans as long as they are emergencies, so you should have no fear of calling 911.

Until you get the bill for the ambulence ride, the prescriptions for any medications you need, and any services you received in the hospital that your insurance provider decided were unnecessary.

Believe me, I've been through the system. Michael Moore didn't exaggerate anything.

[Hard-up1]

Health care in the U.S. is a disgrace.

Insured or not, you spend 10 mins. in doctor's office, and they act like they're doing a frickin' favor to spend that long.

They don't remember you, they seem to resent having to touch you, and they rarely use as much bedside manner as the average veterinarian.

As for access, the working classes bitch endlessly about illegal alien burdens on the system, welfare moms, etc., but not a word about the trillions we spend on more missiles lying around that it would take to blow up the moon. I know, as I used to work in a missile factory.

Yes, there are those who abuse the system, but the whole thing is a big racket, about as ethical as the defense industry.

I'm not saying there aren't individuals who are there to serve people and care about them, but there are fewer and fewer.

I'm ashamed of the standards the U.S. has for access, especially for the poor. Although the elderly are covered largely, it is often the case that they are treated poorly, and all of their available income is consumed by medicine and treatments. Who wants to live to be old under those circumstances.

Even the healthy, jogger-biker-fitness types break down with something.

I want to be proud of America, but for reason, not rote repetition.

[doctorsun]

I want to be proud of America, but for reason, not rote repetition.

Amen. Really, this movie made me ashamed to be an American. For all of the problems this country has developed, most can be blamed on the current administration and I have kept the attitude of "I love my country, but I the president." But seeing this, knowing what I already experienced in my own life...it's just made me ashamed. This problem is a decades-old issue that's grown and grown and grown until it's just completely out of control now. The US will never see decent healt care.

[gsdx]

The US will never see decent healt care.

Is it not possible? Here in Canada, each province has its own health care system which, I believe, is federally funded as well. In Ontario, it is OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) and is mostly paid for by premiums paid into it. It's the same as regular insurance, I suppose, except that it's province-wide and covers everybody. Surely something like that could happen in the United States. I'm sure the citizens wouldn't mind paying premiums if they get the coverage.

[doctorsun]

The problem with that is that it never gets to be voted on by the people. Congress is so deep into the drug and insurance companies' pockets that they'll pass ANY bill that supports their profits, not the well-being of the people.

[gsdx]

^^ Oh, dear. I didn't know that.

[doctorsun]

^The system is shamelessly corrupt and they don't even try to hide it.

[gsdx]

It appears they've got you by the proverbial balls.

[doctorsun]

^Precisely. Everyone has to go to the hospital at some point...

[frankfrank]

The problem with that is that it never gets to be voted on by the people. Congress is so deep into the drug and insurance companies' pockets that they'll pass ANY bill that supports their profits, not the well-being of the people.

And even if an individual Congress-person DID NOT get lavished on, in one way or another, by the health-"care" lobby, they probably have a large portfolio which includes health-care stocks, and they will generally vote in ways that will enhance the values of their portfolios.

The best way for the health-care industry to profit, is to deny care as much and as often as possible.

See Post #12 (MRMATTX2). I DO have health insurance, and it's nothing near as rosy as his analysis. I had a problem in 2003 which ran up nearly $27,000 in medical bills. After the insurance company taking MONTHS to pay what they decided to pay, with the hospital and everyone else on my ass, I was pretty well "beaten down" where I didn't feel I could fight the insurance company anymore, and they knew it. Of course this is part of their strategy, take FOREVER to pay, don't pay until the patient is considered on the verge of default, and the patient will have to settle for whatever the insurance decides to pay.

In my case they paid about ONE-HALF of my costs. I had to come up with the rest. Crummy insurance, considering I'm shelling out more than $6,000 a year in premiums.

[doctorsun]

In my case they paid about ONE-HALF of my costs. I had to come up with the rest. Crummy insurance, considering I'm shelling out more than $6,000 a year in premiums.


Exactly...we have to work our asses off just so we get the ABILITY to get ACCESS to insurance through our a work. We pay dearly for it and it's worthless. Everything is "pre-existing" or "does not fall under the coverage of your plan."

[gsdx]

The best way for the health-care industry to profit, is to deny care as much and as often as possible.

Exactly...we have to work our asses off just so we get the ABILITY to get ACCESS to insurance through our a work. We pay dearly for it and it's worthless. Everything is "pre-existing" or "does not fall under the coverage of your plan."

Why does the Christian Children's Fund work so hard to get Third-World children some health care when this is going on at home? I'm sorry, but it tears me apart inside to think of a child being in pain because Daddy and Mommy don't make enough money to take the pain away.

[doctorsun]

...because Daddy and Mommy don't make enough money to take the pain away.

...but they make too much to be able to be on welfare and get free health coverage from the government.

If you want any kind of decent health care in the US, you either need to be very rich or very poor. The middle class, which makes up the majority and is the backbone of the nation gets fucked right and left by the health industry.

[2gayguys]

And it's not just cost of care but quality too.
Last year when my former wife was in the end stages of her cancer, her visting nurse decided it was time for her to go to the hospital. The nurse was right. The Nurse made three phone calls 1 to my wife's doctor, 2 to th ambulance company for transport and 3 to my wife's hospital, where she ahd received a large amount of her care.
Her doctor also called the E.R. at the hospital to let them know that a patient of their's ( his and the hospitals) was being transported by ambulance for intermediate care.
The ambulance driver radioed the hospital to advise them of whothey were transporting and why.
My former wife wasn't seen by anyone for other than a triage nurse for more than for hours. She was in the er literally screaming and crying for her pain meds. It finally to my daughter going up to the charge nurse and swearing at her. Screaming at her to go some fucking meds for my mother, before anyone did anything.When I got there the next day,I was appointed health care advocate for her by our daughter and my wife's husband. We had a meeting with the staff social worker that went something like this. We can keep her here for three days as that is all that the insurance will allow. We told her of our plans to get her to this particular hospice and anything she could do to help would be greatly appreciated. She got back to us later in the day saying we may have to take her until a bed opens up at the hospice. I went into my nurse mode then telling her what had happened at the er the previous day. I also told that nurses take an oath after graduation promising to be an advocate for their patients. Where was the advocacy hte previous day. I also told her that part of the Hippocatic Oath that doctors swear by is "cause no one pain and suffering". Where were the doctors the previous day?
That meeting was over and we went back to my wife's room. A couple of hours later the social worker tracked us down to inform us that regardless of how long it took or what insurance would cover, that they would keep my wife until a hospice bed was available.
It took hours of meetings and phone calls to different department heads includin a couple of Vice Presidents to get that, which should have been offered from the start. Here was their patient coming in, they were informed by three different people, three different ways that this person was coming. They should have been ready, period.
Someone earlier said we have an instant mentality, that we want it right now, well you know what, when it comes to a human life, your damn right. For me it's not just family either, it's any person, from any walk of life. They, we all deserve the very best. Screw the cost, help the patient. Forutnately for my wife she didn't have to endure the health care neglect for much longer. After 3 days in the hospital, a bed opened in the hospice facility and after 5 days theere she passed with our daughter by her side.
This is human life, not corporate life.

[KennyD]

I was recently in the hospital for a heart attack . It was a mild one and I was kept for only two days ... Thank God, I had a Medicare HMO ! My hospital bill was close to $45,00 ..and I only had to pay $155.00 .....
ANYONE on Medicare should see if there is a Medicare HMO in your area . Most are ran by Humana and United Health Care . They are not the BEST solution to all the problems .. BUT I'm paying a lot less that if I had paid straight Medicare ....

Also; If you are a veteran ; you can get in many cases ..health care from the VA . I get my two types of Insulin from the VA for only $7.00 a vial as wellas my pills run $7.00 per script . My syringes and test strips are also FREE. I get FREE glasses once a year after an exam by an Opthomologist (sp) instead of some girl with little trainning at Wal mart . So; if anyone is a Veteran .. ya' might want to try going to a VA clinic or VA Hospital and signing up .

[gsdx]

My mother spent the last two months of her life in hospital. For the first month, she was in a double room and shared with several other patients during that time. She was bedridden and paralysed from the waist down.

In early December, she was moved into a single room when it was discovered that she was in much more serious condition that originally thought. Soon she was taking morphine and was eventually put on a morphine drip. She failed health-wise extremely quickly and died early in the morning of the day after Christmas.

OHIP paid the entire thing. Whatever she needed to keep her comfortable, she received. No questions asked. The hospital submitted the bills to OHIP and that was it.

Our health care system may not be the best in the world, but Mom's hospital stay cost us nothing and we didn't have to worry about how we were going to pay for it.

[frankfrank]

How often is it, when I talk about health care in other modernized countries, the person I'm talking to asks me a question like "But would you want to pay your taxes at the rates they pay in Canada or Germany?"

I get that reaction MORE OFTEN THAN NOT!

My answer to the comparative taxation question?

HELL YEAH I WOULD!!!! GLADLY!!!

The $6,000+ per year that I'm paying for insurance, as well as my clinic visits, routine blood tests and routine diagnostic tests (such as X-rays or colonoscopies), and prescriptions, *NONE* of which my insurance covers, add up to

**MORE**

than I would be paying in taxes in Germany, when I add those amounts to the taxes I pay!

Give me the higher taxes of some other country, and the FREE health care that comes along with it, any day. I'll be able to keep MORE of the money that I earn!

Or even give me the health care system in a country which doesn't guarantee coverage for everybody, but the care is priced reasonably and affordably - Colombia comes to mind as one such example. (I just don't know about the systems in many of these countries, otherwise.) I'm told that health care there is as good or better than normal U.S. healthcare, and I get the drift that something that costs $180,000 here might cost as little as $2,000 or $3,000 there.

[metta]

I thought that the documentary was excellent and entertaining. I would encourage every one living in the US to watch it.

California has a bill that they are trying to get approved for Universal Health Care. I will start a new thread to encourage people from California to support it.

[davy]

...
California has a bill that they are trying to get approved for Universal Health Care. I will start a new thread to encourage people from California to support it.

i'm going to hate myself for saying it, but:

all it's going to take to defeat that, or any other bill like it in this country, is to make a few commercials about how "illegal aliens" are going to jump across the border to take advantage of the new system.

[metta]

i'm going to hate myself for saying it, but:

all it's going to take to defeat that, or any other bill like it in this country, is to make a few commercials about how "illegal aliens" are going to jump across the border to take advantage of the new system.


I hope that people will be more rational than that and consider how they will ever have a chance to retire, and the potential for their quality of life to be destroyed with the possibility of having to pay astronomical health care costs. I would think that businesses would support this. Most businesses are really having trouble offering health care benefits because of the annual rate of increased costs.

I was just talking to one of my friends today about this. He gets horrible healther care coverage and the healther care company gets over $600 per month. Half is now paid by his employer, a small mom and pop business, in which he was recently told that the employer will not be able to offer help of the coverage next year because he can't afford the annual increase costs, even though, each year, they cut the coverage they have.

[Ninja108]

Yes, the health care system here in the U.S. sucks. Some E.R. visits cost more than a person makes in a year. Having siad that, the health care systems of Canada, England and others have to have a flaw in there somewhere. Nothing is free, there is ALWAYS a catch somewhere.

[Kennyworth]

I am an Army veteran and I have had pretty good luck at Veterans Administration hospitals...

I have heard horror stories about some of them though, and the the one I spent a few days at in San Francisco was a little scary..

I had a tumor like growth my spine a few years ago that was really making life miserable (could have lead to paralisis and blindness)..

It took six months of excruciating pain till they figured it out..

Once they finally did an MRI ,I had an operation a few hours later and spent a couple of weeks in the hospital, with a long recovery at home..

It didn't cost me a dime.

[doctorsun]

Yes, the health care system here in the U.S. sucks. Some E.R. visits cost more than a person makes in a year. Having siad that, the health care systems of Canada, England and others have to have a flaw in there somewhere. Nothing is free, there is ALWAYS a catch somewhere.

Ask a Canadian. They pay taxes for their health care which usually amount to less than the average American pays for insurance policies and uncovered medical care in a given year.

[gsdx]

Having siad that, the health care systems of Canada, England and others have to have a flaw in there somewhere. Nothing is free, there is ALWAYS a catch somewhere.

It is not 'free'. As I said earlier, we have provincial health insurance plans and we pay premiums into the system. We all apply for and receive Health Insurance identification cards. If we go to our doctors or to the hospital, virtually everything is covered. Throughout my entire lifetime, I can't ever recall paying so much as a penny even for an X-ray or stitches or anything else.

In other words, if I have a health emergency and have to call 911, I know I don't have to worry about not having enough money to pay for the ambulance ride or my hospital visit or my hospital bed. They're already paid for.

[PreTTy PeTe]

^actually you get billed for the ambulance

it's not covered by OHIP. sometimes the hospital pays it for you

[gsdx]

^actually you get billed for the ambulance

it's not covered by OHIP. sometimes the hospital pays it for you

Oh. Didn't know that. Never needed an ambulance.

[JR]

A few months back I was 99% sure that I had gallstones and needed my gallbladder yanked out. So I went to the ER for and ultrasound. I had read the classic indications, memorized them and repeated them over and over. Once they discovered that i had good insurance, they decided that my chest pain indicated heart failure. I restated that I had no chest pain over and over. Ultimately I was assigned a cardiologist who tried desperately to delay my ultrasound because he wanted in on the action. I told him point blank that if he did anything to delay the care I actually needed so that he could pay for his BMW that I was going to hunt him down and kill him if I survived. And even though I refused his treatment I was still pasted with nitro patches and tagged with a cardio monitor for days. Cost: $6800.

I did get my ultrasound, but after the results came in that there were large stones, they decided they needed to double check the results with an MRI. There are facilities all over Miami where you can get an MRI for under $400, but at this hospital, it cost $7200.

I was admitted to the hospital and the following morning the gorgeous, young admitting doctor read my results and told me that my tests came back positive but that things were already well healed and that I would be released the next day. A surgeon would lead a team meeting later to discuss the matter, but this doctor wanted to release me. 5 minutes later an older and respected surgeon came in and explained that my gallbladder was badly diseased and that there was a good possibility that I would die if I didn't have immediate surgery. Now what do you do with information that is so contradictory?

The next morning when Dr. Mc Hottie came in to release me, I was down in surgery. And sure enough things were pretty bad in there. After a few days i was released and I received my $48,000. bill.

Part of this bill was some rather unskilled nursing care. And through a VERY stupid mistake by a nurse that was vigorously defended by the chief of nursing, my innards were severely messed up and i had to be re-admitted for emergency surgery.

This time I was in REALLY BAD shape. I had 9 different doctors constantly checking on me. This time, I had 4 MRIs, 3 more surgeries, gallons of IV drugs, dozens of tests, and i was in for a much longer stay. Based on the previous bill, I was able to fugure out the I was going to get a $200,000 bill. But it was $26,000. My best guess is they didn't want to tempt fate with the insurance company when it came to correcting a mistake made in the hospital. But still, 2 months after the operations, I don't know whether I owe $1340 or $28,700. I have statements that say both and the billing is a mess. I know that my personal responsibility is for the $1340, but who knows if the insurance company is going to pay the rest. The whole thing is such a gang bang.

The entire "system" is diseased. There isn't a reason in this world that a 2-hour gallbladder surgery should cost more than $5000. How they can legally make a case for 10 times that amount really is SICKO!!!

[gsdx]

I have to be honest here. You can read all the reports you want and watch all the interviews and hear all the horror stories about things like this happening, but it's a kick in the face when you hear someone you know talking about it.

As much as Michael Moore might influence me were I to watch his movie, I don't think it would affect me half as much as some of the stories I've read right here.

[doctorsun]

I broke my leg in 2004. At the time, I had (really shitty) insurance and I went to the hospital and had it was casted and everything was fine. I had to visit an orthopedic specialist every week for the following three months. My insurance covered some of my bills, but I still received bills from the specialist to pay for what wasn't covered. However, I never received a bill from the hospital for my initial ER visit. Several months later, I was visiting my father at his house and he handed me this stack of bills from the hospital. For some reason, they had sent everything to his address despite the fact that I was over 18, signed into the ER with MY OWN name and all related information, and used MY OWN insurance. My father's name was nowhere on ANY of my paperwork, much less his address. So, not only did I have this stack of bills, but my account was in default and my credit was being affected because they had been sending me bills for months and I wasn't paying them. So...I called the hospital and I was livid. I bitched this woman out about how there's no way I can pay bills that I don't receive because of some clerical error on their part that made absolutely no sense. It turns out that they LOST my address and filed through their records trying to find a relative of mine to whom they could send my bills. What kind of bullshit is that? All of this for an ER bill that was less than $200.

[PreTTy PeTe]

i found a link to the entire movie

it's ok you can watch it michael moore dosen't mind. in fact he wants people to watch it online.......

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6547358554002021486

[cabal74]

Yes things are as bad as they seem. It is time to overhaul the system.

[Matthew]

Jacob and I went and saw this and Transformers last night. I have this story to share and they actually touched on it in the movie.

The ladies up at work were telling me about something that happened about two years ago where I work. Their bosses were trying to get competitive quotes from insurance comapnies so they had all the employees fill out applications. They told all the workers to only put down the serious things like diabeties, cancers, heart surgeries and stuff like that in the previous history section. Reason being, the less issues the lowere the quote. Lower the quote and the less the business will have to pay. Several people didn't want to and they assured the people that these were not the real forms. So they signed with Blue Cross/Blue Sheild and everyone had to fill out the applications again. The next year was a nightmare for health claims. Blue Cross/Blue Sheild denied them treatment left and right because they claimed their applications were inaccurate and that they had pre-existing stuff they never claimed even though they declared all this stuff on the second application.

Business and healthcare, they both wanna fuck you.

[frankfrank]

^ Yup, as soon as you got to the part about "only put down the serious things," I saw that coming. If they find out that you had a bloody nose in 1992, there are probably companies that will try to deny your claim because of an undisclosed pre-existing condition.

[PreTTy PeTe]

i found a link to the entire movie

it's ok you can watch it michael moore dosen't mind. in fact he wants people to watch it online.......

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6547358554002021486

the link is gone already

i'm uploading it to stage6 again

when it's done i'll post it here

[metta]

the link is gone already

i'm uploading it to stage6 again

when it's done i'll post it here

hey pretty...got link?

[metta]

http://pol.moveon.org/sickoflierweek/

http://craphound.com/images/moveonsicko.jpg

MoveOn members are calling on the presidential candidates -- Republicans and Democrats -- not to take campaign money from the HMOs, big health insurers, and drug companies. They get a fair amount of money, but not so much that they couldn’t give it up if forced to.
MoveOn members are going to more than 7,000 screenings with hundreds of thousands of fliers asking people to call presidential candidates with a toll-free number we set up. You just call and connect to the candidate of your choice.
Go see this movie -- and bring along some fliers.

[metta]

I thought that the documentary was excellent and entertaining. I would encourage every one living in the US to watch it.

California has a bill that they are trying to get approved for Universal Health Care. I will start a new thread to encourage people from California to support it.


http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167459&highlight=californians

[metta]

:wave:


Michael Moore slams CNN, Wolf Blitzer on live TV
He is very passionate and agressive about the things he says but that does not mean that what he is saying is not true.




The following video is from CNN's The Situation Room, broadcast on July 9.

AlXikq7ckPc


Michael Moore slams CNN, Wolf Blitzer on live TV
07/09/2007 @ 7:06 pm
Filed by David Edwards and Josh Catone

And if you want to know what YOU CAN DO about our broken healthcare system go to: <a http://www.myspace.com/onecarenoworg Before a live interview with documentary filmmaker Michael Moore, CNN aired a segment entitled "Sicko Reality Check" in which Dr. Sanjay Gupta, the network's chief medical correspondent, aimed to keep Moore "honest" and fact check his new film, Sicko. The 4-minute piece concluded that Moore "did fudge the facts," and implied that Sicko was misleading in portraying health care systems in other countries, such as France, the UK, and Canada, as better than the one in the US. When given a chance to speak, Moore immediately put host Wolf Blitzer on the defensive. "That report was so biased, I can't imagine what pharmaceutical company's ads are coming up right after our break here," said Moore. "Why don't you tell the truth to the American people? I wish that CNN and the other mainstream media would just for once tell the truth about what's going on in this country." Moore argued that CNN has such a lousy track record of reporting the truth about the war in Iraq and asking tough questions, that Americans should be skeptical of their reporting on health care. "You're the ones who are fudging the facts," said Moore. "You've fudged the facts to the American people now for I don't know how long about this issue, about the war, and I'm just curious, when are you going to just stand there and apologize to the American people for not bringing the truth to them that isn't sponsored by some major corporation?" Blizter grew defensive and backed up his fellow CNN employee, saying that he would stand behind correspondent Sanjay Gupta's record on medical issues. Moore, in response, vowed to post a rebuttal to his website, MichaelMoore.com, showing that Gupta's facts weren't accurate. "I'm going to put the real facts up there on my website," said Moore, "so that people can see what he just said was absolutely wrong." Turning to the war in Iraq, Moore accused Gupta, who spent time embedded with US troops in Iraq, and the mainstream media at large of refusing "to ask our leaders the hard questions, and demand the honest answers." Moore laid the blame for the continued US involvement in the war in Iraq at the feet of the media, arguing that they failed to do their jobs and question the Bush war policy. Blitzer refused to argue with Moore about Iraq, and instead steered the conversation back to the topic of health care. Moore was asked which of the US presidential candidates he thought would best fix America's health care system. Moore did not name a specific candidate, but said that the Democratic candidates as a whole need to be more specific about how they plan to achieve their goal of universal health care. "Our own government admits that because of the 47 million who aren't insured, we now have about 18,000 people a year that die in this country, simply because they don't have health insurance. That's six 9/11s every single year," concluded Moore. We need "universal health care that's free for everyone who lives in this country, it'll cost us less than what we're spending now lining the pockets of these private health insurance companies, or these pharmaceutical companies." After the interview, Blitzer found sympathy from fellow CNN hosts Lou Dobbs and Jack Cafferty. "After watching that Michael Moore interview," said Cafferty, "I've decided whatever CNN's paying it ain't enough."


http://michaelmoore.com/

[theblackajah]

For those who want the perspective of a Canadian on Canadian Health Care, let me just say a few things: First off, yes, we get all necessary health care paid for (I'm not sure about ambulance rides though...).

Is it perfect? Hell no. There are flaws and problems, depending on the province (As each province runs its system a bit differently). I live in BC, and our system has a few kinks such as (supposedly) long wait times for SOME specialized treatments like hip replacements. This is understandable due to the concept of supply and demand- The sudden increase in demand for specialized health care has suddenly boomed with an aging population, but it takes YEARS (half a decade) to train doctors! Go figure.

Overall though, I must say, I love our health care system over here in the north. If I have a medical need, all I have to do is go to the nearest walk-in clinic, wait about 30 minutes, and a doctor will see me about my cold, etc. If it's my regular doctor, I don't even have to fill out any paperwork- just go in, get checked, walk out the door. All free.

<3 Canada.

[Rali_hates_Mondays]

Oh my god I didn't realise that health costs would be so expensive. I'm so thankful that we have a free nationalised health service in Britain. I don't mind the long waiting lists and I would much rather pay more tax than pay huge health bills.

[frankfrank]

Yeah, I worry that, being a sole employee of my company and having insurance through an association, anything chronic could wipe me out. The last time I had a problem (2003) I had to pay about one-half of the $26,000 of bills. What if something became $200,000 or $300,000? I understand they can even get away with dropping you midstream, leaving you to fend for yourself. Very, very scary - as well as UTTERLY UNCIVILIZED AND BARBARIC - stuff. There is absolutely no excuse that the United States should have such a shabby system.

[metta]

CNN Admits All Sicko Facts Are True to Their Source


The saga finally ends........ What took them so long? See letter from Michael Moore below.


CNN Throws in Towel, Admits to Two Errors, and States That All 'Sicko' Facts Are True to Their Source (or something like that)... Moore Realizes All This is Huge Distraction and Then Spends More Precious Time Thanking Paris Hilton for Seeing 'Sicko'... Meanwhile, More than 300 Americans Die Because They Had No Health Insurance During the 8-Day Gupta-Moore War...

July 17th, 2007


Friends,


The mighty CNN, in a lengthy and sad online defense of their woe-begotten 'Sicko' story (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3LnlvdXR1YmUuY29tL3dhdGNoP3Y9SnBLb0 40MEs3bUE=) of last Monday, has admitted that they did indeed fudge at least two of the facts in their coverage of my film and have apologized for it:


1. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN: "To be clear, I got a number wrong in my original report, substituting the number 25, instead of 251." -- My Conversation with Michael Moore (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNubi5jb20vSEVBTFRIL2Jsb2dzL3BhZ2 luZy5kci5ndXB0YS8yMDA3LzA3L215LWNvbnZlcnNhdGlvbi13 aXRoLW1pY2hhZWwtbW9vcmUuaHRtbA==), July 11th, 2007; and


2. CNN: "Moore is correct. Paul Keckley left Vanderbilt in late 2006." -- CNN's Response to Michael Moore (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNubi5jb20vMjAwNy9TSE9XQklaL01vdm llcy8wNy8xNS9tb29yZS5ndXB0YS9pbmRleC5odG1s), July 15th, 2007.


Furthermore, CNN confirmed that all of our statistics in "Sicko" are the correct numbers from the sources we cited. Although CNN still prefers to use older World Health Organization statistics, we will stick to using this year's Bush administration stats and more recent U.N. data. (In "Sicko," we consistently use only U.N. Human Development Statistics unless it's for studies they don't do or have recent numbers for.) CNN did apologize for these two factual errors, but no apology seems to be coming for the rest of their errors. These days, to get the mainstream media to admit they were wrong is rare; to get them to admit it twice, as they have with "Sicko," I guess should be considered a whopping victory. Will they eventually apologize for the rest, or for their reporting on the war? Will the Cubs win the World Series this year?


So the truce has been signed, the peace pipe has been smoked. And the public is left with a much more cautious and wary eye when it comes to CNN. To be fair, this is what happens when you have to grind out "news" 24 hours a day, seven days a week, with a staff you have shrunk through layoffs over the years (like all the broadcast networks have done). You end up rushed and having interns do your research. You have robots replace live camera operators. And, if you're CNN, you are constantly dodging the accusation that you are "too liberal." So when you do a piece on someone like me, you have to make sure you add superfluous and standard ad hominems attacking me simply to prove that you are NOT too liberal. I get it.


Until the last month or so, I have not appeared on a single national TV show for nearly 2 and 1/2 years. After the attacks I had to endure three years ago, from a media intent on questioning my patriotism because I dared to speak out against the war when none in the media would, I decided I had had enough and would simply concentrate on making my next film. I had no desire to participate in networks that were complicit in the war because of their refusal the challenge the commander in chief.


I have to admit, though, I do feel kinda bad taking it all out on Wolf Blitzer. It's not like he's the official representative of the mainstream media. I mean, he's from Buffalo, for crying out loud! He said to me at the end of the show last week to please come back on "anytime you want." I will take him up on that offer and appear again with him tomorrow (Wednesday). I'm not expecting a dozen roses or make-up sex -- I only want a promise that there will be no more distorted distractions so we can have a decent discussion about the REAL issues like why 18,000 Americans die every year because they don't have a health insurance card. More than 300 of them died this week. As Ehrlichman said to Nixon in "Sicko": "The less care they give 'em, the more money they (the insurance companies) make."


THAT'S the only thing we should be talking about. How profit and greed are killing our fellow Americans. How profit and private insurance have to be removed from our health care system. CNN should join me in asking why our 9/11 rescue workers aren't receiving medical care. Somebody should send a crew to Canada to find out why they live longer than we do, and why no Canadian has ever gone bankrupt because of medical bills. And all of the media should start saying how much it costs to go to a doctor in these other top industrialized countries: Nothing. Zip. It's FREE. Don't patronize Americans by saying, "Well, it's not free -- they pay for it with taxes!" Yes, we know that. Just like we know that we drive down a city street for FREE -- even though we paid for that street with our taxes. The street is FREE, the book at the library is FREE, if your house catches on fire, the fire department will come and put it out for FREE, and if someone snatches your purse, the police officer will chase down the culprit and bring your purse back to you -- AND HE WON'T CHARGE YOU A DIME FROM THAT PURSE!


These are all free services, collectively socialized and paid for with our tax dollars. To argue that health care -- a life and death issue for many -- should not be considered in the same league is ludicrous and archaic. And trust me, once you add up what you pay for out-of-pocket in premiums, deductibles, co-pays, overpriced medicines, and treatments that aren't covered (not to mention all the other things we pay for like college education, day care and other services that many countries provide for at little or no cost), we, as Americans, are paying far more than the Canadians or Brits or French are paying in taxes. We just don't call these things taxes, but that's exactly what they are.


See you all when I'm back on CNN tomorrow -- where the discussion will be not be about whose statistics are right, but rather about the guy without insurance who died while I was writing this letter.


Yours,
Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com (mmflint@aol.com)
www.michaelmoore.com (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1pY2hhZWxtb29yZS5jb20v)

[JohanLarson]

A co-worker, who's from Lithuania, never ceases to tell me how horrible America's Health Care system is.

All I can tell you is that a one-day herniated disk operation cost $40,000 of which $8000 had to come out of my own pocket. I was lucky that I had insurance.

Looking back, I don't know how I survived, financially.

[JohanLarson]

Have you noticed that the Republicans have been vewy, vewy quiet on this thread?

[ljhotboy]

I know someone who had a premature baby and had she not had good insurance she would have had to pay nearly a million dollars by the time she was able to take her baby home.

[metta]

a free weekend to the universal health care country of your choice!



Good news! "Sicko," after less than three weeks in national release, has become one of the top five grossing documentaries of all time! So, this coming weekend, the distributor is expanding the movie by opening it in nearly 500 new theaters in small cities all over the country (for a total of nearly 1,200 screens nationwide)! From Rapid City to Carson City, from Gettysburg to Pearl Harbor, from Juneau to Battle Creek -- they're all getting "Sicko" tomorrow (Friday). Scores of cities that never have a documentary come to their local theater will now be able to see this one. It's happening all thanks to you who live in the larger cities and have supported "Sicko" so strongly. It's led the studio to say, "Let's make more prints and ship them to Oshkosh (and Beaverton and Brattleboro and Sault Ste. Marie and...)." The entire country goes "Sicko" in less than 48 hours!

So, friends, this is it. This is the weekend to go see "Sicko" if you haven't seen it. I get a lot of letters from people saying they plan to "get around" to seeing it "soon." Well, soon is here! Trying to get theaters to give us screens when we are up against huge summer blockbusters is an almost impossible task. "Sicko" won't be around forever. And if you're waiting for the DVD, ask anyone who's seen "Sicko" -- this is a movie you want to see with a crowd of people in a theater.

So let's pack the movie houses this weekend! Send an email to everyone you know, call your friends and tell them, "It's 'Sicko' Night in America!"

And, to show my thanks to all of you who'll go see "Sicko" this weekend, I'm going to send one of you and a guest on a free weekend to the universal health care country of your choice! That's right. You'll get to pick one of the three industrialized countries featured in the movie where, if you get sick, you get help for free, no matter who you are. All you have to do is send us your ticket stub (make sure it says "Sicko" on it and has the name of the theater and this weekend's date on it -- Friday, Saturday or Sunday - July 20th, 21st, 22nd). Attach the stub to a piece of paper with your name, address, phone number and email and send it to: 'Sicko' Night in America, 888c 8th Avenue, Suite 443, New York, NY 10019. (Yes, you have to use that old 18th century device called the U.S. Postal Service, and it has to be postmarked on or by Tuesday, July 24th). First prize is a weekend in the city of your choice: Paris, London or Toronto. This includes airfare, hotel, meals and, most exciting, a representative from their fine universal health care system who will give you a personal tour so you can see how they treat their fellow citizens. You'll meet people who pay nothing for college and citizens who are in the fourth week of their six-week paid vacation. Oh, and you'll have time to see the Eiffel Tower, Big Ben or whatever they have in Toronto that is old and tall. (If you don't have a passport, we'll pay for that, too!)

Canadians who are reading this -- you're probably thinking, "Hey, what about us? Where do we get to go?" Quit complaining! You're already there! But just to make it up to you -- and to prove we don't hold it against you for smugly walking out of a hospital with the same amount of money in your wallet that you went in with -- we'll let you participate in the drawing, too.

Thanks again to everyone who has gone to see "Sicko." Take a friend or two this weekend and celebrate "'Sicko' Night in America."

Yours,

Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com
www.michaelmoore.com

[Shepherd 2]

Yes, the American medical system has problems. But it is still a great system. Many us have and want to exercise choices that are available to us daily and would not be in most of the world.

My daughter-in-law is a Physician's Assistant, and her work in medicine is very interesting,. We have some wonderfully gifted workers. Sadly though, some people fall through the cracks of the care and especially insurance coverage for a number of reasons. We do have a lot of hard work to do. Hopefully we will do it.:grrr:

[gsdx]

Sadly though, some people fall through the cracks of the care and especially insurance coverage for a number of reasons.

I don't think people are 'falling through the cracks' as much as the insurance agencies are opening chasms beneath them. I've heard insurance horror stories and read some of them here. I can't imagine paying into an insurance policy for years, suffering a tragedy, only to have the claim denied and the policy cancelled.

[metta]

Yes, the American medical system has problems. But it is still a great system. Many us have and want to exercise choices that are available to us daily and would not be in most of the world.

My daughter-in-law is a Physician's Assistant, and her work in medicine is very interesting,. We have some wonderfully gifted workers. Sadly though, some people fall through the cracks of the care and especially insurance coverage for a number of reasons. We do have a lot of hard work to do. Hopefully we will do it.:grrr:

Please go see the movie. The whole American system is designed wrong. It needs to be changed NOW. dkonfrost has only been a student nurse for a few weeks and he has already seen the pain and suffering people go through because of the private insurance system. People should not have to fight for basic care. Please go see the movie.

[ComNavFdgPk]

This has been a very interesting and civil forum, thus far. Hopefully, my addition won't change that! :badgrin:

There is one facet of this debate that I haven't seen mentioned here, yet. By law, the HMOs are required to show a profit. While it would be nice if all the medical procedures deemed necessary by MDs were automatically covered, I think that would pretty much throw profit out the window. We need a system where private industry is not involved and the goal is proper care, NOT profit!

[metta]

This has been a very interesting and civil forum, thus far. Hopefully, my addition won't change that! :badgrin:

There is one facet of this debate that I haven't seen mentioned here, yet. By law, the HMOs are required to show a profit. While it would be nice if all the medical procedures deemed necessary by MDs were automatically covered, I think that would pretty much throw profit out the window. We need a system where private industry is not involved and the goal is proper care, NOT profit!


I totally agree with you. That is one of the critical parts of the issue. The profit must be taken out of the equation. It is unethical for it to be there.

[gsdx]

There is one facet of this debate that I haven't seen mentioned here, yet. By law, the HMOs are required to show a profit.

I've not heard this before. At the risk of sounding like an idiot, who made up that law?

[metta]

I've not heard this before. At the risk of sounding like an idiot, who made up that law?

I was not aware of that law either. That explains why I was not able to find any non-profit health care companies when I was looking for them a few weeks ago. I bet ya it is the HMO lobby groups that pushed for that...just a guess. But who else would want such a stupid law.

[ComNavFdgPk]

I've not heard this before. At the risk of sounding like an idiot, who made up that law?

I'm not exactly certain where I got that information. It has something to do with some federal law about health insurance companies that accept Medicare as partial payment for services. I'll scrounge around and see if I can find the exact citation.

[metta]

Interview with Dr. Terry Bennett - Durham NH


3Z55IHRsMQs

[drhladnjak]

Not for profit HMOs not only definitely can exist, but there are quite a few of them around. The largest and best known is Kaiser-Permanente (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Permanente).

For profit HMOs generally do have a legal obligation to make money in so far as publicly held companies have a duty to their shareholders to earn as much profit as legally possible. Technically, if the leadership of the corporation does something which is not in its best interest financially, the leadership can be sued by the shareholders. In practice, they have to do something pretty egregious for that to happen though.

[metta]

Not for profit HMOs not only definitely can exist, but there are quite a few of them around. The largest and best known is Kaiser-Permanente (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Permanente).

For profit HMOs generally do have a legal obligation to make money in so far as publicly held companies have a duty to their shareholders to earn as much profit as legally possible. Technically, if the leadership of the corporation does something which is not in its best interest financially, the leadership can be sued by the shareholders. In practice, they have to do something pretty egregious for that to happen though.

I did not realize that Kaiser was non-profit. That company is not acceptable either. I guess we just need to push for Universal care. If you have Kaiser and are taken to a hospital that is not Kaiser, you will not be taken care of until you get transfered to their hospital. In the mean time, the patient can just lay there in agony. They have just as much beauracracy as the private companies. Dkonfrost heard a pacient screaming in pain and no one would do anything because the insurance company, I think that it was Kaiser, would not cover that hospital.

[Ram]

Interesting discussion. I was just wondering have you all managed to find the google link to the Sicko movie? I can't seem to locate it. Thx.. I don't wish waste 8 bucks. ;)

[Kennyworth]

I saw the movie in Seattle last week,and found it both interesting and disturbing.

Luck O' the Irish , hit it right on the head on many points in his post , and MM drove it home in the movie...

I think it 's disgusting that anyone should go without decent healthcare in this country..We're the ONLY industrialized nation that doesn't have a national health plan for all it's citizens..

I think the movie also presents a pretty damn good case for the need for campaign finance reform..

As long as the insurance companies have the politicians in their pockets...bought and paid for, it's unlikely that they will ever get past lip service when it comes to addressing the health care crisis this country is now in..

I won't hijack the thread with my views on publicly funded elections , but I will say this ...Follow the money..

It can be traced back to almost all our societal ill's , from the energy crisis, the shameful state of healthcare,education,our military entanglements abroad..

As long as corporations are allowed to write the legislation , the interests of the average citizen will always take a back seat ,while lawmakers tend to the needs of those who finance their campaigns...

[metta]

I saw the movie in Seattle last week,and found it both interesting and disturbing.

Luck O' the Irish , hit it right on the head on many points in his post , and MM drove it home in the movie...

I think it 's disgusting that anyone should go without decent healthcare in this country..We're the ONLY industrialized nation that doesn't have a national health plan for all it's citizens..

I think the movie also presents a pretty damn good case for the need for campaign finance reform..

As long as the insurance companies have the politicians in their pockets...bought and paid for, it's unlikely that they will ever get past lip service when it comes to addressing the health care crisis this country is now in..

I won't hijack the thread with my views on publicly funded elections , but I will say this ...Follow the money..

It can be traced back to almost all our societal ill's , from the energy crisis, the shameful state of healthcare,education,our military entanglements abroad..

As long as corporations are allowed to write the legislation , the interests of the average citizen will always take a back seat ,while lawmakers tend to the needs of those who finance their campaigns...

Feel free to hijack! It is all realated. I agree with every point that you made. :)




Breaking: Michael Moore will Live Chat on C&L Sunday 4-5PM ET (http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/21/breaking-michael-moore-will-live-chat-on-cl-sunday-4-5pm-et/)
By: John Amato on Saturday, July 21st, 2007 at 7:14 PM - PDT digg_url = 'http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/21/breaking-michael-moore-will-live-chat-on-cl-sunday-4-5pm-et/'; digg_title = 'Breaking: Michael Moore will Live Chat on C&L Sunday 4-5PM ET'; digg_skin = "compact";

http://static.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/michaelmoore.jpg (http://static.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/michaelmoore.jpg)Michael Moore will be joining C&L for a Sunday afternoon chat about his new movie “Sicko (http://michaelmoore.com/)” and whatever else comes up in the comment thread. The movie has opened in about 500 new (http://michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=218) cities across the country this weekend and is the # 5 grossin (http://blogs.nypost.com/movies/archives/2007/07/sicko_healthier.html)g documentary (http://blogs.nypost.com/movies/archives/2007/07/sicko_healthier.html) of all time so far……
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/21/breaking-michael-moore-will-live-chat-on-cl-sunday-4-5pm-et/

[ComNavFdgPk]

Not for profit HMOs not only definitely can exist, but there are quite a few of them around. The largest and best known is Kaiser-Permanente (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Permanente).

For profit HMOs generally do have a legal obligation to make money in so far as publicly held companies have a duty to their shareholders to earn as much profit as legally possible. Technically, if the leadership of the corporation does something which is not in its best interest financially, the leadership can be sued by the shareholders. In practice, they have to do something pretty egregious for that to happen though.

Maybe I was thinking about insurance companies, not specifically health-insurance companies! !oops!

[metta]

Steelworker ignites Healthcare Debate - Must See!
Category: News and Politics


In response to a question about Edwards and the other candidates on healthcare Steve said they are "all talking the talk but not walking the walk." He doesn't like the answer of letting private corporations continue to take care of our healthcare and went on to say that one democratic candidate (referring to Obama) made the statement we have to invite health insurance companies to the table. As Steve points out they have already been at the table for the past 35 years and eating our lunch.

Hardball: Interview with Steve Skvara
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5SSyS5n6U4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5SSyS5n6U4)

C5SSyS5n6U4



Original footage followed by John Edward's response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUzdDORJwu4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUzdDORJwu4)

bUzdDORJwu4



When Edwards and others say they are for Universal Healthcare but then don't support the solution (SINGLE PAYER) to remove the insurance industry it's nothing more than an empty campaign slogan. Steve wants action from them but knows it's up to US to make it happen.

[Matthew-]

As a Canadian, I will say that our system is really, really bad, yet Moore seems to say in the movie its all good...:confused:

[Mikami]

As a Canadian, I will say that our system is really, really bad, yet Moore seems to say in the movie its all good...:confused:

It's just all to make the points he is making seem more right.

[Matthew-]

You are right, mikami.

[PreTTy PeTe]

As a Canadian, I will say that our system is really, really bad, yet Moore seems to say in the movie its all good...:confused:

rather then make a blanket statement about the canadian health care

tell us why you think its "really really bad"
I'm curious

btw i think canadian health is fantastic it saved my life
and i didn't pay a dime for it

i think i cost them over a million dollars
but now i'm proud to pay my taxes i am
every canadian is worth the care we get

every canadian

[Matthew-]

Pretty Pete, I know a Canadian who was injured in the USA. He needed an operation. The USA were ready to operate him on the spot, but he ask to come back to Canada (province of Quebec) to be with his family. His wish was granted, but in Canada, he had to wait one week before he was able to be attended to. He spent all that time on a stretcher in the geriatric section. The worst part is that every day, they were saying they would operate him on that day, only to have the operation push back from day to day... Anyway, he and his family were not impressed. Maybe I got influenced from their comments, but it looked really bad the way they explained it...

[PreTTy PeTe]

^your friend is a fool

he should have been operated in the usa
it's not a third world country you know




don't blame the canadian health care for this idiots problems

[backpacker]

Of course the health system is no where near as bad as the movie makes it looks. The movie is a propaganda piece, so take it for what it's worth. The reality is that most people without health insurance can afford it, but choose not to buy it. Sure they complain they can't afford it, but drive new cars and keep Starbucks in business. I pay less than $5 per day for health insurance. About the cost of a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Given that most people who don't have health care are far younger then me, they would pay even less. For people in their 20's, it would probably be around $3 per day. This assumes that they take out insurance while they are healthy. If they wait until they have a major problem, the rates will be much higher and the major problem probably won't be covered at all.

With all that said, I think our health care system needs a major overhaul. We have great quality of care, but we do pay far too much for it. The shear administrative cost of insurance is ridiculous. I'm a big supporter of universal health care. I would like to see everyone have complete access to preventative health care (if you're sick, you can already get health care even if you can't afford it). The problem right now is that people who can actually afford health and don't buy insurance, can often lose everything they have if a major illness occurs. These people are gambling; some will be winners and some losers.

I have a friend who went without health insurance for a long time. He and his wife could afford it, but just thought it was too expensive. His wife finally decided that they had to have it and they obtained insurance. Not two months later he became ill and had to have surgery. Without the insurance, they would be in debt for years to come or be forces to sell their house.

[PreTTy PeTe]

health care is a right.
people should not die because they can''t afford heath care.

[backpacker]

^your friend is a fool

he should have been operated in the usa
it's not a third world country you know




don't blame the canadian health care for this idiots problems

Would the Canadian health care have covered the surgery in the US? Does it cover emergency situations when traveling outside Canada? This obviously wasn't an emergency if it could wait a week. My guess is that the cost may have had something to do with his decision to return to Canada as well. I do know that rich Canadians often come to the US for health care due to the high quality of care, so I doubt he was really worried about the quality of care.

My family is from Canada. The complaints my relatives relay about the Canadian system leaves a lot to be desired. The kind of stuff that would result in lawsuits in the US. I'm all for universal health care, but I sure don't want it to work like the Canadian system.

[PreTTy PeTe]

Would the Canadian health care have covered the surgery in the US? Does it cover emergency situations when traveling outside Canada? This obviously wasn't an emergency if it could wait a week. My guess is that the cost may have had something to do with his decision to return to Canada as well. I do know that rich Canadians often come to the US for health care due to the high quality of care, so I doubt he was really worried about the quality of care.

My family is from Canada. The complaints my relatives relay about the Canadian system leaves a lot to be desired. The kind of stuff that would result in lawsuits in the US. I'm all for universal health care, but I sure don't want it to work like the Canadian system.

you don't get it do you

i can walk into a doctors office and not pay a thing
and we have best doctors in north america

my doctor be fantastic
he is

whatever he does for me i don't pay a thing....

[ronboy]

you don't get it do you

i can walk into a doctors office and not pay a thing
and we have best doctors in north america

my doctor be fantastic
he is

whatever he does for me i don't pay a thing....

Sir Ron ponders to himself.....

hmmmmmm.....If I marry PeTe, and move to TO, I get free health care too. Cool! :D

PeTe...marry me!!! (hehehehe!)

:jk: you be a free spirit...Sir Ron can't tie you down...that's why he loves PreTTy PeTe a lot!!!!! (and I'll grudgingly continue to pay for my own health insurance)

[Qixote]

The health care "system" if it can be called that, works just fine for those who (a) have a job with benefits or (b) can afford it.
Even then it has enough problems. Having insurance doesn't guarantee anything. I've read enough stories about people with good jobs and insurance that still go bankrupt with medical expenses.

I've watched Sicko. Very well presented, although none of it was news to me. I definitely favor a national healthcare plan. Even though I am at odds with my brother who works for a large insurance company and he thinks he is an expert about everything.

I'm one of those who sees national healthcare as something that should be just another civil service such as fire and police protection. If people think this is socialism, then they would be surprised to know that the U.S. has been socialistic since the first firehouse was started.

[ryankeith]

Many excellent comments on this thread, but I think Riverrick nails an important point here.

Yes there is a price...he is right...despite how much health care costs in America...there is this idea that the more you pay the better care you get...we all know thats bullshit. Just because you pay more doesn't mean you get a better, more quality outcome.

In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

[backpacker]

you don't get it do you

i can walk into a doctors office and not pay a thing
and we have best doctors in north america

my doctor be fantastic
he is

whatever he does for me i don't pay a thing....

I'm glad you are very happy with your doctor, but many Canadians are not. The experts also beg to differ with you on Canada having the best doctors. The best doctors are in the US where they can make a lot more money.

My grandmother had been in good health until she was 90. She developed a problem that they wouldn't do surgery on because she was 90 and the system decided 90 year olds shouldn't get that type of surgery. They said if she was 80, they would do the surgery. There were no issues with her health being a risk factor. The doctors flat out told us that if she lived in the US, she would get the surgery. The failure to treat that problem let to complications and shortened her life and her quality of life. The Canadian health care system is notorious for denying benefits to senior citizens. When that happens, the people who can afford it come to the US for treatment. There have been many investigative reports on it.

I'm all for the US putting a universal health care system in place, but it has to provide at least the level of care we get right now. The Canadian system exceeds that in some areas, but falls miserably short in many important areas. I want to know that if there is a surgery I need, I'll get it.

I'm sure I'm going to convince you of the pitfalls of the Canadian system and you're not going to convince me that it is a great system. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

[metta]

Message to Barack Obama
lLNTB-4t4Ns

Message to Hillary Clinton
bz9cm613Ox8

Message to John Edwards
XNJTxRf6x3Q

[Matthew-]

^your friend is a fool

he should have been operated in the usa
it's not a third world country you know



Personnally, I would have chosen to be operated in the USA also... But I guess it was his decision... This being said, he may have took a bad decision there, but hes not a fool. He just make one mistake, like we all do.

[drhladnjak]

No healthcare system is perfect, including the Canadian system. However, the results of the American system (life expectancy, infant mortality and other measures of health outcomes) are really not that great for how much we pay. Canadians or Britons may be on waiting lists for certain kinds of surgeries, but they live longer and pay less for healthcare.

[metta]

Personnally, I would have chosen to be operated in the USA also... But I guess it was his decision... This being said, he may have took a bad decision there, but hes not a fool. He just make one mistake, like we all do.

The problem with that is that it may have bankrupted them having care in the US while they don't have to pay anything else in their own country. There have been studies done in the US which show that millions of american go without basic care because of the costs of it. It is the most common reason to go bankrupt. People lose their life assets. The idea of retirement in the US is a joke if you ever get sick and don't have at least $5-20 million in assets, or a government health care plan. This results in people getting treated later, more serious, and more expensive than need be. The health care companies like it this way. It saves them money.

[PreTTy PeTe]

My grandmother had been in good health until she was 90. She developed a problem that they wouldn't do surgery on because she was 90 and the system decided 90 year olds shouldn't get that type of surgery. They said if she was 80, they would do the surgery. There were no issues with her health being a risk factor. The doctors flat out told us that if she lived in the US, she would get the surgery. The failure to treat that problem let to complications and shortened her life and her quality of life. The Canadian health care system is notorious for denying benefits to senior citizens. When that happens, the people who can afford it come to the US for treatment. There have been many investigative reports on it.


ok and thinking a ninety year old should have an operation is stupid
really stupid
shortened her life??
not being mean here but being realistic..............
how long did you expect her too live


i signed DNRs for both my parents
hardest thing i ever did
it was
but i was being realistic

now why would anybody from Atlanta complain of the canadian health care system.

it works
it works
it fucking works

[metta]

Civil Disobedience For Universal Healthcare!!
i5G8Re49EOw



http://groups.myspace.com/TrueUniversalHealthCare4ALL




Keep it up Pretty! Go Pretty! Go Pretty! Go! (!)(!)(!)

[Finn]

Yes, the American medical system has problems. But it is still a great system. :grrr:


Any system that allows human beings to die because they lack the proper insurance could hardly be called great.

[frankfrank]

Wow, did I get lucky last night or what? SICKO is, like, the one really "big movie" that I wanted to be sure I'd see this year. Where I live, I'm sure that it wasn't screened within fifty miles of me (Galesburg would be closest), so I knew I'd have to travel to see it. I was sure it would be hard to "find" by now. I strongly preferred to see it on a public screen.

I'm passing through Minneapolis-Saint Paul on my way to places far more distant. I was having a hard time making any plans for Monday night come together, so I was cruising Lake Street looking for a copy of City Pages (the local entertainment weekly freebie), having no luck. Eventually I found a bank of about 15 newspaper boxes and STILL none were City Pages, then I noticed this place I was walking by had newspapers in the window, and I went in. I noticed this place was a theater. I look at what's playing, and one of then was SICKO. Starting right now. I got my ticket, and as I walked in, the studio logo and movie started even before I sat down.

So I finally got to watch SICKO! Certainly something that will give one pause, even if Michael Moore's presentation DOES have an "agenda" - it's certainly very much based on prevailing facts.

I caught up with a contact immediately after the movie ended, and I spent $870 with him on stock (inventory) that I can use.

I had originally hoped to again meet up with a JUB'er while here, but he's literally right in the epicenter of moving. Not good timing for that, but it's remarkable how perfectly the "replacement plans" came together.

Yeah, even the fact that I've given as much as a THOUGHT of possibly leaving the U.S., shows how serious the repurcussions of our health-care system could be. Leaving the U.S. would hurt tremendously, but who knows that I might be forced to do so as a health care refugee? Many countries, even if I pay everything out of my own pocket, a major/chronic problem could cost $10,000's OR MORE below what it would cost in the U.S. (because of all the deductibles and denials on my poor insurance).

Healthcare should be a HUMAN RIGHT. End of story.

[metta]

Bush Administration push for privatization may have helped create Walter Reed ’disaster’
Category: News and Politics (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.viewCategory&FriendID=144312962&BlogCategoryID=17)

http://rawstory.com/images/other/rawsmaller2.gif (http://rawstory.com/)
Bush Administration push for privatization may have helped create Walter Reed 'disaster'

03/03/2007 @ 1:23 pm

Filed by Ron Brynaert
The Bush Administration's drive for privatization may be responsible for the "deplorable" outpatient care for soldiers at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, according to a top Democratic Congressman investigating the scandal, which has already led to the resignation of the Secretary of the US Army.
A five-year, $120 million contract awarded to a firm run by a former executive from Halliburton – a multi-national corporation where Vice President Dick Cheney once served as CEO – will be probed at a Subcommittee on National Security and Foreign Affairs hearing scheduled for Monday.
A letter (http://oversight.house.gov/Documents/20070302131606-66371.pdf) sent by Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA), chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, to Major General George W. Weightman, the former commander at Walter Reed, asks him to "address the implications of a memorandum from Garrison Commander Peter Garibaldi sent through you to Colonel Daryl Spencer, the Assistant Chief of Staff for Resource Management with the U.S. Army Medical Command" in order to better prepare himself for his testimony at the hearing.
"This memorandum, which we understand was written in September 2006, describes how the Army's decision to privatize support services at Walter Reed Army Medical Center was causing an exodus of 'highly skilled and experienced personnel,'" Waxman's letter continues. "As a result, according to the memorandum, 'WRAMC Base Operations and patient care services are at risk of mission failure.'"
Waxman's letter states that "several sources have corroborated key portions of the memorandum."
"We have learned that in January 2006, Walter Reed awarded a five-year $120 million contract to a company called IAP Worldwide Services for base operations support services, including facilities management," Waxman continues. "IAP is one of the companies that experienced problems delivering ice during the response to Hurricane Katrina."
Waxman notes that IAP "is led by Al Neffgen, a former senior Halliburton official who testified before our Committee in July 2004 in defense of Halliburton's exorbitant charges for fuel delivery and troop support in Iraq."
Before the contract, over 300 federal employees provided facilities management services at Walter Reed, according to the memorandum, but that number dropped to less than 60 the day before IAP took over.
"Yet instead of hiring additional personnel, IAP apparently replaced the remaining 60 federal employees with only 50 IAP personnel," Waxman writes.
Waxman adds that "the conditions that have been described are disgraceful," and that the Oversight Committee will "investigate what led to the breakdown in services."
"It would be reprehensible if the deplorable conditions were caused or aggravated by an ideological committment to privatized government services regardless of the costs to taxpayers and the consequences for wounded soldier," Waxman writes, alluding to the Bush Administration's push for privatization.
A year ago, the Government Accountability Office "dismissed a protest filed on behalf of employees at the Army's Walter Reed Medical Center, ruling that the employee group had no standing to challenge the outcome of a public-private job competition initiated prior to January 2005," GovExec.com reported (http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=33462&ref=rellink).
"The American Federation of Government Employees, which provided funding to back the protest, said the impetus to appeal came from Walter Reed managers who were disappointed to see how the competition process played out," Jenny Mandel reported in February of 2006. "While the initial employee bid was $7 million less than that of IAP Worldwide Services, a mid-stream solicitation change resulted in a recalculation of the bids by all parties and in IAP's bid coming in $7 million lower, said John Threlkeld, a lobbyist for AFGE."
The article continues, "Threlkeld said the process for recalculating the employee bid was flawed, resulting in the inflation of the estimate that rendered it uncompetitive with IAP's bid."
On Saturday, the Army Times (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/03/Weightmansubpoena/) revealed that the Garibaldi memorandum cited by Waxman states that "the push to privatize support services there accelerated under President Bush's 'competitive sourcing' initiative, which was launched in 2002."
Excerpts from Army Times article:


The letter said the Defense Department "systemically" tried to replace federal workers at Walter Reed with private companies for facilities management, patient care and guard duty – a process that began in 2000.
"But the push to privatize support services there accelerated under President Bush's 'competitive sourcing' initiative, which was launched in 2002," the letter states.
During the year between awarding the contract to IAP and when the company started, "skilled government workers apparently began leaving Walter Reed in droves," the letter states. "The memorandum also indicates that officials at the highest levels of Walter Reed and the U.S. Army Medical Command were informed about the dangers of privatization, but appeared to do little to prevent them."
The memo signed by Garibaldi requests more federal employees because the hospital mission had grown "significantly" during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It states that medical command did not concur with their request for more people.
"Without favorable consideration of these requests," Garibaldi wrote, "[Walter Reed Army Medical Center] Base Operations and patient care services are at risk of mission failure."

[metta]

FULL ARMY TIMES ARTICLE CAN BE READ AT THIS LINK (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/03/Weightmansubpoena/)
Army Times


Army Times
Committee subpoenas former Walter Reed chief

By Kelly Kennedy - Staff writer
Posted : Saturday Mar 3, 2007
Top of Form
The Committee on Oversight and Government Reform has subpoenaed Maj. Gen. George Weightman, who was fired as head of Walter Reed Army Medical Center, after Army officials refused to allow him to testify before the committee Monday.
Committee Chairman Henry Waxman and subcommittee Chairman John Tierney asked Weightman to testify about an internal memo that showed privatization of services at Walter Reed could put "patient care services… at risk of mission failure."
But Army officials refused to allow Weightman to appear before the committee after he was relieved of command.
"The Army was unable to provide a satisfactory explanation for the decision to prevent General Weightman from testifying," committee members said in a statement today.
The committee wants to learn more about a letter written in September by Garrison Commander Peter Garibaldi to Weightman.
The memorandum "describes how the Army's decision to privatize support services at Walter Reed Army Medical Center was causing an exodus of 'highly skilled and experienced personnel,'" the committee's letter states. "According to multiple sources, the decision to privatize support services at Walter Reed led to a precipitous drop in support personnel at Walter Reed."
The letter said Walter Reed also awarded a five-year, $120-million contract to IAP Worldwide Services, which is run by Al Neffgen, a former senior Halliburton official.
They also found that more than 300 federal employees providing facilities management services at Walter Reed had drooped to fewer than 60 by Feb. 3, 2007, the day before IAP took over facilities management. IAP replaced the remaining 60 employees with only 50 private workers.
"The conditions that have been described at Walter Reed are disgraceful," the letter states. "Part of our mission on the Oversight Committee is to investigate what led to the breakdown in services. It would be reprehensible if the deplorable conditions were caused or aggravated by an ideological commitment to privatize government services regardless of the costs to taxpayers and the consequences for wounded soldiers."
The letter said the Defense Department "systemically" tried to replace federal workers at Walter Reed with private companies for facilities management, patient care and guard duty – a process that began in 2000.
"But the push to privatize support services there accelerated under President Bush's 'competitive sourcing' initiative, which was launched in 2002," the letter states.
During the year between awarding the contract to IAP and when the company started, "skilled government workers apparently began leaving Walter Reed in droves," the letter states. "The memorandum also indicates that officials at the highest levels of Walter Reed and the U.S. Army Medical Command were informed about the dangers of privatization, but appeared to do little to prevent them."
The memo signed by Garibaldi requests more federal employees because the hospital mission had grown "significantly" during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It states that medical command did not concur with their request for more people.
"Without favorable consideration of these requests," Garibaldi wrote, "[Walter Reed Army Medical Center] Base Operations and patient care services are at risk of mission failure."

[metta]

Health Insurance Executive favors a Single-Payer system (Medicare and systems in other countries) and explains why private insurance doesn't work for healthcare.

We All Need Healthcare; Who Needs "Insurance"?
By Georganne Chapin, JD, MPhil, President and CEO, Hudson Health Plan

I am a health insurance and managed care executive so you may find
this editorial a bit strange. I believe that the way to fix our
healthcare system is to stop relying on insurance and focus instead
on healthcare.

So, what's wrong with health insurance?

Well, first, it's temporary. This may work for auto policies, but not
for human health.

Second, health insurance is mostly contingent on where you live and
whom you work for. It's easy to transfer car insurance, but not
health insurance.

Finally, insurance companies make more money by minimizing pay-outs
than by keeping people healthy. Human beings -- who need preventive
care, who have babies, who may lack living wages and job security,
and who get older--find the house rules stacked against them.

Plans in Massachusetts, California, and soon New York propose to
strew the same old red tape over even more people. Members of the
same family could end up with separate policies, with different
benefits and different expiration dates. This will make it even
harder for doctors and hospitals to figure out whom to bill, which
services are covered, and - worst of all - whether coverage will last
long enough to complete treatment for a sick patient.

Other developed nations have universal healthcare, not "insurance."
They give healthcare to everybody, they spend less, and they are
healthier for it.

But, we have an example of success in this country, too. It's called
Medicare. And while flawed, Medicare meets the most important
criteria for a universal healthcare system: it's permanent, it's
portable, and it's simple and inexpensive to administer.

The health insurance model is flawed because it depends on people
falling between the cracks after they pay their premiums and before
they collect their "benefits." Rather than insurance, providing
healthcare to everyone would cost less and deliver more in the long run.

http://medgenmed.medscape.com/viewarticle/559758 (http://medgenmed.medscape.com/viewarticle/559758)

[metta]

Uninsured Swells 2.2 Million to 47 Million - 15,000 Doctors say Single-Payer is only solution.

Category: News and Politics (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.viewCategory&FriendID=144312962&BlogCategoryID=17)


Today, the Census Bureau released the latest data on the number of Americans without health insurance: in 2006, the number of uninsured rose to 47 million. The ranks of the uninsured have grown 8.6 million since 2000--an increase of 22 percent.

The number of uninsured children rose to 8.7 million. If not for coverage through Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), even more children would be without coverage. Nearly all uninsured adults are employed, and are increasingly likely to be in middle-class families.


Middle-Class Americans Join Ranks of Uninsured in 2006 as Private Coverage Shrinks

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 28, 2007
Contacts:
Steffie Woolhandler, M.D. (617) 312-2766
Quentin Young, MD (312) 782-6006
Don McCanne, M.D. (949) 493-3714
Number of Uninsured Swells 2.2 Million to 47 Million

15,000 Doctors: "Single Payer National Health Insurance is the Only Solution"

CHICAGO — The U.S. Census Bureau released data today showing that the number of uninsured Americans jumped by 2.2 million in 2006 to 47.0 million people, with nearly all the increase (2.03 million) concentrated among middle-class Americans earning over $50,000 per year, according to an analysis by Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP). Strikingly, 1.4 million of the newly uninsured were in families making over $75,000 per year. An additional 600,000 were in families earning $50,000 to $75,000 per year. (The median household income in 2006 was $48,200).
"Middle income Americans are now experiencing the human suffering that comes with being uninsured. It makes any illness a potential economic and social catastrophe," said Dr. Steffie Woolhandler, co-founder of Physicians for a National Health Program and Associate Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School.
Physicians for a National Health Program also noted the following:

1- The 2.18 million rise in the number of uninsured is the biggest jump reported by the Census Bureau since 1992.

2 - There are now more uninsured in the U.S. — 47.0 million — than at any time since passage of Medicare/Medicaid in the mid-1960's.

3 - 93% of the increase is among middle and high income families:

Of the 2.18 million increase:

1.398 million (64% of the increase) was in >$75k family income
An additional 633,000 (29% of the increase) was among $50-$75k group

Among full time workers, the number of uninsured increased by 1.230 million (56.4% of the increase). 4 - In Massachusetts, often cited as a model for health reform, the number of uninsured increased from 583,000 in 2005 (9.2 percent) to 657,000 in 2006 (10.4 percent of the population).

5 - The divergence between poverty and uninsurance is relatively new and striking. Until recently, as poverty went down uninsurance fell. That has changed.
6 - The number of uninsured children has fallen only 17 percent since SCHIP was enacted in 1997 from 10.74 million (adjusted to be comparable to current figures) to 8.66 million. The number of uninsured children rose by 611,000 between 2005 and 2006.
The doctors' group said that the only solution to the rising number of uninsured and underinsured is a single-payer national health insurance program, publicly financed but delivered by private doctors and hospitals. Such a program could save more than $400 billion annually in administrative waste, enough to provide high-quality coverage to all and halt the erosion of the current private system.
"We can no longer afford the waste and inefficiency, the high overhead and outrageous executive salaries of the private insurance industry" said Dr. Don McCanne, senior health policy fellow for PNHP. "Only reforms that end our reliance on defective private coverage and assure guaranteed coverage for all will work."
"The experience of other industrialized nations teaches us that high-quality, comprehensive care can be provided to all our citizens," said Dr. Quentin Young, National Coordinator of Physicians for a National Health Program. "A single-payer national health insurance system has emerged as only solution to the nation's health system debacle."


http://www.commondreams.org/news2007/0828-06.htm

[frankfrank]

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=187212

[jdb2001]

My family is finding out just how inhumane and cold the health care system is. My aunt has been in and out of the hospital for the last six months because she needs a liver transplant. She had appointments with the Cle